Bitterness

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Bitterness

Post by Guest on Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:09 am

Pretty straightforward. I've been finding myself to be really bitter about basically everything for the reasons that everyone already knows.

Since it has been almost two years since starting to read the Doc's site and still being a virgin (having to go so far as to pretend that I'm sexually active to get people off my back), I find myself getting increasingly angry that dating is apparently simple for everyone else. Other people receive indicators of interest, I almost never do.

I don't really know how to accept the fact that I will never have a healthy sex life (or at least the average amount of sex). I certainly place too much value into it.

I mean, this is going to be the rest of my life. You can call me wrong all you want (and you will, being optimistic folk), but I cannot conceivably imagine it. It doesn't compute. It doesn't seem possible. The concept of me being a happy and successful human being is basically statistically impossible and I can't figure out how to accept it so it doesn't stress me out so damn much.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Bitterness

Post by The Wisp on Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:21 am

I can totally relate to your feeling. I've felt that way about socializing in general, and dating/sex specifically at various points in my life. Especially lately. You just have to push on and resist the feeling...
avatar
The Wisp

Posts : 896
Reputation : 198
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Bitterness

Post by nearly_takuan on Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:28 am

Quite a lot of people have less than the average amount of sex. That's why it's the average. Razz

But I get what you mean.

At risk of boasting, I think part of it is that smart/talented people get kind of used to having a lot of skills come naturally and easily. When we do work for something, we see results. We aren't used to our investments flailing and sinking.

So then there's this other thing that appears to be easy and natural for so much of the rest of the world, and obviously is not for us, and we're completely out of our element. So much of the rest of the world is connected to everything else; I'm pretty sure I haven't learned anything new since elementary. So I haven't had much practice with new, and now there is this new thing that I want to learn but it's new so I don't know how. It's clearly not just an extension of some other set of skills. Or if it is then the configuration is mystifying.

Anyway. I'm not going to argue with you. We're sinking on the same ship, after all.
avatar
nearly_takuan

Posts : 1057
Reputation : 431
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Bitterness

Post by Guest on Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:04 am

Just want to cosign with you guys on the general feeling that "things probably won't get much better".

Although Glides, you may be one of the lucky ones who mellows out and ends up in a place where life just works for you (I'm sorry if saying this makes you feel worse).

But like Wisp says, you don't really have a choice but to keep pushing on, because the alternative is really, really bad.

@nearly_takuan: "We're sinking on the same ship, after all."

So, since I can't swim and I'm most likely to die first, do you mind not using my body as a float? I'm fine with being bait for sharks though, so that's cool (Just make sure I'm properly dead first. Thanks  Shiny/thrilled ).

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Bitterness

Post by nearly_takuan on Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:38 am

Is the alternative really bad though? Why is the alternative bad? I mean I haven't found much evidence to the contrary but nobody's yet proven NP-Complete problems can't be solved in deterministic polynomial time either.

From my earlier thread, it sounded like it's at least possible to get by without that sort of connection. I'm interested in exploring that option.
avatar
nearly_takuan

Posts : 1057
Reputation : 431
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Bitterness

Post by Enail on Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:50 am

Sorry y'all are feeling so hopeless. I know I come off as a super optimist here, so I realize this won't have much weight (though I'm really not such an optimist as you all seem to think. Most people I know IRL way I'm a pessimist!), but I just want to say that I think that all four of you who have posted here have shown yourselves to be interesting, intelligent and courageous people, each in different ways, and I genuinely and specifically think you are people well worth liking and capable of finding your way through to a point where you'd consider yourselves happy and successful. I know it's not easy, and I know it might take patience, persistence and courage, and maybe some luck and some help along the way. But I think it can happen.

Hope the bitterness and despair ease soon.
avatar
Enail
Admin

Posts : 3392
Reputation : 1672
Join date : 2014-09-22

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Bitterness

Post by Guest on Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:00 pm

nearly_takuan wrote:
At risk of boasting, I think part of it is that smart/talented people get kind of used to having a lot of skills come naturally and easily. When we do work for something, we see results. We aren't used to our investments flailing and sinking.


Anyway. I'm not going to argue with you. We're sinking on the same ship, after all.

Actually, sex is a pretty minor part of what I'm referring to.

What I'm referring to is having none of the skill sets required to become a doctor or a lawyer or a politician or someone with some importance and financial stability. I'm neither smart nor talented, it took me years to realize that since all high school kids think they're geniuses initially. My parents spent basically half their lives trying to convince themselves that I was meant to be important and special, and it's completely broken them that their son turned out to be a waste of a human being.

Financially, socially, mentally, every aspect of my life has one defining trait: failure. I'm literally in-deficient in all areas of my life. And then people have the audacity to tell me that my life is worth living. About the only good thing I can think of is that I'm not starving yet. I can afford rent, that's as far as it goes.

Enail wrote:Sorry y'all are feeling so hopeless. I know I come off as a super optimist here, so I realize this won't have much weight (though I'm really not such an optimist as you all seem to think. Most people I know IRL way I'm a pessimist!), but I just want to say that I think that all four of you who have posted here have shown yourselves to be interesting, intelligent and courageous people, each in different ways, and I genuinely and specifically think you are people well worth liking and capable of finding your way through to a point where you'd consider yourselves happy and successful. I know it's not easy, and I know it might take patience, persistence and courage, and maybe some luck and some help along the way. But I think it can happen.

Hope the bitterness and despair ease soon.

You could just as easily say the same about literally anyone though, everyone starts off with a lot of potential, everyone peaks at different times. Others, like me, never peak at all, they just get slightly off the ground and peter out. I was delusional enough to think I might have a career and a life worth living, and then I was fired and I've never recovered, not a single job offer despite the mountains of applications I've sent out (I'm up to 58, I believe?). I'm not even getting job offers from minimum wage jobs, I survive because I occasionally get video gigs that pay some, and student loans cover the rest. Once I'm out of school, I will basically become homeless and have thousands of dollars of debt on top of that. I'm literally walking towards my own execution, and there's really nothing else I can do.

And then people say, "why are you bitter?" As if being able to breathe and eat and sleep and shit is perfectly enough, just enough to make it all worth it.

