Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric

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Post by Mel on Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:21 pm

eselle28 wrote:Something occurred to me: I see men mentioning that they don't feel they're allowed to be sad. I think it's worth considering that the gender policing twin of that is that women aren't allowed to be angry. I would say that at this point, men are given more rein to be sad than women are to be angry - even when women are talking about being oppressed and discriminated against and harassed, they're expected to be soft and sweet and accommodating.

There's also the element that--everyone is "allowed" to be sad, but men are shamed for it. But you know what, technically women are shamed for it too, just not as overtly. If a woman breaks down in tears, people might not make a big deal about it, but that's not because women getting sad-emotional is seen as a good thing, but because it's expected that women are weak unstable creatures and so of course they're going to do something weak and unstable like crying. The crying is still seen as a negative, it's just... an expected negative in with the woman?* The main reason men get shamed for showing sad-emotions is because they're behaving "like women" (being a "sissy" etc.).

A really good article about the gender divide in emotions, especially re: anger--http://www.thegloss.com/2012/11/12/career/bullish-life-men-are-too-emotional-to-have-a-rational-argument-994/

*Talking about the views of the general public; I acknowledge that in private it's easier for women to feel they're not judged negatively for crying etc. by close family or friends than for men in the same scenario.

(Possibly this is getting to tangential and should be split off? Not sure?)
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Post by Mel on Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:29 pm

BasedBuzzed wrote:What further complicates things are:
a)sentiments that parse as private venting that are problematic(not just person X being beaten up by minority Y for the third time going on a racist rant, but also non-dominant groups perpetuating ignorant stereotypes à la *"dude complained about pushy dudette, doesn't know he doesn't have to fear drunken rape" going into tangent about own problems*)
b)people asserting these opinions in an explicitly public space to provoke Lewis' Law
c)retroactive claims of hijack if the discussion moves in the wrong direction
d)how much of the argument can be flipped to guard against callouts("how dare you comment my art isn't diverse, this wasn't intended for you anyway")

I wonder (somewhat vis-a-vis my gender relations post) whether you feel this way about non-gender issues too?  I mean, do you feel a PoC saying something unfair if they vent about racial beatings and suggest that white people don't have to worry about this, despite the fact that white people do sometimes get beat up by PoC?  Or that it's unfair for a PoC to tell off someone who complains that they didn't include any white people in their art?

It seems to me that in the above situations, we can generally accept that these are not actually equivalents that can be "flipped".  That societal racial dynamics mean that a PoC being beat up by white people for his/her race has quite different connotations and positioning in society than a white person beaten up by PoC, and that art that doesn't represent white people should be evaluated for "diversity" much differently than art that doesn't represent anything but white people, since in the art world at large white people are vastly over-represented.  Just like how white-washing a character is considered a problem and casting a previously white character with a PoC is not.  Context matters.  I think it should for gender too.

Edit: To expand a little, this is where we get into the "punching down" idea. It is worse for a man to try to bring his issues into a discussion between women than it is for a woman to bring her issues into a discussion between men because men in general are in a position of more power: their issues are considered more often already, society is generally tilted in their favor, they can get people to listen to them more easily, etc. A man complaining about a "male tears" joke is doing so in the context of a society where there are relatively few depictions of men being ridiculous for being sad about something and relatively many depictions of women being ridiculous for being sad about something (just as a brief example, how many shows/movies/etc. have a humorous portrayal of a woman freaking out over a clothing item?). I don't think most women would say we should never be able to make fun of women being emotional in supposedly ridiculous ways... it just shouldn't be so common, and that's what they'd be complaining about. But it isn't actually all that common for men, and to suggest it shouldn't happen at all for men, just because women would like it to happen less to them... You see where this is going?


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Post by fakely mctest on Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:34 pm

Mel wrote:It seems to me that in the above situations, we can generally accept that these are not actually equivalents that can be "flipped".  That societal racial dynamics mean that a PoC being beat up by white people for his/her race has quite different connotations and positioning in society than a white person beaten up by PoC, and that art that doesn't represent white people should be evaluated for "diversity" much differently than art that doesn't represent anything but white people, since in the art world at large white people are vastly over-represented.  Just like how white-washing a character is considered a problem and casting a previously white character with a PoC is not.  Context matters.  I think it should for gender too.

