Would/Do you respond to a "hey" message?

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Post by Autumnflame on Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:03 pm

lol @ drawing conclusions about someone's motivations and feelings from a literal click on a website

I very rarely use the rating system, myself (you can favorite profiles, which I do as a reminder to myself to message them later), but sometimes I do when I'm feeling shy or insecure about someone because they seem completely out of my league. If they rate me highly back, then I'll go ahead and message them, having gotten some indication of return interest.
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Post by kath on Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:15 pm

Yeah, Azazel - you seem to be very sincerely upset that there are people who don't follow Your Rules For OLD-ing Correctly.

You are under absolutely no obligation to message people who just rate you. You're right, if they're really interested, you can wait until they message you. You owe them absolutely nothing. You certainly don't owe them bitterness.

But you don't know their minds. So while you can assume they are actually not "emancipated" (whatever you might mean by that? "fully self-actualized people"? It's apparently some sort of value judgement - you seem to be suggesting that they think they are "emancipated" but you think that they are not ... but that they should be?) if you want to, you actually have no information to suggest that, and it seems to just be making you bitter.

Also I don't think "emancipated" is a very clear word to use in this context. It makes you sound like you're ranting about social justice movements in a context where ... it's not that it's not relevant, but in which you can't make informed conclusion about the social views of the people you're talking about. It makes you sound unreasonable.

Neraly - one thought about that exchange is that it really reads like you are the one controlling the conversation, and like you are Studiously Trying to Have a Good Discussion. I can understand that being a little bit formal to some people on OLD, or that they feel like the conversation isn't flowing. I don't think you need to change your questions necessarily, but I think trying to phrase everything more casually might allow you to get at the same info without making the conversation feel weird. This way it feels rigid, and rigid conversational partners are not much fun. You clearly want a very specific response. Would it be helpful for people to suggest phrasing that might come off a bit less rigid? I'm sure a lot of that will be subjective.
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Post by Werel on Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:14 pm

azazel wrote:
I´m a bit surprised how you gather that from my text? O_o

I'm questioning the emancipation of two very distinct groups of people: the women who rate but don't send messages, and women who would never date a guy who doesn't offer to pay for dates, and I suggest there's significant overlap between the two.

Ah, okay, I think one of the points of confusion here, like kath said, is use of the word "emancipated." Just a shot in the dark, but are you maybe a native speaker of a language other than English? In which the cognate for "emancipated" might have different social connotations? To me, use of that word sounds a bit like saying "women's lib(ber)" (i.e. archaic, conservative, and dismissive). Or maybe that's just the US context, and you're from another Anglophone country? Either way, that's a big part of what made it sound like you were casting aspersions on the social/political stances of these women (which, like kath said, you can't have much data on).


And then there's the group of women who sends messages and rates people, which kinda indicates that the men they rated are obviously second choice, since they weren't good enough for an initial message.

So when you actually follow up being rated highly with some indicator of interest of your own, you either get someone who methaporically shakes hands of non-white people at every opportunity to prove they're not racist, or you get someone who made it clear you're subpar.

Interesting that you read "doesn't immediately send message" as "thinks I'm subpar." I've never done the OLD thing for anything but making friends, but from a lot of secondhand accounts (including most people in this thread), likes/stars aren't just for people you're not top-tier interested in, but people you don't have the time/guts/immediate connection to message right away. While of course you shouldn't date people who think you're a subpar human(!), you're jumping right to "she thinks I'm a subpar human" based on almost no information, and I can't think of a single way that's fair or useful. Smile

The race analogy is... just kind of baffling, though... are you saying that anyone who responds to your post-star messages is engaging in some form of tokenism (and if so, what kind? "Token Guy I'm Not Interested In"? Or are you denigrating people who respond out of politeness to people they don't want to date?)
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Post by kleenestar on Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:11 pm

