what is it i am expected to do.

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what is it i am expected to do.

Post by AtlachNacha on Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:46 am

ok. i'm back. i disappeared for a while. idon't know how long ago that was. i can't really percieve time anymore for some reason? might be related to the recent diagnosis of discalculia/315.1/whatever the proper term is? idk. i don't know if i'm even welcome here. don't know where else to post this. only place i could think of. probably the wrong place.just needs to come out.

so

I recognize that i have no right to attempt to flirt with a woman because there is no possibility of it being welcome.
I recognize that my being a virgin at 24 is proof that i'm a terrible person.
I recognize that it means i am extremely likely to become resentful and violent towards women, statistically, and that i will likely physically harm someone, probably via rape. The idea currently disgusts me more than anything else in this world, and I do not feel the urge to do so now. I do not know when this will change. but i have been told since i was 11 that i eventually will do this and that there is no way to stop it other than suicide, that this is indisputably true and backed by science.
i recognize that my virginity is proof that i have no positive traits, or a woman would have found me attractive at least once, and as it was pointed out to me last time i was here, anyone who has claimed to find me attractive was drunk or lying for whatever reason
I recognize that i will be a virgin forever because of this 'milestone' being a red flag to the point of a universal dealbreaker due to the above points.
I recognize that the constant immediate reaction of disgust and hatred from every woman I interact with regardless of changes to my appearance or being in a similar subculture such that my appearance is removed as a factor means that I am doing something harmful to them in some way without realizing it, and that this not realizing what i am doing is proof of being incapable, deep down, of empathizing with women or of seeing them as human beings, further evidenced by my nervousness and anxiety when trying to speak to them.
This is further evidenced by friends continously disappearing, cutting off contact, without me ever knowing that there was an issue, let alone what it was. this being regardless of gender, it is clear that i am a sociopath.
I recognize that what I had previously described as abuse from my ex was in fact normal behavior, that i had provoked, and that she would not have been constantly jealous and suspicious of me cheating if i had not given her legitimate reason, and that i should not have been speaking to other women while in a relationship with her, and that i in fact abused her by characterizing her feelings and behaviour as unreasonable, and that her descriptions of me as disgusting and insistences that i was a terrible person were likely provoked by this, and are true.
I recognize that I continually violate peoples right to feel safe and unthreatened by not being in sufficient control of my body language and facial expressions to avoid seeming threatening or dangerous.
I recognize that my frustration at being lonely and a virgin indisputably stems from a subconscious entitlement and belief that women are obligated to have sex with me, because one cannot be frustrated at not having something without believing it is being unjustly withheld. the logic of this does not make sense to me, and i do not feel aware of this subconscious entitlement, but i acknowledge that i must accept it.

I acknowledge that I have no right to dispute any of the above, and that to do so would demonstrate a fundamental subconscious hatred of women, and mark me as "part of the problem." I sincerely acknowledge it and make no attempt to dispute or imply disagreement with any of it, because i am trying to be a better person.

to be a person at all.
but i make no progress.
i never really know what i am doing that is harmful in many cases, what it is that i convey with, in some cases, i suppose only my body language or clothing? that makes people feel their only recourse is to call the police. or spread rumours that i am a rapist, or a serial killer. why they feel other people need to be kept safe from the threat of me doing these things when i have never done these things. but again, that can only be due to lack of normal empathy and the resulting inability to understand human thought processes.

I recognize that I have no inherent right to live simply because I am technically a human, and that my benefit to society versus my detriment determines whether i should be allowed to continue existing. considering the above, and the below:

That i have no finished musical works after years of trying, proving that i cannot succeed as a composer,
that i have a very small repertoire, an inability to play in time, and am slowly losing the ability to read sheet music, and have never been able to get into a band, all after playing FOR YEARS. all meaning that i will never succeed as a musician,
that the above have no value to anyone and are simply hobbies at best to any reasonable person, and usually just an annoying noise, and my obsession with them to the point of learning four different instruments by self teaching has been an absurd waste of time and money.
that i cannot do basic math, or write simple essays, no matter what effort i apply, and therefor prove myself too cripplingly stupid to get into a community college
that i have no other skills, and, as above noted, no positive personality traits
that i constantly pile stress onto my family and friends(? are they friends? why are they still around? or are they just keeping an eye on me in case i finally snap?) with my crippling anxiety and panic attacks, and contribute nothing that would compensate
that i cannot hold a job for more than two days before being fired for having panic attacks at work
that nothing mentioned in any of this post has changed in years of therapy and medication and focused effort
that i do not in any way contribute any tangible or intangible benefit to society or any given individual, only pain.

I do not deserve to live, i do not have the right to continue living. my continued living causes measurable harm to those aronud me, on the rare occasion it causes anything at all.
And yet i am not permitted to commit suicide.
SO i am stuck. with an inability to improve myself, no right to exist or not exist, no path forward, no way out. and slowly becoming more useless and more of a burden. i used to be able to do math. i used to be able to read sheet music. i used to be able to play guitar and piano well enough to at least somewhat entertain. used to be able to cook, was even somewhat good at it. these have all left me almost completely. either i fumble with the task to a debilitated degree or i have a panic attack at the very thought of them. i feel as if i am dissolving.
and i am still compelled to remain and suffer and be a burden on my family.

what am i expected to do? what is asked of me? i have tried to improve, with professional help, with chemical assistance,

i cannot go out in public, i do not have the right to inflict myself on other people, so i must remain inside. I thought i could as long as i did not bother anyone, dressed more normally, stayed out of peoples way, didn't make unnecessary eye contact, did not speak to people. but they still call security forces to escort me away. or the police. i don't ever know what it is i am doing that is so harmful. last time iw as simply told that the customers had to be kept safe from people like me. i didn't interact with anyone in any way until security was called, or touch anything. so my very presence was what was harfmul enough to necessitate lethally armed security
i thought complimenting hair and shoes was safe but it has provoked yelling and threats of violence and calls to security
i am trying
i am trying to be a good person
to even be a person
but my very existence causes only harm and i see no possibility of anything else.
i am only ever hated
so shouldn't i die?
is there some other purpose i could serve?

why do my family and friends and therapist continually deny all these facts? why do they try to convince me these things are false when it is plainly evident and indisputable that they are true?

Wwhy does every therapist i see simply deny the subconscious evil plainly evident instead of helping me fix it? why do they lie to me and tell me that i am not evil when they know that i am? why do they insist that i am perfectly capable of working a normal job even despite the debilitating panic attacks and anxiety that get me fired or prevent me from being hired at all.

why am i not allowed to die?

i feel the universe itself trying to dissolve me and push me out like a foreign object or a rejected organ i feel my metaphysical body crumpled into a tiny ball like a sheet of foil it hurts everything hurts every sound is like a nail being driven through my eardrum why can't i stop the pain please let me stop it please i know i deserve it but please i have learned my lesson well i've accepted everything i've acknowledged ALL OF IT I'M NOT ARGUING OR FIGHTING IT ANYMORE I'M TRYING TO BE GOOD PLEASE can't it be enough please make it stopmakeitstopPLEASE WHY CAN"T I BE A PERSON WHY CAN"t i BE GOoD WHY CAN"t i stPP HURTING PEOPLE WHY CAN"T I STOP DRIVING EVERYONE AWAY WHY CAN"T I DO ANYTHING AT ALL WHY WAS I EVEN BORN IF MY DESTINY IS TO BE A PURPOSELESS LUMP OF FLESH ONly MASTURBATING AND EATING AND OCONVERTING OXYGEN TO CO@ WHAT AM I FOR WHY DOES tryingonlyend in fAilurewhy

what even am i why don't i have a soul

please somebody give me a purpose or a path or something please i know i have no right to ask for anything but please if i can't just die i need to be worth something and i can't find a way to be worth something please it all hurts so much give me something please anything i will try am tryingbut don't have anywayoutplease

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Re: what is it i am expected to do.

Post by Enail on Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:07 pm

Welcome back, AtlachNacha! I'm glad to see you again!

It sounds like you're having a really awful time, and I'm sorry you're suffering so much. I do want to remind you that suicide talk isn't something this board can handle ("I'm having suicidal thoughts" is fine, "I deserve to die" or "please let me die" or "people who [whatever trait or behavior] don't deserve to live" isn't) - I'm absolutely not mad at you or upset with you for posting it, but I do need you to try and keep that talk out of your posts in the future, okay?

I actually disagree a lot with your basic premises, none of the things you're saying sound true to me at all:
-I think it's fine to flirt with a woman if you pay attention to if they seem amenable and avoid a few situations where it's inappropriate (eg. if you're in a position of authority over her, it's an isolated, dark parking lot in the middle of the night...)
-I think many virgins are really awesome people. And there are a lot of reasons other than no woman ever finding you attractive a person might be a virgin.
-Virgins are no more likely to hurt anyone than non-virgins, and you have control over whether you physically harm or rape someone or not, and from what I've seen of you, I think you're going to keep on choosing not to hurt anyone.
-I really don't think anyone here was trying to tell you that the only reason anyone would have found you attractive was because they were drunk or lying. That would not be an okay thing for anyone to say here. That's not to say I think you're lying, but I do think maybe you misinterpreted something someone was saying to you, or applied something they were saying to someone else to yourself even though the context is different; it sounds like right now, you're having a hard time hearing or believing anything that's not negative about yourself.
-The last time you were here, I remember you mentioning some positive interactions you've had with women, as well as some interactions you weren't sure about but that I thought sounded like you got a positive reaction. Do you remember those?
-I think there are lots of reasons friends might cut off contact other than you're a bad person or a sociopath.
-It sounds like you are trying very hard not to make anyone uncomfortable, and that shows that you care about other people. Everyone screws up sometimes, and sometimes people are uncomfortable even if you've done nothing wrong, different people react in different ways and sometimes there's no predicting or avoiding what someone will react to. If you're making the effort to respect boundaries you're aware of and trying to pay attention to the boundaries people indicate, I think you're doing your part.
-Your ex sounds like an abusive asshole, and I'm sorry you had to go through that.
-I think it's normal and okay to be frustrated about not having an experience you want, and as long as you're not blaming or resenting women for it, it doesn't mean you're entitled.
-I don't believe people have to have X skill or contribute in Y way to society or any individual to deserve to live.

From what I've seen of you, you do have positive traits, and it's really cool that you can play so many instruments and compose! I think it's pretty normal to have trouble with skills that you normally can do when you're under extreme stress and anxiety; that sounds really scary and frustrating for you, but try to remember that it might be a symptom rather than a permanent state. And the same with the job issue. And anxiety is something that tends to make a person interpret things in the scariest and most negative way possible, so try to remember that your brain might be interpreting some things that have happened as much worse than they really are.

I'm sorry you're having so much trouble with the way other people react to you, and that you've been finding treatment unhelpful. Could you talk to your therapist/doctors about that and ask if there are other treatments you could try?
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Re: what is it i am expected to do.

Post by Werel on Mon Jul 03, 2017 7:11 pm

Hi AtlachNacha, welcome back! I'm sorry you're hurting so much right now, it sounds like you're in a really rough place.

I agree very much with everything Enail said. Lots of what you're saying doesn't sound true or even plausible to me (and I'm a woman, so I'm allowed to dispute those premises, by your logic Razz)-- but that's one of the lousiest things about anxiety, its ability to convince you that even implausibly negative things are true. Do you think it could possibly help to occasionally write down what you're feeling, then go back and cross out stuff like "I know" and "I recognize" and "it is clear", phrasing that implies undeniable truth, and replace it with things like "I perceive" and "I suspect" and "it seems like"? Reminding myself that the miserable tales my brain is spinning for me are not facts can be helpful to me when I get into depression spirals. And do you feel this way all the time? If not, would writing down the way you think about things when you're not in crisis mode be useful, so you can refer to them later and remember that there are non-jerkbrain parts of your brain too?

