Shaking my head in dispare over this

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Post by C-Bass on Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:19 am

*Sigh*, why did it have to end like this?

So, Dr Matt Taylor; I am sickened by what happened to him. There is no other way to say it. I do as much as I can to be an ally to feminist and SJ movements, and when the detractors bring out their laundry list of complaints I do my best to give the benefit of the doubt and try to understand why these movements go thermonuclear.

I want you all to understand that, and I want the in these movements and specifically anyone involved in this flare up to know that what I'm about to do comes from someone who wants to support you with ever fiber of my being not devoted to chemistry and Vector Thrust;

Spoiler:
YOU. FUCKED. UP.

I understood the issues behind the catcalling video. I appreciate that people wanted that scum bag PUA who visited my country (Australia) gone, and I have no problem with people ruining his seminars.

But this makes me sick. This guy made a massive achievement in the field of space flight and people went thermonuclear over his shirt. Oh humans, why you so humans. Like I said I do my best to answer the critics of Tumblr feminists and SJWs, but this event is everyone of their criticisms made flesh. It is the worst possible face online activism could have show the world.

I have a message to everyone who was involved in the campaign against Dr Matt Taylor; I hope you realise that you have just proven your detractors correct when they say that SJWs over react to everything, and that you appreciate the long term damage this does to your aims.

I'm begging you, PICK YOUR BATTLES MORE CAREFULLY!

This kind of internet equivalent to the bombing of Dresden should be directed against people like Mark Cernovich, not some dude who walks out in an admittedly racy t shirt.

I wish I could be more coherent here but, fuck this makes me want to cry.
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Post by kleenestar on Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:03 am

I'm not sure I understand. Yes, it must have been very painful for Taylor to realize that he inadvertently sent a message counter to some of his beliefs. But would you rather he never realized and went on doing things he abhors?

I don't blame Taylor for the shirt, by the way. I blame the institutions he's a part of, that a) let him believe it would be an appropriate choice and b) that provide a hostile context for women which means the shirt can't just be a shirt.

I'll just add that as a woman in science, I'm not going to be terribly receptive to "it was just a shirt" arguments from people who aren't deeply familiar with the issues facing women in science either through significant research or first hand experience.
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Post by Guest on Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:11 am

I agree that it's a shame that, for some people, the shirt incident overshadowed what was an outstanding achievement and historical moment. I watched the ESA briefings, the XKCD, followed wee Philae on Twitter, watched a programme last night about the landings. Yeah, you got me: astronomy nerd here.

I can think all of that and still think the shirt was in bad taste. It is very easy for men to look at what seems, to them, an isolated incident, and accuse feminists of over-reacting. But it's not isolated, and that is kind of the point.

In other news, the shirt was also in bad taste because goddamn was that one ugly shirt.

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Post by C-Bass on Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:58 am

kleenestar wrote:Yes, it must have been very painful for Taylor to realize that he inadvertently sent a message counter to some of his beliefs. But would you rather he never realized and went on doing things he abhors?

embertine wrote:I can think all of that and still think the shirt was in bad taste.

All of which I understand but it didn't have to play out like this. I'm sorry to say it, but the soldiers are out of control and the officers need to step up and bring them back in line. Online activists cannot keep going thermonuclear like this forever or it will back fire on them; they have to chose their battles with more discretion for their own sake. I'm saying this as someone who wants to support them, but I can't in good conscience support what they've done here.
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Post by Mel on Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:58 am

C-Bass, what exactly did you see that you could characterize as "out of control" or "thermonuclear" behavior?

I hadn't heard anything about this, so I went and looked up the story. What I found is actually mainly people talking about how sad it is that Dr. Taylor was criticized/"attacked" (without providing any more specifics about this "attack" than you have).

