Virgin-Shaming

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Post by nearly_takuan on Mon Oct 27, 2014 1:05 pm

kleenestar wrote:Hey, here's a question that I'd genuinely like input on.

I've definitely said things like, "Given your behavior, I'm not surprised no one wants to [have sex with you | be in a relationship with you | be your friend]," depending on what the person in question seems to be trying to accomplish. Does that always come across as virgin-shaming?

If you said that around me somewhere, yes, it would probably come across that way.

People make the converse error often enough when speaking that, absent an explicit agreement that everyone is nitpicking the logical/mathematical sense of their words, I tend to at least question whether people didn't mean to imply the converse of what they say. From there, it's hard to not see such a comment as a backhanded insult and a value-judgment.

You mean to say that shitty behavior may be a reason that person is alone, but it always (unavoidably?) sounds like you are saying it is the reason. So then what reasons must you (hypothetical or not-so-hypothetical speaker) assume to be the cause of my bandersnatchery?

kleenestar wrote:Because I'm not trying to imply that virginity is shameful, but rather that some sorts of shitty behavior make it a lot less likely that anyone would want to do anything relational / interactive with you, including sex. If it comes off as shitty, how can I make that point in a better way?

I guess what bothers me even after seeing your explanation is that I don't think this is really a point that needs to be made, even if it could be presented in non-shitty ways. I'm opposed to shitty behavior regardless of whether there are direct consequences for the person who is behaving that way.

I think this may also be where observations like "assholes get laid" tend to come in. (Oh, Lemminkainen beat me to it. Razz) Though few in comparison to the number of people I've interacted with, every single person I would sincerely describe as a career bully (male or female) has had a happy relationship, if not (yet) marriage. A couple of those people weren't even necessarily subtle or dishonest about their shitty behavior. If the ability to attract a partner/companion is in any way a measure of a person's overall worth, then I must be worse than they are, which is a notion I'm somewhat resistant to.

ETA: Plus this stacks with internal voices that already say more or less the same thing. "If someone doesn't want to date me, it must be because they don't like me, which means there's something to dislike about me. Two hundred people can't be wrong...."
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Post by kleenestar on Mon Oct 27, 2014 1:24 pm

Okay, this is helpful. So let me clarify some things about the context where I would say this, and then you can tell me whether the issues you've raised still apply.

I would say this to a person whose behavior is directly counterproductive to the thing they claim they want. I wouldn't say this about generic shittiness - though I do often ask people to think about what kind of human being would be willing to be in a relationship with them - but rather about shooting-in-the-foot behavior specific to a goal they have set, which might include "having sex" (but could also be other things). To be totally blunt, I also only use this argument with people who've demonstrated that the only arguments they're willing to accept for modifying their behavior are their personal profit. Even if I can't make them care about others in the abstract, maybe I can get them to do less harm with their behavior by showing that it hurts them personally.

Maybe the piece I'm missing is that I don't actually think the ability to attract a partner is a measure of a person's worth. If you've attracted a partner who is not a shitty, horrible human being, then that's some evidence that you're not one yourself, because they know you better than I can - but that's just one piece of evidence, and it applies just the same to friends, and it also certainly isn't anything more than evidence of how you behave when I can't see you. So maybe you're right and there's no way for me to say this, even in the context I've laid out above, without tapping into the "partner = worth" narrative even if a partner is just one possible piece of evidence to me.
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Post by nearly_takuan on Mon Oct 27, 2014 1:44 pm

kleenestar wrote:Okay, this is helpful. So let me clarify some things about the context where I would say this, and then you can tell me whether the issues you've raised still apply.

I would say this to a person whose behavior is directly counterproductive to the thing they claim they want. I wouldn't say this about generic shittiness - though I do often ask people to think about what kind of human being would be willing to be in a relationship with them - but rather about shooting-in-the-foot behavior specific to a goal they have set, which might include "having sex" (but could also be other things). To be totally blunt, I also only use this argument with people who've demonstrated that the only arguments they're willing to accept for modifying their behavior are their personal profit. Even if I can't make them care about others in the abstract, maybe I can get them to do less harm with their behavior by showing that it hurts them personally.

Oh, huh. Yeah, all that together actually sounds fine to me.

kleenestar wrote:Maybe the piece I'm missing is that I don't actually think the ability to attract a partner is a measure of a person's worth. If you've attracted a partner who is not a shitty, horrible human being, then that's some evidence that you're not one yourself, because they know you better than I can - but that's just one piece of evidence, and it applies just the same to friends, and it also certainly isn't anything more than evidence of how you behave when I can't see you. So maybe you're right and there's no way for me to say this, even in the context I've laid out above, without tapping into the "partner = worth" narrative even if a partner is just one possible piece of evidence to me.

The "partner = worth" narrative is a pretty big piece of the cultural environment I'm stuck in (and in this case I doubt I'm a rarity), so it might sometimes be tricky to set yourself apart from it even though you know you don't mean it that way. But it sounds like you're careful and sensitive to context, so I think you're all right. Wink
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Post by kleenestar on Mon Oct 27, 2014 4:06 pm

Yeah, I grew up with a deep sense of "partner = END OF EVERYTHING" which I think kind of overrode the larger cultural message of "partner = worth." Razz

Sorry, I did think of one other time I'd say "I'm not surprised you're having trouble finding a sexual partner," which is if someone wants something extremely specific and hard to find, and is unwilling to make compromises. But I suspect that saying it in a logistical sense is less hurtful ... yes?

ETA: I also just want to say out loud, in case it helps - I like you a lot and I think you are a pretty damn cool person.
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Post by nearly_takuan on Mon Oct 27, 2014 4:44 pm

Loopy

That felt really good to read. Thank you. :3

Um, I think that logistical phrasing is pretty benign, yeah. It gives the subject...agency, maybe? Removes the whole "no wonder nobody likes you" angle. Then again, I haven't been bombarded by mean cultural messages telling me I'm too picky (or too picky for my "league" or something). So maybe there's potential for collateral damage that I wouldn't immediately recognize?

Eh, at some point it probably becomes my own responsibility to filter out those kinds of things anyway, and not read so much into what some people say about other people. I doubt I can keep everything out, but there's probably a more ethical/rational/appropriate goal I can try for.
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Post by waxingjaney on Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:26 pm

kleenestar wrote:Hey, here's a question that I'd genuinely like input on.

I've definitely said things like, "Given your behavior, I'm not surprised no one wants to [have sex with you | be in a relationship with you | be your friend]," depending on what the person in question seems to be trying to accomplish. Does that always come across as virgin-shaming?

When you generalize like that, yes. What you want to do is frame it as " when you do [behavior X, where X is specifically described], people will be less likely to [behavior Y; again with narrowing detail] with you."
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Post by Herr R on Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:58 am

I've never been directly virgin-shamed. But much like in Glide's neck of the woods, in my culture, one of the only three ways that men can bond with each other (the other two being discussing politics or sports) is bragging and comparing each others sexual histories. If you're a virgin at my age, well then you must obviously be gay and gays are disgusting sub-humans to be mocked and (if you can get away with it) killed on site, according to popular opinion in my culture.

So obviously, for the past 18 years of my life, I've been living with enough self-shame for not being "a real man", to make up for any possible shaming I may have received if people beyond my immediate family found out. And even then, when my sister would get mad at me, she would shame me about it.

Anyway, I've managed (I think) to fool my coworkers into thinking I've "had" a sex life by stretching the truth and even outright lying about having had sex, when asked how many women I've been with, if I've ever fished a dingleberry with my cock whilst engaging in anal sex, etc. I guess my Potemkin Village brand of confidence helps make me seem less awkward than I really am so that helps. But nevertheless, should it ever get out that I'm still a virgin, I think I would die of the shame alone and leave in disgrace.

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Post by Guest on Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:48 pm

Like Herr has said, it's incredibly difficult to find a virgin-accepting crowd. It's difficult to find people who do not give a shit if you've been with no people or a thousand.

I can't claim to know where all of you live or whether or not you know what I mean, but the fact is plain and simple that unless you're either incredibly lucky or a good liar (like Herr and I appear to be), the knowledge that you're a virgin will lead almost immediately to social rejection.

It's not an exaggeration, and I have lost friends over this. Either they'd just ignore me outright or they'd insult me publicly so often that I ditched them. The rest of you can hem and haw over this (another generalization, most of you have been perfectly good about this topic), but it simply is, and it'll continue to be at least in America until a greater social perception is seen.

Virginity past the age of 18 is seen as a mental illness. I'm not kidding. I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who does not live in a sexually enlightened place like New York or Seattle or wherever. I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who lives in a deeply traditional area of the country. Traditional values are upheld where I live.

I don't know if this counts as a split topic or not, but I've seen a lot of examples of people saying "because I don't fit the norm of what is socially acceptable, and my tastes are not conventional, that means everybody is like me." Which is inherently a bit stupid to think. Again, the vast majority of you don't do anything like that, but I've noticed times in which various "non-acceptable topics" (anything to do with the lack of sexual experience, really) are shut up because the vast majority of people have no idea what it's like. Most of you are ignorant about how it feels, yet respond respectfully and kindly. The rest tend to explode.

It's not just the whole virgin thing, and I'm not referring to people who show up and start saying misogynistic crap and Red Pill sentiments. There was a post in which Mikey worried about accidentally being creepy and several people basically told him to shut the hell up about it. Again, this isn't the majority, and if you're worried that I'm talking about you, I'm probably not. It happens just enough to be an issue.

The virgin thing happens to be the thing that gets the greatest amount of flak since virgins are a minority on this forum (primarily male). Someone complains, someone else responds that said person complaining has no right to do so, that it's not a big deal. That person has been me a couple times. It sounds like boasting when you say someone has no right to complain.

And once again, so none of you get mad, this is not the majority of you, and I like the majority of you very much.

So I dunno, am I the only one who feels like only certain topics are "allowed" (not the mods really, just the general attitude of the forum. Mods have been good about all that)? Am I crazy?

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Post by Suika on Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:00 pm

I'd be more pliable to say that I virgin-shame myself for the most part.
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Post by Suika on Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:23 pm

Otherwise, I've seen virgin-shaming as mostly being a failure to put yourself in another persons shoes; the idea that you either can't or don't want to have sex is absolutely foreign to many people.
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Post by Guest on Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:02 am

For the record, I am in the UK but I definitely, definitely think virgin-shaming is a real and nearly ubiquitous phenomenon, whether it be the "virgin living with your mum" stereotype or just generally thinking people are odd if they haven't had sex. Now I'm older than a lot of you (35, with many of my friends in their 40s) so the majority of my friends are not virgins, but I can think of a couple who quite probably are. They haven't said, naturally, and I think the reaction would be more surprise than mocking because of how old we are. But still, yes it is real, yes it is everywhere.

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Post by reboot on Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:24 pm

<mod> I am going to split the discussion of forum behavior and support into a new thread because we are muddying up the virgin shaming topic, but we mods definitely want a place for this discussion <mod>

EDIT: The posts about forum interactions can be found here

Please continue in this thread to discuss virgin shaming
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Post by Gentleman Johnny on Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:08 pm

embertine wrote: just generally thinking people are odd if they haven't had sex.  
I don't know that that's shaming. I'm in roughly the same age group as you and I would definitely find one of my peers being a virgin to be unusual. Not shameful, just unusual, like being a Vegan or a devout Pastafarian.

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Post by nearly_takuan on Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:33 pm

So, OKCupid apparently has this thing.

We're trying to prove our theory that you can't really tell who's done it and who hasn't until you create a large, successful matching service with a very flexible 'Terms And Conditions'.

Y'know, I think all the self-deprecating "we're abusing your agreement to give up private information to us" jokes in the world don't make this more okay. Maybe the ends justify the means? Until they release the data publicly, though, I don't see how this is doing much good. Especially since it's entirely possible some of the folks who are inclined to engage in "virgin shaming" could also get really high scores and come away with their prejudices validated. And everyone who participates is going to pay more attention to their own anecdote than the averages they post.

They're also using photos people post on a dating site, so I have to wonder what it really proves. I imagine one could metagame the thing by choosing all the highest-quality photos on the hypothesis that someone who spends a lot of time and effort getting a good-looking profile together either is more selective than most or hasn't had much luck yet.




Are there similar phenomena we can compare or contrast this to? Virginity's a pretty private thing and not something you can really get evidence of, but people make assumptions and judge other people (or themselves) for it anyway. It seems like (feel free to point out if you've had a different experience) most of the "shaming" comes from people putting the label on someone with what they see as a flaw, whether that's accurate or not. Acquaintances reacting in uncomfortable ways if for some reason you end up "coming out" is of course also a thing, but it's not like random people in public can identify you as a "virgin" on sight—and yet they say it anyway.

The comments on the Skyrim parody video BasedBuzzed posted earlier have a few examples. One of the commenters said something that admittedly was phrased kind of white-knight-y, and...well, got these kinds of replies:
White knight faggot. I bet you married some semi-ugly whale, if you were even lucky

oh my god, the sad part is that you're probably a fat loser with no hopes to get women. at least if you were one of these machos that "get" them..

still a Virgin then?

What a beta faggot. I despise that word because it's usually the first thing that comes pouring out of cunt feminists mouths. Hey Name, how many times have you gotten laid in the last 12 months?

So has your role as a public defender gotten you laid yet?

lose some weight and get a tan you pasty doughy omega [...] youre so low that you are a "yes man" to Betas.

They don't know anything about him, but these are the insults they go for.

(Also, if you're wondering what "that word" is that the fourth example is referring to, I'm pretty sure it's "misogynist".)

What can you even say to these people? silent
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Post by Herr R on Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:12 pm

I think a good way to describe just how bad it could be if it got out that I haven't had sex yet, lets use this tiny bit of real-life drama.

So I bought a sex toy for men. I personally don't think there should be anything bad about guys using sex toys. Of course I am aware that even so, there is yet another stigma regarding male sex toys and the men who use them.

Anyway, I'm not sure just how real or not the rumor is (the guy who started it is known for being a joker). But apparently it got out that someone found a sex toy in my apartment and they linked it to Yours Truly. I'm more worried about who the fuck would go around my shit than my masturbatory habits. Yet once the rumor started, I went into denial and deflection mode. It's bad enough if a guy who supposedly has sex uses a toy. Imagine a guy who's never had it using one and the ridicule.

Basically, now I'm even ashamed of owning a pocket pussy.

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Post by Kiskadee on Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:45 pm

Aaaah, that "Virgin Game" on OKCupid is horrifying. I guess I get what I deserve for posting private information and photos on an ethically dubious website, but seriously the idea of being used for this had me almost in tears. Since there are a lot fewer adult virgins than not, I image you're much more likely to be included if you are one (I'm super sensitive about being a virgin at my age, btw). The only reason I ended up mentioning that I haven't had sex on my profile is to avoid real-life virgin shaming.

Also so many people are shit bad at math and don't understand that given a set of questions with two choices, it's possible to answer randomly and still get high scores fairly often.

@Herr: That really sucks. Roommates who can't mind their own business are the worst. I once had one the other way around, who was determined to protect my "innocence," despite knowing absolutely nothing about my personal life. She yelled at me once when I got a package (from my mom...) about how I had better not order any sex toys. In front of all our other roommates, too, but at least everyone knew she was crazy.
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Post by Guest on Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:02 pm

Kiskadee wrote:Aaaah, that "Virgin Game" on OKCupid is horrifying.  I guess I get what I deserve for posting private information and photos on an ethically dubious website, but seriously the idea of being used for this had me almost in tears.  Since there are a lot fewer adult virgins than not, I image you're much more likely to be included if you are one (I'm super sensitive about being a virgin at my age, btw).  The only reason I ended up mentioning that I haven't had sex on my profile is to avoid real-life virgin shaming.

Also so many people are shit bad at math and don't understand that given a set of questions with two choices, it's possible to answer randomly and still get high scores fairly often.

@Herr: That really sucks.  Roommates who can't mind their own business are the worst.  I once had one the other way around, who was determined to protect my "innocence," despite knowing absolutely nothing about my personal life.  She yelled at me once when I got a package (from my mom...) about how I had better not order any sex toys.  In front of all our other roommates, too, but at least everyone knew she was crazy.  

"No, virgin shaming isn't real." Fuck whoever said that. Not on this forum, I mean like in general.

I just stared at that link in quiet silence like "Jesus Christ, there's nowhere I can hide."

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Post by readertorider on Sat Nov 01, 2014 12:02 pm

Yikes. That game does look horrifying. Didn't think of the individual metagaming/ancedotal aspects, but I think plenty of people who do poorly are going to either take it as a challenge to improve their virgin-spotting skills or assume that people are lying/OKCupid is picking exceptions that prove the rule/'virgin' is being used incorrectly and investigate to prove themselves right. Also, I don't know if OKCupid is doing anything to protect against reverse image search, but the people who signed up for the site presumably didn't sign up for the extra publicity. Really sorry you're having to deal with this, Kiskadee (and anyone else on the site).

I also dealt with the "mature girls have sex" narrative in middle/high school. In books/fic as well there's a sense that adult literature = sex which also reinforced the message I got from school/peers. Plenty of sex positive bloggers also share their stories about sex in their teens (I think partly to share their experience and partly for the reputation that would allow them to reach specific audiences) which is completely their prerogative, but does make me feel a little shamed. In college I did think about asking a good friend if he'd like to have sex with me (it seems every campus has legends about what the statues do if a virgin graduates or walks across the quad at midnight or whatever and I wanted to see what the fuss was about) but ultimately any shaming I've had has been mild and more along the lines of people seeing me as an outlier or immature.

I'm starting to dislike it when people call out things with "no wonder you never get laid" in arguments. It seems to set up the ill-logic that people who are nice will get laid (reinforces the Nice Guy) and shames any person who had has sex with bozo which just seems to reinforce any "woman as gatekeepers" mythology floating around. I'll admit a certain satisfaction when I see it in Rooshv's comment section, but it usually doesn't lead anywhere productive.
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Post by nearly_takuan on Sat Nov 01, 2014 1:01 pm

readertorider wrote:Yikes. That game does look horrifying. Didn't think of the individual metagaming/ancedotal aspects, but I think plenty of people who do poorly are going to either take it as a challenge to improve their virgin-spotting skills or assume that people are lying/OKCupid is picking exceptions that prove the rule/'virgin' is being used incorrectly and investigate to prove themselves right. Also, I don't know if OKCupid is doing anything to protect against reverse image search, but the people who signed up for the site presumably didn't sign up for the extra publicity. Really sorry you're having to deal with this, Kiskadee (and anyone else on the site).

They can't possibly have protections against taking a cropped screenshot and searching it. But even though you could do that and determine that various strangers are 15 times more likely to be virgins than the average person, I'd be more concerned about people setting people they already know on there.

I didn't even think about how a person with a shitty disposition might handle a low score! You're right, I think no matter what they do this "game" isn't accomplishing anything positive.

I'm starting to dislike it when people call out things with "no wonder you never get laid" in arguments. It seems to set up the ill-logic that people who are nice will get laid (reinforces the Nice Guy) and shames any person who had has sex with bozo which just seems to reinforce any "woman as gatekeepers" mythology floating around. I'll admit a certain satisfaction when I see it in Rooshv's comment section, but it usually doesn't lead anywhere productive.

Huh. I generally think of it in the other direction, as reinforcing the redpiller "nice guys finish last" and "dominant alpha male bullies get laid" memes. Because, well, the people saying those kinds of things must not be virgins. And they're obviously assholes. (kleenestar's rather more pleasant version of it is an exceptionto the rule, of course.) I'll agree it comes with some gross gatekeeper ideas, though.
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Post by readertorider on Sat Nov 01, 2014 1:54 pm

nearly_takuan wrote:
They can't possibly have protections against taking a cropped screenshot and searching it. But even though you could do that and determine that various strangers are 15 times more likely to be virgins than the average person, I'd be more concerned about people setting people they already know on there.

I was thinking more along the lines of OKCupid mirroring the profile picture and maybe running it through a few color filters before using it in their "game". Wouldn't do much to fool friends or the truly committed, but might stop a cursory reverse google. Didn't think about people they already know seeing it--and this possibly could reach beyond the online dating community. You're definitely right that it could be potentially more damaging than I was thinking. OKC where are your ethics?

nearly_takuan wrote:
Huh. I generally think of it in the other direction, as reinforcing the redpiller "nice guys finish last" and "dominant alpha male bullies get laid" memes. Because, well, the people saying those kinds of things must not be virgins. And they're obviously assholes. (kleenestar's rather more pleasant version of it is an exceptionto the rule, of course.) I'll agree it comes with some gross gatekeeper ideas, though.
I usually see this type of thing when I read PUA/redpill blogs/comments and there's a very reasonable (likely female) commentator saying something in response like, "if this is how you talk to/about women it's no wonder no woman wants to sleep with you". It's interesting though that the messages seem to be coming in from both directions.
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Post by Guest on Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:15 pm

readertorider wrote:Yikes. That game does look horrifying. Didn't think of the individual metagaming/ancedotal aspects, but I think plenty of people who do poorly are going to either take it as a challenge to improve their virgin-spotting skills or assume that people are lying/OKCupid is picking exceptions that prove the rule/'virgin' is being used incorrectly and investigate to prove themselves right. Also, I don't know if OKCupid is doing anything to protect against reverse image search, but the people who signed up for the site presumably didn't sign up for the extra publicity. Really sorry you're having to deal with this, Kiskadee (and anyone else on the site).

That just cemented how I will never use online dating as long as I live. There's no way in hell I'm gonna risk being called out as a virgin online. Hell, if an entire social network is dedicated to mocking my kind, I see it as a good perspective of how the rest of the world views us. I'm actually starting to doubt that the involuntarily celibate (and to be more specific, not the Red Pill ones) will ever be accepted in public. We'll have to die lying.

I also dealt with the "mature girls have sex" narrative in middle/high school. In books/fic as well there's a sense that adult literature = sex which also reinforced the message I got from school/peers. Plenty of sex positive bloggers also share their stories about sex in their teens (I think partly to share their experience and partly for the reputation that would allow them to reach specific audiences) which is completely their prerogative, but does make me feel a little shamed. In college I did think about asking a good friend if he'd like to have sex with me (it seems every campus has legends about what the statues do if a virgin graduates or walks across the quad at midnight or whatever and I wanted to see what the fuss was about) but ultimately any shaming I've had has been mild and more along the lines of people seeing me as an outlier or immature.

I remember trying to read the sex positive blogs, thinking that perhaps that was where I would find whatever crucial info I needed (on what, I don't really know). But most of it was just people bragging about how they'd popped their cherries at thirteen, all the kinky stuff they did, it was just pages and pages of bragging and almost no real advice. There was this one about a woman who was a sex surrogate, and she clearly had a virgin fetish. She talked about these guys like they were five year olds. It just made me feel absolutely awful about myself, and furthered cemented the belief that only "real men" get laid, and often.

I dunno, I see the sex positive movement as the opposite extreme of the Red Pill. Both sides shame the other. I wouldn't even call them "sex positive", what with all the virgin-shaming they partake in. [/quote]


nearly_takuan wrote:
Huh. I generally think of it in the other direction, as reinforcing the redpiller "nice guys finish last" and "dominant alpha male bullies get laid" memes. Because, well, the people saying those kinds of things must not be virgins. And they're obviously assholes. (kleenestar's rather more pleasant version of it is an exceptionto the rule, of course.) I'll agree it comes with some gross gatekeeper ideas, though.
I usually see this type of thing when I read PUA/redpill blogs/comments and there's a very reasonable (likely female) commentator saying something in response like, "if this is how you talk to/about women it's no wonder no woman wants to sleep with you". It's interesting though that the messages seem to be coming in from both directions.[/quote]

Kleenestar got worried about saying something like that, but that doesn't really count as virgin-shaming, does it? You've got a far better chance being a virgin who takes his licks and doesn't complain then one who does. If I spent all my time whining about how horrible it is to be me (in public, I don't mean here, which I really need to stop doing Razz ), no one would ever talk to me. Logical, it's annoying to hear people complain.

Talking to people you're attracted to is hard, especially if you're not physically attractive. And many people don't like to acknowledge that, as obvious as it sounds. People don't want to admit that they're ugly, that some people simply aren't built for sex, aren't designed to reproduce and enjoy themselves. They could very well be curing cancer or something. They might die virgins, but at least they didn't waste their lives. Isaac Newton was historically terrible with women and died a virgin, but look what he did. Frankly, the Red Pillers should take up his example. Dude didn't cry about no one ever wanting his dick, dude discovered the laws of gravity and invented calculus. Or maybe he did do that, but he still invented calculus in the meantime. Could anyone call him a defective human being? If you can't reproduce or find a mate, your only other option is to earn your life in another way.

I mean, obviously the point of all this isn't to say "oh yeah only virgins ever get anywhere in life because they're not distracted by le sex", because he and Nikola Tesla are the only two virgins who ever accomplished anything in all of human history. Mother Teresa doesn't count, she was an awful human being. So don't interpret this as a "having sex is bad" thing, because the majority of successful people have sex. Every other virgin just died naturally or killed themselves, that's the circle of life.

Again, the Red Pill could benefit from that kind of mentality, as long as you're not curing cancer to get ass.

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Post by nearly_takuan on Sun Nov 02, 2014 9:44 am

Glides wrote:
I usually see this type of thing when I read PUA/redpill blogs/comments and there's a very reasonable (likely female) commentator saying something in response like, "if this is how you talk to/about women it's no wonder no woman wants to sleep with you". It's interesting though that the messages seem to be coming in from both directions.

Ah, I see. Yeah, I don't generally spend any time in PUA-leaning spaces 'cause everything they do is orthogonal to my interests. They have nothing useful to offer me, and I have nothing useful to offer them. So most of the heckling I've seen has been either from internet tough guys reaching for slurs to use on other internet tough guys or from women in any of several contexts—meatspace/among friends, online feminist spaces, OLD, advice columns. I dunno, maybe I shouldn't blame them for speaking their minds when they find a place that doesn't feel oppressed by a patriarchy to them.




So, it mostly sounds like this is a near-ubiquitous cultural phenomenon, and men seem to usually get the worst of it. As for what to do about it... I'm wondering if there have been similar sorts of things where one generation had to be persuaded that something was impolite before the next could be convinced that it's ignorant and/or immoral.

Of course, things are going to be the same or worse for the foreseeable future, so anything we can do by ourselves is going to have more immediate benefit. So I'm still interested in revisiting the question of what one can say or do to discourage heckling, but also:

Suika wrote:I'd be more pliable to say that I virgin-shame myself for the most part.

It seems like we should be able to do something about that part. And preferably without reinforcing the equal-and-opposite narratives that "praise" virginity as some kind of morally superior thing—I have no interest in playing oppression ping pong with the sex-pos movement.
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Post by reboot on Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:17 am

There are definitely terms/slurs that were made impolite and then became ignorant/immoral. Colored, negro, nigger, spic, jap, chink, wop, kike, polock, faggot, dyke, old maid, spinster, etc. were all terms I heard growing up  (in different communities they had passed into ignorant/immoral already) but no one my age uses them anymore in public spaces (private may be different or private spaced I am not in since I am an SJW).

Online the change will take longer because of anonymity.
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Post by BasedBuzzed on Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:57 pm

@the Virgin Game

Huh, I tried to metagame and go with geeks=kinksters, WASPy looks=probably Christians, and disheveled looks=lower-class=earlier sex, and I still scored low(61%) but still better than 64% of the people. Glad they didn't go with the bog-standard reverse psychology nonsense that would create a new set of stereotypes.

@slurs

Euphemism treadmill will ensure a steady supply of slurs(especially now that parodies of well-intentioned PC alternatives are the new slurs) no matter what era you're in. However, people will get better at detecting them, methinks.

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Post by Kiskadee on Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:10 am

Still kinda bothered by that virgin game - I've actually run into a coworker on OKC by accident already. And possibly the worse thing (!) is that you don't even have to sign up for an account to play it and view people.

@Glides, just to be clear, you don't have to indicate anywhere on the profile anything about your sexual history if you don't want. My life is a cautionary tale, not an example for others! I would hate to think that my comments could potentially get in the way of something that might turn out well for you.
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