And just to reiterate what Enail's said, there is nothing about being a virgin that makes you a bad person or dangerous; there is nothing you could have done within your relationship to deserve abuse; there is no "science" that says that you will commit violent crimes, especially since you very much don't want to; people reacting to you with displeasure or avoidance does not necessarily mean you've done something to them (jerks exist! You didn't make them into jerks!); and you don't need to be or do anything special in order to deserve to live. Life isn't meted out on a meritocratic basis. It's laudable and excellent that you don't want your life to cause anyone else harm, and I think with that mindset, you absolutely have the ability to make a positive impact on others' lives-- but first, your priority ought to be getting yourself to a place where you're not suffering so much.

So, like Enail said, are there other treatments you could try? Do you think your current therapist is a good fit--do they click with you, do they get what you're saying, do they have helpful things to say in return?
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Re: what is it i am expected to do.

Post by AtlachNacha on Mon Jul 03, 2017 7:58 pm

Enail wrote:Welcome back, AtlachNacha! I'm glad to see you again!
why

Enail wrote:want to remind you that suicide talk isn't something this board can handle ("I'm having suicidal thoughts" is fine, "I deserve to die" or "please let me die" or "people who [whatever trait or behavior] don't deserve to live" isn't) - I'm absolutely not mad at you or upset with you for posting it, but I do need you to try and keep that talk out of your posts in the future, okay?
i'm sorry. i don't know where to talk about that. therapist appointment isn't for another week or so and family and friends just yell at me and 'suicide watch' kind of places tend to require identifiable information/track your IP so they can at will call the authorities and have you locked up in a place that is (at least the only one in my area) basically a glorified drunk tank with the distinction of being allowed to do things forbidden by the geneva convention and hold you indefinitely at will so i can't really post there. actually occurs to me i don't know if you might track my ip and find my exact location.
also occurs to me werel knows where i live. i have made a miscalculation.

Enail wrote:I actually disagree a lot with your basic premises, none of the things you're saying sound true to me at all:
all of these are universal feminist talking points that i see posted and discussed everywhere and if disputed or questioned or so much as asked to be clarified (i cannot figure out how to fix the grammar here i'm sorry i guess that's degrading too) result in the person being singled out, dogpiled, threatened, called a misogynist, rape apologist, mra, pedophile, every horriblet hing imaginable, and eventually doxxed and publically shamed and i cannot handle that i cannot handle being any more hated than i already am and if i had hundreds of people flooding my email inbox with encouragements to kill myself in all caps i wouldn't be able to handlethat.  i don't know if this is a test kind of thing but i know the rules i know how it works i'm being a good boy okay
Enail wrote:-I think it's fine to flirt with a woman if you pay attention to if they seem amenable and avoid a few situations where it's inappropriate (eg. if you're in a position of authority over her, it's an isolated, dark parking lot in the middle of the night...)
regardless of situation, i've shown that i can't properly interpret body language or facial expressions, ever, (particularly i could not possibly reliably tell you whether a given expression is a polite smile or a friendly smile or a flirtatious seductive one they all look exactly the same to me) but i've also been tested and shown not to be autistic, so i'm just an asshole. so i cannot ver tell if they seem amenable until they're yelling in my face about how horrible i am or being threatened with violence by their friends or being told to leave. or realistically, i've repressed the fact that i probably subconsciously actually don't care.
Enail wrote:-I think many virgins are really awesome people. And there are a lot of reasons other than no woman ever finding you attractive a person might be a virgin.
some things seem to have gotten twisted around here? no woman has ever found me attractive, i am a virgin because i drive everyone away and have nothing attractive or positive about me to keep them around. if i actually had redeeming qualities someone would've been at least momentarily interested.
Enail wrote:-Virgins are no more likely to hurt anyone than non-virgins, and you have control over whether you physically harm or rape someone or not, and from what I've seen of you, I think you're going to keep on choosing not to hurt anyone.
every single day a link comes down my facebook feed talking about a scientific study about how virgins and "beta males" are overwhelmingly statistically likely to commit violence against women, usually with a comment along the lines of "this is my suprised look". posted often by friends of my parents. people who were in the waiting room when i was born and have known me my entire life think i'm a horrible monster, (indirectly, because they don't know i'm a virgin.) i have control now. there is always the possibility of a psychotic break looming. i need to at least be locked up before that happens.
Enail wrote:-I really don't think anyone here was trying to tell you that the only reason anyone would have found you attractive was because they were drunk or lying. That would not be an okay thing for anyone to say here. That's not to say I think you're lying, but I do think maybe you misinterpreted something someone was saying to you, or applied something they were saying to someone else to yourself even though the context is different; it sounds like right now, you're having a hard time hearing or believing anything that's not negative about yourself.
kath wrote:
I think it is indeed likely that she was very high, and I would not read a lot more into this than what happened.

Again, drunk people are inscrutable. She clearly liked the way you looked, but whether she was interested in romantic potential - well, I'd say probably not.

Drunk people are pretty universally inscrutable, I wouldn't worry about what it meant.)
<mod> Passage about interpersonal conflict removed </mod>

Enail wrote:-The last time you were here, I remember you mentioning some positive interactions you've had with women, as well as some interactions you weren't sure about but that I thought sounded like you got a positive reaction. Do you remember those?
^
Enail wrote:-I think there are lots of reasons friends might cut off contact other than you're a bad person or a sociopath.
anyone who is friends with me knows that sudden unexplained loss of contact causes me great amounts of pain, fear and panic. anyone who then intentionally does that to me is knowingly and consciously inflicting pain, fear and panic on me, whether as the goal or as a side effect that they deem acceptable. nobody would do this to me if i did not deserve it. so i did something to deserve it. i do not see the fault point in my logic here this simply seems to be objective fact from my perspective.
Enail wrote:-It sounds like you are trying very hard not to make anyone uncomfortable, and that shows that you care about other people. Everyone screws up sometimes, and sometimes people are uncomfortable even if you've done nothing wrong, different people react in different ways and sometimes there's no predicting or avoiding what someone will react to. If you're making the effort to respect boundaries you're aware of and trying to pay attention to the boundaries people indicate, I think you're doing your part.
making the effort is meaningless if i don't succeed, the outward effect is the same as not trying at all.
and it's likely not that i care, it's that i've sublimated seflishly, cowardly covering my own ass into pretending to care to such a degree that i've repressed the knowledge of it's true nature.
and people's boundaries seem to extend to me being in public at all, it is not acceptable, or i would not have just gotten security called on me yesterday for walking into an earthbound and not interacting with anyone in any way along with the manager rushing up to me and explaining how i'm a negative person and their customers need to be kept safe from me. my very presence is harmful, and i should have known that from previous experiences, but i decided to go out in public anyway showing a complete lack of respect for everyone.
Enail wrote:-Your ex sounds like an abusive asshole, and I'm sorry you had to go through that.  
she identified someone she could suppress and control, and made resourceful use of that to help her failing self confidence and feelings of powerlessness. she did what she needed to do for her own well being without harming another person.
Enail wrote:-I think it's normal and okay to be frustrated about not having an experience you want, and as long as you're not blaming or resenting women for it, it doesn't mean you're entitled.  
again, i am not permitted to disagree with the idea that it is tied to a subconscious contempt for and dehumanization of women.
i still don't understand how women being lonely works in this case though, i am curious about that (but not arguing please nobody think that)
Enail wrote:-I don't believe people have to have X skill or contribute in Y way to society or any individual to deserve to live.  
basically all i hear about ethics lately every single day revolves around this concept (not having specific skills, but being valuable in some way to somebody, and not deserve, but have a right to continue living, phrasing usually "you don't have an inherent right to live just because you're a human, it's what you do with your life that determines that" or something to that effect). it's also always at the core of any abortion debate i read, for example, and is part of why some of the most famous pro choice people also vocally support infanticide at the mother's discretion, i.e. just because it's technically a human doesn't mean anything, if it's just a burdensome parasite from the perspective of the people who have to deal with it.
and again disagreeing with any of that means i would be a misogynist who hates all women and wants them to die from complications giving birth to their rapist's child which i am not and don't want and please i don't want anyone to think that of me  i know everyone already hates me but i cna't deal with that

Enail wrote:From what I've seen of you, you do have positive traits,
this is completely baffling to read. i'm not sure what traits you could be talking about, because i've certainly never displayed any.
Enail wrote: and it's really cool that you can play so many instruments and compose!
i can't. not anymore. violin, bass, guitar, piano, my fingers just won't move the right way it just turns into literal noise and broken strings. it's like somethings physically wrong with my fingers, they won't move the way fingers are supposed to anymore when they're touching an instrument. things i've done every day since i wasa  teenager and i haven't been able to even do them at all for a couple weeks now(i think? again, time issues...). they're just gone. even looking at the music room gives me horrible painful anxiety now. and i never could compose, i could write about a second or two of a couple instruments and then not know where to go from there. and you would be the only one to think it's cool. it's another thing that i've heard over and over again is a red flag and universal dealbreaker, even to women who are  also musicians. it's always repeated that musicians are unreliable, unwilling to commit, always cheat on their partners, are usually mentally ill, are immature, are wierd introverts, are misogynist, dont' care about other people, past highschool are pathetic weirdos hanging onto juvenile fantasies of being famous rock stars, are too lazy to actually try to work a REAL job... so on...
Enail wrote: I think it's pretty normal to have trouble with skills that you normally can do when you're under extreme stress and anxiety; that sounds really scary and frustrating for you, but try to remember that it might be a symptom rather than a permanent state. And the same with the job issue.
being on medication and seeing therapists since i was 14 years old with no positive changes spells 'PERMANENT' pretty clearly to me. in big red capital letters on the inside of my eyelids.
Enail wrote:I'm sorry you're having so much trouble with the way other people react to you, and that you've been finding treatment unhelpful. Could you talk to your therapist/doctors about that and ask if there are other treatments you could try?
done. many times. different drugs. different therapies. drugs stop working. therapies go nowhere. just get told i don't wnat to get better. maybe because they're trying to treat anxiety rather than antisocial personality disorder.

I just want to know what i'm supposed to do with my existence that could actually be of benefit to society or to someone somewhere since i can't do any of the things i thought i was going to and anything romantic is out of the question forever since i've hit 24 and i don't know what to do about anything

i just wanted to end up living in northern europe somewhere with a wife and daughter and a dog somewhere i could watch the ocean in the distance and write music and make the 'pilgrimage' out to liepzig every year and just enjoy life and create beautiful things that could help other people in pain the way music used to help me and none of that can ever happen now i've failed and there's no way to just press start and select 'replay mission' it's just gone foreverand i don't even know what i keep doing to deserve it

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Re: what is it i am expected to do.

Post by Prajnaparamita on Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:55 pm

Hey Atlach, if you're going to bring me into this, listen, I'm sorry that I ghosted on you all those years back. But here's the thing. I was massively depressed, in an abusive relationship that was getting worse and worse, dropping out of school and actually at the time, just a month away from making a suicide attempt and ending up in the hospital again. I didn't cut contact with you because of anything you did or said, I cut contact because I was massively, overwhelmingly depressed and I just couldn't anymore, for anyone in my life. I fell off the face of the earth completely, and cut contact with a lot of people in my life, and it was months, maybe years until I got into a better place. There wasn't any malicious intent, merely a depressed person who had no more energy for anything in life anymore. Does that make sense?