Exactly. Context is absolutely key, which is why the (oft-mocked) difference between racism and prejudice is really important. An act without societal power dynamics behind it is shitty; that same act with social context is potentially a hate crime.

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Post by BasedBuzzed on Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:32 pm

First off, I dislike the prejudice-plus-power stuff. It's overtly Western-centric, ignores discrimination that doesn't fall on the white-vs.-the-rest scale in Western societies itself, and ignores 'systematic/institutionalized/subconscious' qualifiers that we all ready have, instead almost always prompting semantic quibbling. Since I hate the latter, for the rest of the thread, you can parse instances I use racism as prejudice, and I will parse times you use racism as institutionalized racism/whatever adjective seems most appropriate.

Context matters indeed, but viewing everything on a macro-scale ignores the subtleties of power dynamics. Taking the beating example: demographic make-up of the local area(retaliation if one goes to the police about it, anti-snitching culture), political alignment of the local area(police that are biased against PoC, or police that veer into the other direction à la Rotherham), other privileges that do not yet constitute things as hate crimes(autism-spectrum disorders that are debilitating enough to provoke attacks, but not enough to make people take it seriously as a reason to be attacked, for example), prejudice against alternative sexualities more prevalent among different ethnic demographics and economic disparity can all influence those power dynamics.

Some of these are already taken into account in intersectionality, and some local power dynamics. What constitutes punching up is often elusive. Is making fun of rednecks punching up, or just a way for the college elite to laugh at the poor under the guise of mocking racism/sexism/etcetera?

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Post by fakely mctest on Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:50 pm

BasedBuzzed wrote:First off, I dislike the prejudice-plus-power stuff. It's overtly Western-centric, ignores discrimination that doesn't fall on the white-vs.-the-rest scale in Western societies itself, and ignores 'systematic/institutionalized/subconscious' qualifiers that we all ready have, instead almost always prompting semantic quibbling. Since I hate the latter, for the rest of the thread, you can parse instances I use racism as prejudice, and I will parse times you use racism as institutionalized racism/whatever adjective seems most appropriate.

Context matters indeed, but viewing everything on a macro-scale ignores the subtleties of power dynamics. Taking the beating example: demographic make-up of the local area(retaliation if one goes to the police about it, anti-snitching culture), political alignment of the local area(police that are biased against PoC, or police that veer into the other direction à la Rotherham), other privileges that do not yet constitute things as hate crimes(autism-spectrum disorders that are debilitating enough to provoke attacks, but not enough to make people take it seriously as a reason to be attacked, for example), prejudice against alternative sexualities more prevalent among different ethnic demographics and economic disparity can all influence those power dynamics.

Some of these are already taken into account in intersectionality, and some local power dynamics. What constitutes punching up is often elusive. Is making fun of rednecks punching up, or just a way for the college elite to laugh at the poor under the guise of mocking racism/sexism/etcetera?

If we're not discussing things from a Western viewpoint the definition would obviously shift, but since we are I'm not sure what your point is there? The fact is, thanks to the history of Colonialism, it's really hard to find a place where the Western viewpoint doesn't come into play at least a little bit, but I definitely grant that there are nuances that you'd really have to be in the culture to grasp.

Classifying something as a hate crime is basically what the law can do for you. I used it as a quick and dirty way to illustrate the differences between the two situations and I should have been more nuanced. The law, by design, changes very slowly and is far behind the curve when it comes to recognizing new protected groups.

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Post by Mel on Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:52 pm

<mod> BasedBuzzed, I suggest you re-read the forum guidelines. Particularly #5. We are not open to debates about whether privilege (male or otherwise) is a thing that exists. </mod>

And I guess I should take it from your response that although you didn't respond to my actual questions, you would in fact take issue with a PoC suggesting white folks don't have to worry about racial beatings while venting on that subject, or telling off someone who expected them to include white people in their art to be diverse?

