Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric

Page 3 of 6 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Go down

Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric - Page 3 Empty Re: Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric

Post by Conreezy on Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:29 pm

"Male tears" just reinforces a significant factor of male oppression: the repression of emotions.

I don't get this. It's not a blanket admonishment of a man's tears. It's sarcastically making fun of men who cry because equality inconveniences them. Like when a sexually harassing coworker gets all in a huff because he was called out on his bad behavior--no one cares about that guy's annoyance/anger/whatever.





_________________
Surrender, Belisarius!
Conreezy
Conreezy

Posts : 269
Reputation : 97
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric - Page 3 Empty Re: Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric

Post by fakely mctest on Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:02 pm

Conreezy wrote:I don't get this.  It's not a blanket admonishment of a man's tears. It's sarcastically making fun of men who cry because equality inconveniences them.  Like when a sexually harassing coworker gets all in a huff because he was called out on his bad behavior--no one cares about that guy's annoyance/anger/whatever.

Yes, exactly this. "Male tears" isn't an admonishment against men crying ever. It's a way of dealing with the influx of devil's advocates and "yes, but..." arguments that crop up literally every single time a female experience is mentioned in a public space.

_________________
Please let it be an empty shoebox with a note saying “LOL Just kidding, I love cats, sorry I worried anyone. xoxox E. Schrödinger”
fakely mctest
fakely mctest
General Oversight Moderator

Posts : 298
Reputation : 74
Join date : 2014-09-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric - Page 3 Empty Re: Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric

Post by reboot on Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:12 pm

fakely mctest wrote:
Conreezy wrote:I don't get this.  It's not a blanket admonishment of a man's tears. It's sarcastically making fun of men who cry because equality inconveniences them.  Like when a sexually harassing coworker gets all in a huff because he was called out on his bad behavior--no one cares about that guy's annoyance/anger/whatever.

Yes, exactly this.  "Male tears" isn't an admonishment against men crying ever.  It's a way of dealing with the influx of devil's advocates and "yes, but..." arguments that crop up literally every single time a female experience is mentioned in a public space.

Cosign this. It is more the feeling of being asked to comfort someone because the way things are structured they benefit at your cost and they do not like hearing about it or their benefit and your cost is being reduced.

It is akin to white people being sad because they now have to compete on somewhat more equal footing for jobs and school placement with not white people. Or that jobs ask for people who are bilingual English-Spanish and monolingual, mostly white people claim discrimination (very common in my neck of the woods).
reboot
reboot
Moderator of "Other Relationships" and "Gender, Identity and Society"

Posts : 2514
Reputation : 1005
Join date : 2014-09-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric - Page 3 Empty Re: Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric

Post by Lemminkainen on Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:32 pm

@conreezy and fakely:

I suspect that Wisp and most of the other people who have expressed some degree of discomfort or dislike for the expression actually understand this point pretty well. I don't think that everybody here who dislikes "Male Tears" is objecting to women expressing irritation with misogynist bullshit.* My own objection (which I imagine that some others might share) is that the language that we use carries meaning other than its speaker's intent, and the meanings of initially relatively benign phrases can change when they become terms of abuse. You can be perfectly aware of a person's intent and approve of it and still find the way that they expressed their sentiments objectionable. I think that you both probably have reasonable arguments to offer that "male tears" doesn't have problematic content outside of its intended message and that it hasn't become a term of abuse. I feel like I (and probably some of the other people expressing concern here) would understand your position better, and possibly change my mind about this if I heard them. I would be really grateful if you would share these-- I know that my understanding of ethics and social justice stuff isn't perfect, and I would appreciate knowing more things which would help me do them better.

*In fact, a bunch of the people who were uncomfortable using the term, including me, explicitly stated that they think that the frustration is valid and expressing it is acceptable.

Lemminkainen

Posts : 143
Reputation : 58
Join date : 2014-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric - Page 3 Empty Re: Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric

Post by Guest on Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:44 pm

@Conreezy and fakely: Er, the fact that you have to go out of your way to explain to 'those who don't get it', "Hey, we really don't mean all men" is proof that the meme's somewhat ineffectual, no?

