Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style

Page 2 of 5 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Go down

Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style - Page 2 Empty Re: Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style

Post by reboundstudent on Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:05 pm

BasedBuzzed wrote:
On the parts that make me rage in the first link: how the abusive actions of one person gets entirely whitewashed while the other gets pilloried and mobbed for it precisely along stereotypical gender lines(here's a clearer link: http://thingofthings.wordpress.com/2014/11/17/zoe-quinn-is-an-abuser/ , though I don't think she's harsh enough on Gonji given what the dilettante dudette posted, and see also this case: http://laurajmixon.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/A-Report-on-Damage-Done-by-One-Individual-Under-Several-Names.pdf). Especially in the light of these cases, I want something that shows at least the severity of the vitriol. Perhaps moral busybodies(after the C.S. Lewis quoute) might work, because it brings across the harsh tactics of norm enforcement?

Isn't that reading a bit disingenuous? As I said in my comments on GamerGate, if Gonji had posted an anonymous account of his situation or, hell, even structured his post to be about Quinn's emotional abuse and how female-on-male abuse is not taken seriously, I think this whole conversation would have shaken out very differently. But he didn't. Quinn being an emotional abuser was, at best, a sub-point of his post. His post is not about her abusing him; it's about her cheating and her morals and her ethical professionalism.

People aren't calling Gonji out as an abuser or a piece-of-junk because he emotionally abused Quinn at the time; they're doing it because he wrote a huge, public tirade about how she's a Slutty Liar. Again, if the genders had been swapped (an ex-girlfriend posting a big long tirade about her cheating boyfriend) I think you would have gotten a whole lot of the same side-eye. But it goes beyond even that; he gets called out on bad behavior because he knowing sent harassment her way.

He's getting pilloried and mobbed for that. What Quinn did is getting white-washed because, while she might have fired the first shots across the bow, he escalated it to a nuclear war. Hell, not even a nuclear war-a nuclear strike, because there was literally no way for her to fight back against a crowd of anonymous harassers. What Quinn did to Gonji is about a 25 on the Hey Not Cool scale. What he did to her is like.... a 67. Not even comparable.
reboundstudent
reboundstudent

Posts : 460
Reputation : 261
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style - Page 2 Empty Re: Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style

Post by Gentleman Johnny on Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:05 pm

BasedBuzzed wrote:
On the parts that make me rage in the first link: how the abusive actions of one person gets entirely whitewashed while the other gets pilloried and mobbed for it precisely along stereotypical gender lines(here's a clearer link: http://thingofthings.wordpress.com/2014/11/17/zoe-quinn-is-an-abuser/ , though I don't think she's harsh enough on Gonji given what the dilettante dudette posted, and see also this case: http://laurajmixon.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/A-Report-on-Damage-Done-by-One-Individual-Under-Several-Names.pdf). Especially in the light of these cases, I want something that shows at least the severity of the vitriol. Perhaps moral busybodies(after the C.S. Lewis quoute) might work, because it brings across the harsh tactics of norm enforcement?

Dude, given that both of them screwed up their relationship, a point I'm willing to concede because it doesn't much matter, one of them broke up and left. The other posted his dirty laundry online and started a movement to get back at her. "They're both in the wrong" doesn't cut it.

_________________
Gentleman Johnny
Not John Galt
Gentleman Johnny
Gentleman Johnny

Posts : 555
Reputation : 213
Join date : 2014-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style - Page 2 Empty Re: Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style

Post by reboot on Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:24 pm

Gentleman Johnny wrote:
BasedBuzzed wrote:
On the parts that make me rage in the first link: how the abusive actions of one person gets entirely whitewashed while the other gets pilloried and mobbed for it precisely along stereotypical gender lines(here's a clearer link: http://thingofthings.wordpress.com/2014/11/17/zoe-quinn-is-an-abuser/ , though I don't think she's harsh enough on Gonji given what the dilettante dudette posted, and see also this case: http://laurajmixon.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/A-Report-on-Damage-Done-by-One-Individual-Under-Several-Names.pdf). Especially in the light of these cases, I want something that shows at least the severity of the vitriol. Perhaps moral busybodies(after the C.S. Lewis quoute) might work, because it brings across the harsh tactics of norm enforcement?