Frankly, I think it speaks a lot to your privilege right there that you can so easily dismiss the macro level of power dynamics as if it's barely important compared to the micro. The fact that there may be situational variations doesn't erase the massive pressure of the macro level dynamics for those of us subjected to them, any more than, say, a guy who happens to find a community of people who are totally accepting of male vulnerability will magically no longer be impacted by the messages in the media, on the internet, from people outside that community which he will no doubt interact with at some point, from everything he's absorbed before he found that community, etc.
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Post by reboot on Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:53 pm

I would call redneck mocking punching down if done by college elites (class privilege) and punching up if done by immigrant migrant workers.

As for discussing the intergroup dynamics of a group you are not a part of, such as your example of sexuality within certain communities, personally, I think that even believing you have any voice in that discussion is the height of privilege. You (general you) thinking you can pop in and say anything of relevance on the intergroup dynamics of a group you are not a part of is freaking presumptuous. It would be like me barging into the deaf community and giving my $0.02 on cochlear implants. Why the fuck should my opinion matter?
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Post by celette482 on Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:57 pm

reboot wrote:I would call redneck mocking punching down if done by college elites (class privilege) and punching up if done by immigrant migrant workers.

As for discussing the intergroup dynamics of a group you are not a part of, such as your example of sexuality within certain communities, personally, I think that even believing you have any voice in that discussion is the height of privilege. You (general you) thinking you can pop in and say anything of relevance on the intergroup dynamics of a group you are not a part of is freaking presumptuous. It would be like me barging into the deaf community and giving my $0.02 on cochlear implants. Why the fuck should my opinion matter?

Amen to all of this.
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Post by nearly_takuan on Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:31 pm

eselle28 wrote:So do asexual spaces cater to the feelings of sexual people all the time? Should they?
Depends on which asexual spaces we're talking about, but in the ones that do not, I assert against anything I can recognize as mean.

Speaking of which, that wasn't cool, Hermit. Neutral

The exception is when it is aimed at me, too, e.g. aro-aces saying things about anyone who does feel the need for romantic companionship. They are kind of telling me that I am not one of them, any more than a cis-het scumbucket would be. Who am I to argue? The same goes for female/feminist aces ranting about men. They are More Misunderstood than the rest of us, and so it would be Problematic and Selfish for me to point out anything wrong with what they say.

The same goes for other communities that I thought would represent me in some way but do not. I read a meaning into #NotYourAsianSidekick that I liked when I first encountered it, but then I learned what it was actually being used for. It is of course fine that there is a community that wants to use and identify with that tag, and it is fine that they include and exclude what they please. I merely find it disappointing that there is no comparable movement to aid the visibility of an equally-sidelined group.

eselle28 wrote:If most of their spaces become forums for sexual people to argue with them about how they're wrong, is that  a good, inclusive thing?
I do not think this translates well, because our group is very small and ineffective, and our biggest problem is visibility and understanding from the public. Groups like AVEN simply do not get much attention from sexual people, even when you actually have some probable cause to bother looking it up.

To answer the pure hypothetical, though, of course this would not be a good thing. I invite arguments with sexual people to the extent that getting people to understand/learn more about our orientation often requires a more direct and personal form of clarification than "look at this chart and never question it", but there is very little potential for such discussions to serve more pressing short-term needs within what passes for a community, so there are places on AVEN where any attempt to raise a dispute over how real asexuality is is simply ignored and eventually removed from sight. Again, I think in this case our problem with invisibility actually helps the mods avoid getting overrun by trolls, and it is easier to sort through a relatively low amount of noise to find the people with a genuine interest in understanding and helping us.

In "meatspace"? There just isn't any form of local infrastructure or community for asexuals. Or Japanese-American males (who didn't grow up here and don't speak Japanese).

Enail wrote:Pragmatically, in regards to asking people who use it to/around you not to use it or explaining the gender role enforcement problem with "male tears,"  I think you're more likely to have success if you try to speak to people after the fact. As we've discussed here, it's often something used in moments of particular frustration with having to cater to privileged group, or at a bit of a "wow, it's so exciting to not have to cater here" in-group bonding, both of which are times where people are likely to react pretty negatively to someone from the privileged group it's about turning the conversation once again to the feelings of that group. Speaking afterwards shows that it's in good faith, not just a clever tactic to derail, and gives you a less heated situation to explain your concerns in.