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Re: what is it i am expected to do.

Post by Enail on Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:03 pm

<mod>Hey, AtlatchNacha, we ask people not to talk in threads about interpersonal conflicts elsewhere with other members of this forum or DNL Prime, so I've taken out a piece of your last post, and if you want to talk about problems you're having with people, could you please stick to examples from elsewhere in the future? (And just so it's clear, this doesn't at all mean you're in trouble or that I'm mad at you, just that it's something we want to make sure you know for next time) </mod>

(Non-modly reply coming soon  Smile )
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Re: what is it i am expected to do.

Post by AtlachNacha on Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:10 pm

Werel wrote:Hi AtlachNacha, welcome back! I'm sorry you're hurting so much right now, it sounds like you're in a really rough place.

I agree very much with everything Enail said. Lots of what you're saying doesn't sound true or even plausible to me (and I'm a woman, so I'm allowed to dispute those premises, by your logic Razz)-- but that's one of the lousiest things about anxiety, its ability to convince you that even implausibly negative things are true. Do you think it could possibly help to occasionally write down what you're feeling, then go back and cross out stuff like "I know" and "I recognize" and "it is clear", phrasing that implies undeniable truth, and replace it with things like "I perceive" and "I suspect" and "it seems like"? Reminding myself that the miserable tales my brain is spinning for me are not facts can be helpful to me when I get into depression spirals. And do you feel this way all the time? If not, would writing down the way you think about things when you're not in crisis mode be useful, so you can refer to them later and remember that there are non-jerkbrain parts of your brain too?

And just to reiterate what Enail's said, there is nothing about being a virgin that makes you a bad person or dangerous; there is nothing you could have done within your relationship to deserve abuse; there is no "science" that says that you will commit violent crimes, especially since you very much don't want to; people reacting to you with displeasure or avoidance does not necessarily mean you've done something to them (jerks exist! You didn't make them into jerks!); and you don't need to be or do anything special in order to deserve to live. Life isn't meted out on a meritocratic basis. It's laudable and excellent that you don't want your life to cause anyone else harm, and I think with that mindset, you absolutely have the ability to make a positive impact on others' lives-- but first, your priority ought to be getting yourself to a place where you're not suffering so much.

So, like Enail said, are there other treatments you could try? Do you think your current therapist is a good fit--do they click with you, do they get what you're saying, do they have helpful things to say in return?

oh hi werel it is nice to see you again you are cool nice person (so are you enail thank you for spelling my name right wait did you have to copy and paste it to do that it's kind of a weird name) please do not call police and have me sent to psych ward it would not be good times
today's klonopin+adderall mix (am on regular schedule now so no more taking too much and hearing voices and going to the hospital) has just now taken effect so phrasing will probably sound drunken for a bit. actually sounds a bit caveman-y so far

I remember non--crisis mode thinking and there is a sudden backlash when i remember "standing up for myself" i.e. rebelling against people i should be listening to and rejecting instead of listening instead of beinga  good ally http://everydayfeminism.com/2017/05/allies-say-this-instead-defensive/ and then i'm caught between that and the shame of feeling like i've gone against my heritage by worrying about what otherpeople think about my appearance and things rather than just going 'fuck them they need to deal with it' and shoving a safety pin through my nose or telling them they have a "NICE. HEAD." or something because that's what the people who i grew up around and think of me as family would do and i don't know which is right and then i see something about how individualism is selfish and "choice feminism" is an insidious toxic force of evil and i don't know.

people are not jerks for no reason. people display behaviour that can be described as jerkish due to complex chain reactions of psychological and biological and chemical and environmental factors that one can be aware of and redirect and defuse and my inability to anticipate and react adeptly as so many other people do is a shortcoming
furthermore if i am the only person they act jerkish towards the problem is logically not them

new therapist just started recently. might actually help more. he's less of an asshole than previous therapist was. not a rivethead like she was though. so less direct understanding of the subcultural umbrellas i obsess over. but a musician and songwriter. and immediately intuitively understands certain things i show him to a degree nobody else i've met ever has. like. he's an older guy. bluegrass musician. had never heard of cybergoth but i showed him this because it was significant at the time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgs8ujqR-vk
and one of her convention videos and he just... got it. understood the symbolism of the mask+goggles+cyberlox combo and the movements of the dance and all the other contrasting elements and the seeming contradiction of the gigantic unrestrained smile that's always somehow visible through her completely opaque mask and he just fully understood the basics of the subculture where my friends (and more than a few youtube commenters, mainly on other dancers in the style though) just reacted with kinda "the fuck is this shit? why does she have plastic tubes in her hair? this is stupid." and he understood why it had significance to me. immediately. and now i've gotten him into CygnosiC (the band in the video, though that's a remix, also the guitar part in this is too cool not to share https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQ3ml374IoU)
i kinda feel like carol was losing patience with me and thought i was a disgusting moron toward the end but this guy i feel like sincerely thinks highly of me in some ways? and has a guitar and a banjo just sitting there in his office and a welcoming attitude towards impromptu jam sessions. i'm almost hopeful.

also starting to think maybe REBT is just a leech jar, at least the way previous therapist practiced it.

so i guess you're both on something with the different treatment thing, it's just that it was about a year or two before we found someone fitting what the analysts recommended (psychodynamic as opposed to REBT/RET, and an actual psychiatrist handling the psych meds instead of just a general practitioner.) that was
1.accepting new clients
2.accepted united
3.was willing to speak to and interact with men. (this was wierd, previous therapist had to contact her to figure out what was going on)
so i've only had a couple sessions with new doc. (actual doc! not md, but doctorate, rather than LCSW like previous therapist. and i have a psychiatrist regulating my meds.)

i think i feel a bit better now. i don't know if i needed to get things out of my system or i just needed the drugs but either way. sorry for vomiting all over everything.

just played through bwv 999 real quick (first thing i ever learned, lulled my ex out of a panic attack with it, important to me even though it's just a basic beginner student piece.) (link for those not familiar with 17th(or is it 16th? 18th? WHEN WAS BACH) century church music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnIUq_jMHGc) i seem to be able to play guitar again. haltingly and clumsily but it's back a little bit. maybe the rest will come back. maybe i don't have a brain tumor.

this was all set off by being kicked out of earthbound for looking shady. reopened old wounds i guess.

I said some fucked up things in all this. might put a warning at the top or just delete it

i am so all over the place mentally right now this must be a trip to read.

wait, i remember something in a previous conversation. with someone.

um

i keep hearing that being a virgin after 24 is universally a red flag and a dealbreaker for various reasons, either the statistical link with violence or because "there's no point in risking pregnancy/stds for someone who won't be able to satisfy you/you'll have to waste time teaching/anyone who wants to have sex will have done so by that point unless theres' a really good reason why nobody has wanted them" that men have an obligation to sexually satisfy their partners and not doing so is abuse,
 and that male subs, even in BDSM culture, are considered disgusting, or even the idea considered offensive to women because "no self respecting domme would accept someone who gives their loyalty away so easily" and things about how the man has to be A REAL MAN and try to be dominant before being broken or there's no way for the woman to be satisfied, even if she's a dominant... so.... are these attitudes actually as universal as they seem? one of my friends who is into kink stuff says the anti-sub thing is really weird and has to be an outlier, but it's all i've ever seen. or can remember seeing, and he's a dude, so....

female perspectives? on either thing? how universal are these ideas in either feminist or otherwise circles? because they seem pretty universal everywhere as far as i can tell.
EDIT: WHY AM I WORRYING ABOUT THIS WHEN IT"S ALREADY BEEN ESTABLISHED AS IRRELEVANT WHAT EVEN




Prajnaparamita wrote:Hey Atlach, if you're going to bring me into this, listen, I'm sorry that I ghosted on you all those years back. But here's the thing. I was massively depressed, in an abusive relationship that was getting worse and worse, dropping out of school and actually at the time, just a month away from making a suicide attempt and ending up in the hospital again. I didn't cut contact with you because of anything you did or said, I cut contact because I was massively, overwhelmingly depressed and I just couldn't anymore, for anyone in my life. I fell off the face of the earth completely, and cut contact with a lot of people in my life, and it was months, maybe years until I got into a better place. There wasn't any malicious intent, merely a depressed person who had no more energy for anything in life anymore. Does that make sense?
LAST MINUTE ADDITION CUT IN LIGHT OF MOD MESSAGE. (sorry) INSTEAD:
Prajna, i have an apology and stuff for you, can i PM or email it to you or do you still have me blocked?

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Re: what is it i am expected to do.

Post by Werel on Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:44 pm

I am glad you've found a new therapist who's a better match for you! It sounds like he's a pretty on-the-level dude, and it's awesome that he gets your aesthetics in an intuitive way. Also glad you're feeling a bit more clear-headed. Hope the new medication works out better than previous combinations.

AtlachNacha wrote:all of these are universal feminist talking points that i see posted and discussed everywhere and if disputed or questioned or so much as asked to be clarified (i cannot figure out how to fix the grammar here i'm sorry i guess that's degrading too) result in the person being singled out, dogpiled, threatened, called a misogynist, rape apologist, mra, pedophile, every horriblet hing imaginable, and eventually doxxed and publically shamed and i cannot handle that i cannot handle being any more hated than i already am and if i had hundreds of people flooding my email inbox with encouragements to kill myself in all caps i wouldn't be able to handlethat.  i don't know if this is a test kind of thing but i know the rules i know how it works i'm being a good boy okay
I think you've been hanging out in some really vicious corners of the internet if even questioning "talking points" is enough to get you doxxed. Maybe you should not hang out in those parts of the internet, because they sound like they're full of shitty people. I don't hang out at Stormfront because I know it's full of shitty people. I also don't consider their "talking points" unassailably true just because someone posted them. So you probably shouldn't unquestioningly swallow everything you read on the internet either, even if it labels itself "progressive" or "feminist" or any other label you align with. It's a disservice to yourself and others to turn off your critical thinking skills just because someone is yelling loudly at you to turn off your critical thinking skills and do what they say.

some things seem to have gotten twisted around here? no woman has ever found me attractive, i am a virgin because i drive everyone away and have nothing attractive or positive about me to keep them around. if i actually had redeeming qualities someone would've been at least momentarily interested.
It sounds like your jerkbrain is pretty invested in believing that you have no good qualities, but as a general thing? There are plenty of people out there who are virgins not because they have no redeeming qualities, nor because no one's ever been interested, but because it just hasn't happened. Maybe they didn't want it to, maybe some of their conditions have never been met, whatever. But not having done something is different than not having any good qualities.

AtlachNacha wrote:every single day a link comes down my facebook feed talking about a scientific study about how virgins and "beta males" are overwhelmingly statistically likely to commit violence against women, usually with a comment along the lines of "this is my suprised look". posted often by friends of my parents. people who were in the waiting room when i was born and have known me my entire life think i'm a horrible monster, (indirectly, because they don't know i'm a virgin.)
I know it can hurt to see people who are supposed to be on your team posting cruel things about groups you belong to. That's shitty of them, and they probably don't even realize how much of a negative impact they're having. But, because it is important to say this, I'm going to say it again:

Facebook isn't science.

Most of the "scientific studies" you're seeing are probably being hilariously misreported/exaggerated, because science journalism is A Problem (and I say this as a social scientist, so listen to me! Razz). They are also possibly just not science at all, rather than opinion pieces. Even if they are legit science, with "valid" methods and results, they don't mean anything about you. Social science is about the aggregate, not the individual. They don't mean anything concrete about what you will do, who you are, or how your life will go.