Life is not precious, life is not a gift, unless there's something in it to make it worth it. I don't have any of that, I don't know how to find it.

"But life is worth it! He doesn't know any better!"

Why?

"Because that's what my mommy told me when I was real young."

Thought so.

"Why is he so bitter?"

Because I have no idea what to do. I don't know what to do. I'm helpless and I don't know what to do. I do what everyone tells me to do and nothing happens.

"Why does he constantly fantasize about suicide? That's an evil bad thing to do! No one could ever be so sad that suicide actually becomes a rational option! Why is he always thinking about it?"

Because the idea of me dying is literally the only thing keeping me from going through it. I actually fantasize about all the different ways I can go, and that's just entertaining enough that I can hold on for another five minutes. The thought of not feeling is actually the happiest thought I can come up with. I don't want to die, I just want the pain to stop.

"But antidepressants and therapists and voodoo and faith healing and---"

Those cost money. I don't have money. You keep on pretending as if this is Canada, where people can deliberately get cancer and get it treated for fun if they were so inclined. You also keep pretending that this is a country in which people with mental disorders are respected and admired.

I haven't even talked about sex once this time. OK, I just did, but you get what I mean.

I'm not even saying that anyone else reading this has it better than me and that I have it the worst and yadda yadda yadda. I'm basically saying that we're all in our little ball of suffering and that doesn't really make it any better to learn that I'm not the only one who's so fucking confused and distraught about literally everything. I don't have drink or drugs or sex to drown my sorrows with. So I have to suffer with it every minute of every day.

Still a lot of people like that, too. I'm just saying that individually, right now, I am in more pain than I've ever felt my entire life, and I didn't know that the level of pain I'm feeling is possible. The only happy thing now in my life is the idea of no longer having to exist, pure nothingness, which is what drink and drugs and sex can give you temporarily. That's how shitty life is: they all exist so you can blank out for a bit, because if there's a God, he really fucked things up here. Nobody drinks or smokes or fucks for pleasure, they do all that for the blankness.

Hell, I only want to have sex so I can blank out like everyone else gets to. I want to stop feeling, more than anything else.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Bitterness

Post by Enail on Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:31 pm

Don't be patronizing, Glides. When I say you specifically, I mean you specifically, as in I wouldn't say the same about literally anyone. I might generally act nice here, but I'm not actually all that nice a person. I don't think everyone is intelligent or courageous, and while I largely believe that everyone is probably interesting to someone, I most definitely don't think everyone is interesting.

Look, sometimes awesome people struggle. With unglamorous stuff like finding minimum wage jobs, with rent. With feeling like they've let down the people who expected more from them. It doesn't mean anything about what you're worth, or what you'll be able to achieve in the long run. Or at least, it doesn't if you keep going and keep working towards what you want, and if you learn to recognize the good stuff and not throw it away because it's not perfect. Because the good stuff comes in little pieces, a lot of the time; things that are small, and messy, and imperfect, things that seem like they don't mean enough and that don't feel like they prove anything about being successful or desirable or good enough. It's only in the long run that they work out to something that you can look around at and feel really good about, to happiness, if you hold onto them and help them grow.  

In regards to getting help, too, it might not come in likely packages; what turns out to really help might be the stuff that seems sappy or ridiculous, the counsellor that seems inexperienced and under-trained, the stuff that doesn't make much difference at first. Speaking more pragmatically, I've suggested a couple of ideas to look into that have reasons they wouldn't be your first choice; have you considered them?

When I tell you I think you can do things worth doing and of building a happy life, I'm not just saying that to be nice, and I'm not saying it because I think it's easy. Life is not easy. I think you are up to the task, because of what I know about you, and the fact that you're struggling right now doesn't change that. Things will not always be as they are now.
avatar
Enail
Admin

Posts : 3392
Reputation : 1672
Join date : 2014-09-22

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Bitterness

Post by nearly_takuan on Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:17 pm

Okay, so maybe I am going to argue with you.

Y'know, Glides, it really isn't the case that everyone thinks they're a genius in high school. And your assertion that you've failed at everything is actually pretty much what I was talking about. You've let slip that your classmates look like amateurs next to you; that you've done some of your projects by just winging it and seen success and praise anyway. Does that make you a special unique snowflake, the smartest most awesomest person ever? Well, no, but neither does that happen to just anybody.

You're a smart guy. I've interacted with a lot of smart and not-so-smart guys our age so by now I'm pretty sure I know which kind I'm talking to. You also seem to have some pretty incredible ambitions. You're getting by, but you want to make a mind-blowing cult-classic film masterpiece. You're a 20(?) year old virgin and you're worried that you won't end up experiencing a >=average amount of sex. I don't mean this to discourage you further or make it sound like you have unreasonable, impossible goals—I mean this to point out that you might be interpreting ordinary American college student life as "failure" and beating yourself up over things that were never entirely within your control in the first place.

Recently, I've heard several friends independently bring up the idea that they're approaching a "quarter life crisis", which I think actually helped me put a couple of things in perspective, even though I haven't really finished developing my own take yet. I don't know when or how or why, but it seems like a bunch of people in our generation have this... Maude complex, where we expect to biologically live to a hundred but assume the "fun" part of life will end when we're fifty. Or forty. Or thirty. And if we're not successful and happy and paired-off by then, we might as well end it right now. I mean what the fuck are we thinking? I'm still thinking it!
avatar
nearly_takuan

Posts : 1057
Reputation : 431
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Bitterness

Post by UristMcBunny on Fri Nov 07, 2014 7:43 pm

One thing I can definitely sympathise with is the feeling that your life is somehow almost over, or at least set in stone, when you're in your early 20s. I used to get panic attacks and was convinced I was failing at life when, at 25, I hadn't yet found myself in a financially secure position to start saving for eventual home ownership. When at 27 I lost my job and found myself at the lowest of low ebbs in my depression/self harm/anxiety state, I was sure I'd ruined my whole life. I wanted to be out of the town I was living in already! I was supposed to have a well-paying job by then! I was supposed to be accruing savings for the eco-home we wanted to build!