That sounds too much like digging up old grudges and keeping score, both of which are decidedly un-manly. Razz

Re: "sadness", I do not feel like I am (or men are) prohibited from being sad or angry, just from expressing those emotions in certain ways. Some of those expectations are plainly unreasonable, but I am generally willing and able to comply anyway. I do not see how the "tears" thing reinforces this in any significant way.
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Post by eselle28 on Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:35 pm

Redneck is complicated in that it can be both a classist pejorative, a pejorative aimed at a more privileged group that's being assholish about its privilege while doubling down on the ways its not privileged, and a bonding-type term among people who are from similar backgrounds.

I have minor claim to the label, but tend to be pretty careful about using it. I'm less prone to judge when someone who "rednecks" tend to exercise privilege over use it.
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Post by eselle28 on Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:44 pm

Hey, so I was losing my temper a bit last night, so I apologize, nearly_takuan. I thank you for talking constructively about the community I drug into the debate, even though it wasn't fair of me to do so.

I think that the crux of the issue for me is, that while I don't much like the "Male Tears" meme, I also don't want to be forced into the molds of Clarisse Thorn or Arden Leigh, or any one of a number of women who focus on things that are not as much my concern and who spend a lot of time being kind and understanding to their male audiences. Don't get me wrong. They're feminists, and there should be plenty of room for them in feminism. I just don't think that they should be the mold into which all of us have to be melted in order to have some acceptance. Sometimes the ways that society at large and particular men in specific oppress women are angry-making. I think it's okay for me to be angry and for other women to be angry. I don't think all forms of expressing that are appropriate, but I think there need to be spaces for things that are other than kind motherly women or sexy cute flirty women talking about feminism to men. I also support other groups having spaces like that - even though most of them will probably make me uneasy and some of them may not be spaces I'm comfortable visiting.
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Post by BasedBuzzed on Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:47 pm

My apologies for not directly answering the question, but of course a black person is fair in saying whites don't have too worry about racial beatings as much, and can expect a hell of lot more media attention somewhat depending on what area of the States they live in, including the standard who-can-find-the-worst-looking-photo-of-the-perp jazz, doxxing of the family, and calls for lynch mobs on the internet, and the crap racebending folks get is utterly asinine(save for perhaps the notion that some racebending relies too much on race-X-as-a-monocultural group).

But how can you parse that post as saying privilege doesn't exist, instead of saying privilege doesn't go far enough yet in its regard for situational detail, which I think is vital to distinguish the places it makes sense and when it doesn't in, especially in an age in which everyone appropriates it as a toolbox to shout "I'm actually the one being oppressed"(see the GG debacle for the latest and in my opinion most effective example, seeing as it now comes from a libertarian but still left-leaning and above all young segment of the population instead of older right-wing Christians)?

How is acknowledging intergroup dynamics one is not a part of in any way speaking over them, unless used as tuo quoque/distraction? In the example of the deaf community it would go "I've read X on the cochlear implants controversy and understand there are stereotypes of how being deaf is a disability, while there's a large ignored culture around the phenomenon", which would signal that you don't need the 101 and are not privy to some of the ableist assumptions they constantly get confronted with. Nowhere that I can did I imply "I understand X community enough to be an authority" and I apologize if that seemed to be the case. Knowledge of those dynamics is also important, especially in cases where the establishment plays out different groups against each other(for a Dutch example, Turkish folks being used as club against less intergrated Moroccan folks, and this largely being due to a city vs. country source of migrants).

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Post by celette482 on Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:56 pm

The question then becomes, why are you talking to the deaf community about cochlear implants at all? I took Art History in college. I don't walk into Sotherby's (a famous auction house) and give lectures on authenticity. What do you have to offer?
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Post by Mel on Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:58 pm

Well, when you complain about "prejudice vs. power" and say something like "you can parse instances I use racism as prejudice, and I will parse times you use racism as institutionalized racism/whatever adjective seems most appropriate" it sounds like you're denying that power (i.e., privilege) plays a major role in how prejudice comes across, and that institutionalized racism is a thing that has much if any bearing on the discussion in your mind.

Especially when you're saying it in response to people pointing out that the supposed "flipping" etc. that you mentioned earlier is not really flipping because of those different power dynamics, so it sounds like you're denying that's true too.

I'm not really sure how you can not see how that would have come across as dismissive, so, maybe give it a little more thought?
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Post by reboot on Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:04 pm

celette482 wrote:The question then becomes, why are you talking to the deaf community about cochlear implants at all? I took Art History in college. I don't walk into Sotherby's (a famous auction house) and give lectures on authenticity. What do you have to offer?

Exactly. In some situations your (general) opinion does not matter and it is a discussion where your role is to listen and learn. This is especially true when the discussion has zero effect on you and your life. Why would you believe you had anything of value to add to the topic?

For example, I mentioned participating in Middle Eastern feminist discussion forum. My participation is primarily listening. I do not comment on things I am never going to experience beyond asking how best to approach specific situations as an outsider. My commentary on the hijab, inter sectarian issues, Islamic divorce courts, etc. is irrelevant at best, presumptuous always, and offensive at worst.
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Post by celette482 on Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:09 pm

reboot wrote:
For example, I mentioned participating in Middle Eastern feminist discussion forum. My participation is primarily listening. I do not comment on things I am never going to experience beyond asking how best to approach specific situations as an outsider. My commentary on the hijab, inter sectarian issues, Islamic divorce courts, etc. is irrelevant at best, presumptuous always, and offensive at worst.

Right. It's one thing to say "In conservative Christian circles, there's this big debate raging about the proper grounds for religious divorce. What are some generally accepted grounds for divorce in Islamic divorce courts?" and an entirely different thing to say "Women in Islam are oppressed because they can't just walk away from marriage!"

And even in that first case, you best be sure you're in the right place to ask questions because sometimes people are tired of educating and aren't interested even in your well-meaning questions.
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Post by BasedBuzzed on Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:16 pm

^Point taken. I'll be more clear and subtle from now on.

^^^But you're not giving a lecture(or at least, not intending to come across as such). It's the difference between giving some indication of a level of knowledge, versus having the final word on it. Of course, context too.

Me going 'hey, I know X groupers look at Y in this and that way depending on what branch you're in' into an X-grouper's forum is different than me pointing out this aspect in a mixed forum where the point hasn't been made yet, even though any of the participants might already know this better than I do(and in this context, the discussion in the thread was on a broad range of -isms, some of which I myself am directly a part of). Alternatively, I could take a few minutes to find a link and quote the relevant bit from a writer with the representative characteristics, but such points are obvious enough to not count as knowledge-stealing(I guess?).

Edit: point on context already made by the previous posters.


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Post by UristMcBunny on Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:18 pm

eselle28 wrote:Hey, so I was losing my temper a bit last night, so I apologize, nearly_takuan. I thank you for talking constructively about the community I drug into the debate, even though it wasn't fair of me to do so.

I think that the crux of the issue for me is, that while I don't much like the "Male Tears" meme, I also don't want to be forced into the molds of Clarisse Thorn or Arden Leigh, or any one of a number of women who focus on things that are not as much my concern and who spend a lot of time being kind and understanding to their male audiences. Don't get me wrong. They're feminists, and there should be plenty of room for them in feminism. I just don't think that they should be the mold into which all of us have to be melted in order to have some acceptance. Sometimes the ways that society at large and particular men in specific oppress women are angry-making. I think it's okay for me to be angry and for other women to be angry. I don't think all forms of expressing that are appropriate, but I think there need to be spaces for things that are other than kind motherly women or sexy cute flirty women talking about feminism to men. I also support other groups having spaces like that - even though most of them will probably make me uneasy and some of them may not be spaces I'm comfortable visiting.

This is an important point.

Outreach is important.  Spreading awareness is important.  Educating potential allies is important.  But those things cannot be all the movement does, or the end result is lots of people nodding their heads and making sympathetic noises about  social justice but no one actually doing anything. Sometimes, what needs to happen is for people who are already past that stage to speak, without needing to stop to educate others. Sometimes it's action that needs taking, sometimes people need to vent.

Not to mention, as someone who actually enjoys getting involved in 101-style educational discussions... being ON all the time, being the understanding, patient, explaining person is fucking exhausting.  Emotionally and mentally.  Even at it's very best it tires me, and at the worst it is also incredibly frustrating.  Anger, frustration and passionate righteousness are all valid reactions to living in a world that is, to some extent, hostile to your existence and there needs to be an allowance for people to work through that with others who are on the same page as them.

I love doing 101 stuff.  But I could never be Clarisse Thorne.  Sooner or later, one of the key lessons allies need to learn is that social justice conversations are not about them, and do not centre them or prioritise their needs and feelings, because centring their needs and feelings derails progress and because that is what the rest of society is for.  It's the lesson I had to learn when engaging in spaces for disabled people and people of colour.  And what that feels like - not being catered to - can be incredibly uncomfortable and even painful - even speaking as someone who already knows what that feels like in the areas where I lack privilege - but that discomfort is a feature, not a bug.

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Post by The Wisp on Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:05 pm

I just want to say that reasons for the "male tears" meme, and the emotions behind it, etc. are totally legitimate. When ladies on the main DNL site have used the meme against a troll, I wasn't really that offensive, because I know you all well enough to know that you don't mean it "that way".

However, the connotation of words do matter just as much as their denotation, and when you're making "male tears" coffee mugs and t-shirts, all an outsider can see is the negative connotation.

eselle28 wrote:Something occurred to me: I see men mentioning that they don't feel they're allowed to be sad. I think it's worth considering that the gender policing twin of that is that women aren't allowed to be angry. I would say that at this point, men are given more rein to be sad than women are to be angry - even when women are talking about being oppressed and discriminated against and harassed, they're expected to be soft and sweet and accommodating. I think this ends up being quite restrictive, both for the women who are not soft and sweet and accommodating by nature and for ones who are and who have to pick up all the burdens of making their points when those women are excluded.

Without going into "who has it worse", I think I should clarify that men are given room to be sad, but we're given very little room to express it and process it. For example, I know that I find it very difficult to cry, even if I'm alone and I really want to, because of socialization. I can't even remember the last time I cried in the presence of another person, not even my mother or a therapist. A lot of men experience the same difficulty.
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Post by reboot on Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:05 pm

Not to completely derail, but find that our culture makes it hard for anyone to cry unless you have a really good reason. Last week I desperately wanted to start crying and just could not do it because I was raised in a, "Suck it up! Crying is for those with real problems [followed by a story from mom's youth or my dad telling a mining disaster story. In both story sets, people suffer horrible tragedy and no one cried]. So instead of crying you just get the grief porcupine stuck behind your ribs.

Long story endless, it is not as easy as popular media would have you think for women to express sadness either. Easier than for men, but not easy.
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Post by Barretts_Salt on Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:48 pm

Especially liked for "grief porcupine".

Thanks!
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Post by Suika on Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:56 pm

Lack of participation in a movement does not necessarily mean lack of knowledge about a movement.
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Post by reboot on Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:01 pm

Suika wrote:Lack of participation in a movement does not necessarily mean lack of knowledge about a movement.

If you are talking working class and lower class whites in the US it is more outright opposition to the movement than lack of participation. I will not get into the rhetoric, but it boils down to social justice being the problem, not the solution.
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Post by Suika on Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:15 pm

reboot wrote:
Suika wrote:Lack of participation in a movement does not necessarily mean lack of knowledge about a movement.

If you are talking working class and lower class whites in the US it is more outright opposition to the movement than lack of participation. I will not get into the rhetoric, but it boils down to social justice being the problem, not the solution.

Not only that, but it also stretches to religions, ideologies and cultures. The problem that I've seen when people participate in discussions regarding things that they aren't "a part of", as to speak, has almost always been a general lack of information and a whole lot of assumptions. If you know the history of feminism and the current state of it, then it's not strange to have an opinion about it. If you have studied the implementation of sharia laws in Muslim countries, and what the supposed ideal is, then you can criticize the people who are responsible for them. When you listen to the experiences of LGBT people and read stories and anecdotes thereof, in addition to the attempt of trying to see how our society relates to them, then it's not impossible for a person to try to come up with something to help.
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Post by reboot on Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:26 pm

Ummm.....as an outsider who has been dumped into the culture of others to "fix their problems all I can say is if you are not Muslim, not LGBTQ, etc. and talking to that group then STFU about your thoughts on a culture you are not a part of and can not fully grasp the nuances.

Talking to another outsider is different since you are both " foreigners " and comparing "travel notes"
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