Yeah, the dinner analogy is equally weird. I was taught that if you invite someone out in any capacity, it's very rude not to offer to pay for them. Although I'm not dating, I follow this rule when making new friends and (when relevant) in professional contexts. While I don't expect others to follow this rule precisely, I do think there are many circumstances where not offering to pay is both selfish and rude - and it's totally legit not to want to date someone who is selfish and rude. I'm a woman who has basically always been the approacher in romantic contexts, including with the man I married, so I'm calling this correlation bullshit.
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Post by eselle28 on Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:35 pm

I'm one of the women who sometimes uses the star system. These are the situations where I use it:

1. The guy lives in one of a couple towns that are between 2 and 3 hours away. I'm willing to date someone who lives that distance, but other people's opinions about distance vary wildly, and I know from firsthand experience that getting a message from someone who seems compatible but who's far beyond your distance boundaries can be an exercise in disappointment.

2. The guy isn't in my league. This occasionally applies to guys who are more conventionally attractive than ones who are usually interested in me, but more frequently to guys who aren't quite the same "type" as I am. That last one is hard to describe without an example, but I sort of fall in partway between a geek and a yuppie, and men who seem like one or the other of those things often find me interesting. If I run into a profile I like of a person who's vaguely of one of those types, I'll probably write. There are other types of men who I sometimes hit it off with, but where it's much more hit or miss. I'm fairly compatible with some hipster guys, for instance, but it's less predictable whether they're interested in me or aren't all that hot on the idea of going out with someone who owns a lot of cardigans and pencil skirts and has lousy taste in music. If I see a profile I like from a guy who seems more like that type, I might hit star and see if he stars me back before I send my first message.

If I run into a profile that makes me feel unsure about whether I'd like to meet the man who wrote it, rather than unsure about whether he'd be interested in meeting me, I neither write nor star. I generally pass on by the profile and return to it later, which sometimes clarifies my feelings. If I'm still unsure, I'll look elsewhere, and if he writes me in the meantime, I'll consider the message in addition to the profile. The two are usually enough to give me a gut feeling.

kleenestar wrote:Yeah, the dinner analogy is equally weird. I was taught that if you invite someone out in any capacity, it's very rude not to offer to pay for them. Although I'm not dating, I follow this rule when making new friends and (when relevant) in professional contexts. While I don't expect others to follow this rule precisely, I do think there are many circumstances where not offering to pay is both selfish and rude - and it's totally legit not to want to date someone who is selfish and rude. I'm a woman who has basically always been the approacher in romantic contexts, including with the man I married, so I'm calling this correlation bullshit.

I can understand that in many situations, but I think the rule ends up being considerably more troublesome in the dating market than it is when people are making friends or engaging in professional networking. Unlike the other two, dating is still an interaction where the man is more likely to have been the asker. Declaring it universally selfish and rude for a man who did the asking not to offer to pay for both his expenses and his date's means he's probably going to spend considerably more on dates than a woman would, and also creates an incentive for both parties to try to play the passive role rather than be proactive and suggest going out.

I think people should be able to set whatever standards they'd like for behavior on a date and choose not to go out again with people who don't meet those standards, but applying broader labels to someone who chooses not to follow this particular and possibly less-useful-than-it-used-to-be rule of etiquette concerns me a bit.
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Post by kleenestar on Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:07 am

Right, which is why I said that I don't expect others to follow this specific rule, but that nonetheless there are circumstances where not offering to pay is selfish and rude. My point is that one can reveal things about one's character by the way one deals with money - and that even if you think that it's optimal for people to pay their own way on a date, you can still learn something unpleasant about a person by the way they deal with the money issue.

(While I haven't had to come up with a coherent date-money philosophy, it would probably go something like "If you're sharing decision-making, you should share the cost; if not, not.")

Obviously people can come up with their own standards. My point is just that there might be reasons why someone could be pissed about a person not offering to pay that have nothing to do with a performance of gender roles.
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Post by kleenestar on Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:16 am

I'll also explicitly acknowledge: as someone who has a well-paying job, but many of whose friends are highly financially insecure for various reasons (some temporarily, some permanently), I have had to learn how easy it is to financially impose on people who can't afford it - in some cases the hard way. You're probably right, eselle, dating may be different, but I've seen enough friends for whom a more-expensive-than-expected date meant not eating* for the rest of the week that I'm pretty fierce about people being financially respectful of others.

*Which is why we always have food in our fridge and an open-door policy - because no one in my life goes hungry if I can help it.
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Post by kleenestar on Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:21 am

Sorry, one more post and then I will shut up!

If we want to talk about the money thing specifically that's fine, but probably belongs in a new thread.

The reason I originally brought this up was, "I am a woman who has always done the vast majority of the approaching, and I personally might find it rude, depending on the circumstances, if a guy invited me out and did not offer to pay (though as I hate letting anyone pay for me I would not accept). Therefore azazel's made-up point does not reflect at least some portions of reality."
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Post by eselle28 on Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:35 am

I don't think we're actually very far apart on this kleenestar! I think it's vital that people be financially respectful of others, and think it's a very serious warning sign if one's date isn't. I probably come at this from a slightly different angle, as I have a well-paying job and sometimes am asked out fairly regularly by men who are considerably less financially secure, which makes me pretty attuned to the possibility that someone will hesitate to ask someone else out or face some financial pinching as a result of paying for two people's entertainment rather than one's. You rule works for me too, though. For a variety of reasons related to background and work, I tend to know more about date locations than most of my dates, and I tend to approach date planning by describing a few fairly different places in terms of what they offer and relative cost then seeking feedback about where my date would like to go. Given that, it's actually a little hard for me to picture going on a date that hasn't been planned in a fairly collaborative way.

But, yes, on the broader point, I'd agree that the hypothesized correlation at least isn't one that applies to everyone. Oh, and if people want to discuss paying further in any way, I'll split the thread.
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Post by azazel on Sun Oct 19, 2014 6:06 am

Werel wrote:
azazel wrote:
I´m a bit surprised how you gather that from my text? O_o

I'm questioning the emancipation of two very distinct groups of people: the women who rate but don't send messages, and women who would never date a guy who doesn't offer to pay for dates, and I suggest there's significant overlap between the two.

Ah, okay, I think one of the points of confusion here, like kath said, is use of the word "emancipated." Just a shot in the dark, but are you maybe a native speaker of a language other than English? In which the cognate for "emancipated" might have different social connotations? To me, use of that word sounds a bit like saying "women's lib(ber)" (i.e. archaic, conservative, and dismissive). Or maybe that's just the US context, and you're from another Anglophone country? Either way, that's a big part of what made it sound like you were casting aspersions on the social/political stances of these women (which, like kath said, you can't have much data on).

Well, I was casting aspersions on the social/political stances of these women, but I thought you meant I was saying feminism as a whole was hypocritical, which I wasn't.

I'm merely suggesting that most of the women who only rate but do not message only want convenient "equality", and use token efforts to feel good about themselves.

Werel wrote:
Interesting that you read "doesn't immediately send message" as "thinks I'm subpar." I've never done the OLD thing for anything but making friends, but from a lot of secondhand accounts (including most people in this thread), likes/stars aren't just for people you're not top-tier interested in, but people you don't have the time/guts/immediate connection to message right away. While of course you shouldn't date people who think you're a subpar human(!), you're jumping right to "she thinks I'm a subpar human" based on almost no information, and I can't think of a single way that's fair or useful. Smile

But if you don't have time to message them or an immediate connection, that means they're subpar, doesn't it? Otherwise you'd go back when you have time to rate them.

And not having the guts to spend actual effort on connecting with someone, so you send out an effortless equivalent of "hey", that's what I was ranting about in this thread.

Werel wrote:The race analogy is... just kind of baffling, though... are you saying that anyone who responds to your post-star messages is engaging in some form of tokenism (and if so, what kind? "Token Guy I'm Not Interested In"? Or are you denigrating people who respond out of politeness to people they don't want to date?)

No, I was saying that most women who rate but do not message are engaging in some form of tokenism (the kind of "Token Effort To Show I'm A Modern Women So I Approach Dudes (But Don't Want To Spend Effort On It)".

kleenestar wrote:Sorry, one more post and then I will shut up!

If we want to talk about the money thing specifically that's fine, but probably belongs in a new thread.

The reason I originally brought this up was, "I am a woman who has always done the vast majority of the approaching, and I personally might find it rude, depending on the circumstances, if a guy invited me out and did not offer to pay (though as I hate letting anyone pay for me I would not accept). Therefore azazel's made-up point does not reflect at least some portions of reality."

No model ever reflects reality in a perfect way, it should reflect reality enough to be workable.
In this case, I've heard your stance of "the inviter should pay" come most often of women who would rather die than ask a guy out (so they were looking for a justification why to accept being bought), which makes you an outlier of my model.

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Post by nearly_takuan on Sun Oct 19, 2014 6:13 am

It's possible that kleenestar may very well be the almost-brown Scottish cow in this scenario.

Or possibly not, because I also don't see much of a reason to make a whole model out of your anecdata. Especially since it kind of sounds like you made a high-order Lagrange polynomial and called it good.
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Post by Mel on Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:11 am

<mod> Azazel, I directly asked you to stop making negative generalizations about women who use the rating system, and several others pointed out why they found it problematic as well. Now I am warning you formally as a mod. Cut it out. As I said before, if you want to talk about your feelings about being rated but not messaged, or your experiences with women who've done this, that is totally fine (and see my previous post for example phrasing). So please stick to that or drop the subject completely. </mod>
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Post by SadisticToaster on Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:02 am

eselle28 wrote: I sort of fall in partway between a geek and a yuppie

You're a Guppie?

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Post by BasedBuzzed on Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:58 am

Huh, I mostly parse and use the star system as a verdict on profile quality(eg, even if I don't see a viable percentage match and the like, as long as it's written with humour, has good pics, etcetera, I give it 4 to 5 stars).

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Post by azazel on Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:26 pm

BasedBuzzed wrote:Huh, I mostly parse and use the star system as a verdict on profile quality(eg, even if I don't see a viable percentage match and the like, as long as it's written with humour, has good pics, etcetera, I give it 4 to 5 stars).

This is actually the first explanation that doesn't make me feel like a subpar human being. Being liked in non-romantic ways is at least something I have experience with.

nearly_takuan wrote:It's possible that kleenestar may very well be the almost-brown Scottish cow in this scenario.

Or possibly not, because I also don't see much of a reason to make a whole model out of your anecdata. Especially since it kind of sounds like you made a high-order Lagrange polynomial and called it good.

We move on to denying my experiences now? I can assure you I've actually observed quite some non-brown cows.

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Post by reboot on Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:42 pm

<MOD>

I am calling the whole starring/rating topic closed since:
1. This is a thread about "Hey" messages and whether people respond to them
2. Things are getting a bit tense and way off topic.

Azazel, if you wish to discuss starring/rating, please create a separate thread on that topic and follow the guidelines outlined below

</MOD>


Mel wrote:<mod> Azazel, I directly asked you to stop making negative generalizations about women who use the rating system, and several others pointed out why they found it problematic as well. Now I am warning you formally as a mod. Cut it out. As I said before, if you want to talk about your feelings about being rated but not messaged, or your experiences with women who've done this, that is totally fine (and see my previous post for example phrasing). So please stick to that or drop the subject completely. </mod>
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Post by azazel on Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:08 am

Oh the irony XD
I was half convinced by nearly_takuan that my model was extrapolating too much from an isolated set of data, so when I received a "hey" message I thought: Why not check the profile out?

I think this is my personal favorite yet.

Message: "hi Grin [username]"

0% match,

My self summary
Don't hesitate to ask it

What I’m doing with my life
Mmm a lot !

I’m really good at
Don't be so curious :p

I spend a lot of time thinking about
Business stuff Grin

On a typical Friday night I am
In bed reading Wink

You should message me if
Only if you are smart, funny, gentleman !

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Post by Mel on Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:59 am

azazel wrote:Oh the irony XD
I was half convinced by nearly_takuan that my model was extrapolating too much from an isolated set of data, so when I received a "hey" message I thought: Why not check the profile out?

I think this is my personal favorite yet.

<snip>

The only "model" this seems to support to me is the idea that, as many other people in this thread have said themselves, people who send very brief "hey" type messages tend to have sparse profiles and/or not to have paid much attention to things like match percentages. I haven't seen anyone, including nearly, deny that this is a trend. And I'm pretty sure the definition of irony is not "corresponds with what other people have already suggested is true."

But I'm sure you're not referring to the other claims you've made about women's motives, that you've been explicitly asked more than once not to keep making and which I don't see any indication of at all in the example you've provided, right? Side-eye
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Post by azazel on Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:55 am

Ah, but most of them were women, only GG seemed to regularly receive EIOI messages (Effortless Indicators Of Interests). To extrapolate over gender lines would be a true folly, seeing as we still live in a society where gender norms are the norm.

Which is why nearly convinced me to gather some more data, and I have. It's a fruitful day for science!

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Post by Mel on Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:08 am

azazel wrote:Ah, but most of them were women, only GG seemed to regularly receive EIOI messages (Effortless Indicators Of Interests). To extrapolate over gender lines would be a true folly, seeing as we still live in a society where gender norms are the norm.

Which is why nearly convinced me to gather some more data, and I have. It's a fruitful day for science!

Yes, so I suppose we have a data point that women who send "hey" messages may also tend to have sparse profiles and/or not pay attention to match percentages. Which no one disputed was likely to be the case. Still doesn't strike me as particularly "ironic," but whatever.
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Post by Guest on Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:29 am

This is also the case for men who send "hey" messages, as I can attest from extensive experience. No effort in profile usually correlates to no effort in messages. Also seems to correlate to not taking no for an answer, for some reason.

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Post by azazel on Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:34 am

Mel wrote:Still doesn't strike me as particularly "ironic," but whatever.

If you want to discuss the meaning of the word ironic and the ways people (mis)use it, it might be better suited for another thread?

We could also discuss how ironic it is that nothing in Ironic that Alanis Morissete sings about is actually ironic! (which I've got to admit is a personal pet peeve of mine)

I've got to warn you thought, the previous time I tried to correct someone's choice of words by referring them to a dictionary it was seen as a personal attack and I was banned for a month or so. So... don't do that?

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Post by Enail on Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:43 am

<mod> Everyone, this thread is to discuss whether you personally would respond to a 'hey' message, discussing your feelings and experiences and not speculating or asserting that people who send those messages are hypocritical feminists/terribly human beings/etc. I particularly don't want to see any more discussion about whether men or women do it more or for worse reasons (or refuting those assertions - this topic is done). And I definitely don't want to see anything that remotely looks like anyone trying to pursue a related point in roundabout ways.

Azazel, don't get cute. I would strongly suggest to you that you take a break from this topic, and possibly this site, until you've cooled down. I'd rather that you do it on your own than make you take a mod-enforced one.

ETA: I think I should make something clear at this point. You seem to be under the impression that if you use round-about ways to discuss things you've been asked to stop talking about and if you make your snide comments sound sufficiently innocent, we can't take action against you. On the old forum, we tended to be somewhat bound by the letter of the law; that's not the case here. You know the way you're acting is not okay, we know the way you're acting is not okay, that's really all we need to take mod action.

And Azazel, please consider this a warning that you are pretty much out of last chances, and if you would like to continue to be a member of this forum, I'd suggest you make your next comments reflect that.

</mod>


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Post by Guest on Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:50 am

Sorry, wasn't trying to play Oppression Olympics as to who has it worse on OLD, and I'll also bow out of this convo now.

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Post by Enail on Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:43 pm

<mod> And it doesn't seem like this thread really has legs beyond the stuff that was getting heated, so we're locking this thread! </mod>
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