Shaking my head in dispare over this

Page 3 of 4 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Go down

Shaking my head in dispare over this - Page 3 Empty Re: Shaking my head in dispare over this

Post by Guest on Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:43 pm

C-Bass wrote:That is the key point I'm making here; online feminist and social justice movements aren't considering the long term effects of their campaigns, namely how they can be turned against them. I'm reminded of the 'body count' system the US army used in Vietnam to gauge success, and the way the viet cong and NVA turned it against them by removing as many of their dead from the battle field as possible.

I... don't understand the point here. There WAS NO CAMPAIGN. The fact that anyone spoke at all was treated as a campaign, and blown up as a travesty and a sin and, no joke, "something from the show trials of Stalin". The only way to have our enemies turn things against us is to never do anything or say anything, and I'm sorry, I'm not okay with that.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Shaking my head in dispare over this - Page 3 Empty Re: Shaking my head in dispare over this

Post by BasedBuzzed on Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:59 pm

Update! Folks raised money to buy the shirt dude an 18k compensation watch, which is pretty ridiculous, but vultures like this are just plain distasteful: https://storify.com/public/templates/card/index.html?src=//storify.com/RipplesOfDoubt/conversation-with-mayainamura

_________________
Pompeii, VIII.2 (in the basilica); 1904: "O walls, you have held up so much tedious graffiti that I am amazed that you have not already collapsed in ruin."
BasedBuzzed
BasedBuzzed

Posts : 811
Reputation : 267
Join date : 2014-10-01

Back to top Go down

Shaking my head in dispare over this - Page 3 Empty Re: Shaking my head in dispare over this

Post by UristMcBunny on Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:01 pm

I think you might still be confusing what happened here. There was no Grand Meeting of the Feminists where a plan was made to campaign bout this issue, with everyone heading off and tweeting according to plan. A large number of individuals - many of them feminists- felt upset/concerned/disappointed by a small but culturall and contextually significant thing and tweeted about it, much in the same way as people tweet en masse how disappointed they are when the star player on their footie team plays like shit. There was no campaign or plan because there was nothing to campaign bout.

_________________
Some of you will know me as Bunny from the old forums.
UristMcBunny
UristMcBunny
Moderator of "Romantic and Sexual Relationships"

Posts : 371
Reputation : 116
Join date : 2014-09-24

http://uristmcdorf.tumblr.com/

Back to top Go down

Shaking my head in dispare over this - Page 3 Empty Re: Shaking my head in dispare over this

Post by kleenestar on Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:02 pm

I actually find the idea of a "compensation watch" really horrifying, and I think it deserves loud and vocal public criticism.
kleenestar
kleenestar

Posts : 289
Reputation : 204
Join date : 2014-10-01

Back to top Go down

Shaking my head in dispare over this - Page 3 Empty Re: Shaking my head in dispare over this

Post by reboot on Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:02 pm

ElizaJane wrote:
C-Bass wrote:That is the key point I'm making here; online feminist and social justice movements aren't considering the long term effects of their campaigns, namely how they can be turned against them. I'm reminded of the 'body count' system the US army used in Vietnam to gauge success, and the way the viet cong and NVA turned it against them by removing as many of their dead from the battle field as possible.

I... don't understand the point here.  There WAS NO CAMPAIGN.  The fact that anyone spoke at all was treated as a campaign, and blown up as a travesty and a sin and, no joke, "something from the show trials of Stalin".  The only way to have our enemies turn things against us is to never do anything or say anything, and I'm sorry, I'm not okay with that.

And the people who spun it up already had a bone to pick with feminists so speaking out or staying silent would have made no difference to them. However, individuals (and it was all individuals -no organized campaign) staying silent would have let a problematic event pass unremarked and continue to be considered acceptable. Overall, I think pissing off people who already hate you worth it to change things. I guarantee you that after this people (or their employers) will think twice before wearing questionable couture when representing their institutions to the media.

And this is a good thing.
reboot
reboot
Moderator of "Other Relationships" and "Gender, Identity and Society"

Posts : 2514
Reputation : 1005
Join date : 2014-09-24

Back to top Go down

Shaking my head in dispare over this - Page 3 Empty Re: Shaking my head in dispare over this

Post by BasedBuzzed on Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:10 pm

kleenestar wrote:I actually find the idea of a "compensation watch" really horrifying, and I think it deserves loud and vocal public criticism.

Yeah, it puts the dude as a pawn in an awkward game of tug-o-war and is overkill for the storm in a teacup. Still, "you-must-donate-to-cause-X or else kafkatrap" is just boorish. I hope he'll donate to a good cause that is ideologically neutral, and we'll see if the Storify dudette is classy about it.

_________________
Pompeii, VIII.2 (in the basilica); 1904: "O walls, you have held up so much tedious graffiti that I am amazed that you have not already collapsed in ruin."
BasedBuzzed
BasedBuzzed

Posts : 811
Reputation : 267
Join date : 2014-10-01

Back to top Go down

Shaking my head in dispare over this - Page 3 Empty Re: Shaking my head in dispare over this

Post by reboot on Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:31 pm

BasedBuzzed wrote:
kleenestar wrote:I actually find the idea of a "compensation watch" really horrifying, and I think it deserves loud and vocal public criticism.

Yeah, it puts the dude as a pawn in an awkward game of tug-o-war and is overkill for the storm in a teacup. Still, "you-must-donate-to-cause-X or else kafkatrap" is just boorish. I hope he'll donate to a good cause that is ideologically neutral, and we'll see if the Storify dudette is classy about it.

The person who needs to be classy in this case is him. The classy thing to do would be to refuse to accept the gift. You should not be compensated when you thoughtlessly did something wrong. Luckily, he knows he did something wrong and seems like a stand up guy, so hopefully he will ask that the money be returned to the donors.
reboot
reboot
Moderator of "Other Relationships" and "Gender, Identity and Society"

Posts : 2514
Reputation : 1005
Join date : 2014-09-24

Back to top Go down

Shaking my head in dispare over this - Page 3 Empty Re: Shaking my head in dispare over this

Post by username_6916 on Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:38 pm

Werel wrote:I'm reminded of an experience from my high school days: four senior boys were best friends. To celebrate their friendship, they bought matching team-style t-shirts, with numbers on the back and all that, and wore them to school. Problem: the "team name" chosen for the shirts was "NIGZ." All of the boys were white.

In return for not being suspended or expelled, they made formal public apologies to the entire school community during an assembly convened specifically to discuss the shirts. Students had the chance to address the boys with their thoughts about the shirts, and some students did speculate on the boys' motives and what this decision said about their personalities. All of the offending boys became teary during this assembly. Some cried openly. All seemed genuinely, deeply contrite, and spoke insightfully about why they had thought the shirts were funny and cool, and the reasons they now realized the shirt choice was a terrible and hurtful one. Then life continued pretty much as normal.

It seems ludicrous to imagine that these boys were mistreated. It seems ludicrous to imagine a serious backlash against the school administration for Shaming these Poor Innocent Boys in a schoolwide assembly. It seems ludicrous to imagine anyone standing up and saying "but these guys are great athletes/students/artists/friends first and foremost, cut them some slack!" It seems ludicrous to imagine anyone saying (as they have for Matt Taylor) "But it was for his/their friend(s)! A display of friendship! We oughtn't shit on something so lovely as a testament to friendship!" It seems ludicrous to imagine that these boys weren't improved and educated by this experience, as they themselves said they were.

Basically, I have no idea why anyone has a problem with telling somebody "yo, bonehead move," the person in question being like "oh damn, that was a bonehead move, sorry" and everyone going on their merry way armed with better clothing-decision-making skills.

Coming from the prospective of "public schools are an arm of the Government", this seems like a deeply inappropiate thing to do. It would violate the student's first amendment rights. And while I might disagree with the boys actions in this place, and would agree that it is in fact 'boneheaded' in this instance, I would say that subjecting them to that is in fact mistreatment.




Overall, I think pissing off people who already hate you worth it to change things. I guarantee you that after this people (or their employers) will think twice before wearing questionable couture when representing their institutions to the media.

And this is a good thing.

Is it?

I'm not entirely sure I want a return to the suits, ties and professional appearance of 1960's NASA. We risk driving away people like the long-haired hippie who figured out how to put a square filter in a round hole during the Apollo Missions. Not to mention that chances are, if a woman was criticized for her 'unprofessional appearance' in this context, the very same people who are condemning Taylor would be defending her. More importantly, we might be creating a culture where even important things are self-censored for the fear of offending someone important. Things like "The O-rings on the SRBs get brittle in the cold".




username_6916

Posts : 49
Reputation : 3
Join date : 2014-11-06

Back to top Go down

Shaking my head in dispare over this - Page 3 Empty Re: Shaking my head in dispare over this

Post by reboot on Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:43 pm

MOD

Please everyone, if you are jumping in now, go back and read the entire thread plus supplementary information provided by Mel. This discussion has been going in circles for days, mostly because people are not reading what others have already said. If it keeps going like this, the thread will be locked.
/MOD

Username, no one is arguing he needed a tie. He just needed a camera appropriate shirt. Same shirt would be fine, but not with that pattern.
reboot
reboot
Moderator of "Other Relationships" and "Gender, Identity and Society"

Posts : 2514
Reputation : 1005
Join date : 2014-09-24

Back to top Go down

Shaking my head in dispare over this - Page 3 Empty Re: Shaking my head in dispare over this

Post by Mel on Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:46 pm

username_6916 wrote:Not to mention that chances are, if a woman was criticized for her 'unprofessional appearance' in this context, the very same people who are condemning Taylor would be defending her.

I've seen this claim before, and I find it absurd. I do actually think that if a woman scientist did a presentation on TV while dressed like the women on Taylor's shirt were, or otherwise in very sexualized way, many of the same people would be saying, "This is sending women the wrong message about their role in this field." They would have stated it in different ways, because it would be a different problem, given that in one case we have illustrated women who are objects being used by a man, and in the other case we have an actual conscious being who is making a choice about what she herself wears (a distinction many critics of the outcry seem to have trouble understanding, given the comparisons I've seen to "why aren't these people complaining about Kim Kardashian" *rolls eyes*), but I have trouble imagining it getting a pass.

If you think feminists never criticize the behavior of fellow women, you obviously don't pay much attention to actual feminists.
Mel
Mel
Roving Moderator

Posts : 317
Reputation : 182
Join date : 2014-09-24

Back to top Go down

Shaking my head in dispare over this - Page 3 Empty Re: Shaking my head in dispare over this

Post by Werel on Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:52 pm

username_6916 wrote:
Werel wrote:snip

Coming from the prospective of "public schools are an arm of the Government", this seems like a deeply inappropiate thing to do. It would violate the student's first amendment rights.

Didn't go to a public school.  Wink

Also, first amendment rights? Dude, you can't wear certain colors to a lot of American public schools. Not saying that's okay, or indicative of anything except some real shitty social circumstances, but... let's not get confused about what kinds of "rights" public school students have. If you're gonna get indignant about dress codes, you might start with the ones which are a bit more fraught than "you can't put the N-word on your shirt."

And while I might disagree with the boys actions in this place, and would agree that it is in fact 'boneheaded' in this instance, I would say that subjecting them to that is in fact mistreatment.

Curious what you perceive them as having been "subjected to" which constituted mistreatment-- the discomfort of making an apology? The unpleasant feeling of standing up before a large group and saying "I was wrong"? Hearing "I now question your decision-making skills after you made this decision"? I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the concept that simply hearing about how your choices hurt people, and apologizing for it in public, is beyond the pale of what people should be put through.
Werel
Werel
Moderator of "Meeting People and Dating Advice"

Posts : 1961
Reputation : 1176
Join date : 2014-09-25

Back to top Go down

Shaking my head in dispare over this - Page 3 Empty Re: Shaking my head in dispare over this

Post by reboot on Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:23 pm

[quote="Werel"]
username_6916 wrote:
And while I might disagree with the boys actions in this place, and would agree that it is in fact 'boneheaded' in this instance, I would say that subjecting them to that is in fact mistreatment.

Curious what you perceive them as having been "subjected to" which constituted mistreatment-- the discomfort of making an apology? The unpleasant feeling of standing up before a large group and saying "I was wrong"? Hearing "I now question your decision-making skills after you made this decision"? I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the concept that simply hearing about how your choices hurt people, and apologizing for it in public, is beyond the pale of what people should be put through.

I was wondering the same. Since when is apologizing for what you did wrong or hearing people say you did something wrong considered mistreatment?
reboot
reboot
Moderator of "Other Relationships" and "Gender, Identity and Society"

Posts : 2514
Reputation : 1005
Join date : 2014-09-24

Back to top Go down

Shaking my head in dispare over this - Page 3 Empty Re: Shaking my head in dispare over this

Post by username_6916 on Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:02 pm


Curious what you perceive them as having been "subjected to" which constituted mistreatment-- the discomfort of making an apology? The unpleasant feeling of standing up before a large group and saying "I was wrong"? Hearing "I now question your decision-making skills after you made this decision"? I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the concept that simply hearing about how your choices hurt people, and apologizing for it in public, is beyond the pale of what people should be put through.

Because it requires you to admit you are wrong, rather or not you think you are that you are. And, that's the thing: Reasonable people can and will disagree about what is wrong. And in any case, a forced confession is always questionable.

username_6916

Posts : 49
Reputation : 3
Join date : 2014-11-06

Back to top Go down

Shaking my head in dispare over this - Page 3 Empty Re: Shaking my head in dispare over this

Post by azazel on Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:05 pm

reboot wrote:Username, no one is arguing he needed a tie. He just needed a camera appropriate shirt. Same shirt would be fine, but not with that pattern.

Fuck, I thought you all agreed he should've worn something professional :/

I hatehatehate it that science needs to appeal to the lowest denominator.
It gives people who don't understand it the feeling they could and even should understand it, leading to giant clusterfucks.

Other authority figures wouldn't be caught dead on camera with such a shirt, even without pattern.


Last edited by azazel on Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

azazel

Posts : 136
Reputation : 37
Join date : 2014-10-01

Back to top Go down

Shaking my head in dispare over this - Page 3 Empty Re: Shaking my head in dispare over this

Post by fakely mctest on Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:06 pm

Werel wrote:
username_6916 wrote:
Werel wrote:snip

Coming from the prospective of "public schools are an arm of the Government", this seems like a deeply inappropiate thing to do. It would violate the student's first amendment rights.

Didn't go to a public school.  Wink

Also, first amendment rights? Dude, you can't wear certain colors to a lot of American public schools. Not saying that's okay, or indicative of anything except some real shitty social circumstances, but... let's not get confused about what kinds of "rights" public school students have. If you're gonna get indignant about dress codes, you might start with the ones which are a bit more fraught than "you can't put the N-word on your shirt."

Ducking in to add (as someone who DID go to public schools, which were very large, very diverse, and also quite academically rigorous), when you're talking about minors who are the responsibility of schools in the system it's not just First Amendment stuff that's in play.  Schools also act in loco parentis, particularly as it relates to potentially incendiary expression.  I'd class racial slurs in that category for sure.

_________________
Please let it be an empty shoebox with a note saying “LOL Just kidding, I love cats, sorry I worried anyone. xoxox E. Schrödinger”
fakely mctest
fakely mctest
General Oversight Moderator

Posts : 298
Reputation : 74
Join date : 2014-09-24

Back to top Go down

Shaking my head in dispare over this - Page 3 Empty Re: Shaking my head in dispare over this

Post by kleenestar on Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:08 pm

azazel wrote:
reboot wrote:Username, no one is arguing he needed a tie. He just needed a camera appropriate shirt. Same shirt would be fine, but not with that pattern.

Fuck, I thought you all agreed he should've worn something professional :/

I hatehatehate it that science needs to appeal to the lowest denominator.
It gives people who don't understand it the feeling they should understand it, leading to giant clusterfucks.

Other authority figures wouldn't be caught dead on camera with such a shirt, even without pattern.

I can tell you that when I work with first-generation college students, it makes a huge difference for them to see scientists who wear clothes that aren't professionally class-coded. There's also some great research on the same subject; it turns out that when you don't just think of scientists as wearing lab coats and business suits, you get a much more diverse set of kids thinking they can be scientists. I'm willing to accept some amount of clusterfuckery in the service of making science accessible to kids who couldn't possibly imagine themselves wearing a suit!
kleenestar
kleenestar

Posts : 289
Reputation : 204
Join date : 2014-10-01

Back to top Go down

Shaking my head in dispare over this - Page 3 Empty Re: Shaking my head in dispare over this

Post by reboot on Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:09 pm

azazel wrote:
reboot wrote:Username, no one is arguing he needed a tie. He just needed a camera appropriate shirt. Same shirt would be fine, but not with that pattern.

Fuck, I thought you all agreed he should've worn something professional :/

I hatehatehate it that science needs to appeal to the lowest denominator.
It gives people who don't understand it the feeling they should understand it, leading to giant clusterfucks.

Other authority figures wouldn't be caught dead on camera with such a shirt, even without pattern.

Personally *I* would prefer professional BUT I do not think his wardrobe should be a topic if he happened to go with an inoffensive, yet casual, shirt. I too think the "whacky scientist" image has been done to death!
reboot
reboot
Moderator of "Other Relationships" and "Gender, Identity and Society"

Posts : 2514
Reputation : 1005
Join date : 2014-09-24

Back to top Go down

Shaking my head in dispare over this - Page 3 Empty Re: Shaking my head in dispare over this

Post by azazel on Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:20 pm

kleenestar wrote:I can tell you that when I work with first-generation college students, it makes a huge difference for them to see scientists who wear clothes that aren't professionally class-coded. There's also some great research on the same subject; it turns out that when you don't just think of scientists as wearing lab coats and business suits, you get a much more diverse set of kids thinking they can be scientists. I'm willing to accept some amount of clusterfuckery in the service of making science accessible to kids who couldn't possibly imagine themselves wearing a suit!

I have opinions about this.

CSI effect in courts of law, global warning denialism, vaccines cause autism, personally I think it's all linked to Everyone Is A Scientist and Everyone Is A Doctor (Using Google Is Totally The Same As Learning Medicine For Years), and those all do quite a lot of damage.

But since it's off topic I'll shut up about this, also because it will be impossible to quantify how bad those effects are vs. how well it enhances diversity in science.

azazel

Posts : 136
Reputation : 37
Join date : 2014-10-01

Back to top Go down

Shaking my head in dispare over this - Page 3 Empty Re: Shaking my head in dispare over this

Post by kleenestar on Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:28 pm

Happy to discuss in another thread! As a scientist I have rather different attributions for the Everyone Is A Scientist problem. Razz
kleenestar
kleenestar

Posts : 289
Reputation : 204
Join date : 2014-10-01

Back to top Go down

Shaking my head in dispare over this - Page 3 Empty Re: Shaking my head in dispare over this

Post by reboot on Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:35 pm

username_6916 wrote:

Curious what you perceive them as having been "subjected to" which constituted mistreatment-- the discomfort of making an apology? The unpleasant feeling of standing up before a large group and saying "I was wrong"? Hearing "I now question your decision-making skills after you made this decision"? I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the concept that simply hearing about how your choices hurt people, and apologizing for it in public, is beyond the pale of what people should be put through.

Because it requires you to admit you are wrong, rather or not you think you are that you are. And, that's the thing: Reasonable people can and will disagree about what is wrong. And in any case, a forced confession is always questionable.

So do you believe allocution as a part of a plea bargain by a defendant is "wrong"? I mean can we not just disagree about the crimes being wrong?

For Werel's example, the school acts as the parent while the kids are on its grounds. Part of a parent's role is to correct behavior that violates the rules of the house and attempt to instruct the child in acceptable behavior. Do you feel having a child admit that they broke the rules and making them explain why they did it is wrong? Or should parents (true or in loco) just shrug and agree to disagree when rules are broken?
reboot
reboot
Moderator of "Other Relationships" and "Gender, Identity and Society"

Posts : 2514
Reputation : 1005
Join date : 2014-09-24

Back to top Go down

Shaking my head in dispare over this - Page 3 Empty Re: Shaking my head in dispare over this

Post by kleenestar on Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:39 pm

Thank you reboot! Maybe this is just one of those moments where I'm reminded how our "secular" culture is actually Christian, but the point of an apology is not about how the person making it feels or what they believe. It's about repairing the harm that's been done to a community. You can apologize for breaking the rules and harming others whether or not you believe what you did was inherently wrong, unless of course you are an Internet Vulcan who believes that he should be the sole objective arbiter of how other people ought to feel.
kleenestar
kleenestar

Posts : 289
Reputation : 204
Join date : 2014-10-01

Back to top Go down

Shaking my head in dispare over this - Page 3 Empty Re: Shaking my head in dispare over this

Post by The Wisp on Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:46 pm

kleenestar wrote:Thank you reboot! Maybe this is just one of those moments where I'm reminded how our "secular" culture is actually Christian, but the point of an apology is not about how the person making it feels or what they believe. It's about repairing the harm that's been done to a community. You can apologize for breaking the rules and harming others whether or not you believe what you did was inherently wrong, unless of course you are an Internet Vulcan who believes that he should be the sole objective arbiter of how other people ought to feel.
 
These strike me as just different interpretations of what an apology is. It's not inherently Christian, just happens to be from Christianity. (As an aside, I get the feeling by your definition, no society could ever be secular)

Honestly, if somebody harmed me, and I got a forced response and it was clear they didn't think they were in the wrong, that wouldn't repair any of the damage in my book.
The Wisp
The Wisp

Posts : 896
Reputation : 198
Join date : 2014-10-01

Back to top Go down

Shaking my head in dispare over this - Page 3 Empty Re: Shaking my head in dispare over this

Post by reboot on Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:49 pm

kleenestar wrote:Thank you reboot! Maybe this is just one of those moments where I'm reminded how our "secular" culture is actually Christian, but the point of an apology is not about how the person making it feels or what they believe. It's about repairing the harm that's been done to a community. You can apologize for breaking the rules and harming others whether or not you believe what you did was inherently wrong, unless of course you are an Internet Vulcan who believes that he should be the sole objective arbiter of how other people ought to feel.

And confession is not just a Christian thing. It is very common in many other cultures, especially at the local/tribal level.
reboot
reboot
Moderator of "Other Relationships" and "Gender, Identity and Society"

Posts : 2514
Reputation : 1005
Join date : 2014-09-24

Back to top Go down

Shaking my head in dispare over this - Page 3 Empty Re: Shaking my head in dispare over this

Post by kleenestar on Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:49 pm

Ah, but I didn't say it would repair the damage between you and them - it would repair the damage done by the community that stood by and let this person do harm, by showing you that the community will step in and stand by you. Even in the Jewish model, you can't atone for wrongs you've done to someone else unless you acknowledge that you were wrong, publicly admit it, and make right what you can ... but you and the person who wronged you aren't the only stakeholders, and I think that bystanders, observers, and the larger community also have an obligation to set things right.

(Er, but probably legit on the Christian thing from both of you.)
kleenestar
kleenestar

Posts : 289
Reputation : 204
Join date : 2014-10-01

Back to top Go down

Shaking my head in dispare over this - Page 3 Empty Re: Shaking my head in dispare over this

Post by nearly_takuan on Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:59 pm

So, agnostic-atheist with Christian upbringing here. Not sure to what extent my parents would agree with me on all of what I'm about to say, but it's fair to say they've at least had a strong influence on my perception of morality, propriety, etc. (Yup, discarding a belief system doesn't mean trading in everything else that came with it.)

I try to use words like "sorry" somewhat carefully. The fundamental rule is that I want to be able to communicate my intent clearly with such words—if I use it sincerely, I don't want people to doubt that*. So I have to mean it. Which means that in the context of talking to someone I've hurt, the following conditions must be satisfied before I will use the word "sorry":

  • I regret the action, or a consequence of that action.
  • I have at least some understanding of what it is I'm sorry for.
  • I fully intend to avoid causing the same harm in the future.

This goes for mistakes, errors of judgment, and malicious acts, but also cases where I still believe I did the "right" thing (or more likely just didn't do the "wrong" thing) but understand that there was a cost to someone else. I can feel remorseful about the cost to another human being, and sympathize with their negative experience as a consequence of my action, without having to "admit I was wrong".

In a lot of ways, my model is a lot more lenient than, say, kleenestar's. I don't require myself to have first demonstrated repentance or made reparations; I don't even really include a promise to make reparations in the future, or avoid a repeat of the action.

As kleenestar said, it's not about me, it's about the other person's feelings, and the only way saying I'm sorry can possibly make them feel better is if they know that it means something when I say it. Phrasing is also important to this end: "I'm sorry you feel that way" is kind of an infamously insincere turn of phrase—it carries an implication that the listener has chosen to make a victim of themselves. But "I'm sorry that I made you {sad, angry, etc}" is, I think, a valid apology: even if I'd make the same exact choices in a do-over (though realistically that's never been the case either), the important thing to me is to show understanding of what the harm was and how it happened, to claim responsibility for the negative consequence, and to express remorse or sympathy.

None of this means I have to use the word sparingly; I've had weeks where I spoke or typed "sorry" practically daily. I've also gone consecutive months without using the word at all, and I feel pretty good when that happens.

ETA: I do think Christianity-at-large and Western culture have probably historically put more emphasis on the explaining, excusing, and confessing aspects, though. "Sorry" comes from the same roots as "sorrow", and was originally meant to express grief, regret, distress, or personal suffering. "Apology" comes from Greek and Latin words for giving testimony and explanations in defense of oneself or one's group (this is still the meaning when we talk about religious apologists). To me these seem like extremely different things, so I find it peculiar that for the last four hundred years, "apologize" has meant "say you're sorry" in Western culture.

ETA2: As it relates to the subject of making kids in school say they're sorry (which is what I meant to talk about in the first place but forgot), I would prefer that kids be trained in a way of thinking about it that at least somewhat resembles this. They do need to learn that their actions can harm others, and that harming others is a bad thing to do whether they intended it or not. And then they should demonstrate that understanding, by saying they are sorry and meaning it. I agree with reboot's point that a school doing this is fulfilling a parental role, and that's a good thing.
nearly_takuan
nearly_takuan

Posts : 1069
Reputation : 456
Join date : 2014-10-01

Back to top Go down

Shaking my head in dispare over this - Page 3 Empty Re: Shaking my head in dispare over this

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 3 of 4 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum