(re)watch Babylon 5

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Re: (re)watch Babylon 5

Post by waxingjaney on Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:31 pm

Werel wrote:
S1E10:

-Oho, predecessor saved Kosh from what?

Back in the pilot, the Minbari assassin disguised himself as Sinclair and slapped a poison tab on Kosh's hand. Dr. Kyle had to open the encounter suit to figure out why Kosh was dying. The Vorlon government specifically said not to open the suit.

-This Ivanova B-plot feels reeeeeally unnecessary.

It's mostly to remind you that the Raiders are still a threat, and to make you wonder just how Ivanova managed to get away from ten of them.
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Re: (re)watch Babylon 5

Post by Enail on Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:02 pm

S1E10:

-Ivanova's subtle hints that she should get to take the ship rofl
-He's giving him a tamagotchi?
-Oh wait, no, silly putty Laughing
-The different ambassadors giving their refusal was an interesting look into their personalities. I don't really buy the Minbari refusing to intercede because they know how terrible it is when other cultures forcibly interfere with their beliefs about their souls, though, that's 100% an argument in favour of them interceding. She probably just didn't have the budget either.
-The kid not wanting Sinclair to tell Franklin it's not really an egg rofl
-The reaction of the parents to their kid Sad
-Holy shit, Franklin's still being smug about it after seeing those reactions?!
-travelling robe' and 'he'll get lots of rest,' how does he not realize they're going to kill the kid?!
-They killed the kid  :/
-Wow that conversation between Sinclair and Franklin. That was the least fine "fine" any actor has ever delivered, and Sinclair just stands therefor way too many beats for there to be any chance he believed it, and still just leaves it at that. Bomaye, I think they meant it to be exactly that sad.
-...did Ivanova defeat all those raiders?!

That was both a very funny episode and an extremely sad one. Good job, B5!
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Re: (re)watch Babylon 5

Post by Werel on Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:14 pm

Enail wrote:
S1E10:

-The kid not wanting Sinclair to tell Franklin it's not really an egg rofl

It's funny that both you and bomaye took that as a comic moment, I thought it was the saddest/most touching thing in the whole episode Uh-oh
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Re: (re)watch Babylon 5

Post by waxingjaney on Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:51 pm

Enail wrote:
S1E10:

I don't really buy the Minbari refusing to intercede because they know how terrible it is when other cultures forcibly interfere with their beliefs about their souls, though, that's 100% an argument in favour of them interceding. She probably just didn't have the budget either.

This explanation is a callback to episode 2 and the backstory of the Soul Hunters trying to capture the soul of the Minbari's dying leader. But yeah, Delenn was more or less looking for a reason to stay out of it.
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Re: (re)watch Babylon 5

Post by Enail on Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:53 pm

Spoiler:
I don't think the two are mutually exclusive; the humour, and the personality it showed, added a lot of poignancy for me, it wasn't "haha, that dumb kid," it was a laugh of seeing the kid be so much smarter than he's getting credit for, to the point where he's trying to protect the doctor from loss of innocence - from his death - but also there's something so totally childish about thinking Franklin doesn't know it's not, it's the incongruity that makes it funny, and that's what makes it sad.
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Re: (re)watch Babylon 5

Post by Enail on Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:55 pm

waxingjaney wrote:
Spoiler:
This explanation is a callback to episode 2 and the backstory of the Soul Hunters trying to capture the soul of the Minbari's dying leader. But yeah, Delenn was more or less looking for a reason to stay out of it.

Spoiler:
Yeah, I got the reference, I just think that episode was a pretty strong argument that she would be strongly motivated to stand up for someone who feels their soul needs to be protected from people who have different religious beliefs.  Wink
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Re: (re)watch Babylon 5

Post by Werel on Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:30 am

Enail wrote:
Spoiler:
I don't think the two are mutually exclusive; the humour, and the personality it showed, added a lot of poignancy for me, it wasn't "haha, that dumb kid," it was a laugh of seeing the kid be so much smarter than he's getting credit for, to the point where he's trying to protect the doctor from loss of innocence - from his death - but also there's something so totally childish about thinking Franklin doesn't know it's not, it's the incongruity that makes it funny, and that's what makes it sad.

Oh, you mean y'all aren't just SOULLESS MONSTERS? Razz (Well put, that's exactly what it was.)
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Re: (re)watch Babylon 5

Post by bomaye on Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:28 am

Enail wrote:
Spoiler:
I don't think the two are mutually exclusive; the humour, and the personality it showed, added a lot of poignancy for me, it wasn't "haha, that dumb kid," it was a laugh of seeing the kid be so much smarter than he's getting credit for, to the point where he's trying to protect the doctor from loss of innocence - from his death - but also there's something so totally childish about thinking Franklin doesn't know it's not, it's the incongruity that makes it funny, and that's what makes it sad.

She pretty much said what it was for me too. Sinclair's face during that scene basically reflected mine.


Oh, you mean y'all aren't just SOULLESS MONSTERS? Razz (Well put, that's exactly what it was.)

>Soulless Monsters
>From one of the fucking Giggle Girls rofling how the Titans run on their way to brutally eating people in AoT

Boxing
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Re: (re)watch Babylon 5

Post by Enail on Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:20 pm

bomaye wrote:
Werel wrote:
Oh, you mean y'all aren't just SOULLESS MONSTERS? Razz (Well put, that's exactly what it was.)

>Soulless Monsters
>From one of the fucking Giggle Girls rofling how the Titans run on their way to brutally eating people in AoT

Boxing

I laughed at both Uh-oh
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Re: (re)watch Babylon 5

Post by Hirundo Bos on Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:25 pm

Just chiming in here because as I may have mentioned, s1e10 was the episode that really sold me on B5, back then, and I really enjoy reading all you folks' reaction to it now...

and also because it just struck me, after 20 years, that when Vorlons procreate, they'll probably be making little Babylons.
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Re: (re)watch Babylon 5

Post by bomaye on Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:11 am

Think I'm gonna change my B5 watch-day to Mondays or Tuesdays, that's a quieter day with the new anime season

S1E11

Spoiler:

- Alien immigration and trade, oh boy
- Yiiiiikes, standing in the elevator with that CG in the background has noooooot aged well
- Russian attitude about government, dohoho
- Soulless monster, moment "Oh my god" as the cgi astronaut floats by made me do a LOL
- Doh, less funny now that Dr Franklin is working on him
- "Lianna." OHHHHHHHHHOHOHOHOHOHOOOOOOOOHOHOOOOOO, tell us about your wild fling with Garabaldi back when he was Garahairi, Lianna-chan
- "Sweet kid" oh dammit, it's just a friend's kid
- "Mr Garabaldi will be happy to fill you in." Eyyyy, not everyone is bad at pick-up lines in this universe, even if that one wasn't remotely meant as one Wink wink nudge nudg
- G'Kar complaining about fucking seating arrangements. He's such a fucking over-the-top neurotic sitcom character rofl
- Damn, something bad must've happened in the past for Garabaldi to get all mad like this Sad
- Apparently threatening to murder the secret service makes'em fold pretty quick and get out of your way peacefully and easily
- Well within her authority to euthanize a dude for information
- Welp, Garabaldi getting framed
- Resisting arrest, welp
- "You are going to resist, I hope." Ivanova's pretty hardcore
- Huh, I thought Londo was going to ask for future favours (and he might still), not go on about how him and Garabaldi are brothers from different space-mothers
- G'Kar offering Garabaldi a drink. I don't know if they meant that to be sleazy, but that's fuckin sleazy Neutral
- "We all watch each other here, Mr Garabaldi." What a G'Kar line
- G'Kar trying to recruit him to be a spy x)
- Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest. Thiiissssss guy
- Those chain-swinging sound effects x)
- "Earth Force One" Ahaaaaaaaa I see what you did there
- Ha, the alien biting the Centauri Ducat to see if it's real
- Garabaldi going for the drink Sad
- Check the bays one more time, PROBABLY BECAUSE YOU'RE THE BAD GUY
- I was right B)
- Datttt fight scene and dramatic yelling to stop the launch :nod:
- Dat survive line from Garabaldi ;_;
- Stiff little-kid walk as she was leaving

Halfway through Season 1 now
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Re: (re)watch Babylon 5

Post by Wondering on Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:28 pm

ZOMG. How have I not been in this forum so long I didn't know y'all were doing a B5 rewatch?! One of my favorite shows of all time! Another of my favorite shows of all time? DS9. I don't compare them. I enjoy both.

And I'm glad to see I missed the "Believers" episode. It's one of my most hated of the series. So preachy. Yuck.

I watched B5 in its original run, and have it all on DVD. I will join you!

But did you guys know about the B5 "curse"? So many of these actors are dead before their time. Several of them at age 60. Sad

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Re: (re)watch Babylon 5

Post by waxingjaney on Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:09 pm

Babylon 5 S1 E11: Survivors

Spoiler:

An explosion damages the new fighter bays just before the President's arrival, and Garibaldi is blamed.

- President making a PR visit.
- Low gravity handrails, and cheesy '90s CG
- Cue the dramatic music...
- and KABOOM!
- No steadicams here, everyone just wriggle, and watch the giant dead guy rotate through space.
- Oh, they're reeeeeeeal friendly.
- Noooooo, not the Vree!
- An angry Garibaldi is a violent Garibaldi.
- And this is his character episode, tragic backstory included.
- Damn, Kemmer's gonna kill that dude.
- Uh oh, Garibaldi's in trouble.
- And dead guy was a racist.
- Damnnnnnn, handing in his badge.
- Kemmer's jacket is pretty big in the flanks.
- C15? Explosive upgrade.
- Aaaaaand he's running.
- Sinclair's had his fill.
- Ha, so has Ivanova.
- 23rd century VR needs some work.
- Ivanova is enjoying that way too much.
- Garibaldi's shirt is soooooo '90s.
- Nice character moment for Londo.
- G'Kar wheeling and dealing.
- Bug puppet makes a cameo.
- Hell of a random place for a door.
- Garibaldi's pretty good with the kicks.
- But with 3 on 1, you're supposed to run.
- Sinclair just haaaaaapened to be walking by, making his danger run.
- Garibaldi sliding around Mos Eisley.
- And he's off the wagon.
- Drunk as hell, but no throwing up.
- But they were waiting for him.
- Garibaldi's still working.
- A "Let's purify the universe" pamphlet? Oh shit.
- And Cutter's in on it.
- Garibaldi kicking again.
- Of course it holds at 1 second.
- Oh jeez, Sinclair's jacket is junky in the trunky too.
- "trouble" is not how I'd describe a toilet full of snakes.
- And Garibaldi gets his badge back.
- The President is turning soft on aliens. That won't go over well.
- And they're making up, so she let her hair down.


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Re: (re)watch Babylon 5

Post by waxingjaney on Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:12 pm

Wondering wrote:I watched B5 in its original run, and have it all on DVD. I will join you!

Woohoo, more fun!

But did you guys know about the B5 "curse"? So many of these actors are dead before their time. Several of them at age 60. Sad

Well, at least they got to make some good TV before they went, rather than muffler commercials.
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Re: (re)watch Babylon 5

Post by bomaye on Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:00 pm

waxingjaney wrote:Babylon 5 S1 E11: Survivors

Spoiler:

- Noooooo, not the Vree!

Shit made fucking lol


Spoiler:

- Garibaldi's shirt is soooooo '90s.

Spoiler:

It's such a '90s "My wife made me wear this" get-up

Wondering wrote:
But did you guys know about the B5 "curse"? So many of these actors are dead before their time. Several of them at age 60. Sad

I found out about the big thing that affected the main cast before the show ended, but I didn't know that more of them had problems and deaths :/
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Re: (re)watch Babylon 5

Post by Wondering on Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:08 am

Yeah, Michael O'Hare, Richard Biggs, Andreas Katsulas, and Jerry Doyle have all died. Plus someone from a later season. Sad

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Re: (re)watch Babylon 5

Post by Enail on Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:55 pm

Funny, Wondering, I think everyone who posted about it liked "Believers!" Now you're making me wonder if I'm just watching it through a lens of 90s sci fi nostalgia and forgiving some other writing sins along with the 90s cheesiness Wink

S1E10 - Believers:
I thought it pulled off the preachiness by making it darker than preachy sci-fi episodes usually go (and also by having some hilarious bits), and also by the fact that it didn't come down on saying Franklin's choice was inherently wrong in all situations period so much as that he was so confident in his view that he ignored the context and misread the situation. It came down to me as something more akin to "we know less than we think we do, learn to read before you start trying to write," which seems to tie into some of the other mysterious subplots we've been seeing lately, than a "cultural relativism above all else."

I do think it was pretty one-sided in terms of portraying the parents as wrong to have the beliefs they do, though, there was a missed opportunity there to use the Minbari's experiences to try and show why that culture believes as it does instead of making them seem like religious kooks. The message came across as "these people's beliefs are totally wrong but you're also wrong if you try to fuck with them half-assedly." So I guess I see your point.
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Re: (re)watch Babylon 5

Post by waxingjaney on Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:16 pm

Enail wrote:Funny, Wondering, I think everyone who posted about it liked "Believers!" Now you're making me wonder if I'm just watching it through a lens of 90s sci fi nostalgia and forgiving some other writing sins along with the 90s cheesiness Wink

I didn't particularly like it myself. I thought the parents came off as stereotypical fundamentalist blowhards. The episode was really about Franklin and the kid; his folks were just there to be an obstacle and the story could have been done just as easily without them.
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Re: (re)watch Babylon 5

Post by Wondering on Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:39 pm

Yes, fundamentalist blowhards to a T.  And the whole episode was rife with theirs and Franklin's sanctimonious holier-than-thou-ness. It's the sort of preachiness that's supposed to reflect on real-life contemporary situations like Star Trek did frequently and I was glad was generally absent from B5. The tone was different from much of the rest of the show.

IIRC that episode was not written by JMS.

Btw, I assume we're only putting specific plot points behind spoiler tags and this is okay not tagged.


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Re: (re)watch Babylon 5

Post by Enail on Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:48 pm

It was very Star Trek.
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Re: (re)watch Babylon 5

Post by Wondering on Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:15 pm

I was posting on my phone and things got wonky, so here's my more detailed response to your point, Enail.

Spoiler:
I will admit that my extreme dislike for this episode is colored by my real life in being both a religious person -- who is definitely not fundamentalist -- and a person with a chronic medical condition since childhood. A condition that will kill a child if that child's parents refuse to get the child proper medical care. And this does happen in the real world. Every few years, you can read of a Type 1 diabetic child who died or almost died because her parents were Christian Science or had some other religious belief that led them to believe they could pray their child's diabetes away instead of giving her insulin. This episode is not just hypothetical.

So, I feel in the end it comes down to saying, "We think they're wrong, but actually they're right because we need to respect everyone's beliefs equally no matter how harmful they are to the innocent." And just no. I can't get on board with that. (I can get on board with it even less in the current political climate. Sad )

It makes religion look bad and it makes making the decision to protect the innocent look bad. Franklin went about it totally wrong. But that's Franklin. He's an ass, and I don't care for him, either. But Sinclair came down on the side of the parents, too.


Speaking of religion and another episode that's already been watched and commented on:
Spoiler:
I always really liked Sinclair parading all the different Earth religions instead of picking just one. Again, I'm looking at that in the larger context instead of just the show's text. This was also a reaction to Star Trek and its ridiculous claim that in the future, not only will humans not have money, they won't have religion and how awesome that is! Side-eye  B5 is showing they aren't going to follow that Trek ideology.* Humans do have religion in B5's vision of the future, and they're all still there, and they all (presumably) get along.

*DS9 got around this beautifully by having the religious focus be on the Bajorans and showcasing different people's attitudes toward their own beliefs and religious leaders.

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Re: (re)watch Babylon 5

Post by Enail on Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:04 pm

Wondering wrote:

Spoiler:
I will admit that my extreme dislike for this episode is colored by my real life in being both a religious person -- who is definitely not fundamentalist -- and a person with a chronic medical condition since childhood. A condition that will kill a child if that child's parents refuse to get the child proper medical care. And this does happen in the real world. Every few years, you can read of a Type 1 diabetic child who died or almost died because her parents were Christian Science or had some other religious belief that led them to believe they could pray their child's diabetes away instead of giving her insulin. This episode is not just hypothetical.

So, I feel in the end it comes down to saying, "We think they're wrong, but actually they're right because we need to respect everyone's beliefs equally no matter how harmful they are to the innocent." And just no. I can't get on board with that. (I can get on board with it even less in the current political climate. Sad )

Spoiler:
I definitely see your point. I do think the 'one-dimensional fundamentalist religious alien' is something I was overlooking/forgiving as an expected part of the early 90s sci-fi cheesiness, but I also read the message less as 'you should always respect everyone's beliefs equally and abide by them no matter how harmful they are to the innocent' and more as 'just because you can see that a belief is harmful to the innocent doesn't mean you can see everything you need to know to intervene with them successfully," essentially that the single belief an outsider can see is just the tip of the iceberg of an entire belief system and culture, and can't be simplistically isolated from it, and that good intentions don't always have good results. Which is a much more sophisticated message than I'd expect from a pretty early episode in an old sci fi show still finding its feet, and one I'd agree with much more than the message you took from it, I'd have a different reaction if I'd read it that way.    


Spoiler:

It makes religion look bad and it makes making the decision to protect the innocent look bad. Franklin went about it totally wrong. But that's Franklin. He's an ass, and I don't care for him, either. But Sinclair came down on the side of the parents, too.

Spoiler:
It does make both sides look bad, but I thought Sinclair wasn't so much coming down on the side of the parents as making a decision he found morally unpalatable because he felt the larger political repercussions would be too great, and possibly also because he didn't feel confident the outcome would be positive - a darkly pragmatic one rather than a morally satisfactory one.


Speaking of religion and another episode that's already been watched and commented on:
Spoiler:
I always really liked Sinclair parading all the different Earth religions instead of picking just one. Again, I'm looking at that in the larger context instead of just the show's text. This was also a reaction to Star Trek and its ridiculous claim that in the future, not only will humans not have money, they won't have religion and how awesome that is! Side-eye  B5 is showing they aren't going to follow that Trek ideology.* Humans do have religion in B5's vision of the future, and they're all still there, and they all (presumably) get along.

Spoiler:

Ha, I didn't like it b/c I felt like it was a way of trying to claim that humans are the only ones with a diversity of religions! Wink But I am finding the use of religion in this show very interesting as a contrast to Star Trek!
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Re: (re)watch Babylon 5

Post by Werel on Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:32 pm

Enail wrote:
Spoiler:
I definitely see your point. I do think the 'one-dimensional fundamentalist religious alien' is something I was overlooking/forgiving as an expected part of the early 90s sci-fi cheesiness, but I also read the message less as 'you should always respect everyone's beliefs equally and abide by them no matter how harmful they are to the innocent' and more as 'just because you can see that a belief is harmful to the innocent doesn't mean you can see everything you need to know to intervene with them successfully," essentially that the single belief an outsider can see is just the tip of the iceberg of an entire belief system and culture, and can't be simplistically isolated from it, and that good intentions don't always have good results. Which is a much more sophisticated message than I'd expect from a pretty early episode in an old sci fi show still finding its feet, and one I'd agree with much more than the message you took from it, I'd have a different reaction if I'd read it that way.

Spoiler:
That's closer to how I read it too-- I think I'd have disliked it if it came off as a preachy simplistic cultural relativism message. That, and I love a good deeply-held-values vs. deeply-held-values sci fi episode; it almost felt like a battle between two forms of hardline fundamentalism (preserve biological life above all else vs. preserve spiritual life above all else). The good intentions were of the utmost good within Franklin's value system, but were totally perverse to the parents, and that makes for super good TV.

That, and the fact that the kid didn't want the operation (or at least wasn't clear about it) because it was his religion too made it more complicated than if he were a "pure innocent" like a baby. I thought it was a pretty sharp episode for early 90s sci fi, although it did of course seem to lean towards "Franklin is basically morally in the right because silly primitive non-Earth religion ha ha ha," which, agreed, Wondering, is pretty unfair to religion.

ALSO, I think I've just been hanging out in the ivory tower looking at imperialism dressed as benevolence for too long to not be like ARRGGHH GODDAMNIT FRANKLIN, which is totally on me and probably why I so enjoyed seeing him get slapped in the face with the repercussions. (I watched this episode right after reading a case study of the Indian government doing "nutrition" initiatives with tribal kids who traditionally eat beef, trying to get them to stop eating beef and start drinking milk "for their health," but the tribe's cultural values consider drinking cow milk a form of bestiality WHOOPS and the whole thing is basically just a facet of the national attempt to Hinduize minority groups, so I totally went into this one primed in a certain direction. Wink)
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Re: (re)watch Babylon 5

Post by Enail on Mon May 01, 2017 12:14 am

S1E11:

-It's Garibaldi's turn, oh no, not more bad dialogue with an ex! No
-Whew, she's a niece-figure, what a relief,
-Wow, Garibaldi goes from 0 to 'turn in your badge' fast, whatever happened in his past can't have been good
-Sinclair and Ivanova stalling for him
-"You are going to resist, I hope"  Lovestruck
-Londo's talk about how he and Garibaldi are alike was interesting.
-Sinclair, Ivanova and Londo are Garibaldi's only friends? I knew Londo calls Garibaldi his friend, but I'm a little surprised to hear that he actually is!
-G'Kar being G'kar
-"Request denied" Laughing Ivanovvvva
-Why does this room have chains with flashing lights for people to drop from the ceiling from? Is this where they perform musicals? Futuristic upgrade on stripper-poles?
-The alien is suprised? hurt? that Garibaldi doesn't want to keep the hat Laughing
-Going for the drink Sad
-Why do the saboteurs carry pamphlets about their movement with them? Side-eye
-Awkward semi-reconciliation, plus depressing avuncular pep-talk :\
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Re: (re)watch Babylon 5

Post by bomaye on Wed May 03, 2017 10:06 am

S1E12

Spoiler:

- "You know how the Narn can be." I love how it's just accepted that they're all overdramatic and neurotic sitcom characters rofl
- Malfunction at the space junction
- Ohhhh, Narn religious thing of some kind
- Wow, G'Kar's actually shook up about this
- G'Kar's kind of sigh like "Ah yeah, someone did die, that is pretty shitty."
- "If there's anything I can do to be of assistance, you'll me know, yes?" "No." G'Kar + Londo forever
- Londo you fucking troll rofl rofl rofl
- Look at how non-space-y the city is behind that Senator
- Eduardo wears his headset at all hours of the day
- "Things are changing on Earth and not all for the best." Hitting a little close to home there, Sinclair...
- Worker's rights have sure gone to shit in the future
- God, Londo just mercilessly fucking with what sounds like a Narn holy plant
- Eyyyyyyy, it's the love-child of John Travolta and Ross from friends
- "I'll kill him with my bare hands! Sinclair can only kick me off the station! He might even thank me!" G'Kar rofl
- "What do you believe in Na'Toth?" "Myself." "Too easy an answer." Damn, man.
- YEAH EDUARDO, FUCK THE EXPER- WHY IS THIS SHOW SO CONTEMPORARY Uh-oh
- "Begging your pardon, Commander, but if someone's pushed you, would you push back?" Sinclair's face saying "You're god damn right I would Neutral"
- Mann, Sinclair's actor plays such a good haggard politician
- Londo in his fucking woman's housecoat rofl
- Man, they're really pushing this "pompous far-off elitist fucking with the working class" thing
- Ivanova chasing people away with a countdown rofl
- Wow, even the Senator's like "This shit sucks, man, sorry"
- Garibaldi being a man and taking the first punch, what a guy
- Grabbed the blonde woman too to drag her to safety
- Eduardo's not too proud of himself Sad
- Haaaa Sinclair is a disgusting socialist bastard, suck it Earth
- "G'kar and Londo are half an inch from killing each other." Sinclair rolls eyes. I recall Londo saying that Centauri have like dreams where they see their deaths and he knows him and G'Kar are going to die trying to kill each other, so is this like a running gag where it's like "they're fighting over a flower, maybe it's this time xD"
- Goddamn Sinclair, the Narn sunlight traveling through space, that's fucking beautiful
- Senator Hidoshi: "Yeahhh, you fucking stuck it to the man, I watched him fucking wriggle with my own eyes, guy B)"
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