Instead I was an unemployed university drop-out who was failing to pay her full rent every month, living in squalor and seemed mentally and emotionally incapable of even brushing my teeth on a regular basis, let alone taking actual good care of myself. By your metrics, I was an unmitigated failure. And if I'd given up at that low, hard, scary point in my life I would've been.

I know from experience that it is NOT easy to fight your way out of a pit like that. Some days you'll have the energy to make progress on things, only to have several days where you're so down that ll your hard work gets undone again. You'll take two steps back out of every three you take forward. It's slow and hard work. And sometimes you might spend a few months just treading water. And that's okay. Because over time you can make positive changes. You can build new habits. You can get yourself and your life into a better position.

I think what might be really important for you right now, Glides, more than any specific goals or personal missions, is to re-frame how you look at yourself and your situation. You are incredibly, unfairly, hard on yourself. To take just one example: So you haven't managed to get work after 50+ applications? You're a 20 year old with limited work experience, who needs to balance study time with work time, and who is living in a student town. Employment is ALWAYS hard to come by in student towns because employers have a massive, inflated labour force to draw from. Although it could be that there are improvements you could make to your CV and letters and interview skills, at the end of the day your difficulty finding work is not entirely within your control. You're not a failure for having struggled at this, I promise you.

_________________
Some of you will know me as Bunny from the old forums.
avatar
UristMcBunny
Moderator of "Romantic and Sexual Relationships"

Posts : 371
Reputation : 116
Join date : 2014-09-24

View user profile http://uristmcdorf.tumblr.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Bitterness

Post by Guest on Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:30 am

Enail wrote:Don't be patronizing, Glides. When I say you specifically, I mean you specifically, as in I wouldn't say the same about literally anyone. I might generally act nice here, but I'm not actually all that nice a person. I don't think everyone is intelligent or courageous, and while I largely believe that everyone is probably interesting to someone, I most definitely don't think everyone is interesting.

Literally anyone's a too generalized example, I agree with you there. I'm also bad at accepting compliments. When I think interesting or courageous, I think the most interesting person and the most courageous person and compare those ideals with myself. Not to mention how empty compliments are a dime a dozen in this society.

nearly_takuan wrote:Okay, so maybe I am going to argue with you.

Y'know, Glides, it really isn't the case that everyone thinks they're a genius in high school. And your assertion that you've failed at everything is actually pretty much what I was talking about. You've let slip that your classmates look like amateurs next to you; that you've done some of your projects by just winging it and seen success and praise anyway. Does that make you a special unique snowflake, the smartest most awesomest person ever? Well, no, but neither does that happen to just anybody.

I said that one of them was worse at it than I was. Half of the program has dropped out, I'm only better by being the dumbass who stuck around.

You're a smart guy. I've interacted with a lot of smart and not-so-smart guys our age so by now I'm pretty sure I know which kind I'm talking to. You also seem to have some pretty incredible ambitions. You're getting by, but you want to make a mind-blowing cult-classic film masterpiece. You're a 20(?) year old virgin and you're worried that you won't end up experiencing a >=average amount of sex. I don't mean this to discourage you further or make it sound like you have unreasonable, impossible goals—I mean this to point out that you might be interpreting ordinary American college student life as "failure" and beating yourself up over things that were never entirely within your control in the first place.

Sam Raimi made Evil Dead at 22. Robert Rodriguez and Kevin Smith made their first films at 23. Steven Spielberg made his first at 24. Orson Welles made his first at 25. I don't have much time left in which to try and outdo them. That's not to say that I'm somehow better than all of those people, just that I want to see if I am and I'd rather try and fail than be the class dunce.

Being a nearly 20 year old virgin is not even close to being average, I'm almost three years past the average date of loss. The later I lose it, the less amount of sex I can have (you know, being older=less time for anything).

And the one thing the Doc continually gets wrong and continually has his head in the sand about is people not giving a shit about sexual experience. He's openly stated in many of his articles how people don't care if you're a virgin (they'll care more if you complain, of course). But everyone does, they're insulted all the time whenever someone insults a neckbeard. Virgins are second class citizens (not literally, but figuratively) in the sense that people finding out you're a virgin is an automatic buzzkill, an almost guaranteed ladybonerkiller. The forum refuses to believe this despite people like me repeatedly demonstrating how the opposite is in fact true. Virginity is a big deal. It's not that women don't want virgins, it's that people don't want virgins, and they can tell by how awful a virgin can be at sex ("it's not true! Virgins can be great!" Lied the people who lost their virginities in the average age range)

"Why is he so bitter about that?"

Because I have to lie to get into bed with anyone, pretending that I'm a physically attractive enough man. Or whatever.

I'm once again repeating that it's perfectly logical to hate my kind, since we're no good in bed and the majority of us tend to be neckbeards. I wouldn't be complaining if I wasn't lumped in with those living fuckups. I wouldn't even mind being a virgin so much if not for the negative connotations of being one, which are pretty recent.

You can all pretend that I'm wrong, despite having personally seen and experienced the truth for myself. But the forum is generally filled with "sexually liberated" people, and the rest of the world is the complete opposite. Not to mention how the people who hate us most are the people who claim to be the most sexually progressive. They just like beating the "we've had more sex than you HAHAHAHAHAHA we have more value!" dead horse.

No, I can't exactly find any way to be happy right now.

Recently, I've heard several friends independently bring up the idea that they're approaching a "quarter life crisis", which I think actually helped me put a couple of things in perspective, even though I haven't really finished developing my own take yet. I don't know when or how or why, but it seems like a bunch of people in our generation have this... Maude complex, where we expect to biologically live to a hundred but assume the "fun" part of life will end when we're fifty. Or forty. Or thirty. And if we're not successful and happy and paired-off by then, we might as well end it right now. I mean what the fuck are we thinking? I'm still thinking it!

Go out in a flash of glory, right? I don't want to be old anyway, it sounds like absolute torture. My grandfather is basically on his deathbed at this point, I don't want to have to deal with that. So irregardless, I'm probably going to kill myself anyway even if I don't do so because of depression. How many old people are physically able to have any fun? I don't want the aches and the pains and the helplessness. I was already a baby once. The second I feel anything like that, I'm out. No fucking way I'm going to tolerate that aging crap for decades on end, unless that magical anti-aging crap is invented in my lifetime.