Dude, given that both of them screwed up their relationship, a point I'm willing to concede because it doesn't much matter, one of them broke up and left. The other posted his dirty laundry online and started a movement to get back at her. "They're both in the wrong" doesn't cut it.

Exactly! And let's just stop pretending that GamerGate gives two shits about what happened in the relationship. They had a fucked up relationship and she might have been emotionally abusive (I have doubt's because he never mentioned it in the initial screed). He posted an identifiable screed about her and targeted her professional and personal ethics for revenge. The reactionary forces doxxed her and sent death and rape threats. If you see some sort of equivalence here your sense of scale is off.

EDIT: And then let us consider Sarkeesian, Wu, Day, and all the other people who have been attacked by GamerGate who had nothing to do with Quinn and Gonji's relationship. Since when is attacking people who have nothing to do with the matter at hand equivalent?
reboot
reboot
Moderator of "Other Relationships" and "Gender, Identity and Society"

Posts : 2514
Reputation : 1005
Join date : 2014-09-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style - Page 2 Empty Re: Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style

Post by Robjection on Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:43 pm

BasedBuzzed wrote:@Kleenestar

I understand that, the same thing happened in reverse with Chanology: looking back, it's ridiculous how much of a media darling Anonymous was in the light of its origin(I honestly wonder how much death/rape threats the Ronbot receptionists got in the initial wave of spamming). But that behaviour was neglected in light of the greater evil of Scientology, and they bought the 'lol, Anon is a decentralized movement' excuse like cake. I'm in dire need of a manner of phrasing that lets me call out toxic behaviour of unequal severity in two parties that doesn't get parsed like "both sides are equally bad in sum total", but rather as "this type of assholish behaviour fulfills horseshoe theory, look out for it, because those folks are the greatest threat".

What exactly is this "horseshoe theory"? I ask because I'm kinda having trouble seeing what problem you have with whatever thing it is that you have a problem with and I suspect that me not knowing about horseshoe theory might have something to do with that.

_________________
The above post contains Robjectionable content.
Robjection
Robjection

Posts : 384
Reputation : 100
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style - Page 2 Empty Re: Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style

Post by nonA on Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:52 pm

EDIT: And then let us consider Sarkeesian, Wu, Day, and all the other people who have been attacked by GamerGate who had nothing to do with Quinn and Gonji's relationship. Since when is attacking people who have nothing to do with the matter at hand equivalent?

So very much this.

Even if we grant that The Zoe Post was an abuse victim lashing out in the only way he could think of, that's one person. Gamergate is composed of more than just him, and care for abuse victims has been a lower priority to them than doxxing and complaining about SJWs.

Which is what's probably going to ultimately kill it. I can get the channers alluded to in the initial post here. They've done a poor job policing themselves, and a bunch of nutcases have set up a serious presence. A movement that's not willing to police itself and keep its nutters in line will soon come find the loudest voices defining it, and that's exactly what's happening to GG.

nonA

Posts : 72
Reputation : 28
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style - Page 2 Empty Re: Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style

Post by reboot on Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:55 pm

I give you horseshoe theory

Misapplied this theory can allow grave injustices to occur and is frequently a way to avoid taking action or dismissing real problems. One example is in the apartheid days with the ANC and equality supporters described as equivalent to the apartheid supporters because of violence during the ANC's militancy period.
reboot
reboot
Moderator of "Other Relationships" and "Gender, Identity and Society"

Posts : 2514
Reputation : 1005
Join date : 2014-09-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style - Page 2 Empty Re: Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style

Post by Mel on Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:22 pm

I think others have covered the issues with portraying both sides of GG as equally problematic. BasedBuzzed, I'm curious what double standard you're seeing with the dialogue around the Benjanun Sriduangkaew situation? Whose abusive actions are being whitewashed there? And how does it have anything to do with gender lines? As far as I understand the case (and I have friends who were directly affected by the RH/WF personae, as well as having read several accounts), we have one woman who used online aliases to harass and bully fellow writers and book fans, especially fellow women, for several years. We also have a few women who found out about this and have exposed/documented the situation in various non-harassing ways. The only man who seems to have played much of a role in the situation was only tangentially involved in exposing and defending her, and has not, as far as I have seen, been harassed either.

Can you please clarify?
Mel
Mel
Roving Moderator

Posts : 317
Reputation : 182
Join date : 2014-09-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style - Page 2 Empty Re: Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style

Post by Lemminkainen on Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:34 pm

reboot wrote:
Gentleman Johnny wrote:
BasedBuzzed wrote:
On the parts that make me rage in the first link: how the abusive actions of one person gets entirely whitewashed while the other gets pilloried and mobbed for it precisely along stereotypical gender lines(here's a clearer link: http://thingofthings.wordpress.com/2014/11/17/zoe-quinn-is-an-abuser/ , though I don't think she's harsh enough on Gonji given what the dilettante dudette posted, and see also this case: http://laurajmixon.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/A-Report-on-Damage-Done-by-One-Individual-Under-Several-Names.pdf). Especially in the light of these cases, I want something that shows at least the severity of the vitriol. Perhaps moral busybodies(after the C.S. Lewis quoute) might work, because it brings across the harsh tactics of norm enforcement?

Dude, given that both of them screwed up their relationship, a point I'm willing to concede because it doesn't much matter, one of them broke up and left. The other posted his dirty laundry online and started a movement to get back at her. "They're both in the wrong" doesn't cut it.

Exactly! And let's just stop pretending that GamerGate gives two shits about what happened in the relationship. They had a fucked up relationship and she might have been emotionally abusive. He posted an identifiable screed about her and targeted her professional and personal ethics for revenge. The reactionary forces doxxed her and sent death and rape threats. If you see some sort of equivalence here your sense of scale is off.

I don't think that BB (or multi or Ozy, who he linked to) actually believe that most of the GG people care about or are even aware of Zoe Quinn's emotionally abusive behavior, or that her abusive behavior justifies the campaign of harassment against her.  In fact, both multi and Ozy have explicitly stated exactly that, and Ozy actually bans any commenter who offers apologetics for harassing Quinn on zir blog.  It's also worth remembering that believing that Zoe abused Eron and publicly stating that you believe that is not equivalent to saying that harassing Zoe is justified.  Let's not strawman people or make our discussions about what happened in the world nothing but political-tribal signaling-- we don't just have to choose between two positions.

Re horseshoe theory: I think that in some ways, it applies to the most vicious internet SJ people and reactionary types, but I don't think that Gamergate is really a case where that holds up terribly well.  (There are anti-GG people who doxx their opponents and engage in ableist, classist, and body-shaming language by calling all of their opponents basement-dwelling aspie neckbeards, which are both behaviors which I think are heinous and inexcusable, but the threats of violence aren't flying nearly as thick or fast from that side of the fence.)  

I think that a better examples here would be about how both of these groups embrace of Alinskyite person-targeting political tactics, censorship, and hierarchies of who you should believe or consider morally good on the basis of arbitrary, uncontrollable characteristics (just to be clear-- I'm only talking about the most extreme people here-- the vast majority of leftists aren't witchwind, and the vast majority of conservatives and libertarians aren't Jim Donald-- for your emotional health, I wouldn't recommend actually visiting either of those blogs).  Members of both groups also tend to believe that anybody who disagrees with them is just trying to accumulate power or troll them, view even small political/doctrinal disagreements as heresies which imply that the disagree-er is morally corrupt, and believe that they're fighting vast conspiracies.

Interestingly, though, I think that the horseshoe can also work in positive ways, in cases where the people whose political views are weird are anti-authoritarians.  For example, both anarchists and libertarians believe that the state is fundamentally coercive and violent and that it should intervene less often in people's day-to-day lives.  Their big disagreement is really just over whether capitalism is a virtuous natural order which governments unjustly interfere with, or simply another oppressive system perpetuated and maintained by the state itself.  But these groups can totally cooperate about opposing horrible things which moderates are too chickenshit to deal with, like imperialist warfare (Rand Paul and most far-leftists agree that undeclared secret war fought by flying murder robots is bad) or police misconduct (a bunch of libertarians have started hopping on the Eric Garner bandwagon and advocating for police reform).  So, horseshoeing isn't always bad!*

*Worth noting: I actually am an extreme leftist-- I'm just a wishy-washy nondogmatic one who doesn't think that people who disagree with his most extreme positions are stupid or evil.  So, my endorsement of some forms of horseshoeing probably stems from that.

EDIT: Fixing pronoun for referring to Ozy Frantz, who is nonbinary genderqueer, not a woman.


Last edited by Lemminkainen on Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

Lemminkainen

Posts : 143
Reputation : 58
Join date : 2014-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style - Page 2 Empty Re: Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style

Post by BasedBuzzed on Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:49 pm

^Can you be my postwriter? You're basically saying everything I want to say in a clear, less jumbled manner.

My apologies for screwing this up so much, this is the privilege thread all over again. :S

I was using Benjanun as an example of people afraid to speak about because of the progressive clout her alias had gathered, and intending to use horseshoe theory for tactics/puritanism/"it's okay when we do it" excuses.

_________________
Pompeii, VIII.2 (in the basilica); 1904: "O walls, you have held up so much tedious graffiti that I am amazed that you have not already collapsed in ruin."
BasedBuzzed
BasedBuzzed

Posts : 811
Reputation : 267
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style - Page 2 Empty Re: Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style

Post by Gentleman Johnny on Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:43 pm

So you're saying some people on both sides behave inappropriately in similar ways. Agreed. I don't think that's a particularly useful point. If militant leftists are targeting militant right wingers and militant right wingers are targeting moderates, that's not equivalent. Furthermore, treating it like it is lets the side that targets the mainstream set the agenda.

You know, I'll go a step farther. Decrying militancy without an eye to legitimacy is a great way to silence people with a legitimate grievance. See District 11, Ferguson, the American Revolution, the Civil War, South Africa et al. I'm sorry but "ethics in game journalism" and attempts to enforce it are a post facto band-aid on the grievance that started Gamergate.

_________________
Gentleman Johnny
Not John Galt
Gentleman Johnny
Gentleman Johnny

Posts : 555
Reputation : 213
Join date : 2014-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style - Page 2 Empty Re: Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style

Post by Lemminkainen on Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:02 pm

Gentleman Johnny wrote:So you're saying some people on both sides behave inappropriately in similar ways. Agreed. I don't think that's a particularly useful point. If militant leftists are targeting militant right wingers and militant right wingers are targeting moderates, that's not equivalent.

In non-GG contexts, far left internet people target moderates pretty frequently.  See: people dogpiling Freddie DeBoer, #CancelColbert, lefty activists stalking and threatening to murder people who think rape is horrible and are trying to stop it just because they try to investigate possible biological drivers for rape so that we can figure out ways to mitigate them (http://www.psmag.com/navigation/health-and-behavior/bugs-like-made-germ-theory-democracy-beliefs-73958/), witchwind and her ilk advocating the imprisonment and euthanasia of literally all men (which, by definition, includes all moderate men), anti-rape advocates calling any man who wants the presumption of innocence (literally the main pillar of the criminal justice system and one of the very few things which already-disadvantaged poor and nonwhite defendants can fall back on) to continue existing in rape trials entitled misogynist rape-apologizers and probably a secret rapist himself, etc.

EDIT: And, to the second part of your post-- everybody posting here actually already agrees with you that the GG harassment campaign is wrong, and nobody is asserting that it's legitimate.  You're attacking people for positions which they don't hold, and which they've expressly disavowed.  Put your straw man away. Noting that an aspect of somebody's behavior is problematic does not mean that you're condoning that person's opponents or condemning that person's allies.


Last edited by Lemminkainen on Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:46 pm; edited 2 times in total

Lemminkainen

Posts : 143
Reputation : 58
Join date : 2014-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style - Page 2 Empty Re: Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style

Post by BasedBuzzed on Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:21 pm

Did I ever say I subscribed to muh ethics? I pointed out back then on DNL Prime that Gawker deserves some backlash for the dirty shit it has done, but that videogame journalism was the least of those concerns. Ethics is too diffuse anyway, just as protesting Scientology was a nonsensical gameplan. To one it's "ban all progressivism", to the next person it's "stop monetizing activism with disingenous clickbait", the third just wants a nuanced analysis à la Critical Distance, and the fourth wants in-depth gameplay analysis that's only interesting to E-sports fanatics.

I've spoken to militant right-wingers and militant left-wingers, and they were both utterly asinine. Posturing asshats who bragged about beating up people who made a wrong remark, anti-stuff without any constructive solutions and the self-identified fascist was actually more tolerant of jewish people(pro-Israel because then they'd have a place to send all the folks in Europe back too versus banker parasite rhetoric).

_________________
Pompeii, VIII.2 (in the basilica); 1904: "O walls, you have held up so much tedious graffiti that I am amazed that you have not already collapsed in ruin."
BasedBuzzed
BasedBuzzed

Posts : 811
Reputation : 267
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style - Page 2 Empty Re: Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style

Post by Mel on Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:29 pm

<mod> Okay, we're getting pretty far off the original topic here. If anyone wants to discuss "chan" style communication and how it relates to GamerGate, great. I don't think further discussion of which extremists are better or worse than which other extremists is going to be productive, so please drop that topic, everyone. </mod>
Mel
Mel
Roving Moderator

Posts : 317
Reputation : 182
Join date : 2014-09-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style - Page 2 Empty Re: Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style

Post by Lemminkainen on Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:24 am

Back to the original topic--

A thing about chan culture which is important to GamerGate but which A Man in Black didn't mention-- the importance of pop culture in chan culture.

4chan and similar spaces tend to be really hostile to most real-life identifications, and particularly to religion. They also take figures from pop culture and declare them to be gods or badasses or general exemplars for life. (See, the Memetic Badass page on tvTropes, the "I'm gar for Archer!" meme, etc.) Of course, there's usually a certain amount of irony in these declarations, but it seems like a lot of channers (like, well, a lot of nerds generally), see the media they consume as the most exciting and meaningful thing in their life, identify with it, and get really upset when people say negative things about it.

I think that this reflects another sort of social phenomenon: the fact that entertainment has just gotten much more, well... entertaining recently. Mass market-oriented television, movies, and games are basically better than they ever have been, and cable TV, streaming, indie developers, and digital distribution platforms have made a much wider variety of stuff available, making finding an entertainment thing that you really connect with much easier. And some of those forms of entertainment, particularly games, use Skinner box-type reward systems to hook you even more deeply.

So, if you're an ordinary person, there's a pretty good chance that the most interesting and meaningful thing that will happen to you on any given day will involve a piece of entertainment. And as a result, people start identifying really heavily with it.

It seems like a remedy for that would be to find ways to make ordinary people's lives, and things like political engagement, more interesting. Hilariously, the main things that I can imagine making that possible are really compelling action-oriented propaganda and various forms of gamification. (Imagine, like, a protest mixed with a LARP mixed with an ARG!) Social media is already sort of a primitive implementation of that-- go to protests and take pictures of yourself and get likes-- but if we put deliberate effort into it, we could probably come up with something cooler and better.

Lemminkainen

Posts : 143
Reputation : 58
Join date : 2014-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style - Page 2 Empty Re: Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style

Post by LadyLuck on Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:11 am

Actually, a lot of "news" and "politics" these days has already turned into another form of entertainment. I think a lot of people would agree with me in that this isn't an all-upside thing. The phenomenon Lem describes has led to some very messed up priorities - because entertainment is so meaningful for some, it then leads to not-entertaining things being viewed as unimportant and not-meaningful. But it turns out most of the really important stuff isn't actually all that fun to dig into for most, and a lot of the fun stuff isn't going to matter much in the long run.

LadyLuck

Posts : 48
Reputation : 45
Join date : 2014-11-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style - Page 2 Empty Re: Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style

Post by Lemminkainen on Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:54 am

LadyLuck wrote:Actually, a lot of "news" and "politics" these days has already turned into another form of entertainment. I think a lot of people would agree with me in that this isn't an all-upside thing. The phenomenon Lem describes has led to some very messed up priorities - because entertainment is so meaningful for some, it then leads to not-entertaining things being viewed as unimportant and not-meaningful. But it turns out most of the really important stuff isn't actually all that fun to dig into for most, and a lot of the fun stuff isn't going to matter much in the long run.

I don't disagree with you actually-- what I'm trying to say is that we need to find ways to make the meaningful parts of politics more engaging and interesting.

(I still stand by the idea that good propaganda can play a huge role in that, though. I think that the fact that for gay Americans, life went from "You even having sex is illegal in some places" to "You being able to get legally married everywhere in the country is a political inevitability which even most conservatives hiven given up trying to stop" in an astonishingly short ten-ish years-- and similarly, the way that anti-Semitism went from "totally normal" to "Generally frowned on and unpopular" in about twenty years between 1940 and 1960-- had a lot to do with changing media representations, which in both cases led popular opinion by years.)

Lemminkainen

Posts : 143
Reputation : 58
Join date : 2014-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style - Page 2 Empty Re: Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style

Post by reboot on Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:03 am

Lemminkainen wrote:Back to the original topic--
......
It seems like a remedy for that would be to find ways to make ordinary people's lives, and things like political engagement, more interesting.  Hilariously, the main things that I can imagine making that possible are really compelling action-oriented propaganda and various forms of gamification.  (Imagine, like, a protest mixed with a LARP mixed with an ARG!)  Social media is already sort of a primitive implementation of that-- go to protests and take pictures of yourself and get likes-- but if we put deliberate effort into it, we could probably come up with something cooler and better.

The problem with trying to make it entertaining is that the time scale for lasting social or political change is long and there are significant periods where you feel like you are spinning your wheels for incremental half victories. Being involved in advocacy means a lot of things that are inherently boring and less than ideal, such as sitting outside a Representatives office for an hour because he/she is held up somewhere else and then discovering that you are meeting with their staffer instead. It will never be cooler or fun. Think of LGBTQ rights. It took 1969-2014 to get from antigay laws to partial acceptance of same sex marriage through painstaking effort and much hardship, much of it dull and full of setbacks. And that was a fast change.

Entertainment might be a way to get people in the door, but it will not be enough to get them involved beyond token support. So it would be a first step but not enough.
reboot
reboot
Moderator of "Other Relationships" and "Gender, Identity and Society"

Posts : 2514
Reputation : 1005
Join date : 2014-09-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style - Page 2 Empty Re: Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style

Post by nearly_takuan on Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:34 am

Token support can still be manifest as support, if framed right. Even now most people won't actively get off their butts and help rally or lobby for LGBTQ rights, and won't even make much noise when someone else says something homophobic. But enough people have by now internalized their own "token support" that they'll at least feel a little uncomfortable about it, and want to avoid being seen as homophobic themselves.

One arguably good thing about the US two-party system is that we can slowly bind an issue to an entire political party, which forces politicians to choose a rhetoric (support from LGBTQ allies and sympathizers vs support from homophobes) and stick to it, which creates more political discourse on the issue, until eventually it feeds itself. Minor politicians try to make a few waves by being The Nonwhite Republican or The "Sanctity Of Marriage" Democrat, but the bigger ones that want to campaign for the Senate or the Presidency generally stand for whatever they think the majority of their own party stands for, and talks about whatever they think will motivate their own party to vote. (And while I think on a technical level national politics really should not be considered so much more politically relevant than State and City governing bodies, the unfortunate fact that a lot of people pay far more attention to the spectacle of the Presidency than any other political office is yet another thing we must either work around or take advantage of.) This is also, I think, part of the reason even mostly-honest people sometimes find the idea of hijacking another movement enticing; if public opinion on the definition of X changed to include Y, whatever politician(s) already identified themselves as X allies to win votes would feel some pressure to clarify their position on Y, which would mean talking about or giving lip service to Y, even if it took another ten years to actually get relevant legislation or a noticeable culture shift. On the other hand, larger coalitions just seem to grow slower and make less progress on separate individual issues, so people whose interests are already served by the existing coalition are understandably wary of outsiders wanting to pile on more stuff even if they'd otherwise agree that there needs to be some kind of movement about that.
nearly_takuan
nearly_takuan

Posts : 1069
Reputation : 456
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style - Page 2 Empty Re: Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style

Post by Lemminkainen on Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:49 pm

reboot wrote:
Lemminkainen wrote:Back to the original topic--
......
It seems like a remedy for that would be to find ways to make ordinary people's lives, and things like political engagement, more interesting.  Hilariously, the main things that I can imagine making that possible are really compelling action-oriented propaganda and various forms of gamification.  (Imagine, like, a protest mixed with a LARP mixed with an ARG!)  Social media is already sort of a primitive implementation of that-- go to protests and take pictures of yourself and get likes-- but if we put deliberate effort into it, we could probably come up with something cooler and better.

The problem with trying to make it entertaining is that the time scale for lasting social or political change is long and there are significant periods where you feel like you are spinning your wheels for incremental half victories. Being involved in advocacy means a lot of things that are inherently boring and less than ideal, such as sitting outside a Representatives office for an hour because he/she is held up somewhere else and then discovering that you are meeting with their staffer instead. It will never be cooler or fun. Think of LGBTQ rights. It took 1969-2014 to get from antigay laws to partial acceptance of same sex marriage through painstaking effort and much hardship, much of it dull and full of setbacks. And that was a fast change.

Entertainment might be a way to get people in the door, but it will not be enough to get them involved beyond token support. So it would be a first step but not enough.

I don't think that being unsuccessful has to be boring, though. The people who I can think of who most enjoy political activity are anarchists* and neoreactionaries, and their positions are so far outside the Overton Window ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window ) that they will not succeed in their lifetimes-- and the smarter ones know that they won't. But they still seem to find doing political stuff engaging, meaningful, and powerful. The anarchists do their street stuff and describe it as being fun and joyous even though the police routinely gas, beat, and arrest them for it. I think that they in particular might have something meaningful to say about how to make political activities more engaging.

*I'm talking about real-life anarchists rather than their mostly fictitious insane bomb-throwing counterparts. Read something by Emma Goldman or David Graeber if you want to know what anarchists actually thought and think.

Lemminkainen

Posts : 143
Reputation : 58
Join date : 2014-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style - Page 2 Empty Re: Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style

Post by Gentleman Johnny on Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:45 pm

Lemminkainen wrote:
It seems like a remedy for that would be to find ways to make ordinary people's lives, and things like political engagement, more interesting.  Hilariously, the main things that I can imagine making that possible are really compelling action-oriented propaganda and various forms of gamification.  (Imagine, like, a protest mixed with a LARP mixed with an ARG!)  Social media is already sort of a primitive implementation of that-- go to protests and take pictures of yourself and get likes-- but if we put deliberate effort into it, we could probably come up with something cooler and better.

The thing is, who's been involved enough in politics to know if its really interesting? Or volunteering at the homeless shelter? I think its not so much a question of interesting as easy. The most challenging mission in Assassin's Creed is still easier than learning your hero's parkour moves for real. Killing the final boss is easier than getting 500 supporters to register for absentee ballots and making sure that they all send them in. Entertainment happens on your schedule, there's no real risk of losing and the emotional payoff is still there. It may be emotionally intense but it never really hurts.

Politics is the biggest MMO. If you want to get involved, you don't want to drop right into the hardcore mode where all the best players who have had time to hone their game play (Presidential elections). You want to cut your teeth on more newb-friendly games like City Council, where 50 or 100 votes can win you a district.

_________________
Gentleman Johnny
Not John Galt
Gentleman Johnny
Gentleman Johnny

Posts : 555
Reputation : 213
Join date : 2014-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style - Page 2 Empty Re: Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style

Post by Gentleman Johnny on Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:49 pm

Lemminkainen wrote:
I don't think that being unsuccessful has to be boring, though.  The people who I can think of who most enjoy political activity are anarchists* and neoreactionaries, and their positions are so far outside the Overton Window ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window ) that they will not succeed in their lifetimes-- and the smarter ones know that they won't.  But they still seem to find doing political stuff engaging, meaningful, and powerful.  The anarchists do their street stuff and describe it as being fun and joyous even though the police routinely gas, beat, and arrest them for it.  I think that they in particular might have something meaningful to say about how to make political activities more engaging.

My issue there is it makes it sound like engaging is the enemy of the effective. Yeah, anarchists and their way out there ilk have fun with their movements and protests but that's because they have near zero concern for whether or not anything actually changes. Its. . .political masturbation, an engagement in politics for self gratification rather than actual change. I've been in these protests, seen the giant puppets and the guys in pig masks and corporate suits, the signs, the chants, the marches and none of them are designed to engage anyone who doesn't already agree with the protesters.

_________________
Gentleman Johnny
Not John Galt
Gentleman Johnny
Gentleman Johnny

Posts : 555
Reputation : 213
Join date : 2014-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style - Page 2 Empty Re: Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style

Post by Dan_Brodribb on Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:33 pm

Lemminkainen wrote:Back to the original topic--

A thing about chan culture which is important to GamerGate but which A Man in Black didn't mention-- the importance of pop culture in chan culture.

4chan and similar spaces tend to be really hostile to most real-life identifications, and particularly to religion.  They also take figures from pop culture and declare them to be gods or badasses or general exemplars for life....it seems like a lot of channers (like, well, a lot of nerds generally), see the media they consume as the most exciting and meaningful thing in their life...  

I think that this reflects another sort of social phenomenon: the fact that entertainment has just gotten much more, well... entertaining recently.  Mass market-oriented television, movies, and games are basically better than they ever have been, and cable TV, streaming, indie developers, and digital distribution platforms have made a much wider variety of stuff available, making finding an entertainment thing that you really connect with much easier.  And some of those forms of entertainment, particularly games, use Skinner box-type reward systems to hook you even more deeply.

So, if you're an ordinary person, there's a pretty good chance that the most interesting and meaningful thing that will happen to you on any given day will involve a piece of entertainment.  And as a result, people start identifying really heavily with it.


I would say one of the consequences is that the more time people spend immersed in entertainment, the more they start to apply the same expectations to reality: looking for black and white solutions, turning people into characters (all good or all bad) instead of recognizing them as human beings, and wanting immediate gratification or at least immediate feedback on how well they are doing.

_________________
My blogs: Dating: http://thegatewayboyfriend.blogspot.ca
Movies, TV, and Videogames: http://thecompassionatedegenerate.blogspot.ca

Dan_Brodribb
Roving Moderator

Posts : 139
Reputation : 99
Join date : 2014-09-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style - Page 2 Empty Re: Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style

Post by The Wisp on Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:34 pm

Gentleman Johnny wrote:
Lemminkainen wrote:
I don't think that being unsuccessful has to be boring, though.  The people who I can think of who most enjoy political activity are anarchists* and neoreactionaries, and their positions are so far outside the Overton Window ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window ) that they will not succeed in their lifetimes-- and the smarter ones know that they won't.  But they still seem to find doing political stuff engaging, meaningful, and powerful.  The anarchists do their street stuff and describe it as being fun and joyous even though the police routinely gas, beat, and arrest them for it.  I think that they in particular might have something meaningful to say about how to make political activities more engaging.

My issue there is it makes it sound like engaging is the enemy of the effective. Yeah, anarchists and their way out there ilk have fun with their movements and protests but that's because they have near zero concern for whether or not anything actually changes. Its. . .political masturbation, an engagement in politics for self gratification rather than actual change. I've been in these protests, seen the giant puppets and the guys in pig masks and corporate suits, the signs, the chants, the marches and none of them are designed to engage anyone who doesn't already agree with the protesters.

As someone who has lived in a very lefty area for his whole life, this is often so true. A lot of the protests I've seen or heard about around here seemed to me to be, in essence, social events rather than political events; more focused on social signalling, in-group bonding, thrill-seeking, and catharsis rather than actual change. This also explains why their political strategy is often so... bad.
The Wisp
The Wisp

Posts : 896
Reputation : 198
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style - Page 2 Empty Re: Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style

Post by Gentleman Johnny on Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:59 pm

I think we may be due for a thread split here.

_________________
Gentleman Johnny
Not John Galt
Gentleman Johnny
Gentleman Johnny

Posts : 555
Reputation : 213
Join date : 2014-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style - Page 2 Empty Re: Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style

Post by Dan_Brodribb on Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:16 pm

Gentleman Johnny wrote:I think we may be due for a thread split here.

Could be. I clicked on the thread thinking it was going to be about bad-ass Tai Chi m*****f***ers, so I was playing catch-up from the get-go.

_________________
My blogs: Dating: http://thegatewayboyfriend.blogspot.ca
Movies, TV, and Videogames: http://thecompassionatedegenerate.blogspot.ca

Dan_Brodribb
Roving Moderator

Posts : 139
Reputation : 99
Join date : 2014-09-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style - Page 2 Empty Re: Gamergate: Born of Chan-Style

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 5 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum