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Post by Gman on Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:57 pm

So I decided to open a new thread to talk about reading signals of potential people you might be interested in and knowing how to move on from there. I got the idea after reading the following comment from the Doc's Latest blog post:

Eliza Jane wrote:I'm not sure what you mean by this question. I have signals that say, "Yes, keep going, you're in a sweet spot": leaning in, smiling, placing hands or legs or arms in easy touching range, playing with my hair. Then I have signals that say, "Okay, guy, we're still okay, but maybe slow down a bit?" Those include shifting slightly further away from a person, losing the smile, and pulling away from contact. I have signals that say, "GO AWAY AND LEAVE ME ALONE," such as diligently avoiding eye contact, grimaces, wrapping my arms around each other, and silence or grunting non-words in place of answers to questions or comments. 

The signals I would give Brad Pitt to say, "Yes, keep coming! I like!" are the same signals I'd use on anyone else to say those things. I'm not going to say that to everyone, because unless I see something I like, I'm not really interested in encouraging you. 

As an interesting sidebar, the reason I do so much of the signalling, "Look, I'm here!" instead of being active and touching myself is that I SUCK at reading interest in people. I don't at all trust myself to know, "This person is interested" so rather than make them uncomfortable, I signal my interest as clearly as I can, but leave it to them to make a move. This probably means I miss out on some opportunities with similarly circumspect guys, but I'd rather have that than be that creepy girl that reaches into men's shirts. Wink

This makes me realize something rather alarming - this is hands down one of my weakest social skills - reading other peoples non-verbal (and sometimes also verbal) signals, unless they are very blatant and obvious. Now that I think about it, even when I met my ex I was suprisingly oblivious - when we went on our first date, while I did see that she was in general enjoying our conversation, I had no idea if she was curious about moving foward with things or not. I basically took a giant personal leap of faith and held her hand like some high school awkward teenager when we were walking down the street. It was only then, when I felt that she was giving me back a strong grip that she is probably just a bit interested. It wasn't until we kissed that I (obviously) knew that she was interested. During the whole time, I was a nervous mess because I just couldn't see beyond my own awkwardness and I was frustrated that I couldn't realize if she was giving me hints or not and if I am about to make an ass of myself or not. 
Sometime later when we were dating, she told me that she was really bewildered with me throughout most of the first date - she told me she was giving me plenty of signals, but I didn't respond to them at all, I didn't touch her at all. It was only when we held hands that she realized that I WAS interested, just kind of awkward about it. 

Whats REALLY frustrating me here too is that when it gets to dancing - I became rather keen on non-verbal signals. For example, if a woman looks away from me when dancing, doesn't smile (or gives a forced kind of smile) or is too stiff or to soft in her grip then I know something is bothering her (doesn't matter if it's me or not) and I keep it to a very minimal style of dance and keep my distance. On the other hand, there are woman that I got to know by being a regular at certain places and they have absolutley zero problems staying physically close (some of them even get a bit more intimate in thier dance with me), smile a lot, adjust thier grip pressure to mine and more. It's Ironic, because when it comes to regular social interactions, I still suck at them. This has caused some awkward attempts to ask a few of the women from my dance scene out - but nothing came out of it. I realised that I was taking the more intimate dance signals of some of the women as romantic signals when in reality it's just how they like to roll while dancing in general.
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Post by azazel on Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:00 pm

Most clear signals I ever got? Girl that meant nothing by them.

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Post by nearly_takuan on Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:25 pm

Because it might be related, I'm curious about how both of you perceive the signals you send at times. Do you ever consciously try to signal anything? What kind of signal-to-noise ratio do you think you get if you do? (i.e. do you think other people are reading your signals correctly?)

I would say any attempt to test the waters before asking someone out is itself a signal; it just may not be a very clear signal depending on how you're executing said attempt.
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Post by Gman on Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:22 am

nearly_takuan wrote:Because it might be related, I'm curious about how both of you perceive the signals you send at times. Do you ever consciously try to signal anything? W

Well.... Not really :-/. When I think about it, I don't actually remember giving out any signals that were an active action from me and that I conciously remember.... I usually just try to have a conversation and then simply try and look for signals from there on.... never really realised that I should probably try signaling myself.... 

So I guess that my new question is then, how do you signal?
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Post by nearly_takuan on Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:36 am

Try an older blog post. (If you understand it, feel free to explain it to me too. Razz )
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Post by Aggrax on Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:10 am

Honestly sometimes I don't even understand general signals people are giving out. Forget flirting, I can't even tell if the people around me are annoyed with me or not. So I usually just default to not talking at all.
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Post by azazel on Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:59 am

nearly_takuan wrote:Because it might be related, I'm curious about how both of you perceive the signals you send at times. Do you ever consciously try to signal anything? What kind of signal-to-noise ratio do you think you get if you do? (i.e. do you think other people are reading your signals correctly?)

I would say any attempt to test the waters before asking someone out is itself a signal; it just may not be a very clear signal depending on how you're executing said attempt.

Hmmm... I think most of my signals would involve touching the other person (like on a bench shoving your your shoulder against theirs lightly in a playful way to accentuate something). And I'd say the signal to noise ratio is pretty low, to be honest. I get anxiety attacks when I'm too clear about my attraction, plus I don't like touching other people without express permission in general. So I could imagine my signals would only be detectable by knowing how averse I am against touching and then seeing how this changes around you.

Not that that stops people I'm nót sending signals to of course (Who are most of the time taken btw). Boobs planted on my head, unannounced hugs, etc. etc. I've asked someone once why everyone does that and the answer was "you just look cuddly".


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Post by Gman on Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:35 am

nearly_takuan wrote:Try an older blog post. (If you understand it, feel free to explain it to me too. Razz )

Thanks for the link, but I don't find it all that usefull - it's mostly stuff that I already know anyway (seem more approachable, wear fitting and appropriate clothes, don't look like a hobo, etc). My problem is that I find myself not knowing how to signal interest without doing more direct things like asking out on a date.

azazel wrote:
Not that that stops people I'm nót sending signals to of course (Who are most of the time taken btw). Boobs planted on my head, unannounced hugs, etc. etc. I've asked someone once why everyone does that and the answer was "you just look cuddly".

Wait...... Boobs planted on head......... is that, like, for real?! People actually do that?! WTF? If that happened to me, I'd be a mixture of shocked and a little scared, how do you even respond to something like that?!
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Post by Guest on Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:46 am

Depending on the endowments of the lady in question, I'd probably ask her to speak up. Smile

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Post by azazel on Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:48 am

Gman wrote:
azazel wrote:
Not that that stops people I'm nót sending signals to of course (Who are most of the time taken btw). Boobs planted on my head, unannounced hugs, etc. etc. I've asked someone once why everyone does that and the answer was "you just look cuddly".

Wait...... Boobs planted on head......... is that, like, for real?! People actually do that?! WTF? If that happened to me, I'd be a mixture of shocked and a little scared, how do you even respond to something like that?!

You nailed it pretty much.

I froze up, couldn't think of a good response, and just continued with what I was doing (playing a boardgame to be exact) trying to ignore what was happening.
Of course, I should have just said no, I clearly wanted it since I didn't protest.

One tip: Don't read "how women flirt" threads on reddit. An uncomfortable amount of posts are basically sexual harassment.

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Post by nearly_takuan on Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:10 am

Most articles I can easily find re: "how a woman can tell if a man is interested in her" can be summarized as he stalks you and invades your personal space. Plenty of others are so self-contradictory as to be useless: he chooses his words slowly and carefully, or he gets flustered; he sits with his legs wide open, or he acts extra respectful around you. Sure, those will correspond to the flirty behaviors of men with one of a set of very specific personality types, but there's way more potential for false positives if a given woman tries to read any of those as Definitely Signs That He's Into You.

I figure it's the same in the other direction, if not worse.
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Post by azazel on Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:52 am

nearly_takuan wrote:Most articles I can easily find re: "how a woman can tell if a man is interested in her" can be summarized as he stalks you and invades your personal space. Plenty of others are so self-contradictory as to be useless: he chooses his words slowly and carefully, or he gets flustered; he sits with his legs wide open, or he acts extra respectful around you. Sure, those will correspond to the flirty behaviors of men with one of a set of very specific personality types, but there's way more potential for false positives if a given woman tries to read any of those as Definitely Signs That He's Into You.

I figure it's the same in the other direction, if not worse.

I couldn't finish Twilight book I for this reason. I promised a friend I would read it before I complained about it, but it was too horrific.
For example, Bella didn't feel well and tried to leave school, Edward offered her a ride, Bella declined, Edward got pissed off and ordered her into his car.

It didn't get better after that. If the writer wrote was she had experience with, I feel truly sorry for her.

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Post by Guest on Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:40 am

Okay, so as I said in the comment that started this, I SUCK at signals. I am pretty much never willing to accept them as real, so I tend to scream my signals as loud as I can and hope they get picked up on, or else just say things straight out.

However, I think one of the issues with signals is that people want to find a signal of "Yes, I like you, sex now!" or "No, I hate you, go away." Most signals are more on a three-axis spectrum:

1. I like this and want it to go on
2. I am open to this continuing, but am not really invested in it
3. This is too much, back off.

And they change all the time. Looking for a yes signal or a no signal is like asking, "Is this a gas pedal road or a brakes road." Every road requires you to use both sometimes, to respond to traffic patterns, handle hills and curves safely, and get on and off the road.

Signals are like that. It's possible that a person's signals absolutely were saying, "I'm open to this!" but after five minutes, they're no longer interested. Neutral signals can turn either good or bad. I've only rarely seen bad signals go anywhere but worse under pressure.

In nearly_takuan's example above, I would read those signals as possible signs of interest and respond accordingly, not trusting blindly, but trying small-level overtures and watching for new signals. My "put my hand close to theirs" is a pretty effective one, as a woman: if I put my hand right there, they will sometimes touch it, sometimes inch their hand closer to mine, and sometimes either ignore it or pull back. That's new information, which I have to (panic about and) figure out how to use.

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Post by Mel on Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:54 am

So much what ElizaJane said. Signals aren't binary and are only statements of what the person is feeling in that moment, which can change as the interaction continues.

I'd also say that I'd imagine for most of us the signals for friendly interest and romantic interest are not that different up to a certain point. I highly doubt that someone I'm talking to could tell the difference between my smile and eye contact and body positioning that means, "I'm really enjoying this conversation and want to keep talking to you because I'm finding you interesting" and all of the above plus "and I'm physically attracted to you." I mean, interest is interest is interest. Even physical contact--I will nudge and pat people I feel comfortable and friendly with, without any romantic intent. Unless you're getting positive signals in the context of an overtly romantic/sexual scenario (e.g., making clearly romantic/sexual comments rather than just regular conversation, touching in clearly romantic/sexual coded ways like holding hands, touching face, thigh), all you can really judge is that the person is likely into you on some level, not necessarily romantic/sexual. So if you get what you think are positive signals and then the person declines a date or whatever, that doesn't necessarily mean you were wrong, only that they weren't positive in that way.

For me personally, reading people in general is something I struggle with. Body language, tone of voice, even the actual words used... I often find myself thinking I've hit it off with someone and then they don't seem interested in further (friendly) communication later, or finding that people I didn't think seemed very interested are pursuing further communication. I find a lot of the doublespeak that goes on for politeness sake hard to navigate (e.g., people seem to constantly say things like, "We should get together sometime!" without actually wanting to ever get together with you... although occasionally they actually do, and I have found no way of telling which is which other than waiting for the other person to initiate with specifics), and because it bothers me I don't like to do it myself (I would only say "We should get together sometime" to someone I actually would want to hang out with) which I suspect gives people the impression I'm less engaged than I really am (because "We should get together sometime" means "This was a reasonably enjoyable conversation" or something like that, and if I don't say the former it implies I didn't enjoy the conversation at all?).

tl;dr: Social communication is frickin' hard.
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Post by kath on Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:11 pm

I am generally pretty good at reading body language / tone of voice, but I also tend to ignore any romantic dimension to any of it. I do not flirt, I do not respond in-kind to general flirtiness at me.

I agree with Mel that the "I'm interested in you romantically" signals aren't always going to be very different from "I'm interested in you as another human" signals, and of course, everyone is different. So if you are into someone and get general signals that they like you too, you may as well ask them out, and just accept the risk that they may not be interested that way (like, it may just be how they like to dance) and be respectful and cool about it, and it shouldn't be a huge issue.

For "We should get together sometime" I tend to think that people who say it would in general like to get together ... because the conversation was good and it would be nice to continue it ... but it might not be super easy to make that happen. Although I am like THE WORST at planning friend get-togethers, so maybe that's based on my difficulty of actually doing stuff about that and then coordinating schedules and blah blah.
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Post by Dan_Brodribb on Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:26 pm

gman, azazel, and nearly_takuan, I wonder if you can be a bit more specific in your problems reading signals.

Are you having problems noticing what the other person is doing (smiling, moving closer, etc.)?

-Are you noticing what they are doing, but not sure which things are meaningful and whcih things aren't?

-Are you noticing what the person is doing but having difficulty interpreting what that means?

- Are you seeing what they are doing, making an interpretation and not sure how to know whether that interpretation is correct?

- Are you seeing what they are doing, making an interpretation, know how to test whether that interpretation is correct but are finding yourself too shy/anxious/nervous to do so?

Something else?

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Post by azazel on Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:18 pm

Dan_Brodribb wrote:Are you noticing what they are doing, but not sure which things are meaningful and which things aren't?

Thissss.

Jumping up from games to hug me when she sees me, sitting uncomfortably close to me on a bench while there's enough space to fit both of us comfortably, finding other excuses to touch me --> still #Friendzoned.

Inquiring whether I'm gay or not --> later learned that she fancied me.

"Signals" make no sense at all, at least to me.

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Post by nearly_takuan on Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:43 pm

Dan_Brodribb wrote:Are you having problems noticing what the other person is doing (smiling, moving closer, etc.)?

-Are you noticing what they are doing, but not sure which things are meaningful and which things aren't?

One of these two, I think. If people smile or move closer, I don't notice. Could just be that I automatically/prematurely discard the information as not meaningful though. This isn't something I've spent much time consciously thinking about while in company, so I haven't paid much attention to how much attention I paid... scratch

ETA: Hey, thanks for breaking it down that way.


Last edited by nearly_takuan on Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Gman on Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:58 pm

Dan_Brodribb wrote:-Are you noticing what they are doing, but not sure which things are meaningful and whcih things aren't?

-Are you noticing what the person is doing but having difficulty interpreting what that means?

It's mostly these two. I get so confused sometimes, especially because there are too many times where I think the signals mean something, when they mean nothing at all. It comes to a point where I delibraltley tell myself to ignore a signal or two because I think to myself that "95% chance that doesn't mean anything". 
Also I have a serious problem when it comes to flirting myself, I have no clue how to do it. Because from what I understand, that is the way to assess the situation and try and see how the other sides responds to YOUR signals without having to outright ask the person if they want to go on a date. It might as well be just as random as trying to interpret signals, but at least it allows to discover if there is interest without being blunt or too obvious about it.
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Post by Dan_Brodribb on Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:39 pm

Gman wrote:
Also I have a serious problem when it comes to flirting myself, I have no clue how to do it. Because from what I understand, that is the way to assess the situation and try and see how the other sides responds to YOUR signals without having to outright ask the person if they want to go on a date. It might as well be just as random as trying to interpret signals, but at least it allows to discover if there is interest without being blunt or too obvious about it.

I'm not sure I agree. I think at some point you DO have to outright ask (at least in the culture, I'm from--North American "Mainstream"). Flirting does not necessarily lead to dating, as you and Azazel have already noted.

One thing I wanted to point out is this stuff is hard for a lot of people. Most of us have varying skills of being able to read people and ability to let people know what we want without coming out and saying it.

The reason I mention this is because I get the impression the three of you are concerned that you are defective in some way for having trouble with this skill or that you're alone in the world because you have this trouble. It's not the case. It's normal to FEEL alone in the world when we're having trouble connecting, but it's worth remembering that others are struggling too--it's just not always visible. Most of us can improve with practice at it, but some of us are always going to have a little more or a little less to work with than others.

I guess the next question I have is: Where are you in terms of your desire, time, and energy to work on this area of your life?

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Post by azazel on Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:43 pm

Dan_Brodribb wrote:
Gman wrote:
Also I have a serious problem when it comes to flirting myself, I have no clue how to do it. Because from what I understand, that is the way to assess the situation and try and see how the other sides responds to YOUR signals without having to outright ask the person if they want to go on a date. It might as well be just as random as trying to interpret signals, but at least it allows to discover if there is interest without being blunt or too obvious about it.

I'm not sure I agree. I think at some point you DO have to outright ask (at least in the culture, I'm from--North American "Mainstream"). Flirting does not necessarily lead to dating, as you and Azazel have already noted.

One thing I wanted to point out is this stuff is hard for a lot of people. Most of us have varying skills of being able to read people and ability to let people know what we want without coming out and saying it.

The reason I mention this is because I get the impression the three of you are concerned that you are defective in some way for having trouble with this skill or that you're alone in the world because you have this trouble. It's not the case. It's normal to FEEL alone in the world when we're having trouble connecting, but it's worth remembering that others are struggling too--it's just not always visible. Most of us can improve with practice at it, but some of us are always going to have a little more or a little less to work with than others.

I guess the next question I have is: Where are you in terms of your desire, time, and energy to work on this area of your life?

Oh no! I'm really not concerned I'm the only one who has this problem.
Combined with not being a really touchy person it does mean that any date I meet is going to think I'm uninterested in them, but I'm in the process of accepting that.

First comes the stage that you have to accept you're boring, then comes the stage you also have to accept you're unattractive, and lastly comes the stage that you accept that even status will not make a difference because you can't read signals for shit.

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Post by Gman on Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:09 pm

Dan_Brodribb wrote:

I guess the next question I have is: Where are you in terms of your desire, time, and energy to work on this area of your life?

Well, of course I'm not the only one that has a tough time with this, never wanted to imply that that's how I think.
Well, I am planning on trying to work on this whenever I see fit to do so. Considering that I'm still in University and that there are plenty of women to meet and talk too, I should be able to pratice this skill here and there. Not going to laser focus on it, but definetly keep it in mind during my interactions.
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Post by nearly_takuan on Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:13 pm

Dan_Brodribb wrote:I'm not sure I agree. I think at some point you DO have to outright ask (at least in the culture, I'm from--North American "Mainstream"). Flirting does not necessarily lead to dating, as you and Azazel have already noted.

I almost posted something along these lines:
nearly_takuan nearly wrote: Heart  Heart Two signs your crush is interested in you! Heart  Heart
1. They ask you out
2. You ask them out, and they say yes
With sarcastic tacky blurbs attached to each point to explain why asking a person out is a possible indicator of interest. Sometimes I lack subtlety.

But then other folks had already covered why it's not really that straightforward, so I skipped it... until now. :twisted:

Dan_Brodribb wrote:One thing I wanted to point out is this stuff is hard for a lot of people. Most of us have varying skills of being able to read people and ability to let people know what we want without coming out and saying it.

The reason I mention this is because I get the impression the three of you are concerned that you are defective in some way for having trouble with this skill or that you're alone in the world because you have this trouble. It's not the case. It's normal to FEEL alone in the world when we're having trouble connecting, but it's worth remembering that others are struggling too--it's just not always visible. Most of us can improve with practice at it, but some of us are always going to have a little more or a little less to work with than others.

I guess I'd call myself defective in the sense that I seem to be a much slower learner in this area than I am almost anywhere else (ceramics and American football are runners-up), and asexuality + low libido only seems to add to that handicap (I don't have a sexual desire that needs to be signaled or communicated, and have no experience with or understanding of "escalation" etc.). I don't think I'm a special unique case, but I'm pretty sure I'm significantly behind the curve.

Dan_Brodribb wrote:I guess the next question I have is: Where are you in terms of your desire, time, and energy to work on this area of your life?

Job stuff seems to be finally falling into place; I don't know if any of the processes I'm currently in the middle of will actually amount to anything, but at this stage it does appear to be a safe bet that at least one will.

I think my current priorities are, in order, financial stability (which at this point literally just means nonzero income) > dating > better alignment of career path > ???

So, uh, pretty high up in terms of desire and time. Less sure about "energy" because I am at times a lethargic and depressed introvert, and one of the reasons I'm not so concerned with expanding the rest of my social life / friend-network is that I already feel pretty thinly stretched between all the college and high school buddies (women can be buddies too, right?) who want me involved in their side projects or weekend activities.
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