Besides, past a certain point, sex just gets really fucking disgusting. I don't want my first time to be at a point in which I'm getting liver spots or male pattern baldness. I would rather die. And not a single person could blame me if I did then. They can pretend it's OK right now, since I still have hair and no wrinkles and shit like that (no offense to those of you not like that, I'm kind of an asshole).

So let's say 40-something to be nice. I dunno. Either I'll find a way to die heroically (stop a bank robbery or something), or I'm just gonna off myself. I'm not getting married and I'm not having kids (I hate divorce and children even more), so that's less to deal with.

You can call me irrational all you want, but that's the only way my involuntary celibacy could get any worse. Best possible scenario is to make a million dollars tomorrow somehow and spend it all on hookers or something. I've actually reached the point where I'd buy a hooker if I could afford one. I'm getting increasingly desperate and that's not very healthy. And it would be awful soulless sex, but people who look like me and act like me simply don't have the whole "intimacy" or "connection" thing with people. We have to pay people to pretend to like us. And hookers make for fantastic actors if they can successfully pretend that I'm a sexually desirable human being.

It's not the looks or the hygiene or anything else. I don't have the sex pheromone. I'm like that blue whale that can't make a mating call, and thus no one gives a shit about it. People like me are like that whale. We ain't finding nobody, and we'll spend a few more short years complaining helplessly to forums and therapists about it till we off ourselves. Suicide is the only real option for me anyway.

"That's irrational."

What's more irrational, suddenly dying or eternally suffering.

"It gets better."

No, you just don't want to feel guilty when it happens. Jesus isn't real, you're not getting brownie points.

Think of it like this: people like me and everyone else are like lobsters in a boiling pot. Everyone else are these magical lobsters who can withstand the boiling water that is life. And lobsters like me try to get out by getting the will to pull the trigger or strangle ourselves or what have you. But then these magical lobsters (all of you) who are strong enough try to drag me back in, because I look like you, I look like a strong magical lobster when I'm just an ordinary burned one.

Does that mean that the magical lobsters never suffer? Of course they all do, they all deal with the most horrible things in existence. But I'm the kind of lobster who was never given the strength or magic to survive for much longer. I'm sure many of you were given far worse lives than I've ever had, and the virginity and failing school and all that is nothing in comparison. But you guys are strong enough to take it. I'm not.

I mean, naturally you guys will try to respond happily, since I am not you and most people are nicer to each other than they are to themselves. It's one of the nicer parts of human nature to be nice even to the hopeless. Trust me, I don't want to be hopeless, I want to be like you, people with potential. I desperately want that. But I'm also rational enough to know that I'll never have it. I can have a six pack and a two foot long cock and nothing would change. Not like some switch is gonna turn off and suddenly people will want me.

I'm tired as shit. I'm slacking off on schoolwork. I basically spent the past day on Netflix and alternating between making myself food and crying my eyes out. I got a ton of shit to do. I'm probably gonna fail two-thirds of my classes.

Look, you people on the forum like me more because I'm better at expressing myself when I write. I'm not needed in my daily life. It would affect nothing if I was gone apart from my immediate family. People would be kinda bummed and then get over it. "Shit, had no idea that guy was so sad. What a shame." "What a fucking weirdo he was. Still looked happy, though." They're not assholes, they'd be sad. But they'd get over it because I'm not the person who makes an impact, or connects with people. I don't do that even when I try to. My family will be distraught and get over it. I'm gonna wait till my grandpa has been dead for several years. I hate writing those words because I don't want him to die. But he's probably going to die, and I'll wait till everyone recovers before making my move.

"Get therapy."

Stop with the fucking therapy, it doesn't work on me.

"But it worked for me!"

Yeah, you had a chance. Key difference.

"But you're not starving in Africa."

No I am not. It's not that my circumstances are worse, it's that my mental state is unbearable. Apart from the virginity and failing school and having no real friends, things are pretty A-OK. But I'm not starving, I'm not ungrateful for that.

"Virginity's not a big deal."

Really? Wanna trade places and see what it's like to have almost no one desire you? Some of you on the forum know this intimate kind of pain all too well, where your friends go home with the girls and you don't. Or the reverse. Sex.

"Failing school is nothing."

Fuck you, that's a dumb thing to say.

"Your parents love you!"

Of course they do. They also want a different child. They regret having this one. I can't blame them.

"What about the rest of your family?"

The one I barely talk to anymore? Trust me, it's all cool.

"What about your friends?"

I don't have real ones. Refer to earlier statements.

"But you could meet an amazing girl tomorrow!"

Of course I could! Statistically if like 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999 of all women I've met want nothing to do with me because of how boring/repulsive/unattractive I am (and again, can you blame them?), then clearly this one out of a million will find me desirable!

Let's put it like this, I'm more likely to die in an airplane crash.

I'm done with the rant. This isn't constructive.


Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Bitterness

Post by The Wisp on Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:45 am

EDIT: I was too harsh, I think. Glides, I hope you feel better and find something that will help you.


Last edited by The Wisp on Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:32 am; edited 1 time in total
avatar
The Wisp

Posts : 896
Reputation : 198
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Bitterness

Post by Lemminkainen on Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:26 am

This sounds like bad depression-times, Glides.  I'm sorry that you're suffering through this.

It sounds like therapy hasn't been working out well for you.  That sucks.  Have you considered medication?  SSRIs are very, very effective, and don't need you to believe in them to work.  (Here is a link to a place where a very smart and very skeptical person examined the entire body of literature about these antidepressants, and found that the best science we have showed them to be quite effective: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/07/ssris-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/ )

And if they should fail, there are rarely-used things like Imipramine, which is near-100% effective.  

It might also be helpful for you to look at the cold, hard facts of your life and note that some of the things that you say here are either misleading or just untrue.  

For example:

Your discussion of filmmakers-- You're cherry-picking here.  David Fincher made his first film when he was thirty, and it was the (fairly shitty) Alien 3.  Christopher Nolan was 30 when his first successful film, Memento, came out.  Edgar Wright likewise didn't make a successful feature film until he created Sean of the Dead at thirty.  Kurosawa didn't release a film until he was 32, and it almost didn't make it out because of wartime censorship in Japan.  Steve McQueen, who I think is the world's greatest living filmmaker, was a weirdo gallery artist until he was almost forty, and then went three-for-three to make some of the most harrowing and powerful films ever.  Zhang Yimou was 36 when he directed his first feature film.  Bong Joon-Ho didn't make a successful film until he came out with The Host at age 37.  Kathryn Bigelow didn't make anything but trashy action movies before she turned out The Hurt Locker at 57.  If it takes you ten or even twenty years to make a good film, you'll still be in excellent company.

"Nobody wants me or will ever want me." -- On the first forum, you posted several times about women who wanted to sleep with you, but who you didn't want to sleep with because the circumstances were problematic-- not the best situation, but hardly an indication that you're some kind of unfuckable troll.  You've also mentioned that you tend to believe that any woman who expresses interest in you is trying to trick you, and acknowledged that this was probably a depression-induced cognitive bias.  A lot of those indicators probably were actually genuine-- even though you recognized that they would normally be indicators of interest, you dismissed them.

"Losing my virginity at twenty means I will have less than an average amount of sex"-- If you and your partner have high sex drives, you can make up for lost time quickly-- most couples only have sex once or twice a week, but if you're both up for it, once or twice a day is pretty feasible.  Of course, you've mentioned in past threads that you actually have a very low sex drive-- which suggests to me that an above average lifetime amount of sex wouldn't make you happy.

Re "hookers": Street prostitutes' rates start at around the equivalent of $20 in the UK, where you live (If I'm remembering correctly?), so you probably could afford to hire one right now, or could afford to after doing a couple of odd jobs.  Do you actually want to hire somebody, or is it just the depression talking?

Wisp: I think that your tone is kind of harsh and inappropriate, and your conclusion is unfair.  As Glides has admitted to us in more lucid moments, he knows that there are problems with these arguments, and he mostly gives in to believing them because of his severe depression.  It's pretty obvious that this is just another bleak episode.  We're compassionate with you when you talk about your mental illness, and you should probably extend the same courtesy to other users.


Last edited by Lemminkainen on Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:39 am; edited 1 time in total

Lemminkainen

Posts : 143
Reputation : 58
Join date : 2014-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Bitterness

Post by The Wisp on Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:32 am

Lemminkainen wrote:Wisp: I think that your tone is kind of harsh and inappropriate, and your conclusion is unfair.  As Glides has admitted to us in more lucid moments, he knows that there are problems with these arguments, and he mostly gives in to believing them because of his severed depression.  It's pretty obvious that this is just another bleak episode.  We're compassionate with you when you talk about your mental illness, and you should probably extend the same courtesy to other users.

You're right, I was harsh. I have a ton of first and second hand experience with anxiety, but little with severe depression, so maybe my intuitions here aren't good.

Glides, I think you're a great guy and I sincerely wish the best for you.
avatar
The Wisp

Posts : 896
Reputation : 198
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Bitterness

Post by Guest on Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:41 am

Glides wrote:
Sam Raimi made Evil Dead at 22. Robert Rodriguez and Kevin Smith made their first films at 23. Steven Spielberg made his first at 24. Orson Welles made his first at 25. I don't have much time left in which to try and outdo them. That's not to say that I'm somehow better than all of those people, just that I want to see if I am and I'd rather try and fail than be the class dunce.

I knew this was gonna pop-up at some point. Razz Okay, listen, I was in the same boat thinking the same thing as you. I thought the same thing when I read Raimi, Rodriguez, Smith and Welles made their flicks so young, but you know what else? All their movies were, for lack of a better term, mistakes. Welles had absolutely NO IDEA what the fuck he was doing in regards to movie making, a lot of movies at the time being made all kinda same-y. But then comes this kid, Orson Welles who has no idea wtf he's doing and makes an American classic, he did not set out to make a classic, he did not set out to make the perfect movie, he just went out there to make a movie. A movie HE wanted to watch and that's the same of a lot of these filmmakers up here, hell, remember, there is no such thing as originality anymore. In fact, I'm gonna keep telling you what Picasso said and what Banksy ripped off, "Good artists imitate, great artists steal." Where do you think some of the best directors got their ideas from? From the dudes before them and where did they get their inspiration from? Photography, paintings, other filmmakers, experimentation, etc.

Just do what a lot of filmmakers before you have done, either rip them off, or make a movie YOU wanna see. Don't try to out do them, that's a fool's errand, no matter how hard you try, you can't remake Clerks, you can't remake Raimi's Evil Dead -- well you can try, but it won't be the same, case-in-point the 2013 version, which was also fantastic and the director for that film got picked up off YOUTUBE OF ALL PLACES -- nor can you try and remake El Mariachi or Citizen Kane. You can certainly rip-off their techniques or scenes they did and put your own personal twist to 'em, yes you can.

Shit, at my internship I wrote a script that melded together ideas from Blade Runner and 2001: A Space Odyssey with a commentary on how attached we are to technology. All that in a 3-page script with a single location.

The best advice I can give you overall is this: they're people just like you and they put their pants on like everyone else. Yes, your first few flicks will blow, but whatever, you get better. A prime example of this is me, I started shooting videos for my church last summer, and the first one looked pretty meh, and then I watch the ones I make now and I'm blown away at my own progress. Shoot me a PM if you wanna see what I mean, man.

Here, have some motivational music so that at the end of you projects you can say, I Did it My Way (I dunno how you feel about Sid Vicious, personally I don't like him but this song rocks).

Glides wrote:
Being a nearly 20 year old virgin is not even close to being average, I'm almost three years past the average date of loss. The later I lose it, the less amount of sex I can have (you know, being older=less time for anything).



I'm 22, how do you think I feel? Or rather, the folks that are older than you and I that are still virgins, you know? Sure it hurts like hell and sucks, but fuck it, we gotta deal with it.

Glides wrote:
And the one thing the Doc continually gets wrong and continually has his head in the sand about is people not giving a shit about sexual experience. He's openly stated in many of his articles how people don't care if you're a virgin (they'll care more if you complain, of course). But everyone does, they're insulted all the time whenever someone insults a neckbeard. Virgins are second class citizens (not literally, but figuratively) in the sense that people finding out you're a virgin is an automatic buzzkill, an almost guaranteed ladybonerkiller.

Not at all true. In a moment of buzzed vulnerability, I told a female friend of mine *I* was a virgin, you know what she said, "Oh, that's awesome, I think that's pretty noble of you. I wish I was still a virgin." Course, that didn't mean she was gonna deflower me (not by a long shot), but being a virgin, a male virgin no less, isn't exactly a bad thing.

Glides wrote:
The forum refuses to believe this despite people like me repeatedly demonstrating how the opposite is in fact true. Virginity is a big deal. It's not that women don't want virgins, it's that people don't want virgins, and they can tell by how awful a virgin can be at sex ("it's not true! Virgins can be great!" Lied the people who lost their virginities in the average age range)

"Why is he so bitter about that?"

Because I have to lie to get into bed with anyone, pretending that I'm a physically attractive enough man. Or whatever.

I dunno how great virgins can be in the sack, I still have been there nor have a been with a virgin either. What the forumites are getting at is, so long as YOU don't make a big deal out of it, neither will you partner. Which has been confirmed by multiple people across the internet, not just here.

Also, a quick PROTIP: Don't lie; instead do what I do most of the time and don't mention that you're a virgin, easy. If they're into you, they're into you. ;D

Glides wrote:
I'm once again repeating that it's perfectly logical to hate my kind, since we're no good in bed and the majority of us tend to be neckbeards.

I shall have you know I only have a neck-ish beard currently due to it being No Shave November!! Uh-oh

Glides wrote:
I wouldn't be complaining if I wasn't lumped in with those living fuckups. I wouldn't even mind being a virgin so much if not for the negative connotations of being one, which are pretty recent.

So far I haven't seen much of a negative connotation towards virgins unless the "virgin" in question is a real asshole.

Glides wrote:
You can all pretend that I'm wrong, despite having personally seen and experienced the truth for myself. But the forum is generally filled with "sexually liberated" people, and the rest of the world is the complete opposite. Not to mention how the people who hate us most are the people who claim to be the most sexually progressive. They just like beating the "we've had more sex than you HAHAHAHAHAHA we have more value!" dead horse.

I won't say you're wrong since, I don't know what your personal experiences were like, nor was I there. However, I am not exactly 'sexually liberated', whatever that means, but I do know I'm open towards my sexuality. Also, I still have not seen much hate towards virgins from the sexually progressive. Links?

Glides wrote:
No, I can't exactly find any way to be happy right now.

Been there. :3

Glides wrote:
Go out in a flash of glory, right? I don't want to be old anyway, it sounds like absolute torture. My grandfather is basically on his deathbed at this point, I don't want to have to deal with that. So irregardless, I'm probably going to kill myself anyway even if I don't do so because of depression. How many old people are physically able to have any fun? I don't want the aches and the pains and the helplessness. I was already a baby once. The second I feel anything like that, I'm out. No fucking way I'm going to tolerate that aging crap for decades on end, unless that magical anti-aging crap is invented in my lifetime.

Nooo, no-no-no, suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. I've thought about killing myself as well since I was maybe 12, but I don't tell people that very often and I've only kept myself from doing so because of my family. Also, my grandpa is about 70 and still kickin' ass & takin' names, it's all about how you take care of yourself now and in your later years.

Anyway, there's not much else I can offer you in terms of advice. Only you can work through your issues, man.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Bitterness

Post by UristMcBunny on Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:41 am

Glides, you're clearly deep in a depressive period right now, and that is going to make everything feel so much harder than it needs to be. Doesn't matter. Things are hard for you right now, regardless of whether it's down to depression or outside circumstances or - likely - a combination of both.

And that's okay. I know it doesn't feel like it right now, but I promise you that what you're feeling right now will pass. It might feel like you're wading neck-deep through a sludge of depression, but you can get through it.

You're comparing yourself to the rarest of rare geniuses. The fact that you aren't doing what 0.0001% of people manage at your age doesn't make you a failure. It doesn't make you worthless. It doesn't even make you "merely" normal. I don't know you outside these forums so cannot say with authority just how exceptional you are, but I do know the Glides I see is worth more than you give him credit.

Right now the most important thing you can do is take care of yourself as best you're able. You might not be able to do it all just at the moment, and that's okay too. But if you can, please try to make sure that you eat enough food, including foods that make your body feel good and foods that you personally enjoy. Drink plenty of water. Build yourself a nest out of bedding in your room and make it a little haven where you can write, or create art, or read, or watch stuff.

_________________
Some of you will know me as Bunny from the old forums.
avatar
UristMcBunny
Moderator of "Romantic and Sexual Relationships"

Posts : 371
Reputation : 116
Join date : 2014-09-24

View user profile http://uristmcdorf.tumblr.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Bitterness

Post by nearly_takuan on Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:02 am

The ability to properly accept a compliment is not a fixed trait or even an attribute check; it's a skill. Throw all your points into it at next level-up. The main thing is to just not start an argument with the person who complimented you. Expressing gratitude is even better. Insisting that the compliment is "empty" and just generally implying that the compliment-giver is unobservant or disingenuous is...not the way to go.

You don't wanna believe you're courageous? You literally just said you stuck around in a class half the students dropped out of. Even if you weren't doing that well yourself, deciding to try anyway was courageous.

Glides wrote:Sam Raimi made Evil Dead at 22. Robert Rodriguez and Kevin Smith made their first films at 23. Steven Spielberg made his first at 24. Orson Welles made his first at 25. I don't have much time left in which to try and outdo them. That's not to say that I'm somehow better than all of those people, just that I want to see if I am and I'd rather try and fail than be the class dunce.

Do recall that you're talking to a math major! Razz

Lemminkainen covered most of the better examples; I want to add that Hitchcock might have been 19 when he wrote his first published story, but he was almost 40 when he made his first real film. There are always exceptions, and even if you can't outdo the ten best film directors ever, that doesn't put you below the average. It certainly doesn't make you a dunce!

I'm gonna skip the sex stuff because it'll be even easier for you to dismiss what I have to say about that than the rest of this. Actually, while I was writing this (and, well, other stuff came up), everyone else kinda...already said it better.
avatar
nearly_takuan

Posts : 1057
Reputation : 431
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Bitterness

Post by Gman on Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:49 am

[ltr]Ok Glides, first and foremost it's clear that you are going through a very rough depressive episode right now and I really think you should take care of yourself right now. That being said I would like to respond to some of the things you wrote: [/ltr]
 

Glides wrote:[ltr]Being a nearly 20 year old virgin is not even close to being average, I'm almost three years past the average date of loss. The later I lose it, the less amount of sex I can have (you know, being older=less time for anything).[/ltr]


[ltr]And the one thing the Doc continually gets wrong and continually has his head in the sand about is people not giving a shit about sexual experience. He's openly stated in many of his articles how people don't care if you're a virgin (they'll care more if you complain, of course). But everyone does, they're insulted all the time whenever someone insults a neckbeard. Virgins are second class citizens (not literally, but figuratively) in the sense that people finding out you're a virgin is an automatic buzzkill, an almost guaranteed ladybonerkiller. The forum refuses to believe this despite people like me repeatedly demonstrating how the opposite is in fact true. Virginity is a big deal. It's not that women don't want virgins, it's that people don't want virgins, and they can tell by how awful a virgin can be at sex ("it's not true! Virgins can be great!" Lied the people who lost their virginities in the average age range)[/ltr]


 
[ltr]Let me remind you that I was 25 when I lost mine – that is 8 years over the average. Also, I am once again here to remind you that I am living proof that being a virgin IS MOST DEFINETLY NOT a major automatic ladybonerkiller. Also, I can easily dismiss your claim that virgins can't be good at sex if it is done beyond the "average" age range. [/ltr]

[ltr]Also, if you look at me, you can basically say that I am a complete and utter "failure" too, so to speak. I am 26, still living with (and financially also off) my parents (A.K.A like I'm some sort of "manchild parasite"). I had a summer time job but it ended and I just can't see myself getting a new job anytime soon. I don't really have much of a savings. I have absolutely no clue what to do with myself once my M.A. is over, what field do I want to work in (even though I do have a general sense of direction). Some of my other class mates are fully independent, living on their own (one told me he left his home for the first time at the age of 21), working in stable and successful jobs, some of them are even already married by now. Compared to them, I am WAY, WAY behind. [/ltr]

[ltr]But despite all that – I am happy with my current situation. While I most definitely need to start thinking about finding a stable job and moving out, I can honestly say that I am all around doing O.K. Getting to the point where you can tell yourself these things is an EXTREMLEY DIFFICULT PROCESS and I still have the occasional downward spiral where I find myself feeling like the most worthless piece of human being ever created. [/ltr]


[ltr]So for now, all I can ask of you is to REALLY try to be kind with yourself. Indulge yourself in whatever activity you like best and just do your best to hold on. As someone who knows (and sometimes still does) know the pain, fear and anxiety that these issues can create, the most important thing is to stay strong and not be afraid to ask for help or a lending ear when things seem just to hopeless from being fixed/saved/changed. While I do not know how it is to be on a full on depression, just know that I can totally relate to some of the things you said here. [/ltr]
avatar
Gman

Posts : 233
Reputation : 57
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Bitterness

Post by Enail on Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:58 pm

Everyone else has covered most of what I might want to say, so I'm just going to cherrypick a bit.

Glides wrote:
Literally anyone's a too generalized example, I agree with you there. I'm also bad at accepting compliments. When I think interesting or courageous, I think the most interesting person and the most courageous person and compare those ideals with myself. Not to mention how empty compliments are a dime a dozen in this society.

I am not 'this society.' I was not giving you an empty compliment. You don't have to believe I'm correct, but please do me the respect of believing that I sincerely think you are intelligent, interesting and courageous, and that those are not things I think about everyone.

Glides wrote:
I said that one of them was worse at it than I was. Half of the program has dropped out, I'm only better by being the dumbass who stuck around.

Good news: that's how a lot of people who land up succeeding do it.  

Because I have to lie to get into bed with anyone, pretending that I'm a physically attractive enough man. Or whatever.

I'm once again repeating that it's perfectly logical to hate my kind, since we're no good in bed and the majority of us tend to be neckbeards. I wouldn't be complaining if I wasn't lumped in with those living fuckups. I wouldn't even mind being a virgin so much if not for the negative connotations of being one, which are pretty recent.

You can all pretend that I'm wrong, despite having personally seen and experienced the truth for myself. But the forum is generally filled with "sexually liberated" people, and the rest of the world is the complete opposite. Not to mention how the people who hate us most are the people who claim to be the most sexually progressive. They just like beating the "we've had more sex than you HAHAHAHAHAHA we have more value!" dead horse.

Yeah, there are people who will judge you for being a virgin, including people who consider themselves sexually progressive. But there are also people  who won't; the people on this forum are not some magical group of beings more enlightened than everyone else in the world. So, maybe you'll need to find people like that to meet someone you feel you can tell, or people you feel you can be open about yourself in general with. Or maybe you'll just not mention it and it'll be no big deal.

Glide, try to remember that you're in a depressive episode right now, that your mind is actively working to make everything feel more hopeless and reduce things to dramatic black-and-white. Don't let it convince you things are that clearcut and bad.


You can call me irrational all you want, but that's the only way my involuntary celibacy could get any worse. Best possible scenario is to make a million dollars tomorrow somehow and spend it all on hookers or something. I've actually reached the point where I'd buy a hooker if I could afford one. I'm getting increasingly desperate and that's not very healthy. And it would be awful soulless sex, but people who look like me and act like me simply don't have the whole "intimacy" or "connection" thing with people. We have to pay people to pretend to like us. And hookers make for fantastic actors if they can successfully pretend that I'm a sexually desirable human being.

Again, this is kind of black-and-whitening things in a way that I think makes things harder for you. You want intimacy and human connection. You want to have sex. Maybe your first time will not give you the intimacy you're looking for; maybe it'll just be a fun time, without having to be awful and soulless. Or maybe it'll be awkward and not that great. If it will make you feel more confident (and remember, your jerkbrain might work against you on that too), is that really so terrible? Maybe your first time having that kind of intimacy won't be when you're having sex.


Think of it like this: people like me and everyone else are like lobsters in a boiling pot. Everyone else are these magical lobsters who can withstand the boiling water that is life. And lobsters like me try to get out by getting the will to pull the trigger or strangle ourselves or what have you. But then these magical lobsters (all of you) who are strong enough try to drag me back in, because I look like you, I look like a strong magical lobster when I'm just an ordinary burned one.

Does that mean that the magical lobsters never suffer? Of course they all do, they all deal with the most horrible things in existence. But I'm the kind of lobster who was never given the strength or magic to survive for much longer. I'm sure many of you were given far worse lives than I've ever had, and the virginity and failing school and all that is nothing in comparison. But you guys are strong enough to take it. I'm not.

I think you've got things wrong; you are dealing with something really, really difficult and horrible. You think you're weak because you're struggling with it and seeing other people managing more easily, but not everyone is dealing with what you are dealing with. Severe depression is awful, no matter how strong you are. It's okay to be having a hard time. It doesn't mean you're weak.


Look, you people on the forum like me more because I'm better at expressing myself when I write. I'm not needed in my daily life. It would affect nothing if I was gone apart from my immediate family. People would be kinda bummed and then get over it. "Shit, had no idea that guy was so sad. What a shame." "What a fucking weirdo he was. Still looked happy, though." They're not assholes, they'd be sad. But they'd get over it because I'm not the person who makes an impact, or connects with people. I don't do that even when I try to. My family will be distraught and get over it. I'm gonna wait till my grandpa has been dead for several years. I hate writing those words because I don't want him to die. But he's probably going to die, and I'll wait till everyone recovers before making my move.

I suspect that you are wrong about how much people care about you, because that's exactly the kind of thing depression tells you, no matter how untrue. But even if you were right, if we like you because you're better at expressing yourself when you write, that means there's something in you that is likeable, that is worth caring about, if you can express it.

Glides, it's obvious you're having a really hard time right now. Please look after yourself and be kind to yourself while you ride out this episode. And please, think about trying some more drastic things to help yourself survive rather than taking the drastic and irreversible action of killing yourself - tell someone you're scared to tell, try a treatment you don't think will work, go to the hospital if you need to, check into a psychiatric institution. I know you don't feel like those are good options, but they all have the advantage of not being permanent.

You are not weak for suffering. It takes a lot of strength to keep going through all this and survive. I'm proud of you. You can do this.
avatar
Enail
Admin

Posts : 3392
Reputation : 1672
Join date : 2014-09-22

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Bitterness

Post by Suika on Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:30 pm

Dealing with problems about sex in a reasonable manner is quite hard when you feel like the risk of joining the 1,5% who die as virgins isn't just a possibility, it's your inevitable fate.
avatar
Suika

Posts : 73
Reputation : 3
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Bitterness

Post by Guest on Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:49 pm

I'm gonna try to be as reasoned as I can. I'm too tired to start any kind of real rant, so that's not an issue.

Ignoring the sex thing, the lack of a social life (grad school basically alienated me from my entire social group, they don't really want anything to do with me anymore even online), the lack of a career (which I can't even technically have since I'm a full-time student), and all that, I'm simply so overworked that it makes every day hell.

I know what to expect now: I'm going to walk in with whatever work I have completed and be completely decimated for it. I can't figure out what the hell I did wrong. My brain isn't functioning well enough to defend any mistake I've made.

"Why did you put this shot here? This violates the BLAH BLAH BLAH rule!"
"I don't know."

Because hell if I know what the rules are, they're so incredibly vague and so many other films violate them that I suspect the rules are just a bullshit excuse to dock points.

"Why is the camera quality shit?"

Because I can't afford big Hollywood cameras that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, you fucking idiot. How the hell can I make any cinematic image with my DSLR? I can make YouTube quality stuff, and you should be happy that you can even see and hear the fuckers.

Because I know that no matter what work I do, I'm going to walk in the next day and have it ripped to shreds, despite there being no way for me to avoid making those mistakes, because you simply can't make a good film with the shit equipment I have. It requires huge amounts of money that I don't have.

Quite simply, I don't know how to do anything else except what I like. "That light was placed wrong!"

When I placed it anywhere else, it looked worse. Seriously, hang out with me when I'm shooting with those ten year old lights you give new students because you don't trust them with the big boys. Watch what I do. It's taking me damn near twenty minutes per shot just to adjust the fucking settings since everything is so fucking old. Everything's broken down because so many people have used it for so many years, then you get mad when it inevitably looks like shit.

Yes, this is a rant. I apologize.

I am absolutely exhausted, to the point where I accidentally drove on a one way road backwards and nearly collided head on with another car. I'm so tired that I can't even remember if it was a suicide attempt or not.

Of course I want to die! I just want it all to end. I want permanent sleep. I don't even want to die, I want the pain to stop, and death's the only permanent solution to an eternal problem.

I'm too tired to even seriously consider attempting it. It's taking all of my energy right now not to burst into tears.

I just don't know how much longer I can tolerate this horseshit.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Bitterness

Post by UristMcBunny on Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:32 pm

MOD NOTE This thread is now closed per forum rules. Glides, this is NOT because we don't care, but because we want to encourage you to reach for assistance from qualified professionals so that you can be safe. You can find a big list of worldwide resources here, including low-cost resources.

This absolutely doesn’t mean we don’t want to hear from you! Once you're safe, let us know how you’re doing. This isn't a ban on talking about suicidal feelings - we’re still here to listen and offer support on coping with the difficult stuff - but if you’re currently in danger, please, get help first and save posting for later.

On a personal note, Glides, please feel free to talk to me. I can't promise I can make things better, but I am more than happy to listen to you if you feel like that would help.

_________________
Some of you will know me as Bunny from the old forums.
avatar
UristMcBunny
Moderator of "Romantic and Sexual Relationships"

Posts : 371
Reputation : 116
Join date : 2014-09-24

View user profile http://uristmcdorf.tumblr.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Bitterness

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum