Men that aren't Creepers

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Men that aren't Creepers

Post by adamhunter1223 on Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:22 pm

I came here and posted this at the request of Jess (kleenstar?). I mentioned in a DNL article about him teaming up with Sex Nerd Sandra (article here: http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2014/10/dr-nerdlove-sex-nerd-sandra-two-podcasts-collide/#IDComment885621759) that I didn't want to listen to the podcast because the podcast was about men being creepy and I didn't want the inevitable guilt-by-association that I'm sure more people than just me feel when they hear yet another story about some guy creeping on a woman, or, worse, seeing it yourself.

Therefore, at Jess' suggestion, I want to start a forum thread for stories about guys NOT being creepers. So post away folks.

P.S. This isn't about guys playing White Knight or anything like that, I want this to be a thread where you can come and feel good about sharing a planet with males, not one where you leave disgustedly wondering if it would be at all possible to become a hermit and never interact with another human being for the rest of your life.

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Re: Men that aren't Creepers

Post by Gentleman Johnny on Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:07 am

Well, I like to think that 99% of my life involves men (myself included) not being creepy. Is there a particular context you're interested in? Think about it this way, stories of guys being creepy get told because they're ot the norm and not acceptable.

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Re: Men that aren't Creepers

Post by reboot on Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:01 am

Gentleman Johnny wrote:Well, I like to think that 99% of my life involves men (myself included) not being creepy. Is there a particular context you're interested in? Think about it this way, stories of guys being creepy get told because they're ot the norm and not acceptable.

Same same. I know a couple of hundred of not creepy men and have probably had a million or so not creepy interactions in my day to day life, so if you could narrow it down to something more specific that would be great.
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Re: Men that aren't Creepers

Post by Wondering on Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:32 am

Yeah, I'm having a hard time thinking up an incident with a non-creepy man just because almost all my interactions with men are non-creepy, so they don't stand out.

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Re: Men that aren't Creepers

Post by eselle28 on Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:52 am

I'll try to get a bit more specific, since I'm guessing "that's the background noise" isn't what someone who's feeling triggered by stories of men behaving badly is looking for:

- The dudes in my gaming guild are really, really not creepy. They're feminist or feminist-friendly, respect women as people rather than sex objects, didn't put up with the erroneous admission of a guy who did fit the creeper mode, and are good about calling out younger members (our oldest member is the parent of our youngest) when they make unfortunate remarks out of thoughtlessness rather than malice (which means that the women of the group don't have to be in charge of that).

- Although I'm sometimes treated in biased ways at work by men outside my organization, the specific men who are my coworkers are very non-creepy (sometimes they're kind of weird, but that's another post). I actually hadn't noticed the lack of creeping until an extended family member asked whether I felt intimidated or threatened working at such a male-dominated company, and saw that she was surprised when I said that the staff wasn't tilted all that far in terms of men, that Old Boss (who died awhile ago) wouldn't have put up with that and that New Boss wouldn't either.
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Re: Men that aren't Creepers

Post by Lemminkainen on Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:53 am

kleenestar originally proposed "Men who are awesome." Maybe that would work better?

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Re: Men that aren't Creepers

Post by eselle28 on Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:57 am

Lemminkainen wrote:kleenestar originally proposed "Men who are awesome."  Maybe that would work better?

I think that might be a better guideline for people who are struggling to think of examples! It's a lot easier to think of people who stand out as being great than for people who stand out for the absence of something awful.
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Re: Men that aren't Creepers

Post by Gentleman Johnny on Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:18 am

eselle28 wrote:
- The dudes in my gaming guild are really, really not creepy. They're feminist or feminist-friendly, respect women as people rather than sex objects, didn't put up with the erroneous admission of a guy who did fit the creeper mode, and are good about calling out younger members (our oldest member is the parent of our youngest) when they make unfortunate remarks out of thoughtlessness rather than malice (which means that the women of the group don't have to be in charge of that).

I just came back from five days in the desert with a dozen burlesque dancers at an event of nearly 2,000. The ratio is probably 2:1 male:female. Everyone was very complimentary of the show and none of the ladies got creeped on. Mind you, I had maps with "safe camps" of people we knew in the event that there was trouble but no one ever needed them.
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Re: Men that aren't Creepers

Post by BasedBuzzed on Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:44 am

>inevitable guilt-by-association

Is any amount of good guy stories going to change this? What is the source of this anxiety, if I may ask? I've got plenty of anecdotes of people doing the right thing(ie, following the script that avoids all the pitfalls in situations that could have creeped out gals easily), but such a thing can be mostly offset by the fact that it's easy to attribute creepy motives or think of someone who would be creeped out due to the precisely that course of action if you're in an ashamed-of-my-gender mode.

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Re: Men that aren't Creepers

Post by physicsnerd on Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:48 am

Within online dating context, Not Creepy Men:

The very pleasant man who kept up a constant level of conversation consistent with my replies. He was not pushy, fully read my profile, and kept up banter while revealing details about himself AND asking relevant questions about me. We didn't meet in person because he lived too far away.

There was a man who was 15 years older than me, and outside my stated range. However, he complimented me and stated I piqued his interest based on one of my hobbies and my field of study and asked some questions about that. He asked if my age range was strict or flexible, I replied that it was strict, wished him luck, thanked him for the compliment, and that was that.

There was also someone my age who kept up the conversation and had similar interests. He showed me photos of what he baked, for instance, and the reason I never met him was because he suddenly dropped off on messaging and deactivated his account, which I hope means he found somebody.

They stick out because even though I ultimately had to say 'no' (the third said 'no' to me), I really, truly wished that everything would work out for them. There was rejection, but no feelings of creepiness.

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Re: Men that aren't Creepers

Post by kleenestar on Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:06 am

I had a wonderful conversation last night with one of my very favorite men. He is having a tough time because he just moved away from his girlfriend for school, and they're both struggling with the long-distance thing, and school is tough, and everything is just landing on him all at once. I can't go into a ton of detail because it's his life, not mine, but I loved how honest and vulnerable and straightforward he was about the things he's going through. He has the gift of talking about things that are hard without either self-pity or laying blame, and that made it really easy for me to be a good friend to him in a tough time.

This story came to mind because I know a lot of guys here struggle with vulnerability, so it really leaped out to me how courageous his vulnerability was, and how much it made me love and respect him.
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Re: Men that aren't Creepers

Post by Enail on Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:04 pm

A friend of mine who's been really great responding to some Big News of mine. He's doing just the right balance of understanding it's a big thing, not making a Big Thing about it, sincerely offering help and acting in a considerate way without me needing to ask, and switching subject to lighter things. Awesomeness!
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Re: Men that aren't Creepers

Post by eselle28 on Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:02 am

My bestest buddy, who's also one of the dudes in my gaming guild, listened patiently and fully affirmed my wrath at today's transportation struggles. Then, just coincidentally, for no reason whatsoever, happened to be in the mood to tour some WotLK dungeons that were just the right level for the character I'm leveling, so of course it makes sense for him to run me through a series of them, and of course he doesn't need any of the gear for appearance purposes so it's all mine whether I can use it or have to sell it.
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Re: Men that aren't Creepers

Post by reboot on Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:23 am

I am one of those women who does not register as a woman for men due to my extreme unattractiveness, so my encounters with men are either pleasant or, when I was younger, hostile (because ugly women should stop existing), but never creepy. I am never an object of sexual attraction which tends to inspire behavior defined as creepy. Therefore, I have never experienced a man being creepy. It is one of the benefits of not being attractive.
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Re: Men that aren't Creepers

Post by Enail on Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:31 am

reboot wrote:I am one of those women who does not register as a woman for men due to my extreme unattractiveness, so my encounters with men are either pleasant or, when I was younger, hostile (because ugly women should stop existing), but never creepy. I am never an object of sexual attraction which tends to inspire behavior defined as creepy. Therefore, I have never experienced a man being creepy. It is one of the benefits of not being attractive.

Not sure that's quite the sort of heartening example the OP was looking for Razz
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Re: Men that aren't Creepers

Post by Suika on Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:51 am

I used to be creepy, but now I think that I'm far less of it; mostly because I never attempt anything that would make me seem creepy to begin with. I talk to women when I meet them, and then I conveniently forget about them until I see them another time.
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Re: Men that aren't Creepers

Post by reboot on Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:56 am

Enail wrote:
reboot wrote:I am one of those women who does not register as a woman for men due to my extreme unattractiveness, so my encounters with men are either pleasant or, when I was younger, hostile (because ugly women should stop existing), but never creepy. I am never an object of sexual attraction which tends to inspire behavior defined as creepy. Therefore, I have never experienced a man being creepy. It is one of the benefits of not being attractive.

Not sure that's quite the sort of heartening example the OP was looking for Razz

Grin Yeah, probably not, but then again, I am one woman who has not had a creepy encounter since 14 (when it was more predators targeting what appeared to be a vulnerable child). My non creepy experiences count too!
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Re: Men that aren't Creepers

Post by Conreezy on Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:57 am

Gentleman Johnny wrote:Well, I like to think that 99% of my life involves men (myself included) not being creepy. Is there a particular context you're interested in? Think about it this way, stories of guys being creepy get told because they're ot the norm and not acceptable.

Yeah, I wonder why this is necessary. I understand that it can feel like a constant assault of guys-are-dicks stories when perusing these sorts of places, and the guilt can suck, but why not just take a break from that sort of thing to console yourself?
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Re: Men that aren't Creepers

Post by reboot on Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:39 am

Conreezy wrote:
Gentleman Johnny wrote:Well, I like to think that 99% of my life involves men (myself included) not being creepy. Is there a particular context you're interested in? Think about it this way, stories of guys being creepy get told because they're ot the norm and not acceptable.

Yeah, I wonder why this is necessary. I understand that it can feel like a constant assault of guys-are-dicks stories when perusing these sorts of places, and the guilt can suck, but why not just take a break from that sort of thing to console yourself?  

"Guys are dick" stories are like stories of travel misadventures, they are the ones that are more interesting to tell and hear. Not being a dick and a pleasant travel experience are the expected norm and only things that vary from the norm are I interesting to share. For example:

"I met this really cool guy last weekend." "Really? Where did you meet him." "At X." "That's cool." [Topic change] and "I just got back from X." "Really? How was it?" "It was fun. We did A, B, and C." "Sounds fun." [Topic change]

"Holy shit! You can not believe the monumental douchbag I met this weekend! I am still seething!" "Oh no! What happened?" [Story proceeds. Experiences shared] and "Oh my god, you will never believe what happened on my trip to X!" "Oh god, what?" [Story proceeds. Experiences of similar shared]
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Re: Men that aren't Creepers

Post by Enail on Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:39 am

<mod> Unless a thread is in some way potentially harmful (problematic implications, perpetuating stereotypes, etc.), if you don't see the point of a thread, the best way to handle that is generally to not read it. Please take it as given that the OP would find it heartening to hear about guys being awesome and either participate in that or don't. </mod>
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Re: Men that aren't Creepers

Post by Guest on Sun Oct 12, 2014 2:43 pm

I mean, hey, men aren't generally creepy around me. *ba dum tss*.

But in all seriousness, that type of behavior being described here is not socially acceptable in the slightest, thus why it only happens when a woman is alone. Those types of dudes are too scared of groups.

Another instance in which creepers tend not to be so creepy: a woman and a man. Creeper is threatened by man, keeps his distance. Threatened by stereotypical gender roles more than any "DURRR MEN ARE STRONGER THAN WOMEN" kinda thing.

While it's insanely difficult to figure out if a woman is attracted to you (thanks society!), it's unbelievably simply to know when a woman doesn't want to talk to you. The mistake a lot of people make (both genders) is to think of men and women as mostly separate entities. Men are taught that women are emotional and irrational. Confirmation bias does the rest of the work.

The last time I ever creeped out a woman was completely by accident, thanks to a complete misreading of signals, and back when I was in the deepest of my PUA phase (which luckily didn't go very far, otherwise I wouldn't be here). I was talking to a girl at a party, and she mentioned having a pain in her back, and like an idiot I thought she wanted me to touch her back. So I did, she recoiled, and I quickly realized what a fucking idiot I had been and apologized. Still avoided me, but I kinda deserved it for being so stupid.

I mean, this results in a very delicate dance most men who don't want to be creepy have to partake in. We know that physical escalation is the way to indicate desire, but we don't want to scare her off if she doesn't like us. So I tend to be really hesitant to touch people in general, as a rule, because I don't like being touched by most people.

I can at least cite myself as a person who women aren't creeped out by. Almost nonexistent entity, yes, but not a creep. I honestly think part of it is inadvertently due to my absolute revulsion to being touched by most people, which is seen as me being respectful rather than me simply not wanting to touch anyone.

Also, I'm not referring to women I'm already friends with, I'm talking about girls that I am immediately physically attracted to.

But even so, the body posture of my female friends is relaxed and open, not tense. Their eyes crinkle when they smile at me, indicating that it's genuine, since such a smile is hard to fake. Considering the sheer amount of desperate male attention they all receive (I honestly don't have a single unattractive female friend, it's a little odd. But like, they're also really nice people too. Wicked smart), the fact that I've never made a move on any of them also helps. I am attracted to a few of them, have awkwardly made subtle references that I liked them, which naturally went over their heads. But I also know from their body language, how they don't constantly touch me and so on, that they are not attracted to me. I'm not really bitter about it like I would've been earlier in my life, since it's entirely reasonable for them to have standards.

But they are still treated differently by men. Not the male friends in the group, they're respectful too. But whenever some random dude tries to hang with the group, there's pretty blatant attempts to get them to make out with each other, even though only one of them is gay. It's such a distinct lack of tact, and many of them get confused when I tend to treat them with pretty blatant hostility. The ones who get added to the core group are those who don't do that.

So no, I'm not a creeper, because I really don't like offending people. I go pretty far out of my way to avoid most women I'm attracted to just to prevent this. Either I repress my feelings or I avoid them, otherwise I will get too awkward and shy around them. I consider that to be the most respectful thing I can do, not because I would ever try anything disrespectful, but because noticing that someone you aren't attracted to being attracted to you is pretty repulsive on its own.

I think in American society, there are four kinds of men:

1. Men who are good with women.

2. Men who are decent with women.

3. Men who are terrible with women but are respectful

4. Creepers

I'm not a woman, therefore it's not my place to determine what kinds of women there are. I have noticed that the majority of my female friends have very active sex lives if they're not in relationships already (and even then, frequent sex with their partners). I think in a lot of cases, the creepers are jealous of that. I'm kinda jealous of that too, admittedly. They tend to hide this from most of their male friends and each other, since they're taught to feel ashamed about having sex when not in a relationship. A one night stand has resulted in a female friend almost being socially shunned for being a "slut."

So the problem that leads to male creepers and women hating sex is that men are women are taught opposite sexual values. Men are taught to value only sex, women are taught to value only intimacy. If a woman has a one night stand, she will be called a whore. I even subconsciously think negatively of her thanks to my religious upbringing (still trying to get over that).

The inverse of this is a time where me and a friend of mine, who is a lesbian, cuddled in her bed in front of everyone. I was promptly called a "faggot" and a "pussy" by most of the group. Now, if I had fucked said lesbian in front of all of them, I probably would've gotten congratulated and gotten a lot of respect for it. This isn't for any other reason than that said lesbian is extremely attractive and a lesbian.

But now let's imagine a group of female friends talking about that girl cuddling with her girlfriend (who didn't really care, because why would you be insecure if your SO isn't attracted to men?). They would all immediately compliment her on that, saying how thoughtful and caring she is. Opposite values. If that girl had had a one night stand with someone else, then she would've been called a whore.

Thus this fucked up outdated Puritan morals is what's causing this discrepancy. We've made men afraid to express their sexuality and women afraid of enjoying theirs. Creepers are just men who take the current system way too seriously and assume it gives them some kind of power over women to soothe their own insecurities.

I know this because I have known men in the past like this and women who have been hurt by men like this. The key theme is ownership. "I deserve this, I own you." Women who prey on men do this too, but it obviously doesn't happen as often since women are shamed for their sexuality. You get rotten apples in both genders. The data on rape and abuse is too skewed and too recent to know for sure. All that we know for sure is that a shit ton of people are getting hurt. "You owe me, you'd do this if you love me." Using people's desires against them.

So I know that OP is probably pissed because predictably, the conversation turned into how awful male creepers are instead of positive examples of men. The problem being is that the "good men" you speak of are not going to be acknowledged or thanked for it. You don't ever hear anything about "good women," you just hear about the shitty ones who hurt and abuse people. Shitty people tend to get the most attention.

Being respectful towards people sexually is not something to be lauded. That's the whole mentality behind Nice Guys TM. "I held the door open for her, why isn't she sucking my dick?" They see it as a "this for that," holding open the door for oral sex. "No other man has ever held open the door for her, she should be lovestruck by this show of affection." All those stupid sex comedies about nerdy looking men getting the supermodel are basically the male equivalent of Nicolas Sparks movies, male Twilight, male Fifty Shades of Grey. Crapola. Encouraging abusive relationships in most cases (and yes, Ryan Gosling's character in The Notebook literally threatened suicide unless a girl, already in a relationship, went out with him. That movie is shite). On the inverse, you have pure male fantasy in American Pie and every shitty sex comedy out there. The man puts in no work and the gorgeous babe falls into his lap like that. The only exceptions tend to be movies by Judd Apatow, and despite my problems with them story wise, do actually portray relationships in a healthy way, showing people getting together out of mutual desire and the work it takes to get there. Superbad is a satire of those godawful sex movies, for chrissakes. There's literally a scene in which the main character confesses that he was trying to get a girl drunk, because that's the only way she would ever want him. That movie is still one of my favorites for being the first to treat being a teenage guy realistically. They don't "get the girl", they get each other. That's the kind of movie that there needs to be more of.

But still, my main point is that being a good person is not laudable or something to be proud of. Whenever I see anyone boast online about how fucking amazing they apparently are, I know they're lying between their teeth. No actual good person actually boasts about it. Actions speak louder than words. Good isn't even an adjective to be applied to someone. I've done nice things, I've also done bad things. I'm not a good person, neither are you or anyone else. Doesn't mean we can't do good, just means that we have to consciously work at it. But you will never be rewarded for being good, or doing good. And if you expect to be, you're probably not a good person.

Note: "You" is not OP, that's just a generality. OP actually was pretty respectful about the question, so I don't want him thinking that this is a personal attack, it's really not. It's directed at creepers/Nice Guys/Red Pillers/etc.

So that is not to say that no man has ever been awesome for any reason. But said men were not awesome for a reward, said men were awesome because it was right. You will probably not hear about it because it's common courtesy, it's just standard human decency. Do it for the internal self. Simple, but too hard for most.

Rant over.

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Re: Men that aren't Creepers

Post by Guest on Sun Oct 12, 2014 10:50 pm

There are a lot of men who go above and beyond, but it's hard for me to keep track of it, because it's not generally a time when I'm processing them as "men". They are being good people, and good friends, and good fellow-beings, and that's how I respond -- the same as if they were women doing the same things.

I can't really process it as them being not-creepers, because I don't carry the expectation of creeperdom around with me.

In the spirit of the thread, though, I'll share some good stories about men being awesome:

1. When I was stranded at one point 100+ miles from home in my college years, due entirely to my own stupidity, I called a friend of mine, who came out to pick me up without asking a lot of questions I couldn't deal with at the time. He just helped out, never asked for anything, and never made a big deal of it later.

2. One day when there were only two people at my Bible study group, I went a little wild on oversharing, and left feeling like I'd done something shameful and incredibly embarrassing. I was almost at the point of deciding I could never go back, and then I got a note in the mail from him -- he'd looked up my address to send me a letter hoping I'd be okay, thanking me for sharing, and letting me know he'd always be there if I just needed an ear. If he'd waited to talk to me in person, I might never have gone back.

3. My high school physics teacher, who I think saved my life a few times over by just being genuinely interested and caring about students in a way I so desperately needed in my high school years. He and I are still in touch today, and he still manages to sometimes say just what I need to hear.

There are more -- I've had a lot of genuinely good men in my life -- but that's a sort of cross-cut sample of some of the guys who've made a difference for the good.

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Re: Men that aren't Creepers

Post by The Wisp on Sun Oct 12, 2014 11:15 pm

To slightly modify the thread a bit: I'd like to hear from women about non-negative experiences of men they weren't attracted to hitting on them.
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Re: Men that aren't Creepers

Post by nearly_takuan on Sun Oct 12, 2014 11:18 pm

The Wisp wrote:To slightly modify the thread a bit: I'd like to hear from women about non-negative experiences of men they weren't attracted to hitting on them.

Non-negative from whose point of view? Razz
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Re: Men that aren't Creepers

Post by eselle28 on Sun Oct 12, 2014 11:41 pm

The Wisp wrote:To slightly modify the thread a bit: I'd like to hear from women about non-negative experiences of men they weren't attracted to hitting on them.

1. I have a couple of bland "hey, how are u doin?" messages in my inbox at the moment and a couple more brief but funny or insightful ones from men who are deeply incompatible with me. Nothing particularly negative about any of those.

2. Last time I was winging for my friend, the wingman ended up asking me for my number. I said something bland about not really looking to date anyone right now. He got the hint and resumed being pleasant until my friendperson and his friendperson resolved that they weren't all that into each other and we all went home separately.

3. Earlier that same night, a couple of very drunk and very young dudes plopped down next to me and friendperson and started making conversation. Were they hitting on us? Who the hell knows. But despite being very drunk and rather questionably of age to be in a bar, they figured out after a couple of one or two word responses that their company wasn't welcome and went elsewhere. No hard feelings on either side.

(People may note the lack of warm approaches. I'm not interested in dating any of my friends and coworkers, and I suspect it shows. It's been a long time since I've had a warm approach, and a bit longer since there's been one that wasn't negative.)


Last edited by eselle28 on Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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