Also, have you ever considered getting off Facebook? A lot of people (anecdotally, and backed up by SCIENCE!! Razz) find that it aggravates depression and anxiety to an insane degree. If it's just making you miserable, why not stop reading your feed on a regular basis?

AtlachNacha wrote:people are not jerks for no reason. people display behaviour that can be described as jerkish due to complex chain reactions of psychological and biological and chemical and environmental factors that one can be aware of and redirect and defuse and my inability to anticipate and react adeptly as so many other people do is a shortcoming
furthermore if i am the only person they act jerkish towards the problem is logically not them
You make a very good point: people are not jerks for no reason. That's a compassionate view of it. However, explanation isn't exculpation-- having a reason for being a jerk doesn't mean it's okay to be a jerk. Plus, you can't tell if you're the only one they're jerkish towards-- you're not following them around observing the rest of their interactions 24/7, right? (Also, I've never been to an Earthbound, but based on their website, uh... well, I have some thoughts on who their clientele is likely to be, and am not very surprised that said clientele was kneejerk exclusionary).

AtlachNacha wrote:female perspectives? on either thing? how universal are these ideas in either feminist or otherwise circles? because they seem pretty universal everywhere as far as i can tell.
Aiight, putting on my FEMALE AUTHORITY BADGE

1) There's no such thing as a universal female perspective, nor a universal feminist perspective, nor a universal progressive perspective.

2)
AtlachNacha wrote:"there's no point in risking pregnancy/stds for someone who won't be able to satisfy you
The rhetoric you're quoting here is usually deployed when talking about women's interest in one-night stands generally, not specifically with inexperienced men. There are plenty of sexually experienced men who are shitty in bed.

3)
AtlachNacha wrote:you'll have to waste time teaching/anyone who wants to have sex will have done so by that point unless theres' a really good reason why nobody has wanted them"
I am extremely attracted to some men who are sexually inexperienced, and wouldn't consider that a "waste of time" so much as a bonus. I'm an outlier on that point, and I acknowledge that I'm an outlier, but I know there are other women share my opinion, even if they're not numerous. Similarly, I've known men (and women) who were virgins well into their 20s who didn't have a "really good reason" that they hadn't had sex. Some of them got reactions like "what, seriously?" or "how the fuck?" or "NUH-UH" when they did finally become sexually active and told their partners they weren't experienced. So all that's bullshit as far as being "universal."

4)
AtlachNacha wrote:that men have an obligation to sexually satisfy their partners and not doing so is abuse,
what

I've never even heard that argument and it is frankly so ridiculous that I have nothing to say to it other than "what." ABUSE. Get the fuck outta here (not you, whoever claimed that)

5) BDSM: No idea, no contacts in that scene, but you could always check out the Kink-Aware Professionals directory if you think a supplementary therapist to just have a couple of well-informed convos about sub self-loathing would be useful.
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Re: what is it i am expected to do.

Post by AtlachNacha on Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:57 pm

Werel wrote:Aiight, putting on my FEMALE AUTHORITY BADGE

1) There's no such thing as a universal female perspective, nor a universal feminist perspective, nor a universal progressive perspective.

OH GOD OH GDO I DIDNT REALIZE HOW SEXIST THAT SOUNDDED WHY DIDN'T I REALIZE OH GOD I'M SORRY FUCK FUCK FUCK WHY CAN'T I STOP FUCKING UP WHAT DO I DONOW

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Re: what is it i am expected to do.

Post by Werel on Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:01 pm

What you do now is not freak out about a comment which you alone have identified as sexist. Wink

Really, the ability to be like "oh, whoops, my bad" in a calm way is a very good skill in life, especially if you're trying to fit those "good ally" models which seem to be impacting your thinking so strongly. Another thing to do is not extrapolate "I can't stop fucking up" from "oops, I think I've made a mistake"--don't turn every "whoops" into a referendum on your feelings of worthlessness.  

Those are two pretty tough things to do, if you've got deep wells of defensiveness (I empathize!), but they're also crucial to having useful conversations about tough things. I hope that was an earnest "what do I do," not just me blowing hot air where it wasn't requested!
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Re: what is it i am expected to do.

Post by Enail on Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:02 pm

It's okay! It's okay to make a mistake or say something that doesn't quite sound right. It's not a big deal if you're talking to people in good faith!
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Re: what is it i am expected to do.

Post by AtlachNacha on Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:07 pm

EDIT SHUT UP ATLACH YOU ARE MAKING EVERYTHIGN WORSE


Last edited by AtlachNacha on Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: what is it i am expected to do.

Post by AtlachNacha on Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:10 pm

EDIT: SHUT UP ATLACH

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Re: what is it i am expected to do.

Post by Werel on Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:14 pm

I know that loop. If you're already being bad, why not be balls-to-the-wall bad, right? Laughing

Best thing to do with that, IME, is nothing. Literally do nothing until you're not tempted to go make problems for yourself. Think, reflect a bit, breathe deeply, refrain from actions with consequences while you're inclined to go stirring shit up.

I'm sorry you haven't had experience with people being forgiving, that's lousy. But no, there's no "price" on an internet forum full of anonymous strangers beyond somebody saying "hey, I didn't like your post!" or "I have things to say back to you!" There is no secret Nerdlounge Police fixing to track down your Social Security number. Wink


Last edited by Werel on Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: what is it i am expected to do.

Post by AtlachNacha on Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:20 pm

Werel wrote:I know that loop. If you're already being bad, why not be balls-to-the-wall bad, right? Laughing

Best thing to do with that, IME, is nothing. Literally do nothing until you're not tempted to go make problems for yourself. Think, reflect a bit, breathe deeply, refrain from actions with consequences while you're inclined to go stirring shit up.

If I had that much control I probably wouldn't be in this deep. I basically feel like a passenger most of the time. Not sure how other people have the control that they do. Not sure why my mother always said I chose to feel bad and panic when they always have felt like sudden external forces.

Werel wrote:
I'm sorry you haven't had experience with people being forgiving, that's lousy. But no, there's no "price" on an internet forum full of anonymous strangers beyond somebody saying "hey, I didn't like your post!" or "I have things to say back to you!" There is no secret Nerdlounge Police fixing to track down your Social Security number. Wink

You know my real name. You have a LOT of power with that.

But I edited that out specifically because I thought it would be insulting/disrespectful to both of you and now it's there again forever. No taking it back now.

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Re: what is it i am expected to do.

Post by Werel on Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:28 pm

FWIW, I don't know and/or don't remember your name if you mentioned it in the past, so no worries there! I'll edit out your original comment, if you like.

AtlachNacha wrote:If I had that much control I probably wouldn't be in this deep. I basically feel like a passenger most of the time. Not sure how other people have the control that they do. Not sure why my mother always said I chose to feel bad and panic when they always have felt like sudden external forces.
Panic can certainly feel like an external force, maybe more so than any other emotion, but it's useful to remember that it is actually internal and physiological. It only "exists" in the form of your adrenaline and elevated pulse and so on; it's the passenger, not you. I'm sure your therapist has given you a bunch of tools for dealing with it, do any of them help?
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Re: what is it i am expected to do.

Post by Hirundo Bos on Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:42 pm

Hi, AtlasNacha. Sounds like you're having a pretty noisy inner monologue going on here, combined with an anxiety feedback loop. Those can be painful, and scary, and stressful. I have a few of them myself, though they haven't reached quite those levels of stress… there was an evening, for example, last winter, when a certain political discussion reached a peak on Twitter, and I found myself, well, not quite able to agree with the majority of people I usually align with, and ended up having a public argument with myself over the guilt I felt about that. And then came the guilt over dumping my own guilty emotions on others, and the guilt over obsessing publicly over that, and so on…

Does any of this sound familiar at all? To me, I think it's partly a cognitive thing, partly about anxiety. The cognitive thing is that I chew over things I hear and read, over and over, until they kind of get stuck in my brain, like they've been my own thoughts all along. It can make other people's point of view seem like a statement of hard reality. I also repeat them to myself so many times that they begin to lose most nuance. A statement like "this is not a very good way to flirt," can in my head turn into "anything vaguely resembling this is EVIL, and I've probably done it whether I've been aware of it or not"… which sound a bit similar to some of the inner monologue you've been describing.

The anxiety part is that I'm at the same time a) concerned with how my actions affect others, b) not quite able to tell how my actions affect others, because my social calibration isn't the best, and c) aware that some of my actions actually do have a negative effect on others. So then again, I chew things over, magnify, exaggerate, and sometimes end up in full panic.

I don't have any very good solutions to this, except for the things that generally work with anxiety – that is, gradual and controlled exposure to the things that sets anxiety off, preferably in cooperation with a therapist. This will hopefully help make it a bit less scary to entertain the possibility that one might have done something wrong, in turn making it easier to cope with other people's disapproval – and one's own.
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Re: what is it i am expected to do.

Post by AtlachNacha on Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:52 am

Werel wrote:I think you've been hanging out in some really vicious corners of the internet if even questioning "talking points" is enough to get you doxxed. Maybe you should not hang out in those parts of the internet, because they sound like they're full of shitty people. I don't hang out at Stormfront because I know it's full of shitty people. I also don't consider their "talking points" unassailably true just because someone posted them. So you probably shouldn't unquestioningly swallow everything you read on the internet either, even if it labels itself "progressive" or "feminist" or any other label you align with. It's a disservice to yourself and others to turn off your critical thinking skills just because someone is yelling loudly at you to turn off your critical thinking skills and do what they say.

This is just about the only even slightly feminist-y place i've seen where that isn't how it works. even individual feminists i know IRL will pull at least the "if you disagree you're part of the problem"  on even minor things. I'm still fearing that this is a test and hell will break loose if i admit to being critical of any of those points.

I feel like there's not so much vicious corners of the internet so much as the internet, which is inherently vicious, and then inexplicable clearings of anomalous peace scattered here and there. (anomalous peace. band name.)

Werel wrote:It sounds like your jerkbrain is pretty invested in believing that you have no good qualities, but as a general thing? There are plenty of people out there who are virgins not because they have no redeeming qualities, nor because no one's ever been interested, but because it just hasn't happened. Maybe they didn't want it to, maybe some of their conditions have never been met, whatever. But not having done something is different than not having any good qualities.  

Well, not wanting it to happen and my 'conditions' not being met have not been factors. (at least i think, depending on what you mean by conditions.) I haven't met anyone else's conditions.

More to the point, women irl will generally not speak to me unless introduced by someone else. As in, basically borderline forced by social pressure to talk to me. Once out of the situation, ghosted. Always.

And I honestly cannot name a single positive quality i could have and nobody else seems to be able to either. unless there's been like twenty mentions that i can't see because that's a possibility. also i'm trying to figure out if this wierd glowy shit is a visual hallucination, my video card throwing a fit AGAIN, or a trick of reflected light from passing cars.

Werel wrote:Facebook isn't science.

Most of the "scientific studies" you're seeing are probably being hilariously misreported/exaggerated, because science journalism is A Problem (and I say this as a social scientist, so listen to me! Razz). They are also possibly just not science at all, rather than opinion pieces. Even if they are legit science, with "valid" methods and results, they don't mean anything about you. Social science is about the aggregate, not the individual. They don't mean anything concrete about what you will do, who you are, or how your life will go.

But it's impossible to live my life in complete isolation, so other people's perceptions do factor in heavily, and if peoples perceptions are overwhelmingly that I am likely to be dangerous/evil, that's going to have a significant impact, and I'm not sure what to do to counteract that, when... I have no perceptible possibility of losing my virginity, and it's very difficult to prove that i am not a dangerous ticking time bomb of rape and mass murder, especially if people refuse to speak to me in the first place.

Reality, objectivity and logic don't matter nearly as much as collective perception, sometimes.

Werel wrote:Also, have you ever considered getting off Facebook? A lot of people (anecdotally, and backed up by SCIENCE!! Razz) find that it aggravates depression and anxiety to an insane degree. If it's just making you miserable, why not stop reading your feed on a regular basis?

Would mean completely cutting off contact with the people that do still tolerate me. maybe i'll just unfollow everyone but the classical musicans and fellow anxiety sufferers? a point my dad keeps making is most of his friends were 70s-80s punks and a lot of them were disowned homeless teenagers at one point or another, and so the women especially have a LOT of trauma and baggage related to men taking advantage of them...

Werel wrote:You make a very good point: people are not jerks for no reason. That's a compassionate view of it. However, explanation isn't exculpation-- having a reason for being a jerk doesn't mean it's okay to be a jerk. Plus, you can't tell if you're the only one they're jerkish towards-- you're not following them around observing the rest of their interactions 24/7, right? (Also, I've never been to an Earthbound, but based on their website, uh... well, I have some thoughts on who their clientele is likely to be, and am not very surprised that said clientele was kneejerk exclusionary).

If i have mutual acquaintances/friends who are angry at me for mentioning the incident and insist that i either made the whole thing up or imagined it because it's so out of character for them?
(that's not the case here, but other cases. this one my friends know her and she thinks her husband is an energy vampire or something, i told them about this and they were like "oh yeah totally she's nuts we've got stories")

haven't seen their website hold on...
Yeah, not so much like the models. random 'mall-folk' and the occasional... 'beginner hippie'/white-dude-with-dreads walking stereotype/stoners, very occasionally Ravers, steampunkers, (some relevant things are sold there) or mallgoths there for alchemical/occult symbol jewelry. i.e. broad variety and what should be and usually is a mostly chill and accepting group. only time i've had a problem there, and the lower ranking employee was really nice and kept trying to politely and respectfully de-escalate the whole thing and understood immediately that i just have anxiety and seemed to think her manager was overreacting.

and the security guard was cool, which NEVER HAPPENS.

IDK. I keep cycling between, "manager was a jerk" and "i had to have done something to provoke it"

Werel wrote:
AtlachNacha wrote:female perspectives? on either thing? how universal are these ideas in either feminist or otherwise circles? because they seem pretty universal everywhere as far as i can tell.
Aiight, putting on my FEMALE AUTHORITY BADGE

1) There's no such thing as a universal female perspective, nor a universal feminist perspective, nor a universal progressive perspective.

k,let's try this again:

This apparently didn't sound quite how i meant it.
"female perspectiveS" as in plural if possible, not one universal feminist cabal decree. And female perspectives because I feel like (perhaps fallaciously) that several women's experiences might paint a more reliable picture than second hand from my somewhat isolated male friends. If that's a wrong way of thinking about it, I'm sorry, what would be a better way of finding a good perspective on it/A better way of asking?

Werel wrote:
The rhetoric you're quoting here is usually deployed when talking about women's interest in one-night stands generally, not specifically with inexperienced men. There are plenty of sexually experienced men who are shitty in bed.

directly quoted/paraphrased from a conversation specifically about dating virgins. (response from women was almost entirely "god no never do that someone with no experience cannot have a healthy relationship in any way")

which, wait, how does a virgin get stds

Werel wrote:
I am extremely attracted to some men who are sexually inexperienced, and wouldn't consider that a "waste of time" so much as a bonus. I'm an outlier on that point, and I acknowledge that I'm an outlier, but I know there are other women share my opinion, even if they're not numerous. Similarly, I've known men (and women) who were virgins well into their 20s who didn't have a "really good reason" that they hadn't had sex. Some of them got reactions like "what, seriously?" or "how the fuck?" or "NUH-UH" when they did finally become sexually active and told their partners they weren't experienced. So all that's bullshit as far as being "universal."

first i'm hearing of this perspective. hopefully not the last?

another aspect that's frustrating in a way is
not sure how to put this.
i learn skills very quickly. (been playing violin for according to people who've been paying attention and have their perception of time intact, 2-3 months, and can reliably improvise simply in certain genres. this, i'm told, is not normal. I know they're not the same thing, but... indicative of certain mental abilities that could be cross-applied?)
i fantasize about being ordered around in bed, or taught
and female friends/acquaintances post links to articles with long lists of 'how to please your partner' things directed at men with comments applied like "EVERY MAN SHOULD BE REQUIRED TO READ THIS DAMNIT UGH" and i always know every single point already
and they complain about dudes they sleep with getting pissy and offended when asked/instructed to do a particular thing (like how dare you assume i am not a sex god who knows every aspect of your body better then you yourself do THE INSOLENCE or at least that's how they characterize it)
so it's like.
I wish i was actually physically/mentally/emotionally non-repulsive enough to be of service here, because i think i might have potential but no way to put it to use? and my minor amount of non-penetrative experience with my ex got her all in a warm glow and talking about marriage so i'm pretty sure i could be useful in relieving some of these frustrations a lot of people have if i weren't.
y'know.
gross.
I want to be useful.

holy shit i do have positive qualities where the fuck did those come from. (those ARE positive qualities right? some of that at least?)

Werel wrote:4)
AtlachNacha wrote:that men have an obligation to sexually satisfy their partners and not doing so is abuse,
what

I've never even heard that argument and it is frankly so ridiculous that I have nothing to say to it other than "what." ABUSE. Get the fuck outta here (not you, whoever claimed that)

Yeah, kind of an overused and sometimes misused argument i guess, but i feel it needs to be made here: try switching the genders on that one, right? oh wait, that's been common belief before and still is in a lot of places. look how that turns out. WHY DO I LET THESE MONSTERS INTO My HEAD OH RIGHT BECAUSE THEY SCREECH LOUDER THAN MY OWN BRAINWAVES. wait, there's a solution, brainwave entrainment tracks at 400 DECIBELS. (probably wouldn't work. probably...)

i hear the male-obligation version above is sort-of part of orthodox judaism though, and a mutual version is most definitely in the bible. (switch 'abuse' for 'sin' or what have you in each case obviously)  if one were looking for an explanation of where they got the idea. But i've seriously heard it many times in non-religious contexts, from both men and women, and as a justification for cheating. (sometimes described as a form of neglect rather than abuse.)

Werel wrote:5) BDSM: No idea, no contacts in that scene, but you could always check out the Kink-Aware Professionals directory if you think a supplementary therapist to just have a couple of well-informed convos about sub self-loathing would be useful.

absolutely nothing anywhere near here. also have no income of my own and no insurance of my own. can you imagine asking your parents to take you to a special therapist so you can eventually be a good little slave to a tall strong redheaded woman in a pinstripe suit with a- okay let's stop that right there you get my point. unless there's an anonymous pro-bono alternative. (which i suppose might be a version of this forum done up in black and red with chains and straps hanging down everywhere.)

but phone calls in the background. friends have friends that they want me to talk to on that point.

and i have a friend who wanted piano lessons and was willing to trade some of his time and services as a personal trainer. maybe i can be pretty eventually? maybe? wait. people called me pretty in the style thread. that happened. *checks* yes, that did happen. there's public record of it. my madness cannot erase it.

and the meds seem to be working again taking the morning and evening doses simultaneously (though i still feel stumbly-drunk) maybe i just need them adjusted?

and i have intelligent educated badass feminists disputing all the things i was told i wasn't allowed to dispute without being an enemy of feminism in it's entirety. so that means... i can relax on that? i can dismiss the insane elements?i can admit they're insane? (bracing for shitstorm on the off chance...) I can disagree with individual feminists that's allowed?

so then i'm back to trying to alter my body language perception and projection and verbal phrasing and 'social calibration' i guess(whatever the hell that actually means i still do not know). maybe doc bluegrass will have something for that? (that's it, that's his name now.)

am i allowed to feel better now?
am i allowed to feel hopeful now?
i keep feeling like the answer to those questions is no but i feel those things right now regardless.
I'm sorry for dropping so much of this on you, and I thank you for your saint like patience.
is there anything else i need to apologize or make reparations of some kind for right now?

!: mr Bos, some interesting points, give me a sec?

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Re: what is it i am expected to do.

Post by AtlachNacha on Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:38 am

Hirundo Bos wrote:...I chew over things I hear and read, over and over, until they kind of get stuck in my brain, like they've been my own thoughts all along. It can make other people's point of view seem like a statement of hard reality.

This is definitely a thing that happens with me to a degree. I seem to remember there being a term for it. or several.

Hirundo Bos wrote:I also repeat them to myself so many times that they begin to lose most nuance. A statement like "this is not a very good way to flirt," can in my head turn into "anything vaguely resembling this is EVIL, and I've probably done it whether I've been aware of it or not"…

Here's where our experiences differ, I think, because i can remember seperately the "this is not a good way to flirt" and the "almost all of you have done this at one point or another without realizing it and it makes you part of the problem, part of the patriarchy, and part of rape culture and you need to carefully analyze your actions and how they negatively impact women in the future." occuring in separate instances. (Note that last bit of the second paraphrase being just about one of the most powerful possible weapons against someone with both anxiety and guilt issues, eh?) They don't so much morph into bad things in my head, as there already actually was someone there when I was 11 telling me directly and unambiguously that I was going to become a rapist. And then people saying that statistically almost all men do eventually. And then other people telling that that was a straw feminist made up to make feminists look bad and I'm clearly opposed to feminism and equality. When i'm pretty fully in support of all manner of equality, that was just a traumatic thing that happened, like i'm not atheist just because of westboro or whatever, and regardless TANGENT WEEE

Anyway, yeah, I do magnify things sometimes, but I usually come down from that and see it for what it originally was eventually. Just lots of things come pre-magnified, (in many cases because the person saying them has trauma and anxiety of their own, I'm sure) which is harder to deal with. For me at least.

Hirundo Bos wrote:The anxiety part is that I'm at the same time a) concerned with how my actions affect others, b) not quite able to tell how my actions affect others, because my social calibration isn't the best, and c) aware that some of my actions actually do have a negative effect on others. So then again, I chew things over, magnify, exaggerate, and sometimes end up in full panic.

check, check, check.

Hirundo Bos wrote:I don't have any very good solutions to this, except for the things that generally work with anxiety – that is, gradual and controlled exposure to the things that sets anxiety off, preferably in cooperation with a therapist. This will hopefully help make it a bit less scary to entertain the possibility that one might have done something wrong, in turn making it easier to cope with other people's disapproval – and one's own.

This lines up with the professional opinions, but the plan keeps falling to shit for me. Just about every professional i've talked to seems to agree the only way I'm going to improve is to have positive social experiences in general, positive experiences with women in general, then in more flirtatious contexts and so on down etc. but... I tend to just have negative ones. And then I'll have one positive and it'll be like it never happened. Entire people get erased because my "screamy passenger"** decides they were too much of a positive influence*. Also... "in cooperation with a therapist." i'm envisioning going to a goth club (well, goth NIGHT, in this hole) with my therapist now. It's a funny mental image... Wait, that might actually be a good idea, he might be up for that. I'll run it by him.

*Journal? Just full of positive experiences and people in vivid detail? And do you have this problem?

** (seriously does anyone else's anxiety feel like a separate entity dexter-style? (i mean, without the hallucinations or full personification, but...) I recall using these two to describe the feeling to my therapist: https://www.google.com/search?q=crona+and+ragnarok&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS725US725&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwia-o_Hue7UAhWMOCYKHUdLAoMQ_AUIBigB&biw=1920&bih=974 )

Anyway, we seem to have a lot of the same thought patterns. a lot of what you said sounds very familiar. ANXIETY BROS. woo. You've given me some ideas. Thanks for chiming in!

trying to phrase well wishes to everyone in the thread and coming up blank. I HOPE GOOD THINGS HAPPEN. TO ALL OF YOU. there!

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Re: what is it i am expected to do.

Post by Prajnaparamita on Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:02 pm

Hey Atlach, a couple more things:
(I’d quote shit directly that I’m responding to but honestly its all over the goddamn place so I’ll just make my statements in a list here.)

1.Yes, you are pretty. That’s a fact. Actually, if I weren’t already in a long term committed relationship with an incredibly pretty long haired nerdy boy with a super submissive kinky streak, you’d be my type.

2.You mentioned that you were tested negative for autism, so therefore your lack of social skills must be malicious on your part or something (idk how that would be the case given that you ACTIVELY WANT to have good social skills and not creep people out, but okay.) Have you ever considered that your lack of social skills might be because of your heightened emotional state? When we’re deeply afraid or anxious, our amygdala is going crazy, that’s our deepest, oldest part of the brain, the one we share with the most basic of fellow vertebrates. And when that part of the brain is in control, the pre-frontal cortex, the newer, higher level, more complex parts of our brain get shut off. That’s the part of the brain that does the stuff that makes us human in many ways, like verbal skills and, yes, picking up on social cues and signals. Its entirely possible I think that your social struggles are temporary and situational, your anxiety has just gotten so strong that it feels permanent, because your brain is spending so much time being completely flooded and overwhelmed and so in that primal fear state where subtle social cues don’t get processed.

3. Same I think goes for your struggles with doing math, reading or playing music, ect. I don’t mean to be harsh, but the amygdala is called the “lizard brain” for a reason, it controls what the most basic vertebrates do—fight, flight or freeze, and not much beyond that. When you’re there, in that highly emotional state or recovering from being there, basically everything else is shut off. And frankly from what you’re describing, in how you haven’t been able to do any of those things recently, but you have in the past, I think its just because you’ve been in a bad spot recently. And that emotional, survival part of your mind is working overtime, and everything else just gets shut down. Which also isn’t permanent, as you’ve learned and been able to do these things when you were better. I imagine that you’ve not lost anything, worst case scenario is likely that you’ll just be a little bit rusty when you start up again.

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Re: what is it i am expected to do.

Post by Werel on Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:07 pm

Hey AtlachNacha, seems like things are looking a little better, I'm glad if that's the case!

As for the internet being vicious: Yeah, it is. There are a lot of places on the internet where discourse is just about scoring points and "winning," not arriving at mutual understanding.  I hope this is one of the places that encourages the latter, that's what we're going for! Smile

AtlachNacha wrote:But it's impossible to live my life in complete isolation, so other people's perceptions do factor in heavily, and if peoples perceptions are overwhelmingly that I am likely to be dangerous/evil, that's going to have a significant impact, and I'm not sure what to do to counteract that
That's true. But there are always going to be people whose perceptions of you are negative, and all you can do is mitigate the danger or stress this poses to you directly. In your case, it might be about cultivating extremely nonthreatening body language, if that's a thing that seems to be a problem, or whatever other issues seem to crop up most often.

AtlachNacha wrote:"female perspectiveS" as in plural if possible, not one universal feminist cabal decree. And female perspectives because I feel like (perhaps fallaciously) that several women's experiences might paint a more reliable picture than second hand from my somewhat isolated male friends. If that's a wrong way of thinking about it, I'm sorry, what would be a better way of finding a good perspective on it/A better way of asking?
That sounds like a pretty practical way of thinking about it. And I certainly agree that a lot of firsthand female perspectives would give you a much more reliable picture of the range of experiences/opinions women have than some isolated dudes' impressions. (Cause... they don't know shit about being women, why would you ask a taxi driver what it's like to be a firefighter?)

AtlachNacha wrote:directly quoted/paraphrased from a conversation specifically about dating virgins. (response from women was almost entirely "god no never do that someone with no experience cannot have a healthy relationship in any way")
I see people saying horrible things about other groups all the time. I see people saying mean shit about women all the time. I don't agree with them or believe them, even though those beliefs affect me in ways I can't avoid. You're not obliged to internalize people's unjust stereotypes, even if it's difficult not to, even if they're widespread, even if they might have an impact on your life.

AtlachNacha wrote:holy shit i do have positive qualities where the fuck did those come from. (those ARE positive qualities right? some of that at least?)
Wanting to be useful to other people is definitely a positive quality, in my book! As are respectfulness, adaptability, etc. See, positive qualities!

AtlachNacha wrote:Yeah, kind of an overused and sometimes misused argument i guess, but i feel it needs to be made here: try switching the genders on that one, right? oh wait, that's been common belief before and still is in a lot of places. look how that turns out. WHY DO I LET THESE MONSTERS INTO My HEAD OH RIGHT BECAUSE THEY SCREECH LOUDER THAN MY OWN BRAINWAVES.
That's a good approach to a lot of arguments: does it make any fucking sense if applied to a different set of people? Obviously not all things will translate, but yeah, engage those critical thinking skills before you let some dumb internet argument worm its way into your inner monologue.

AtlachNacha wrote:and i have intelligent educated badass feminists disputing all the things i was told i wasn't allowed to dispute without being an enemy of feminism in it's entirety. so that means... i can relax on that? i can dismiss the insane elements?i can admit they're insane? (bracing for shitstorm on the off chance...) I can disagree with individual feminists that's allowed?
MY. GOD. YOU FIGURED IT OUT.

Yes. You don't have to agree with every single opinion held by every single person who applies a given label to themselves. It is thoroughly allowed. There are some opinions which are likely to be shared among most people of good character, and which arguing with will probably make lots of people not like you (e.g. "women are people of equal standing," or "ethnicity is not a determiner of human rights"). But on the finer points? You are allowed to think and dispute and ask questions. Nobody learns shit without disputing something, whether it be their own stances or others'. Not everyone will react well to your questions or opinions, and sometimes you may say things or ask questions which you regret later, but that's no reason to sit down and shut up and do as you're told for the rest of your life.

So, yes, I think you are allowed and even encouraged to feel hopeful! There are more opinions and people in the world than you've encountered so far, and not all of them are hostile to you and your existence.
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Re: what is it i am expected to do.

Post by Prajnaparamita on Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:32 pm

Right, and to add on to what Werel is saying, I consider myself a proud feminist, fighting back against sexism and the patriarchy as well as oppression in all forms is a major part of my identity and what I want to do with my life. And I disagree with some feminists, including even major influential ones like Gloria Steinem. For example, I believe that trans women are women too. There are plenty of feminists out there who aren't willing to accept that. I believe that porn in and of itself isn't a problem, and I myself enjoy plenty of it, there are also some feminists who disagree with that or would find that a problem. And I also feel strongly that sex work should be legalized so that sex workers can live openly and safely, without stigma. That's pretty strongly disputed in many corners of the feminist community. You are allowed to disagree with some things that other feminists say, even strongly. As long as you're still listing to women and being respectful and recognizing your privilege, I think its perfectly okay to be like "I hear what you're saying, but I don't see it that way".

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Re: what is it i am expected to do.

Post by jcorozza on Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:26 pm

Good to see you back, Atlach! There's a lot here, so if I responded to everything I would never go to bed tonight, so just some things that stick out to me. Something you said about your ex:
"she identified someone she could suppress and control, and made resourceful use of that to help her failing self confidence and feelings of powerlessness. she did what she needed to do for her own well being without harming another person."

It sounds like she hurt you, and you are a person. Talking to other women while you are dating another is not bad. But you hit the nail on the head here in that she found someone who was vulnerable, and used it. That doesn't make you a bad person for being used. Try to learn what you can from it, but also don't let it define you.

So, as a lady and a feminist, I've never heard anything about 24 year old virgins. Out of 4 guys I've seriously dated, two of them have been 24 year old virgins (and one a 26 year old virgin). Both were decent people, and one I'm still with. The only time I've seen women who are worried about "male virgins" is in the context of men who identify as "incels" and spend their hours on 4chan and reddit talking about how much they hate women and want to destroy them and take away their rights, etc. If you are a virgin who does not hate women, and who does not blame women as a whole for anything bad in your life, feminists probably aren't talking about you or guys like you.

Sometimes people are sexist by accident. I've definitely been racist by accident. As long as, when someone points it out, you say something like "oh, sorry, didn't realize", then it's not a big deal.

Glad you've recently been able to see a psychiatrist - it can make suuuuuch a big difference. Primary care doctors are often really bad at prescribing psych meds, because it's just not what they're trained to do. They tend to through the same SSRIs and anti-anxieties that are popular at the time at *everyone* who mentions mental health symptoms . Also, just like with medication, different therapies work well for different people. Just curious - have you ever done any DBT/mindfulness stuff?

Now, if I recall, you also live in an area that isn't necessarily friendly to people who are "weird" in any way. I think it's important to keep this in mind, and figure out other ways to interact with people who might be more your speed. Places like this and other internet fora may be good, or maybe some larger cities if you have an access to them. I remember you having a cool style - in some environments, that can help draw people to you, and in others, being unique can make you a target for bullying/abuse/etc.

As far as feminist internet spaces: make sure that you are spending some time in them as an observer before making comments/asking questions. Some might be responding in hostile ways because they've been asked that question 100 other times, and they're tired. Feminists disagree with each other, too, so just because one feminist disagrees with you doesn't mean that you "aren't a real feminist" or that feminists as a group will hate you.
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Re: what is it i am expected to do.

Post by AtlachNacha on Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:19 am

Prajnaparamita wrote:I’d quote shit directly that I’m responding to but honestly its all over the goddamn place

XD ADDERALLLLLL

Prajnaparamita wrote:1.Yes, you are pretty. That’s a fact.

Hold up, where'd i put those prop glasses... ah, here *pushes glasses up, raises index finger* TECHNICALLY, it is a perception held by at least two people potentially indicative of similar perception being held by others (if one is not holding to scientific standards of sample sizes and etc.)

Prajnaparamita wrote:Actually, if I weren’t already in a long term committed relationship with an incredibly pretty long haired nerdy boy with a super submissive kinky streak, you’d be my type.

*prop glasses fall off* *rereads entirety of item 1* Hold on, I have to shove a few things on my schedule to the side to dedicate a bit of time to just sitting here BLUSHING.
(I hope it is acceptable at this point to admit with the clarification that there is no intent behind this other than niceness and honesty (in parallel with your apparent intention) that: I also think you are pretty there i did something that triggers my anxiety lets see what happens now.)

Prajnaparamita wrote:2.You mentioned that you were tested negative for autism, so therefore your lack of social skills must be malicious on your part or something (idk how that would be the case given that you ACTIVELY WANT to have good social skills and not creep people out, but okay.)

Elaborate repression suppression and sublimation in an effort to hide, a lie told until the liar beleives it, all to avoid being found out as an evil thing that people would wish to destroy? Out there, i'll admit, but theoretically possible. Maybe. I think? I am not a doctor.

Prajnaparamita wrote:Have you ever considered that your lack of social skills might be because of your heightened emotional state? When we’re deeply afraid or anxious, our amygdala is going crazy, that’s our deepest, oldest part of the brain, the one we share with the most basic of fellow vertebrates. And when that part of the brain is in control, the pre-frontal cortex, the newer, higher level, more complex parts of our brain get shut off. That’s the part of the brain that does the stuff that makes us human in many ways, like verbal skills and, yes, picking up on social cues and signals. Its entirely possible I think that your social struggles are temporary and situational, your anxiety has just gotten so strong that it feels permanent, because your brain is spending so much time being completely flooded and overwhelmed and so in that primal fear state where subtle social cues don’t get processed.

YEAAAAA that makes sense. As in, it seems to fit with my available knowledge and experience and data, not as in, this is a sensible way to design this system because wtf no is bad design not work good. Like, I'm wired to react to bad things happening by reflexively causing more and worse bad things to happen, basically? And then the whole thing where being in a mental state more and more results in being trained to be in that mental state more recursively and infinitely so the only way to be not anxious is to be not anxious and the only way to be not anxious in order to be not anxious is to be not anxious. Like something someone who thinks they're clever would come up with to make fun of buddhism. (of course, there's drugs to make me be not anxious for certain periods of time. and booze, occasionally. if only i lived in one of the several states i could get medicinal- i'm not sure if that's allowed to talk about here, nevermind.)

And then other people seem instinctively wired to react negatively to people with anxiety regardless of how compassionate they are, thus unintentionally reinforcing the person's anxiety. And to avoid people who seem lonely, thus increasing their loneliness. And then lonely and anxious people get frustrated and lash out counterproductively, worsening all of it.

It all seems almost intentionally structured from outside to maximize suffering. (not to exonerate people being assholes, but still.)

(The old gnostic "malevolent/insane creator" concept seems more and more sensible to me every day.)

Prajnaparamita wrote:3. Same I think goes for your struggles with doing math, reading or playing music, ect. I don’t mean to be harsh, but the amygdala is called the “lizard brain” for a reason, it controls what the most basic vertebrates do—fight, flight or freeze, and not much beyond that. When you’re there, in that highly emotional state or recovering from being there, basically everything else is shut off. And frankly from what you’re describing, in how you haven’t been able to do any of those things recently, but you have in the past, I think its just because you’ve been in a bad spot recently. And that emotional, survival part of your mind is working overtime, and everything else just gets shut down. Which also isn’t permanent, as you’ve learned and been able to do these things when you were better. I imagine that you’ve not lost anything, worst case scenario is likely that you’ll just be a little bit rusty when you start up again.

Still no math, or writing, but that's been a thing for years and years and years, since elementary school. Just gotten worse more recently. Actually have a diagnosed disability on the math though. I'm told I MIIIGHT end up with one on the writing, or it might, yes, be an extension of the anxiety. wrote lyrics though. weird scatter-brained incomprehensible ones related to many-worlds and quantum suicide and H.P. Lovecraft's dreamlands thing (or the interpretation and expansion on it that happened in bloodborne). but lyrics. not an essay, not coherent and comprehensible, not long, but somehting other than conversational format. a step?

But the musical stuff? Back. No rust. Slightly better rhythm, inexplicably? was a thing i was panicking about trying to learn bass. adam neely on youtube has a video about why classical musicians(hi)are terrible at precise tempo-keeping despite the reputation for precision. precise tempo is... kind of a necessity for playing physical instruments alongside sequenced synthesized ones. just a bit. and i managed to improve towards that goal while... not practicing. Weird. Also I thought i mentioned this part in the last post but it's not there o.o

But yeah, can read sheets without the notes switching around, can audiate* (as much as I could do so sober before, anyway. Usually takes a bit of absinthe to get that capability up to full) and play just fine again. Your assessment was probably what happened, it's just weird because the actual playing is almost entirely reflexive muscle memory, and the reading and audiation are essentially the same mental processes as reading english, and being able to read and type and formulate sentences wasn't (completely) shot (only my coherence and... like... typo-avoidance... thingy) so idk.

*Erm, Not sure who is familiar with what here (and also I just enjoy talking about things like this and explaining and probably over-explaining and probably everyone knows what i meant anyway but i want to type this out for my own enjoyment so fnar) so real quick: Audiation (in this context) is basically just reading sheet music like you'd read dialogue in a book, where you'd hear the characters' voices in your head, but hearing the music in your head in this case. So, same language-y bits of the brain. This in conjunction with neuroplasticity is also part of why music therapy helps for language and communication issues i.e. non-verbal autistic people, etc. or even brain damage. (A family friend has an autistic child who used to not be able to speak and this helped her, but for part of the process she could communicate... but only through wordless melodies. Last I heard she can actually speak now. This kind of thing is why I want to study music therapy. Maybe now that I have the "I'M DISABLED YE DOLTS" stick to beat them with they'll let me into school so I can learn to HEAL THE SICK(/assist the neuro-atypical) WITH THE POWER OF ROCK (*dramatization) or something. maybe. end tangent.

Prajnaparamita wrote:I don’t mean to be harsh

wait what where was harsh i missed the harsh. there was harsh? I saw no harsh. only insight.

Werel wrote:Hey AtlachNacha, seems like things are looking a little better, I'm glad if that's the case!

Sort of swinging up and down rapidly! IT'S LIKE A ROLLER COASTER SO FUN.

I don't like roller coasters.

(There was a facebook friend I was arguing with and I was in "which one of us is the asshole here" mode and then she started pulling the "if you're this easily offended" "you get upset and anxious so often it's like a broken record"(*has only seen me upset once before) and so on and so now i'm like "oh look it's my ex" so yeah I think she's probably getting blocked before she says something worse. So I think I'm doing better right now? Is what I'm saying.)

Werel wrote:...where discourse is just about scoring points and "winning," not arriving at mutual understanding.

OH MY GOD YES I have put it EXACTLY like that before and had it just waved aside. My dad and some of his friends are like this so much. It is infuriating.

Werel wrote: I hope this is one of the places that encourages the latter, that's what we're going for! Smile

It totally is. 's pretty bizarre. Kind of unnatural. I DIG IT.

Werel wrote:That's true. But there are always going to be people whose perceptions of you are negative, and all you can do is mitigate the danger or stress this poses to you directly. In your case, it might be about cultivating extremely nonthreatening body language, if that's a thing that seems to be a problem, or whatever other issues seem to crop up most often.

Yeah, I still don't know how head down not making eye contact sitting down in a corner trying to listen to the band without bothering people is seen as threatening and dangerous while drawing myself up to my full height and squaring my shoulders and making insistent purposeful eye contact is seen as the opposite (because boy howdy are those flipped in my mind) but whatever i'll figure it out somehow probably.

Also why the above is creepy but someone running up to me and standing on my steel toes to keep me from walking away so she could ask me questions about my social anxiety was perfectly acceptable and got me accused of being racist (by her and her alone, but still.) for being uncomfortable with the situation.

Werel wrote:That sounds like a pretty practical way of thinking about it. And I certainly agree that a lot of firsthand female perspectives would give you a much more reliable picture of the range of experiences/opinions women have than some isolated dudes' impressions. (Cause... they don't know shit about being women, why would you ask a taxi driver what it's like to be a firefighter?)

K, good, this is where I was coming from with that, just your initial jokey/(mocking?) response threw me.

Werel wrote:I see people saying horrible things about other groups all the time. I see people saying mean shit about women all the time. I don't agree with them or believe them, even though those beliefs affect me in ways I can't avoid. You're not obliged to internalize people's unjust stereotypes, even if it's difficult not to, even if they're widespread, even if they might have an impact on your life.

Yeah, but... I'm not really sure how to deal with those people when simply leaving isn't an option, when arguing results in me being vilified and hated, or just generally how to deal with being surrounded by the constant messages of "YOU ARE WORTHLESS AND EVIL". and things like discussions about a neo nazi group or someting and first comment is always along the lines of "probably a bunch of pathetic beta incels too" "men do this because they're too worthless to get laid so they find something to validate themselves" consistently equating and tying virginity and social awkwardness and alienation with all of the worst possible evil. And movies and tv: character hasn't gotten laid in a whole WEEK? What the hell is wrong with them? that's not natural... Oh it turns out it's because they're horrible and unlikable cue rant/exposition about all the horrible things about them! or about how pathetic their anxiety is or how they're not real men and they need to be ALPHA. Or it's just portrayed always that even the most shy and awkward characters have random casual sex at least twice a week like it's just a thing people do, like exercising, or whatever. and then support forums for anxiety where the advice is seriously given by someone WITH anxiety to "just go out and have sex with someone, sex is good for releiving anxiety"*. like it's just something everyone else, including my irl friends, (who are wierd looking people with wierd mental issues of their own) just... does. seemingly effortlessly. I've asked, both male and female, they pretty much describe it as just kind of happening. they just go out. and it happens. why would there be a difficulty with it? and the constant douchey internet comments towards people like me of "lol betas don't get laid need to lift bro then you get bitches" (*mouthvomit*) or the old "you want women to approach you and flirt with you without you taking the initiative first? you mean you want gorgeous models to just fall into your lap without any effort" (goddamnit, no, i want to signal submissiveness and put the work into that and looking pretty both in order to hopefully attract a certain TYPE and because the idea of filling the traditional masculine role fills me with a general feeling of wrongness akin to what i would feel if i suddenly sprouted tentacles from my eyebrows you goddamned gender-essentialist APPENDIX. (hoping appendix isn't actually an obscure slur and doesn't come off as meaning anything other than "entity with unknown function in this context/why are you here please go away you are dripping sickness all over everything"))

And yes, I know, media not reality, but... I"m thinking about all the messages women talk about getting from media and thinking you proooobably understand the feeling of being flooded with messages better than i do, right?

tangent. rant. something like that. sorry. probably went off the rails abit. Point is, no, not obliged to internalize, just difficult to shut it out. it's all so damned loud. And I know the comments on nazi groups and such usually probably aren't directed at people like me, and those people MIGHT not think it of me but... 1.some of them are pretty clear they do think those things about male virgins in general and 2. The feeling of someone associating you with nazis even if that's not their intent is a BIT uncomfortable. JUST A LITTLE.

Werel wrote:Wanting to be useful to other people is definitely a positive quality, in my book! As are respectfulness, adaptability, etc. See, positive qualities!

I don't see where respectfulness and adaptability have come in, sorry?

Werel wrote:That's a good approach to a lot of arguments: does it make any fucking sense if applied to a different set of people?

yay logic'd right

Werel wrote:MY. GOD. YOU FIGURED IT OUT.

I HAD IT FIGURED OUT I WAS JUST HIDING AND NEEDED BACKUP THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR BEING BACKUP

(your sense of humor has this weird dualism of being simultaneously comforting and insulting sometimes, you know that? XD)

Werel wrote:Yes. You don't have to agree with every single opinion held by every single person who applies a given label to themselves. It is thoroughly allowed. There are some opinions which are likely to be shared among most people of good character, and which arguing with will probably make lots of people not like you (e.g. "women are people of equal standing," or "ethnicity is not a determiner of human rights"). But on the finer points? You are allowed to think and dispute and ask questions. Nobody learns shit without disputing something, whether it be their own stances or others'. Not everyone will react well to your questions or opinions, and sometimes you may say things or ask questions which you regret later, but that's no reason to sit down and shut up and do as you're told for the rest of your life.

So, yes, I think you are allowed and even encouraged to feel hopeful! There are more opinions and people in the world than you've encountered so far, and not all of them are hostile to you and your existence.

Yeah. It's not really allowed most places that I seem to end up. And I'm not sure how I end up there, if they aren't the majority. But the "if you disagree you're part of the problem" canned phrase shows up everywhere, and accusations of making up "straw-feminists" "imaginary evil feminists" etc... as if someone is incapable of being an asshole because they appropriated a label and some of the phrasing and language. (this was, after all, my ex's usual tactic for winning arguments, appropriating social justice language and warping it for her own use.)

Nor does apologizing seem to do anything in those places OR irl most of the time. (Though it seems to work here, rather anomalously. OH MY GOD THE FORUM IS A PORTAL INTO ANOTHER UNIVERSE THAT NEEDS TO BE AN SCP wait it probably already is.)

The issue is mainly that... some people are afraid of tornadoes or lightning destroying their house and killing them, I'm just really, really terrified of doxxing, swatting, public shaming, the idea of my email inbox being flooded with a thousand repetitions of "KILL YOURSELF YOU MISOGYNIST PIG" and similar things i've seen happen over and over again over... misunderstandings, Or completely fictional occurences (remember gamergate? wait, that's probably still going, isn't it...*) or just "for the lulz"(like in a lot of instances of swatting) and those things are so chaotic and unpredictable that... they really do seem like storms or earthquakes. only more difficult to predict. or reason with. No way of knowing who the wrong person is or what you might do to set them off, or how capable they might be of getting the public into a blood frenzy. and then the fear that i'd deserve it, of course.

*seriously this will never not sicken me on every level there was no review nobody ever saw a review there's no screenshot of it this is the internet there would be a screenshot. and it wouldn't be a remotely sane response anyway. and what is with criticising victims not even in the usual stupid victim-blaming way but trying to use the word victim ITSELF as an insult somehow. fucking bullshit-golems, all of them. "ethics in game journalism." right. sure.

But one mantra-sort-of-thing I sometimes manage to remember to repeat and meditate on is: all existence is chaos, all things are possible
Or just "nothing is true. everything is permitted" but that has more violent associations.
but basically good things might have a possibility of happening even if they're not in any way probable maybe?
the things that inexplicably comfort me...

OH GOD PEOPLE KEEP POSTING AAAAH (seriously though thank you i'll respond eventually especially jcorozza because you made me feel like a dumbass in a good way like a something clicked way hold on)




You've all been so helpful and I don't really know how to give back but thank you so much everyone I have no idea how to thank you enough. I mean look at this shit I've gone from... that mess up there to actually having hope. I mean I still feel guilty for having hope for some reason but that's like dogs barking, in the mood i'm in right now.

AtlachNacha

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Re: what is it i am expected to do.

Post by AtlachNacha on Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:57 am

Prajnaparamita wrote:And I disagree with some feminists, including even major influential ones like Gloria Steinem.

ughghghghg Steinem. Don't know much about her, but that whole "women only support bernie to meet BOYS" thing. Tha fuck.

Prajnaparamita wrote:And I also feel strongly that sex work should be legalized so that sex workers can live openly and safely, without stigma.

Bothers me that this is still in dispute. The amount of harm that's caused by keeping it illegal is just... just... I can't really express the requisite level of disgust I feel the subject needs. There's a massive web of nightmarish consequences.

Prajnaparamita wrote:"I hear what you're saying, but I don't see it that way".

This is a useful thing. Thank you. I'll work on finding my own phrasing of it that feels comfortable and 'my own' enough to say confidently.

jcorozza wrote: and you are a person.

so... I think to a certain extent my self-dehumanization thing (and lapsing into utilitarian bullshit aboutl people who aren't useful not having any right to live and etc, which i'm always ashamed and disgusted about when i snap out of it, and i think rather tellingly have never thought of applying to anyone else. which... probably means i shouldn't apply it to myself, either.  Facepalm ) might be a tactic to prevent myself at all costs from ever becoming:

jcorozza wrote: ...men who identify as "incels" and spend their hours on 4chan and reddit talking about how much they hate women and want to destroy them and take away their rights, etc.

By continually removing the possibility of anyone being in the wrong but me, in order to prevent myself from pulling that^ sort of shit. As in, projection of my own shortcomings failures and wrongdoings (or just bad luck) onto a scapegoat. The same behavior seen in fascists.

This could be part of why I feel bad about feeling better. If that mechanism goes away...

or it could be a combination of being flooded with certain messages and my anxiety amplifying those and the process of "ok, stop, think about this, what might the reason for their behaviour be and whether you're actually the asshole here before you dismiss them or get angry" until it all massively overdrives and gets clipped into a different waveform entirely.

either one seems to fit. really not sure which it is. or both? Along with actually being told I wasn't a person. But that only happened once, shouldn't stick that hard...

Seems like a question for doc bluegrass...

jcorozza wrote:If you are a virgin who does not hate women, and who does not blame women as a whole for anything bad in your life, feminists probably aren't talking about you or guys like you.  

I had not thought of this. I had not separated the 'incel' term and others from just meaning male virgin/lonely/isolated/etc... That removes SOME of the things that I keep hearing. That is a bit helpful.

There are still plenty of things where the phrasing doesn't use those terms and still clearly unambiguously states "anyone who is a virgin this long here are the reasons why that would happen they are all bad and so on also you are a bad person for expecting anyone would want you now and etcetera good day."

Also occurs to me I should probably just immediately tune out anything said by someone who unironically uses the term "beta male" when talking about anything other than canids. seems obvious in retrospect.

jcorozza wrote:So, as a lady and a feminist, I've never heard anything about 24 year old virgins.  Out of 4 guys I've seriously dated, two of them have been 24 year old virgins (and one a 26 year old virgin).  Both were decent people, and one I'm still with.

WOO real-world personal experience counterexamples are the most wonderful thing to me right now thank you. (NO WAY TO ARGUE WITH THEM HA)

jcorozza wrote:Sometimes people are sexist by accident.  I've definitely been racist by accident.  As long as, when someone points it out, you say something like "oh, sorry, didn't realize", then it's not a big deal

I mean, I'll practice my calm non-panicky non-all-caps apologies, but. I tend to see apologies just met with more anger, and the characterization of the misstep as an inherent part of the person, their intentions as irrelevant, and so on.

jcorozza wrote:Glad you've recently been able to see a psychiatrist - it can make suuuuuch a big difference.  Primary care doctors are often really bad at prescribing psych meds, because it's just not what they're trained to do.  They tend to through the same SSRIs and anti-anxieties that are popular at the time at *everyone* who mentions mental health symptoms .  Also, just like with medication, different therapies work well for different people.  Just curious - have you ever done any DBT/mindfulness stuff?

ughghghghg Truth about the primary care doctors there. I swear, I got prescribed something... depakote, i think it was called? And couldn't WALK. looked up more information and it's like... this is usually prescribed for either epilepsy or one of the close-to-last-resort drugs for mania or psychosis. what even. Why did he think this was a good idea.

I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT DBT IS TELL ME MORE! Grin

jcorozza wrote:Now, if I recall, you also live in an area that isn't necessarily friendly to people who are "weird" in any way.  I think it's important to keep this in mind, and figure out other ways to interact with people who might be more your speed.  Places like this and other internet fora may be good, or maybe some larger cities if you have an access to them.  I remember you having a cool style - in some environments, that can help draw people to you, and in others, being unique can make you a target for bullying/abuse/etc.

Yeah, that's... complicated. Honestly, a lot of the places I end up having problems are wierdo/counterculture hangouts or places normally open to that, but... i'm not quite the right kind of weird maybe? XD Like, they're not goth specific (such a place would whither and die here.) but then so much memento mori type imagery has bled into other things at this point that shouldn't really matter that much... but I don't usually see anyone else wearing a suit and tie quite... quite the way I do, around here, usually. (like even in a jazz club i'm the odd one out... and we're talking a place almost hidden down a dark alley, lit almost entirely by candles, with velvet curtains on the walls, dim and dramatic... and the musicians up on stage are wearing... kaki cargo pants. and I'm getting weird looks. it's. slightly. frustrating.)

I do run into other goths and rivetheads, very rarely, but they tend to be 'elder goths' and so on, as in... into it since they were my age in the 70s-80s, sometimes. out of my age bracket and more 'old-school'/traditional. and of course busy with kids and jobs. nobody to start a damned band with already sgdugiufkghfkg.

And "netgoths" seem to tend to be kind of elitist assholes. or argumentative clique-y assholes. "you can't sit at our table" types. (good god were these the people that inspired VTM? that would make so much sense.) Still always looking for a decent online community in that vein but... UGH I hate being geographically/linguistically isolated from most of the parts of this whole thing I actually want to socially participate in. I probably need to just suck it up and make a few posts here and there, maybe I can avoid getting sucked into the stupid little jyhad* drama... probably not. would be infinitely preferable to have spooky meatspace friends again... just someone I can sit and trade music videos or watch movies with without the weird struggle to understand each other. (though that's interesting and fulfilling in its own way.)

*jokingly using VTM term referring to compulsive petty vampire infighting not to be confused with islamic concept note the 'y' please no confusion thank you

There's one place I could get to if I had a car* **, that has a goth night sort of thing, there are friends/acquaintances who go, and are into that sort of thing, but they're elusive and perpetually busy. and for some reason it's harder for me to send a private facebook message to someone I've known since i was 12 than to completely vomit out my soul on a public forum full of strangers. funny how that works. ughghghg i probably need to suck it up and ask for a ride.
(pale. long black hair. model. might be part of the difficulty?  Laughing )

*Or if i still had my transit pass, but I only qualified for the giant discount on that while i was still too young to get in... heh.

But yeah, I don't currently have a way to a larger city. (a guy i met a while ago said the u.s. industrial scene is concentrated in parts of arizona and nevada now. which. is. baffling. how are they surviving? I imagine all the PVC pants and gas masks have to have fused to their skin in this heat. I mean; THE MAILBOXES ARE MELTING. no idea how accurate that is though.)

**rather, one that actually ran. getting closer though, engine's almost rebuilt... just a couple more parts...

the plan long term i guess is: get enough time in at the local community college (which still seems like a brick wall, but... that little bit there looks sorta like i could get a grappling hook on it... where around here sells grappling hooks? dammit i'm going to have to make one again.) to transfer somewhere. Ideal unicorn fantasy: just about anywhere in Germany (nexus of gothdom). or Sibelius academy, which is in Helsinki, so...
nexus of symphonic metal, weekend trip away from nexus of gothdom. (fun fact: if you get a doctorate in Finland, you get a sword and a top hat. my grandmother would probably explode from pride if i followed in her footsteps and got a doctorate in music... but like I said, unicorn fantasy.)

jcorozza wrote:As far as feminist internet spaces: make sure that you are spending some time in them as an observer before making comments/asking questions.  Some might be responding in hostile ways because they've been asked that question 100 other times, and they're tired.  Feminists disagree with each other, too, so just because one feminist disagrees with you doesn't mean that you "aren't a real feminist" or that feminists as a group will hate you.  

Oh, I understand the "101-fatique"... just not the sheer level of hostility sometimes used to express it. And I understand "lurk before posting" as universal internet etiquette.

Also this is the first feminist-y place i've actually posted in since... i was a teenager? i think? Most of the bad online reactions I talk about either happened a long time ago and stuck with me, or for the most part, are observed from afar. in a bunker. through tinted safety goggles. the only reason i ever managed to post here was a combination of extreme desperation and having lurked enough to know it was safe, and even then, if you'll recall, i was a bit skittish.

I have difficulty finding good feminist stuff, basically. (my previous therapist basically just kept reacting with "where the hell do you find this bullshit"/"oh god not those assholes" until she eventually explicitly forbade me from reading anything feminist-related for a while.)


i talk too much


what the hell was tha- oh, fireworks. I should probably climb out of my cave and go have dinner with my family. forgot what day it was for a while...

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