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Would/Do you respond to a "hey" message?

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Post by Werel Fri Oct 17, 2014 10:20 pm

azazel wrote:
I've got to admit that to me, women sending "hey" messages or rating-without-a-message seem strongly correlated with oh-lolz-look-how-emancipated-I-am-I-even-send-messages (but refuse to put effort in that)-HURRDURR personalities. Kinda like the same person who insist they're emancipated because if you offer to pay for the dinner they always insist to share, but if you don't offer to pay for dinner and just pay your own share you never hear from them again.

To me, "nothing" sounds like a pretty good option considering the alternative then.

It sort of sounds like here you're setting up "emancipation" (and subtext-o-meter says you mean "all kinda feminism"--am I wrong?) as the punchline to a joke about how bitches be hypocritical hurrdurr. But I'm with Bunny on the "wait what do you actually mean?" boat; is that what you actually mean?
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Post by nearly_takuan Fri Oct 17, 2014 11:24 pm

Er, if you didn't follow up with them, how did you know they had that attitude about it?

In my limited experience the "hey"/"star" correlates with an ongoing reluctance to put any effort at all into moving a conversation in either an interesting direction or toward a meeting proposal. They don't seem to think they've done me a particular favor by (not) initiating an interaction; they just seem to be lazy and kind of bored/boring and not terribly interested in me after all. Conversations tend to feel like this (aggregated and paraphrased and almost certainly biased toward my perspective, but do note that we rated each other 4+ stars prior to this)—

Hi, nice to meet you. You know, I never did get around to trying $thing and now I'm wondering if I should. Is it like $other_thing? Can't stay long just now, but I'd love to read more about what you like about it some time.
Yeah it's good and I guess it is kind of like $other_thing.
Well, that's good to know. Maybe I will check it out after all, then. Hey, what made you decide to go into $career, if anything? I'd have to admit I kind of just fell into mine, but I usually like it pretty well so I guess it worked out.
Oh that's good. For me it was that I was good at $task and I like helping other people. (Side note: "helping people" factors into at least two-thirds of all the jobs on the planet. There are very few less personal motivations.)
That certainly seems like a good way to accomplish that. So, I guess things must have been pretty busy lately. Anything interesting going on?
Not much lol I'm just working part time and watching Netflix. (Alternately, she recites her "Friday night" essay sentence afterthought.)
Oh. Well, then, do you think you'd be free to meet for coffee (or tea or water or juice or food) in a couple of days? What kind of thing do you usually like?
Silence for a couple of days, and then, if I'm "lucky":
Hey I started seeing someone, [sic] but we can chat some more if that's okay, [sic] if you don't want to I'll understand.

I used to type out replies explaining that although there was no ill will, penpals aren't remotely exactly what I'm looking for on a dating site, so I would probably not be bothering her again. Whatever patience and sincerity I might have had left for this type of conversation has been pretty thoroughly drained out of me since several months ago, though, so at this point my response is identical to the average woman's: utter silence.

(ETA: Okay, so I totally judge people too. Of course I judge people for expecting to get my attention by just clicking a thing and for having profiles that consist entirely of lists of things that are the same things a lot of other profiles list. But....they half twelve percent initiated a thing and indicated interest and that is more than most people.)
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Post by Kiskadee Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:34 am

Does anyone else chose to "like" or rate highly, or whatever those profiles which you like, but who you make you shyer than average? Normally I message people when interested, but if there's something that's making me feel insecure about talking to her, sometimes I just hit a bunch of stars.

Possibly an explanation other than laziness for some people? This is probably less true of an actual message that just says "hey" In any case, I think it's worth replying as long as you don't waste too much time on it.
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Post by nearly_takuan Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:47 am

Ideas on how to not waste a lot of time when trying to solicit a meaningful response from heysayers? Because I always find myself doing quite a lot of research looking for topics that might lead to something, and as that continues to fail I eventually escalate any given conversation to something between a dental extraction and a militant interrogation. We have ways of making you talk..! (Except it turns out I actually really don't.)

I don't even keep the teeth.
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Post by azazel Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:18 am

Werel wrote:
azazel wrote:
I've got to admit that to me, women sending "hey" messages or rating-without-a-message seem strongly correlated with oh-lolz-look-how-emancipated-I-am-I-even-send-messages (but refuse to put effort in that)-HURRDURR personalities. Kinda like the same person who insist they're emancipated because if you offer to pay for the dinner they always insist to share, but if you don't offer to pay for dinner and just pay your own share you never hear from them again.

To me, "nothing" sounds like a pretty good option considering the alternative then.

It sort of sounds like here you're setting up "emancipation" (and subtext-o-meter says you mean "all kinda feminism"--am I wrong?) as the punchline to a joke about how bitches be hypocritical hurrdurr. But I'm with Bunny on the "wait what do you actually mean?" boat; is that what you actually mean?

I´m a bit surprised how you gather that from my text? O_o

I'm questioning the emancipation of two very distinct groups of people: the women who rate but don't send messages, and women who would never date a guy who doesn't offer to pay for dates, and I suggest there's significant overlap between the two.

There are more groups of course, for instance the group of women who don't rate and don't message, which I can most certainly understand because approaching sucks hard.

Then there's the group of women who send messages, which is awesome.

And then there's the group of women who sends messages and rates people, which kinda indicates that the men they rated are obviously second choice, since they weren't good enough for an initial message.

So when you actually follow up being rated highly with some indicator of interest of your own, you either get someone who methaporically shakes hands of non-white people at every opportunity to prove they're not racist, or you get someone who made it clear you're subpar.

And Nearly_takuan, those traits correlate very strongly with other certain traits that manifest themselves IRL in my experience.
For example the type that would flirt almost to the point of harrassment with a guy, but never actually ask them out because that's just unladylike.
Incredibly annoying, since you can't "reject" them, and you don't want to lead them on so you have to cut them off completely when it becomes too annoying.
Since it's the same thought pattern ("I want this guy and I want that to be mostly clear, but not too clear because at least I won't be rejected") I feel comfortable extrapolating.

Anyway, the fact that I've just got enough pride not to date someone who think I'm a subpar human being is the reason why I normally try to avoid posting about my dating endeavours. It feels wrong to whine about how I can't find anyone while I have options I'm not willing to pursue.

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Post by reboot Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:14 am

Azazel, have you ever met any women from the rate but do not message group upon whom you are basing these conclusions?

See, I am one of them. I rate people who I would like to date but I do not meet their criteria in some way. I do not want to bother them with a message because we are not compatible, but want to show some sign of appreciation.

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Post by Enail Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:07 pm

I've never done OLD, so I may be making an assumption that doesn't really apply, but I've always figured people might star someone that they thought looked cool at a quick glance, but want to come back to later when they have more time/energy to write a message. Unless there's some other way of flagging profiles to remind yourself of them later?
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Post by Kiskadee Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:14 pm

nearly_takuan wrote:Ideas on how to not waste a lot of time when trying to solicit a meaningful response from heysayers? Because I always find myself doing quite a lot of research looking for topics that might lead to something, and as that continues to fail I eventually escalate any given conversation to something between a dental extraction and a militant interrogation. We have ways of making you talk..! (Except it turns out I actually really don't.)

I don't even keep the teeth.

Hahaha, yeah. Personally, I would respond to one halfhearted indication of interest (rating or "hey"), since that could be shyness or a very busy day or anything. If you write one good toothpulling message back, and get something short and pointless as a response, I'd say she's either not interested or naturally flakey.

Totally agree with reboot, and I do that too sometimes. Often it means I think they are too good for me in one way or another, NOT that they are subpar.
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Post by nearly_takuan Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:17 pm

azazel wrote:Anyway, the fact that I've just got enough pride not to date someone who think I'm a subpar human being is the reason why I normally try to avoid posting about my dating endeavours. It feels wrong to whine about how I can't find anyone while I have options I'm not willing to pursue.
I don't see anything wrong with that.

You wanna complain, then complain. Rant or "discuss" or ask for help finding workarounds and alternatives and gimmicks. If pride is a psychological barrier to doing a thing, that isn't any less real or legitimate than any other obstacle and you should rightly expect people to take that seriously if you bring it up in the context of an issue you're struggling with. And I'm not even talking about "fixing" your attitude (hell, makes sense to me; main difference between us is I'm still willing to put up with the bullshit just in case). You'd rather be alone? Being alone still sucks? 'Ey, we've got a thread about that too.