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric - Page 3 Empty Re: Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric

Post by celette482 on Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:45 pm

Lemminkainen, you're starting the sort of thing that leads to "male tears" jokes by insisting that the real problem here is that the women explaining themselves just aren't explaining themselves *well.*

But, I just heard that my maid of honor (aka my best friend) was roofied at a bar over the weekend and I'm pretty much about to knee the first man I look at and that happens to be my husband, so I'll probably just bow out of this thread for a while.
celette482
celette482

Posts : 168
Reputation : 138
Join date : 2014-10-22

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric - Page 3 Empty Re: Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric

Post by eselle28 on Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:49 pm

HermitTheToad wrote:@Conreezy and fakely: Er, the fact that you have to go out of your way to explain to 'those who don't get it', "Hey, we really don't mean all men" is proof that the meme's somewhat ineffectual, no?

It sort of depends on what you define as effectual. I'm not a fan of this one, but I also think the people who use it would say that you're not its audience. They're speaking to each other about how they're frustrated rather than to you. They're also doing so in a way that's public enough to affect you, which is relevant too. But I think if you want to try to understand the other side of this meme the way you want women to understand your unhappiness with it, it would be helpful to approach it as something that's not really meant for you as an audience in either a positive or negative way.
eselle28
eselle28
General Oversight Moderator

Posts : 1994
Reputation : 999
Join date : 2014-09-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric - Page 3 Empty Re: Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric

Post by eselle28 on Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:49 pm

celette482 wrote:
But, I just heard that my maid of honor (aka my best friend) was roofied at a bar over the weekend and I'm pretty much about to knee the first man I look at and that happens to be my husband, so I'll probably just bow out of this thread for a while.

I am so sorry.
eselle28
eselle28
General Oversight Moderator

Posts : 1994
Reputation : 999
Join date : 2014-09-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric - Page 3 Empty Re: Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric

Post by Lemminkainen on Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:33 pm

celette482 wrote:Lemminkainen, you're starting the sort of thing that leads to "male tears" jokes by insisting that the real problem here is that the women explaining themselves just aren't explaining themselves *well.*

But, I just heard that my maid of honor (aka my best friend) was roofied at a bar over the weekend and I'm pretty much about to knee the first man I look at and that happens to be my husband, so I'll probably just bow out of this thread for a while.

That's horrible-- I'm so sorry that happened to your friend.  I sincerely want to bring the end of the patriarchal social structures that allowed that to happen.

I think that I might have communicated badly again and caused you more pain-- for that, I apologize.  I'll try to restate my position again: I think that fakely, conreezy, and you have communicated the frustrations that lead people to use "Male Tears" very well, and also very effectively explained what you mean when you use it. I'm familiar with this line of argument from other feminist spaces, and you all have articulated it very effectively here.  The critique that I've been trying to make for a while is that I think that "Male Tears" doesn't just mean the things that you intend it to mean and has audiences which you might not have intended it to have. So, articulating what you mean to say when you express it and who you're trying to talk to when you express it is educational, but it doesn't really address the substance of the critique I've been trying (albeit unsuccessfully, it seems) to offer.

Of course, I'm also concerned that this critique might still be totally wrong, and that you guys-- who I respect -- might know some stuff which would enlighten me if I knew it too. So, I asked for elaboration and correction.  I've already shown that I'm acting in good faith in this thread by formulating my initial post as a question rather than an assertion and also by changing my mind about some things in response to eselle's arguments-- I honestly came here to learn, not to lecture or troll.  My posting history on this forum and the previous should corroborate that-- I try to be truth-seeking and compassionate (even if I don't always succeed). I totally understand if you don't have the energy to respond, but please understand that I'm asking in good faith.

Lemminkainen

Posts : 143
Reputation : 58
Join date : 2014-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric - Page 3 Empty Re: Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric

Post by The Wisp on Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:46 pm

eselle28 wrote:
HermitTheToad wrote:@Conreezy and fakely: Er, the fact that you have to go out of your way to explain to 'those who don't get it', "Hey, we really don't mean all men" is proof that the meme's somewhat ineffectual, no?

It sort of depends on what you define as effectual. I'm not a fan of this one, but I also think the people who use it would say that you're not its audience. They're speaking to each other about how they're frustrated rather than to you. They're also doing so in a way that's public enough to affect you, which is relevant too. But I think if you want to try to understand the other side of this meme the way you want women to understand your unhappiness with it, it would be helpful to approach it as something that's not really meant for you as an audience in either a positive or negative way.

Aren't social justice-types fond of saying "intent doesn't matter"?
The Wisp
The Wisp

Posts : 896
Reputation : 198
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric - Page 3 Empty Re: Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric

Post by Enail on Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:56 pm

It's not something that I really agree with (though I have some amount of sympathy for the stance) but I think the idea is that the effect on men is not important - and that not thinking about the effect on men is something that one so rarely gets to do that it in itself feels like a form of liberation from a patriarchal structure that foregrounds men so continually.  The intent is not to hurt men, but to not have to think about whether men will be hurt for once.
Enail
Enail
Admin

Posts : 4002
Reputation : 2222
Join date : 2014-09-22

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric - Page 3 Empty Re: Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric

Post by The Wisp on Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:00 am

Sure, but I feel like it's rather crappy to decide to "ignore men" just so happens to be when men are telling them that they're reinforcing shitty patriarchal gender norms, even if it is unintentionally.
The Wisp
The Wisp

Posts : 896
Reputation : 198
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric - Page 3 Empty Re: Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric

Post by celette482 on Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:05 am

It also feels crappy that the one thing that women are carving out as "not about men's feelings" is a thing that men are having feelings about and expecting women to change.

EDIT: But I'm with Enail. I think it does more harm than good. It does more harm than good not because of men's feelings, but because it turns the conversation into this meta discussion about men's feelings and is therefore counterproductive.
celette482
celette482

Posts : 168
Reputation : 138
Join date : 2014-10-22

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric - Page 3 Empty Re: Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric

Post by fakely mctest on Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:26 am

HermitTheToad wrote:@Conreezy and fakely: Er, the fact that you have to go out of your way to explain to 'those who don't get it', "Hey, we really don't mean all men" is proof that the meme's somewhat ineffectual, no?

You're assuming that it has an intended effect apart from being a form of hyperbolic gallows humor. Not everything that goes on in feminist circles is intended to be productive. Sometimes it's a way to blow off steam because everything seems pretty terrible and, again, public discussions of female experience are frustratingly repetitive.

As with all humor, you either like it or you don't and you can ask people to not use that type of rhetoric around you or seek out spaces where it isn't used, but you can't expect that people will just not use it full stop. And, again, I'd liken it to jokes that people make about white people as a group or about heterosexuals as a group. Humor is a pretty standard coping mechanism when it comes to tough stuff and I'm not going to begrudge anyone that because that sort of humor (unlike misogynist/racist/homophobic/etc. stuff) does not uphold or reinforce existing power structures. If there were any danger of the sorts of jokes discussed here being used in any way to flip the script and create new imbalances of power that would be one thing, but there's just not.

_________________
Please let it be an empty shoebox with a note saying “LOL Just kidding, I love cats, sorry I worried anyone. xoxox E. Schrödinger”
fakely mctest
fakely mctest
General Oversight Moderator

Posts : 298
Reputation : 74
Join date : 2014-09-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric - Page 3 Empty Re: Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric

Post by eselle28 on Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:38 am

The Wisp wrote:
eselle28 wrote:
HermitTheToad wrote:@Conreezy and fakely: Er, the fact that you have to go out of your way to explain to 'those who don't get it', "Hey, we really don't mean all men" is proof that the meme's somewhat ineffectual, no?

It sort of depends on what you define as effectual. I'm not a fan of this one, but I also think the people who use it would say that you're not its audience. They're speaking to each other about how they're frustrated rather than to you. They're also doing so in a way that's public enough to affect you, which is relevant too. But I think if you want to try to understand the other side of this meme the way you want women to understand your unhappiness with it, it would be helpful to approach it as something that's not really meant for you as an audience in either a positive or negative way.

Aren't social justice-types fond of saying "intent doesn't matter"?

When it comes to how other people feel about how you act? If you haven't infringed on their rights, intent doesn't matter.

Not seeing how this comes into play here. Feminists haven't infringed on your rights. Their intent doesn't really matter. They're explaining it to you in an attempt to be conciliatory, but they shouldn't have to. If you want to go off elsewhere and process that and rant about it and whatnot? Okay, cool. But that's not my problem. That's a thing about your feelings about my feelings. When you try to get me involved in it, that's when it goes bad.
eselle28
eselle28
General Oversight Moderator

Posts : 1994
Reputation : 999
Join date : 2014-09-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric - Page 3 Empty Re: Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric

Post by nearly_takuan on Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:50 am

Must be nice, having a space where you can be sure other people care about your feelings and you don't have to care about another group's.

I'll leave you to it, then.
nearly_takuan
nearly_takuan

Posts : 1069
Reputation : 456
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric - Page 3 Empty Re: Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric

Post by Guest on Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:57 am

I dunno, I feel like it's no better than if I were to use this:
Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric - Page 3 J3j

to complain about a kind of feminist who is just as sexist as the people they're against. I would understandably get flak for it because:

a) The direction of the insult is unfocused. It's 'Feminism' that's being made fun of. Not 'Radical feminists' or people who claim that Nicky Minaj's Anaconda, which is 'empowering' for women. Just plain Feminism, i.e. it's a negative generalization.
b) Casual sexism. I'd be feeding the narrative that women are weak by including the picture of the woman in distress.

So, ultimately it would matter less that I wasn't targetting all feminists, because the meme implies otherwise.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric - Page 3 Empty Re: Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric

Post by eselle28 on Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:58 am

nearly_takuan wrote:Must be nice, having a space where you can be sure other people care about your feelings and you don't have to care about another group's.

I'll leave you to it, then.

So do asexual spaces cater to the feelings of sexual people all the time? Should they? If most of their spaces become forums for sexual people to argue with them about how they're wrong, is that a good, inclusive thing?
eselle28
eselle28
General Oversight Moderator

Posts : 1994
Reputation : 999
Join date : 2014-09-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric - Page 3 Empty Re: Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric

Post by Lemminkainen on Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:26 am

fakely mctest wrote:

You're assuming that it has an intended effect apart from being a form of hyperbolic gallows humor.  Not everything that goes on in feminist circles is intended to be productive.  Sometimes it's a way to blow off steam because everything seems pretty terrible and, again, public discussions of female experience are frustratingly repetitive.

As with all humor, you either like it or you don't and you can ask people to not use that type of rhetoric around you or seek out spaces where it isn't used, but you can't expect that people will just not use it full stop.  And, again, I'd liken it to jokes that people make about white people as a group or about heterosexuals as a group.  Humor is a pretty standard coping mechanism when it comes to tough stuff and I'm not going to begrudge anyone that because that sort of humor (unlike misogynist/racist/homophobic/etc. stuff) does not uphold or reinforce existing power structures.  If there were any danger of the sorts of jokes discussed here being used in any way to flip the script and create new imbalances of power that would be one thing, but there's just not.

This wasn't addressed to me, but I found it helpful for understanding your thinking-- thank you.

Re "flipping the script"-- I agree that there's no danger of this happening on a broader social level, but I think it certainly can happen in smaller communities, which have their own power dynamics-- a space can become very hostile to a group even if society at large isn't. I don't think that every space or community needs to be friendly to everybody, and I think I can see the value of having discourse like that in spaces which aren't designed to be open to everyone now. And thanks for making the "it's okay to ask people not to use that kind of rhetoric around you" disclaimer-- my workplace and friendgroups are full of people who are social justicey in various ways (since I'm an academic), and I'm glad that asking people there to be considerate of my feelings/respect my boundaries doesn't constitute some sort of oppression, so long as I'm willing to extend the same courtesies to them.

At the same time, would it be reasonable to ask that a feminist space like this one which is specifically designed to be somewhere that people of both genders can talk about sex and gender issues with a framework that doesn't naturalize the patriarchy be safe and non-hostile to people of both genders? I feel like there might be some utility in designating some "ingroup-and-ally-friendly" spaces as well as simply "ingroup-friendly" ones.


Lemminkainen

Posts : 143
Reputation : 58
Join date : 2014-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric - Page 3 Empty Re: Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric

Post by nonA on Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:32 am

Question to Wisp, Lem, etc. How often do you hear similar phrases said outside of specifically feminist spaces?

Because if someone tells you that they don't want you in their clubhouse, the easiest thing to do is find somewhere else to hang out.

nonA

Posts : 72
Reputation : 28
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric - Page 3 Empty Re: Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric

Post by Lemminkainen on Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:50 am

nonA wrote:Question to Wisp, Lem, etc.  How often do you hear similar phrases said outside of specifically feminist spaces?

Because if someone tells you that they don't want you in their clubhouse, the easiest thing to do is find somewhere else to hang out.

I'm an academic, so I hear it at work and from my friends (who are mostly also my co-workers) often enough to make me feel uncomfortable.

EDIT: I also care about a bunch of social justice issues, and I find getting people's perspectives about them so that I can act more ethically valuable. I would like to be able to do that in a way that feels compatible with my psychological health.

Lemminkainen

Posts : 143
Reputation : 58
Join date : 2014-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric - Page 3 Empty Re: Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric

Post by Guest on Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:01 am

Enail wrote:It's not something that I really agree with (though I have some amount of sympathy for the stance) but I think the idea is that the effect on men is not important - and that not thinking about the effect on men is something that one so rarely gets to do that it in itself feels like a form of liberation from a patriarchal structure that foregrounds men so continually.  The intent is not to hurt men, but to not have to think about whether men will be hurt for once.

Had to sit with this comment for a while to let the message sink in. For what it's worth, I think I can empathize with feelings of burnout and with having to constantly consider the feelings of a group who seem to have 'more' than you. So, I kinda get wanting to just vent for it's own sake and not wanting to tie oneself in knots over caring too much.

I'm sorry if the lack of empathy on my end caused hurt feelings.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric - Page 3 Empty Re: Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric

Post by Werel on Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:38 am

eselle28 wrote:
nearly_takuan wrote:
Must be nice, having a space where you can be sure other people care about your feelings and you don't have to care about another group's.

I'll leave you to it, then.
So do asexual spaces cater to the feelings of sexual people all the time? Should they? If most of their spaces become forums for sexual people to argue with them about how they're wrong, is that a good, inclusive thing?

Hm, I'm interested in the distinction between "care about" and "cater to"-- keeping it specific to this space only, I certainly don't feel I have to cater to any particular group's preferences or feelings when I post here (that is, I don't feel obligated to modify or censor what I say for fear of offending or upsetting this group or that). However, I do care about the feelings of posters here and how they may be affected by my words. Is it useful to draw a line between "catering to" a group--feeling obligated to modify one's behavior such that it's to group members' taste--and "caring about" a members of a group's feelings --having empathy for, and a voluntary desire not to unnecessarily cause, emotional distress? I feel like the distinction between free choice and obligation has a lot to do with how burdensome it is to interact with a given group.
Werel
Werel
Moderator of "Meeting People and Dating Advice"

Posts : 1952
Reputation : 1160
Join date : 2014-09-25

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric - Page 3 Empty Re: Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric

Post by Robjection on Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:12 am

eselle28 wrote:
nearly_takuan wrote:Must be nice, having a space where you can be sure other people care about your feelings and you don't have to care about another group's.

I'll leave you to it, then.

So do asexual spaces cater to the feelings of sexual people all the time? Should they? If most of their spaces become forums for sexual people to argue with them about how they're wrong, is that  a good, inclusive thing?
I don't know about asexual spaces in general, but if I remember correctly, AVEN has rules against both treating sexual people as inferior and telling someone they're wrong about their orientation.
Robjection
Robjection

Posts : 384
Reputation : 100
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric - Page 3 Empty Re: Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric

Post by Mel on Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:31 am

I've just been reading along with this discussion as I haven't had much to add, but I am curious about something now.

I totally get what people are saying about "male tears" having problematic connotations specifically when it comes to gender relations (compared to, say, "white woman's tears," which is a race relations thing) because there's a history of men being shamed for expressing weakness/certain emotions, which is indeed part of the whole system we're trying to correct (whereas there is no parallel history of, say, white folks being shamed for getting emotional).

So what I'm wondering is, is there a phrase women could use instead, that would allow them to express the frustration other posters have explained in some detail, without having to get into a long explanation but just to blow off steam, that wouldn't have those connotations? Because... the frustration is specifically about men expressing hurt/discomfort at women (about losing privilege/women getting more rights/that sort of thing)... so any expression of frustration about that is necessarily going to have something to do with men's feelings, no? How can that be reconciled? Is there any way people can express frustration with a specific type of feelings coming from men without it sounding like weakness-shaming, and if not, what options are there for the women who are frustrated?

I'm asking honestly, not rhetorically.
Mel
Mel
Roving Moderator

Posts : 317
Reputation : 182
Join date : 2014-09-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric - Page 3 Empty Re: Discomfort with "Male Tears" and "Die, Cishet Scum!" Rhetoric

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 3 of 6 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum