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Post by Guest on Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:08 pm

So anyway, I read that article about men being mostly sexually invisible unless they fall into an extremely narrow category, and this is me trying to discuss it reasonably because I want to make sense of it.

One, I think a large issue a lot of people here have is accepting the idea that even if you are a sexual human being (as in, a human being who freely expresses themselves sexually, has sex at the rate that they'd like to, and enjoys it for the most part) can still be ashamed of themselves, can still feel inadequate, all of the fun stuff that us virgins think doesn't happen. A large part of that is being completely invisible in terms of sexual attention.

Two, people who are sexually active have no fucking idea what it feels like to be truly invisible. I don't mean people who have had sex, I mean those who have it frequently with people they are actually attracted to, not a couple drunken hookups here and there. As in, they've never had a single dry spell. These people inevitably get pissed off when they discover that not everyone is like them. There seems to be a degree of entitlement among this group, slightly worse around those who only have hookups and nothing else. This is just what I've noticed, so for all I know, I could be wrong.

So these are the ones who typically say shit like "be yourself," "there's someone out there for everyone," all the usual spiel. But they also know how it feels to be looked at sexually, to be desired, all of that fun shit. We don't.

Three, these same people have no idea how horrible it feels to be a NSE (non sexual entity, because I'm not using Average Frustrated Chump the way the PUAs do).

Four, sexual validation is the ultimate validation, whether or not you'd like to pretend that it isn't to soothe your own conscience. That's not to say that it's the only way, but having friends and having a good career is nothing compared to the euphoria of being sexually desired. That's only happened to me once (not like "you have a penis and I'm lonely" desire, full on "holy fucking shit you're so fucking gorgeous" desire), and it was the happiest I ever got to being. Not even a thousand friends or a high paying career would make me feel that good. Sex is the reason why humanity exists, that's why it's so important to us.

Five, it seems a little bit strange that so many people are incapable of being sexual. The millions of neckbeards and SJWs out there suggest that in the next several decades, a ton of people are going to die as virgins. It's already taken out Japan, i honestly think America is next.

Six, this line got me a little mad: "Find and foster those emotional connections, those intimate relationships – they’ll be the ones to support you when you need it, provide the care and acknowledgment you crave."

What gets me upset about it is the assumption that everyone already knows how to do this. The reason why I am not sexually desirable, save all of the superficial reasons that I like to blame whenever I have an episode, is that I cannot connect with people in any context. That's a shared trait: being unable to form connections with people. If you could form connections, sex would be more likely.

Seven, regarding fashion: some people don't have a style. I don't have a style. There's only one kind of clothing that looks good on me: t-shirts and jeans. Everything else makes me look really fucking stupid. It's another shared trait: NSEs tend to look terrible in everything but the most basic clothing items. And they are very nice t-shirts and jeans (I mean, they're not Wal Mart level). However, the Doc continually insists that putting on a suit is an aphrodisiac, but that's making assumptions about What Women Want. Again, it chalks up to the Doc giving out orders and directions, but having no idea how to proceed from there. "Wear nice clothes!" Like what?

On a personal note, on another article there's something about not fidgeting and how fidgeting is massively unsexy. For me, a big problem that I've noticed is that I fidget a lot, not just when I'm nervous (and I'm nervous almost all the time), but in general. It's less of a habit and more of a tic, the more stressed I get, the stranger my hand movements get. If I don't do these movements, then I go absolutely insane, it feels physical uncomfortable if I don't move like that. Apparently this is a byproduct of being on the autistic spectrum and it's a coping mechanism to deal with the fact that my senses are overstimulated or something like that.

On another personal note, as I've said numerous times before, I can't read subtle body language at all. This leads to people reacting strangely because I just violated some kind of unspoken social code. For all I know, I've gotten tons of signals from beautiful women and had no idea. I literally cannot read people, it's awful. I don't know how to rectify that. How the fuck am I supposed to know what to do if I can't even tell what they're thinking?

Another problem I've noticed from observing my own behavior, the more stressed out I get, the more I start to slur and stutter my words. Since I get stressed really easily, there's times in which I try to say something and it all comes out as one messed up word instead of what I'm trying to communicate. Then I have to repeat myself again.

When I get really nervous, I also stutter. Whenever I say "I," it comes out like "I-I-I-I-I". Again, according to the Doc, women find stuttering to be massively unattractive. It's not something I do in normal conversation, I just panic so much that I stop speaking properly. According to people I asked, they know when I'm attracted to a woman because I gradually break down completely and turn into a fidgety stuttery mess, or I tend to start insulting them in a desperate attempt to "tease" them. I treat them rudely based off of whatever stupid PUA crap is still in my subconscious.

"But I'm not a creep!" I said weakly.

"Well you've never creeped a single girl out, but not a single girl likes a guy trying hard not to be a creep either," said the friend. "They can tell that you're nervous around them. It's ugly to be nervous, man. Women want confidence. They want it to be natural and effortless, or not at all."

No duh.

"So what should I do?"

"Pretend to like yourself and be comfortable around girls, or never talk to another woman again."

I'm not as good of an actor as I thought, clearly.

I also apparently avoid eye contact with people I'm attracted to, out of fear that they'll catch me ogling and brand me as a creep. I don't like looking into people's eyes, it makes me incredibly uncomfortable. The friends I have accept that I never look at anyone for more than a couple seconds. Since eye contact is required to attract women, I don't know what to do about this because it's not a habit, it's a tic.

"It's noticeable because I know the difference between a girl you're attracted to who you know well, and one you don't. Because you do the same shit around any girl you like, but the ones you've known for a while, who you've never told, it's only mild because you're used to them. Why didn't you ever tell them?"

"Look at me, do you ever think that would happen?"

My friend sighs in exasperation. "You need to learn how the fuck to relax."

Again, that's what's always bugged me about the Doc's advice: it's to mime emotions that I'm not capable of feeling: comfort, relaxation, confidence. I close myself off because I'm petrified of absolutely everyone except people I already know.

"Girls don't like guys who are afraid of them, man."

"I know."

"They want guys who think 'I'm an incredibly attractive man and I know it.'"

"I know."

"You're fun to chill with unless a cute girl shows up, then you fall to pieces."

"I know."

"Are you ever going to like yourself?"

"What about myself can I like?"

He had no answer.

Perhaps that's what I should talk to the shrink about: having no self-confidence whatsoever. The thought of walking up to a girl and assuming that she'd want to talk to me is foreign and impossible to imagine.

So what do you guys think, is it as ranty as last time? I think I did a good job. I eagerly await a day in which I'm not the one begging for help.

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Post by eselle28 on Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:27 pm

There's a lot going on in this post. Would it be okay if I responded to a couple points but not to all of them?

One of the things that stood out to me is that your point two defines "sexually active" in a way that only a fairly small percentage of people is going to be able to meet in any kind of a sustained way? Never having a dry spell, while still having sex with people you're actually attracted to? I don't think that's achievable for many people beyond those who started having sex very young and are still very young and perhaps a handful of rock stars.

I think that may lead into the fifth point about there being seemingly so many people who aren't able to have fulfilling sex lives. I'd suggest that rather than there being something very wrong with large portions of the population, that perhaps instead the standard is being set a little too high. I do understand that it makes sense to differentiate between someone who's had a one night stand followed by years of rejection or someone who has sex but only with people they're not attracted to and people who are mostly satisfied with their sex lives, but I think perhaps you've set the bar a little too high.

I can respect your fourth point insofar as it relates to you, but I'd suggest that it might not be as universally applicable as it's stated?

And, no, not as ranty as last time. Not that there's anything wrong with ranting.
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Post by Guest on Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:41 pm

eselle28 wrote:I can respect your fourth point insofar as it relates to you, but I'd suggest that it might not be as universally applicable as it's stated?

This was much, much, much more polite than I was going to be.

Can I suggest that "the ultimate validation" is maybe whatever you're not getting? Because let me tell you, being sexually desirable sure as fuck isn't helping me deal with any of the crap that comes from what I missed getting from my parents growing up.

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Post by Autumnflame on Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:49 pm

2) I've literally never met anyone who's never had a dry spell since they started sexual activity. Not even people in poly relationships, wherein presumably you'd have several people who'd be going through different fluctuations in libido/sex level.

Not saying there isn't a qualitative difference between a few unsatisfying drunken hookups, never having had sex despite wanting to, and having a sex life that one is satisfied with at the moment (whatever that may consist of), but I think the example you're thinking of is an imaginary one borne of your frustrations and the highlight reel effect.

4) The ultimate validation, I presume, is achieving whatever is the ultimate goal for the person in question, perhaps with a side order of receiving validation in something they value about themselves but don't necessarily get a lot of attention for. There's plenty of beautiful people who get lots of attention for their beauty, but are waaaay more chuffed when they get noticed for the quality of their work or their intellect.


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Post by reboundstudent on Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:26 pm

Five, it seems a little bit strange that so many people are incapable of being sexual. The millions of neckbeards and SJWs out there suggest that in the next several decades, a ton of people are going to die as virgins. It's already taken out Japan, i honestly think America is next.

I think that is an incredibly simplistic and disingenuous way to look at the situation in Japan. The reasons Japan has a large portion of un-sexed young people are multi-faceted and complicated, and some of them are specific to that country's culture in a way that just doesn't translate to Western culture.

I've studied the Hikikomori and "grass-eater" movement a lot, and unsurprisingly, the biggest factor probably comes from economics. Japan is a fascinating country is that it seems to have modern gender roles; women work and, traditionally, control the family purse strings. But Japan has never had a feminist movement to speak of; despite the pill being legalized in 1999, only about 2% of women use it. Women do have careers and jobs, but it's assumed that these women will either quit once they are married, or for sure once they have children, leading to a lot of discrimination against women who either try to advance or women who wish to have both family and careers. The pressure on mothers, meanwhile, is extreme-all of a child's achievements or problems are placed squarely, and only, on the mother's shoulders. The traditional model of a salaryman is one who dedicates his life to his company, not his family, sleeping at the office and seeing his family on weekends... so in addition to the discrimination at work, Japanese women can expect to shoulder all of the home duties. Child care like we know in the US is virtually unheard of.

I'll give a personal example: when I lived in Japan, my English teacher was nice enough to frequently let me hang out with her family, taking me on trips and so on. I saw her kids maybe about once a month for a year. I never once met her husband; her explanation was that as a teacher, he worked a lot, despite the fact that she was a teacher as well (and a hard-working one) who still did all of the cleaning, cooking and childcare. When I once suggested that I could baby-sit so she could relax a little, she looked at me as if I'd grown two heads.

The result has been that a lot of younger women give up. They decided economic power and independence was more attractive than the thankless role of family martyr. Instead of any kind of legal or social upheaval or movement, just a feeling among young women to personally abscond from anything relating to marriage. And I can't say I was surprised... women as independent, sexual beings is still largely a foreign concept. Women, in the wider Japanese culture, are there for consumption, either for family or for male sexual gratification. This is a culture where it's considered rude to laugh at a movie in the theater because you might disrupt the people around you, but a middle-aged business man sees no issue reading violent hentai on the train next to me.

The grass-eater movement also has far less to do with sexuality, and more to do with traditional displays of masculinity. The Japanese herbivore is associated with virginity and lack of interest in sex, yes, but the social motivation has far more to do with rejecting economic competition and "masculine" identity. Herbivore men are rejecting the whole package not because women won't give it to them, but because they have no desire to participate in what they see as a rat-face. Ironically, both genders of young people in Japan are rejecting the previous generation's framing of a good life, just in different ways (women reject traditional female gender roles for economic power, men reject traditional male gender roles to escape emotional exhaustion.) Framing it as either they can't get sex or have given up in despair because women are materialistic is such a twisted misreading of the actual cultural reality.
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Post by reboot on Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:45 pm

reboundstudent wrote:
Five, it seems a little bit strange that so many people are incapable of being sexual. The millions of neckbeards and SJWs out there suggest that in the next several decades, a ton of people are going to die as virgins. It's already taken out Japan, i honestly think America is next.

I think that is an incredibly simplistic and disingenuous way to look at the situation in Japan. The reasons Japan has a large portion of un-sexed young people are multi-faceted and complicated, and some of them are specific to that country's culture in a way that just doesn't translate to Western culture.

I've studied the Hikikomori and "grass-eater" movement a lot, and unsurprisingly, the biggest factor probably comes from economics. Japan is a fascinating country is that it seems to have modern gender roles; women work and, traditionally, control the family purse strings. But Japan has never had a feminist movement to speak of; despite the pill being legalized in 1999, only about 2% of women use it.  Women do have careers and jobs, but it's assumed that these women will either quit once they are married, or for sure once they have children, leading to a lot of discrimination against women who either try to advance or women who wish to have both family and careers. The pressure on mothers, meanwhile, is extreme-all of a child's achievements or problems are placed squarely, and only, on the mother's shoulders. The traditional model of a salaryman is one who dedicates his life to his company, not his family, sleeping at the office and seeing his family on weekends... so in addition to the discrimination at work, Japanese women can expect to shoulder all of the home duties. Child care like we know in the US is virtually unheard of.

I'll give a personal example: when I lived in Japan, my English teacher was nice enough to frequently let me hang out with her family, taking me on trips and so on. I saw her kids maybe about once a month for a year. I never once met her husband; her explanation was that as a teacher, he worked a lot, despite the fact that she was a teacher as well (and a hard-working one) who still did all of the cleaning, cooking and childcare. When I once suggested that I could baby-sit so she could relax a little, she looked at me as if I'd grown two heads.  

The result has been that a lot of younger women give up. They decided economic power and independence was more attractive than the thankless role of family martyr. Instead of any kind of legal or social upheaval or movement, just a feeling among young women to personally abscond from anything relating to marriage. And I can't say I was surprised... women as independent, sexual beings is still largely a foreign concept. Women, in the wider Japanese culture, are there for consumption, either for family or for male sexual gratification. This is a culture where it's considered rude to laugh at a movie in the theater because you might disrupt the people around you, but a middle-aged business man sees no issue reading violent hentai on the train next to me.

The grass-eater movement also has far less to do with sexuality, and more to do with traditional displays of masculinity. The Japanese herbivore is associated with virginity and lack of interest in sex, yes, but the social motivation has far more to do with rejecting economic competition and "masculine" identity. Herbivore men are rejecting the whole package not because women won't give it to them, but because they have no desire to participate in what they see as a rat-face. Ironically, both genders of young people in Japan are rejecting the previous generation's framing of a good life, just in different ways (women reject traditional female gender roles for economic power, men reject traditional male gender roles to escape emotional exhaustion.) Framing it as either they can't get sex or have given up in despair because women are materialistic is such a twisted misreading of the actual cultural reality.    

Got to agree with RBS on this one, Glides.
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Post by nearly_takuan on Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:20 pm

Yeah, my idea of "ultimate validation" would be feeling wanted outside my immediate family, instead of just...convenient and helpful and "friendly". Y'know, like...being important to somebody in some way. As a person. I think everyone has different rules for things like that.

Still, sexual desire's not an uncommon factor in that. I wish that was something I could offer. Neutral
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Post by Enail on Wed Dec 03, 2014 6:09 pm

One thing I think might make advice (and feeling like it's impossible) less frustrating is, don't think about it as an all-or-nothing situation. You can get more comfortable making eye contact or talking to people you're attracted to - and see improvements from that change - without having to become 100% cool-but-just-the-right-amount-of-warm-and-friendly around them. More comfortable than you were before is better, whether or not you've achieved some magical level of Perfect Smooth! You can make brush up your style a little without going around wearing suits all over the place (which is not actually appropriate to every person and every situation in every area). And so forth. Don't think of there as being one ridiculously high bar that you have to achieve or there's no benefit at all, think of working to increase how high you can jump, which will improve your chances.
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Post by LadyIkaros on Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:06 pm

Not going to tell you, that sexual validation isn't an ego boost. Also not going to tell you that you wouldn't be happier in a relationship, because quite possibly you would. In my experience some people build contended single lives and others really don't thriwe on their own.
That being said, I do think you wildly overestimate the effects of being sexually active. That emotional high you experienced when someone wanted to jump your bones is not how you'd go through life feeling if only more people expressed attraction to you. Sex doesn't fix you, it wouldn't make your issues go away and it certainly wouldn't cure what - according to my internet armchair diagnosis - seems to be a fairly severe depression.

And this isn't coming from a person with attractive lovers on tap. I say it as someone who, to stay within your vocabulary, lives in the land of NSE and has done so for years.

FWIW I agree on your point about connection; I believe that for a lot of people, not being good at establishing romantic relationships is a part of not being good at establishing relationships generally. (I for one would take an increased talent for making friends - in stead of just aquaintances - over an increased talent for attracting sexual partners any day, so seconding what others have said about people's ultimate varying).
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Post by Dan_Brodribb on Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:58 pm

One of the things I personally find interesting:

Sexually visible and sexually active are two distinct things.

They overlap, but they aren't one and the same. People can find you attractive and still not want to sleep with you. Similarly, people who make themselves sexually visible are not available to all and sundry.

On the other side of the coin, many sexually active people will downplay their sexual visibility for any number of reasons. But that doesn't mean they're living sexless lives in Eunuchville.

Whether we're talking about sexiness, 'niceness', crudeness, or character, we often have a tendency to mistake the performance for the performer.

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