The only "wrong" move, IMO, is to pester with these weird not-really-questions just to prove a point. Or at least, I get the sense that you're trying to prove a point, but even after your explanation I'm not entirely sure what that point is.

Frankly, this attempt at educating us just feels so half-hearted that I have trouble believing that's your real goal. Wink
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Post by Mel Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:03 pm

Yeah, azazel, these very negative statements about women you're making (comparing them to racists now!), simply based on their using what sounds like a normal function of the website, are unfair and uncalled for.  There are women here telling you that they use this function or similar functions on other sites for other reasons that aren't them being hypocrites or treating you as a subpar human being. Please recognize that you don't actually know that every or even most women who rate a guy without messaging him are being horrible in some way, and stop the generalizing.

It sounds as though you've never actually talked to a woman who's done this, so I'm not sure where you're drawing these conclusions from in the first place.  But even if you have talked to some women who rate guys in a hypocritical or insulting way--that doesn't make it reasonable to assume and say all women who use the rating system are like that.  You notice how the other posters here who've said they don't respond to "hey" messages anymore indicated it was because they personally found the people who did so, when they made the effort to look, weren't people who fit what they were looking for, so they stopped bothering making the effort, or they find those sorts of messages themselves annoying to try to respond to.  They didn't say, "People who just say 'hey' are bad/offensive people," and if they had that wouldn't be okay either.

If you want to talk about this issue without being challenged, a much better way would be to use those posts as a model.  Talk about your own feelings and experiences.  You can say, "Being rated without getting a message makes me feel like I'm being told I'm not good enough, so I'd feel worse pursuing those than just ignoring them," or "I've met several women who talk about using the rating system in this hypocritical way, so that makes me uncomfortable responding to anyone who only rates me," or whatever, without making any claims about what every woman doing this definitely intends, and you'd be fine. I don't think that should be so hard?
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Post by Guest Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:03 pm

lol @ drawing conclusions about someone's motivations and feelings from a literal click on a website

I very rarely use the rating system, myself (you can favorite profiles, which I do as a reminder to myself to message them later), but sometimes I do when I'm feeling shy or insecure about someone because they seem completely out of my league. If they rate me highly back, then I'll go ahead and message them, having gotten some indication of return interest.

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Post by kath Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:15 pm

Yeah, Azazel - you seem to be very sincerely upset that there are people who don't follow Your Rules For OLD-ing Correctly.

You are under absolutely no obligation to message people who just rate you. You're right, if they're really interested, you can wait until they message you. You owe them absolutely nothing. You certainly don't owe them bitterness.

But you don't know their minds. So while you can assume they are actually not "emancipated" (whatever you might mean by that? "fully self-actualized people"? It's apparently some sort of value judgement - you seem to be suggesting that they think they are "emancipated" but you think that they are not ... but that they should be?) if you want to, you actually have no information to suggest that, and it seems to just be making you bitter.

Also I don't think "emancipated" is a very clear word to use in this context. It makes you sound like you're ranting about social justice movements in a context where ... it's not that it's not relevant, but in which you can't make informed conclusion about the social views of the people you're talking about. It makes you sound unreasonable.

Neraly - one thought about that exchange is that it really reads like you are the one controlling the conversation, and like you are Studiously Trying to Have a Good Discussion. I can understand that being a little bit formal to some people on OLD, or that they feel like the conversation isn't flowing. I don't think you need to change your questions necessarily, but I think trying to phrase everything more casually might allow you to get at the same info without making the conversation feel weird. This way it feels rigid, and rigid conversational partners are not much fun. You clearly want a very specific response. Would it be helpful for people to suggest phrasing that might come off a bit less rigid? I'm sure a lot of that will be subjective.
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Post by Werel Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:14 pm

azazel wrote:
I´m a bit surprised how you gather that from my text? O_o

I'm questioning the emancipation of two very distinct groups of people: the women who rate but don't send messages, and women who would never date a guy who doesn't offer to pay for dates, and I suggest there's significant overlap between the two.

Ah, okay, I think one of the points of confusion here, like kath said, is use of the word "emancipated." Just a shot in the dark, but are you maybe a native speaker of a language other than English? In which the cognate for "emancipated" might have different social connotations? To me, use of that word sounds a bit like saying "women's lib(ber)" (i.e. archaic, conservative, and dismissive). Or maybe that's just the US context, and you're from another Anglophone country? Either way, that's a big part of what made it sound like you were casting aspersions on the social/political stances of these women (which, like kath said, you can't have much data on).


And then there's the group of women who sends messages and rates people, which kinda indicates that the men they rated are obviously second choice, since they weren't good enough for an initial message.

So when you actually follow up being rated highly with some indicator of interest of your own, you either get someone who methaporically shakes hands of non-white people at every opportunity to prove they're not racist, or you get someone who made it clear you're subpar.

Interesting that you read "doesn't immediately send message" as "thinks I'm subpar." I've never done the OLD thing for anything but making friends, but from a lot of secondhand accounts (including most people in this thread), likes/stars aren't just for people you're not top-tier interested in, but people you don't have the time/guts/immediate connection to message right away. While of course you shouldn't date people who think you're a subpar human(!), you're jumping right to "she thinks I'm a subpar human" based on almost no information, and I can't think of a single way that's fair or useful. Smile

The race analogy is... just kind of baffling, though... are you saying that anyone who responds to your post-star messages is engaging in some form of tokenism (and if so, what kind? "Token Guy I'm Not Interested In"? Or are you denigrating people who respond out of politeness to people they don't want to date?)
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Post by kleenestar Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:11 pm

Yeah, the dinner analogy is equally weird. I was taught that if you invite someone out in any capacity, it's very rude not to offer to pay for them. Although I'm not dating, I follow this rule when making new friends and (when relevant) in professional contexts. While I don't expect others to follow this rule precisely, I do think there are many circumstances where not offering to pay is both selfish and rude - and it's totally legit not to want to date someone who is selfish and rude. I'm a woman who has basically always been the approacher in romantic contexts, including with the man I married, so I'm calling this correlation bullshit.
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Post by eselle28 Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:35 pm

I'm one of the women who sometimes uses the star system. These are the situations where I use it:

1. The guy lives in one of a couple towns that are between 2 and 3 hours away. I'm willing to date someone who lives that distance, but other people's opinions about distance vary wildly, and I know from firsthand experience that getting a message from someone who seems compatible but who's far beyond your distance boundaries can be an exercise in disappointment.

2. The guy isn't in my league. This occasionally applies to guys who are more conventionally attractive than ones who are usually interested in me, but more frequently to guys who aren't quite the same "type" as I am. That last one is hard to describe without an example, but I sort of fall in partway between a geek and a yuppie, and men who seem like one or the other of those things often find me interesting. If I run into a profile I like of a person who's vaguely of one of those types, I'll probably write. There are other types of men who I sometimes hit it off with, but where it's much more hit or miss. I'm fairly compatible with some hipster guys, for instance, but it's less predictable whether they're interested in me or aren't all that hot on the idea of going out with someone who owns a lot of cardigans and pencil skirts and has lousy taste in music. If I see a profile I like from a guy who seems more like that type, I might hit star and see if he stars me back before I send my first message.

If I run into a profile that makes me feel unsure about whether I'd like to meet the man who wrote it, rather than unsure about whether he'd be interested in meeting me, I neither write nor star. I generally pass on by the profile and return to it later, which sometimes clarifies my feelings. If I'm still unsure, I'll look elsewhere, and if he writes me in the meantime, I'll consider the message in addition to the profile. The two are usually enough to give me a gut feeling.

kleenestar wrote:Yeah, the dinner analogy is equally weird. I was taught that if you invite someone out in any capacity, it's very rude not to offer to pay for them. Although I'm not dating, I follow this rule when making new friends and (when relevant) in professional contexts. While I don't expect others to follow this rule precisely, I do think there are many circumstances where not offering to pay is both selfish and rude - and it's totally legit not to want to date someone who is selfish and rude. I'm a woman who has basically always been the approacher in romantic contexts, including with the man I married, so I'm calling this correlation bullshit.

I can understand that in many situations, but I think the rule ends up being considerably more troublesome in the dating market than it is when people are making friends or engaging in professional networking. Unlike the other two, dating is still an interaction where the man is more likely to have been the asker. Declaring it universally selfish and rude for a man who did the asking not to offer to pay for both his expenses and his date's means he's probably going to spend considerably more on dates than a woman would, and also creates an incentive for both parties to try to play the passive role rather than be proactive and suggest going out.

I think people should be able to set whatever standards they'd like for behavior on a date and choose not to go out again with people who don't meet those standards, but applying broader labels to someone who chooses not to follow this particular and possibly less-useful-than-it-used-to-be rule of etiquette concerns me a bit.
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Post by kleenestar Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:07 am

Right, which is why I said that I don't expect others to follow this specific rule, but that nonetheless there are circumstances where not offering to pay is selfish and rude. My point is that one can reveal things about one's character by the way one deals with money - and that even if you think that it's optimal for people to pay their own way on a date, you can still learn something unpleasant about a person by the way they deal with the money issue.

(While I haven't had to come up with a coherent date-money philosophy, it would probably go something like "If you're sharing decision-making, you should share the cost; if not, not.")

Obviously people can come up with their own standards. My point is just that there might be reasons why someone could be pissed about a person not offering to pay that have nothing to do with a performance of gender roles.
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Post by kleenestar Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:16 am

I'll also explicitly acknowledge: as someone who has a well-paying job, but many of whose friends are highly financially insecure for various reasons (some temporarily, some permanently), I have had to learn how easy it is to financially impose on people who can't afford it - in some cases the hard way. You're probably right, eselle, dating may be different, but I've seen enough friends for whom a more-expensive-than-expected date meant not eating* for the rest of the week that I'm pretty fierce about people being financially respectful of others.

*Which is why we always have food in our fridge and an open-door policy - because no one in my life goes hungry if I can help it.
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Post by kleenestar Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:21 am

Sorry, one more post and then I will shut up!

If we want to talk about the money thing specifically that's fine, but probably belongs in a new thread.

The reason I originally brought this up was, "I am a woman who has always done the vast majority of the approaching, and I personally might find it rude, depending on the circumstances, if a guy invited me out and did not offer to pay (though as I hate letting anyone pay for me I would not accept). Therefore azazel's made-up point does not reflect at least some portions of reality."
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Post by eselle28 Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:35 am

I don't think we're actually very far apart on this kleenestar! I think it's vital that people be financially respectful of others, and think it's a very serious warning sign if one's date isn't. I probably come at this from a slightly different angle, as I have a well-paying job and sometimes am asked out fairly regularly by men who are considerably less financially secure, which makes me pretty attuned to the possibility that someone will hesitate to ask someone else out or face some financial pinching as a result of paying for two people's entertainment rather than one's. You rule works for me too, though. For a variety of reasons related to background and work, I tend to know more about date locations than most of my dates, and I tend to approach date planning by describing a few fairly different places in terms of what they offer and relative cost then seeking feedback about where my date would like to go. Given that, it's actually a little hard for me to picture going on a date that hasn't been planned in a fairly collaborative way.

But, yes, on the broader point, I'd agree that the hypothesized correlation at least isn't one that applies to everyone. Oh, and if people want to discuss paying further in any way, I'll split the thread.
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Post by azazel Sun Oct 19, 2014 6:06 am

Werel wrote:
azazel wrote:
I´m a bit surprised how you gather that from my text? O_o

I'm questioning the emancipation of two very distinct groups of people: the women who rate but don't send messages, and women who would never date a guy who doesn't offer to pay for dates, and I suggest there's significant overlap between the two.

Ah, okay, I think one of the points of confusion here, like kath said, is use of the word "emancipated." Just a shot in the dark, but are you maybe a native speaker of a language other than English? In which the cognate for "emancipated" might have different social connotations? To me, use of that word sounds a bit like saying "women's lib(ber)" (i.e. archaic, conservative, and dismissive). Or maybe that's just the US context, and you're from another Anglophone country? Either way, that's a big part of what made it sound like you were casting aspersions on the social/political stances of these women (which, like kath said, you can't have much data on).

Well, I was casting aspersions on the social/political stances of these women, but I thought you meant I was saying feminism as a whole was hypocritical, which I wasn't.

I'm merely suggesting that most of the women who only rate but do not message only want convenient "equality", and use token efforts to feel good about themselves.

Werel wrote:
Interesting that you read "doesn't immediately send message" as "thinks I'm subpar." I've never done the OLD thing for anything but making friends, but from a lot of secondhand accounts (including most people in this thread), likes/stars aren't just for people you're not top-tier interested in, but people you don't have the time/guts/immediate connection to message right away. While of course you shouldn't date people who think you're a subpar human(!), you're jumping right to "she thinks I'm a subpar human" based on almost no information, and I can't think of a single way that's fair or useful. Smile

But if you don't have time to message them or an immediate connection, that means they're subpar, doesn't it? Otherwise you'd go back when you have time to rate them.

And not having the guts to spend actual effort on connecting with someone, so you send out an effortless equivalent of "hey", that's what I was ranting about in this thread.

Werel wrote:The race analogy is... just kind of baffling, though... are you saying that anyone who responds to your post-star messages is engaging in some form of tokenism (and if so, what kind? "Token Guy I'm Not Interested In"? Or are you denigrating people who respond out of politeness to people they don't want to date?)

No, I was saying that most women who rate but do not message are engaging in some form of tokenism (the kind of "Token Effort To Show I'm A Modern Women So I Approach Dudes (But Don't Want To Spend Effort On It)".

kleenestar wrote:Sorry, one more post and then I will shut up!

If we want to talk about the money thing specifically that's fine, but probably belongs in a new thread.

The reason I originally brought this up was, "I am a woman who has always done the vast majority of the approaching, and I personally might find it rude, depending on the circumstances, if a guy invited me out and did not offer to pay (though as I hate letting anyone pay for me I would not accept). Therefore azazel's made-up point does not reflect at least some portions of reality."

No model ever reflects reality in a perfect way, it should reflect reality enough to be workable.
In this case, I've heard your stance of "the inviter should pay" come most often of women who would rather die than ask a guy out (so they were looking for a justification why to accept being bought), which makes you an outlier of my model.

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Post by nearly_takuan Sun Oct 19, 2014 6:13 am

It's possible that kleenestar may very well be the almost-brown Scottish cow in this scenario.

Or possibly not, because I also don't see much of a reason to make a whole model out of your anecdata. Especially since it kind of sounds like you made a high-order Lagrange polynomial and called it good.
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Post by Mel Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:11 am

<mod> Azazel, I directly asked you to stop making negative generalizations about women who use the rating system, and several others pointed out why they found it problematic as well. Now I am warning you formally as a mod. Cut it out. As I said before, if you want to talk about your feelings about being rated but not messaged, or your experiences with women who've done this, that is totally fine (and see my previous post for example phrasing). So please stick to that or drop the subject completely. </mod>
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Post by SadisticToaster Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:02 am

eselle28 wrote: I sort of fall in partway between a geek and a yuppie

You're a Guppie?

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Post by BasedBuzzed Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:58 am

Huh, I mostly parse and use the star system as a verdict on profile quality(eg, even if I don't see a viable percentage match and the like, as long as it's written with humour, has good pics, etcetera, I give it 4 to 5 stars).

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Post by azazel Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:26 pm

BasedBuzzed wrote:Huh, I mostly parse and use the star system as a verdict on profile quality(eg, even if I don't see a viable percentage match and the like, as long as it's written with humour, has good pics, etcetera, I give it 4 to 5 stars).

This is actually the first explanation that doesn't make me feel like a subpar human being. Being liked in non-romantic ways is at least something I have experience with.

nearly_takuan wrote:It's possible that kleenestar may very well be the almost-brown Scottish cow in this scenario.

Or possibly not, because I also don't see much of a reason to make a whole model out of your anecdata. Especially since it kind of sounds like you made a high-order Lagrange polynomial and called it good.

We move on to denying my experiences now? I can assure you I've actually observed quite some non-brown cows.

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