Here's someone who looked through the tweets directed at him during the presentation: https://storify.com/cantfakethefunk/shirtstorm-dr-matt-taylor-and-the-truth She found only three or four that contained anything that could be considered a personal attack. At least one of those immediately had people pointing out that crossed the line even though they also didn't like the shirt. Most of the critical ones (which came from men and women) were simply stating that they had a problem in not particularly harsh terms, and many of those were still supportive of the mission. In fact, she found there were more people making harsh and personal attacks at the people expressing concerns as it happened than anyone was making at Dr. Taylor.

Am I missing something? Is this what you "can't support"--people calmly stating their discomfort with something?
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Post by BasedBuzzed on Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:24 am

They will keep going thermonuclear forever(just like everyone else), because that is the nature of clickbait, 140-character soundbites and crisis-to-crisis politics. Short of natural collapse(Twitter going the way of Myspace, alternate business models for websites), there really isn't a thing to be done about it.

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Post by kleenestar on Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:49 am

I could just as easily say that they will keep being perceived as going thermonuclear as long as so many men are unable to take even the mildest criticism without completely losing their shit. The sexism denialists and "it's just a shirt" crowd don't help either.

I can say that as a woman who mentors women in science, the worst effect of moments like this isn't Taylor wearing the shirt. The most off-putting possible response is silence from the larger community. The second worst is the "shut up and stop whining" message, even when it's phrased as being about clickbait or picking your battles. These are the things that send women to my office asking if they should drop out. So anything other than total silence will be perceived as "going thermonuclear," give me thermonuclear any day.
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Post by azazel on Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:26 am

It bears mentioning that the presentation of the discovery of the Higgs Boson using comic sans was creating a shit storm of epic proportions as well.

People rant against things they don't like on the internet; what's new.

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Post by BasedBuzzed on Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:28 am

Those two aren't mutually exclusive, especially with regards to how (un)consciously tribalistic people are. I can pull up articles on this with sensationalist headlines and very little content on how this is a symptom, not a cause plus a few surveys thrown in to show how micro-aggressions pile on instead of plastering it with screencaps of tweets(whoops, tone argument!), and ironic misandry subreddits where they make fun of him crying(private venting, why are you even surfing there in the first place if you're not looking to get outraged?), and you have(aside from firsthand experience) an entire right-wing depository of anti-feminist bigotry(tu quoque) and evidence of this being a GG-boosted manufactroversy to choose from(genetic fallacy).

It reminds me of this piece, in a way: http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/06/09/all-debates-are-bravery-debates/

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Post by reboot on Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:32 am

kleenestar wrote:I could just as easily say that they will keep being perceived as going thermonuclear as long as so many men are unable to take even the mildest criticism without completely losing their shit. The sexism denialists and "it's just a shirt" crowd don't help either.

I can say that as a woman who mentors women in science, the worst effect of moments like this isn't Taylor wearing the shirt. The most off-putting possible response is silence from the larger community. The second worst is the "shut up and stop whining" message, even when it's phrased as being about clickbait or picking your battles. These are the things that send women to my office asking if they should drop out. So anything other than total silence will be perceived as "going thermonuclear," give me thermonuclear any day.

I agree. The first woman who commented is an astrophysicist, if I remember correctly, and if I had to hazard a guess, she has had it up to *here* with people who do not even think twice about wearing such images to a high profile broadcast to a worldwide audience. He woke up that morning, looked at his shirts and grabbed that one without thinking twice. He arrived at work and not a single person said, "You know what, you might want to change." The women working in such an environment are tired of it, especially (another guess on my part) because "He is brilliant! Do not rock the boat." and "The findings are so important, how can you complain about X?" probably gets trotted out frequently.

Also, as Mel's link shows, that is not "thermonuclear", it is criticism, but not extreme. What happens to Anita Sarkeesian when she posts a video is thermonuclear.
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Post by SadisticToaster on Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:08 pm

reboot wrote:   He woke up that morning, looked at his shirts and grabbed that one without thinking twice.

Nah, apparently he chose The Shirt on purpose as a shout-out to the friend who made it for him.

reboot wrote: The women working in such an environment are tired of it, especially (another guess on my part) because "He is brilliant! Do not rock the boat." and "The findings are so important, how can you complain about X?" probably gets trotted out frequently.
ar.

There is a lot of guess work here - I'd be interested in seeing what the women he works with say about this.

Have you actually seen the pics, by the way? I've seen a great many Tank Girl tattoos that look way more suggestive and offensive then this.

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Post by reboot on Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:35 pm

Of course I have seen the picture. I generally do not comment on things I have never seen. It was not particularly racy (rather ugly though), but also not particularly appropriate for the situation. Tell you one thing, he worked for my organization there is no way that shirt would make it in front of a camera.

Many of the people speaking out against the shirt also work in his field, such as Katie Mack, one of the first to comment on it. I also base my guesses on the experiences of a friend who is an astronomer, albeit in the US not with EAS. I, personally, have never worked on his team, but neither has any of us commenting here.

EDIT: I did miss the why he wore the shirt, but it does not invalidate my point that it did not cross his mind that maybe it was not appropriate for a worldwide broadcast.
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Post by UristMcBunny on Mon Nov 17, 2014 5:10 pm

I said it to others IRL at the time and I'll say it again. There is a big difference between wearing a shirt like that with friends and wearing it when you are representing your employer and - more than that, given that this is about space science - representing an entire field of science and a whole career path.

I own a Nirvana T-shirt that has the words "fudge-packing crack smoking satan worshipping mother fucker" on it. I often wear it around the house. If I ever wore it to work - even on a dress-down day when everyone comes to work in their casual clothes - I would be sent home and probably given a disciplinary on the spot. If I wore it to any kind of work-related context where I was facing customers or liaising with the public I would probably be fired on the spot for gross incompetence.

The shirt Dr Taylor wore has a slightly different context, but still one worth keeping in mind. When you're facing the public in relation to your work you are not facing them as yourself. You are there to represent at minimum your employer. In the case of a STEM field revolving around the space sciences and space flight, you're also representing the entire industry. And STEM has a big problem when it comes to women, in spite of recent efforts to change that. STEM fields are still often very hostile to women, and get stereotyped with all the worst extremes of what the word nerd used to mean before geek culture became fashionable. I make absolutely no judgements about Dr Taylor as a person - if anything, his heartfelt apology shows him to be a sensitive and decent person who made a genuine mistake and nothing more - but his clothing choice that day sent a message that reinforced all the negative stereotypes of his field.

Honestly, my judgement was more against his supervisors and the other people involved up the chain who had more of a responsibility to check the message their staff sent and who let his shirt pass without a comment. And actually, that's the main critique I saw everywhere I saw this discussed - not critiques of his character or person, so much as amazement and disappointment that no one in charge saw this and thought it was a bad idea.

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Post by reboot on Mon Nov 17, 2014 5:25 pm

UristMcBunny wrote:....
Honestly, my judgement was more against his supervisors and the other people involved up the chain who had more of a responsibility to check the message their staff sent and who let his shirt pass without a comment.  And actually, that's the main critique I saw everywhere I saw this discussed - not critiques of his character or person, so much as amazement and disappointment that no one in charge saw this and thought it was a bad idea.

This was my biggest critique as well. To me he seems like a decent guy who had a bit of a judgment lapse and honestly feels really bad about it. The failing was in his organization and its culture that allowed him to get anywhere near a camera wearing that. I am on the fence about day to day wear. I would probably send him home if he wore it in my office (clients, both men and women, would be made extremely uncomfortable by it), but could maybe see it being OK in other workplaces.
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Post by kleenestar on Mon Nov 17, 2014 5:43 pm

Yeah, I have no problem with the shirt per se - but if I let someone come into my lab wearing that shirt, given how women are treated in STEM fields and in computer science specifically, I'd be sending a clear negative signal to the women in my lab. I'd rather have one guy change his shirt than have my lab develop a reputation as a place where women aren't actually welcome.

I wish STEM were a field where someone could wear a shirt like that without sending all kinds of unintended messages, but right now it's not.
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Post by helbling on Mon Nov 17, 2014 5:44 pm

I have seen no end of people from my ex-workplace (to give you a taste of their general standard of behaviour, we worked across the street from a college, and they used to watch the female students going in and shout out scores out of 10 to rate their 'fuckability'. Yay, being the only female in a department and being expected to be 'one of the guys'>_<) on Facebook tearing at their hair in much the same manner you have done with this post.

I have seen exactly zero - that is NONE WHATSOEVER - posts attacking Taylor. And I'm friends mostly with people who occupy that overlap in a Venn diagram between 'scientists' (one of whom has appeared on quite a lot of news channels giving her opinion in relation to this) and what MRAs would dub 'frothing SJWs'. The worst I have seen is a 'oh FFS, really?! I mean...really?!' sort of exasperated comment.

I really ought to congratulate whichever misogynistic group is behind this, I really ought to, because they've managed to spread the word far and wide that man-hating feminists have been sending death threats to this man on par with what happened with Quinn et al and Gamergate, and there has resultantly been an impressive backlash, but the only issue is that it never bloody happened in the first place.

Eventually, one of the (male) scientists posted a status which seems to sum up the general feeling in the scientific community (that is, the people who are ACTUALLY involved and ACTUALLY have been working on this) brilliantly, and I think it did it so well, I'm going to repost here:

"So, Matt Taylor's shirt:

I really didn't care. Whatever, it was a tacky shirt, I didn't lose a lot of sleep over it, and I'm still not.

That said, I *do* get the objection. Dr. Taylor was, if only for a day, a global representative of Cool Stuff You Can Do If You Do Science, and in a time when everyone's pushing for more women in STEM, to be that gobal representative in a bit of a pin-up-girl shirt is a misfire (just a misfire, mind; at worst, he was guilty of thoughtlessness, at a time in his life when he could be forgiven for being a bit distracted). And, to be honest, I think he'd have got away with that if he hadn't *also* been making jokes about Rosetta being "sexy."

So, whatever. It's a little problematic, worse things happen at sea, YMMV.

-----

But I *do* want to talk about the "terrifying feminist lynch mob." For reference, a physicist called MA Melby recently screencapped and storified the horrifying excoriation (TRIGGER WARNING: slightly stern language and some eye-rolling).

https://storify.com/…/shirtstorm-dr-matt-taylor-and-the-tru…

"Can you tell Matt Taylor not to wear that shirt and make comments about Rosetta's sex life?" asks Adam Novak. Chilling.

"What a lost opportunity to encourage girls into science," adds HPC Programmer. Dr. Taylor, I'm truly sorry for the way the progressive political world has treated you.

And then he changed shirts, and later apologised. He cried - not, as near as I can tell, out of terror and trauma, but because he was genuinely upset that he may have caused harm.

And then it was over. In, like, less than a day.

Seriously: if you want to see the hateful feminazis at work, I guess maybe search "Matt Taylor" on twitter. Here, I've done it for you:

https://twitter.com/search?q=matt%20taylor&src=typd

You may have to hunt, since more than 90% of references to his name are just people being angry about the people who were angry, and the other 10% is basically about Rosetta; almost no-one's still actually complaining about the shirt.

-----

Then you can look up ‪#‎shirtstorm‬ and ‪#‎shirtgate‬ and see the measured, reasonable response the anti-feminist brigade has on this.

So perhaps we don't need to read Telegraph think pieces by, of all fucking people, Boris Fucking Johnson, and go on about how dangerous the feminist twitter mob is.

Perhaps we can all just let it go."

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Post by kath on Mon Nov 17, 2014 5:56 pm

Also, who are the "officers" who would make the "soldiers step in line"?
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Post by UristMcBunny on Mon Nov 17, 2014 5:58 pm

(Shhhh kath, people aren't supposed to know about the hivemind's Correctional Officers. FWIW, they were at a conference on harassment-in-the-hivemind at the time.)

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Post by SadisticToaster on Mon Nov 17, 2014 5:59 pm

reboot wrote:Of course I have seen the picture. I generally do not comment on things I have never seen.

No offence intended : just wondering.
reboot wrote:
It was not particularly racy (rather ugly though), but also not particularly appropriate for the situation. Tell you one thing, he worked for my organization there is no way that shirt would make it in front of a camera.

And I work for a bank, and it wouldn't pass muster here either. It's not a pretty shirt, or a professional shirt - but is it a misogynist shirt?

reboot wrote:
Many of the people speaking out against the shirt also work in his field, such as Katie Mack, one of the first to comment on it. I also base my guesses on the experiences of a friend who is an astronomer, albeit in the US not with EAS.

These women are at the top of their field, and working in a egalitarian country : my guess is that they'd be offended by the idea that they weren't able or willing to object to HR or to him if they didn't like it.

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Post by kleenestar on Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:09 pm

SadisticToaster wrote:is it a misogynist shirt?

That's a meaningless and unhelpful question. The question is, "When speaking as a public representative of a field which has significant structural and institutional problems with women, what is the message the shirt sends?"

SadisticToaster wrote:These women are at the top of their field, and working in a egalitarian country : my guess is that they'd be offended by the idea that they weren't able or willing to object to HR or to him if they didn't like it.

Your guess is wrong.

I am a woman at the top of her STEM field working in an egalitarian country. My female students and colleagues are the same. We all know the rules; if we object to the shirt directly, we risk being labeled "shrill" or "humorless" or generally exposing ourselves to the contempt of our colleagues. And if no one at the institutional level said anything about the shirt and we try to bring it up, then we know we're going to get even worse treatment if we try to make it official. (And the latter is why silence about the shirt is deeply damaging - because it says "This institution will not take my concerns seriously if I try to raise any issues related to gender.")
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Post by nearly_takuan on Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:17 pm

So far I've seen several requests for links/references/evidence here, and only three links—provided by Mel and helbling in support of their points. I only did some surface-level Googling (don't care enough to do more) but it lines up with what they've said.

I think I have a fairly low threshold for what sorts of tenuous criticisms of feminism I'm willing to take seriously or even defend to some extent, but I'm having trouble buying the premise of this thread.
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Post by kath on Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:24 pm

Sadistic Toaster, in the tweets, one of the women who was there spoke up to someone at the ESA and was told she should talk Taylor directly, and she said she didn't feel comfortable doing that: https://twitter.com/astrojohnjohn/status/532706711401164801
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Post by SadisticToaster on Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:26 pm

kleenestar wrote:
SadisticToaster wrote:is it a misogynist shirt?

That's a meaningless and unhelpful question. The question is, "When speaking as a public representative of a field which has significant structural and institutional problems with women, what is the message the shirt sends?"

Is it? The inital flap was people complaining that he was wearing a misogynist T-shirt.


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Post by Mel on Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:27 pm

Also, I don't see what it matters whether his direct colleagues would have spoken up or wanted to. He wasn't wearing this shirt just with his colleagues. He was wearing it on a public broadcast reaching hundreds of millions of people. Why shouldn't their opinion about the impression he's giving matter?

I mean, seriously, this whole thread started with the suggestion that "feminism" should somehow police random people making comments from personal accounts on twitter... but it's unfair for anyone to criticize a guy speaking on a major network in a professional capacity unless they work with him?
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Post by Mel on Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:28 pm

SadisticToaster wrote:

Is it? The inital flap was people complaining that he was wearing a misogynist T-shirt.


Was it? Do you have any actual sources for this "initial flap" or are you just making assumptions based on the backlash?
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