My first (and long) Post... my situation with a girl, not sure where to stand...

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Post by TheRoux on Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:41 am

Hi everyone,

(this is gonna be a long post... sorry about that... And if you got the patience to read and answer, thanks for your time.)

I've been lurking for a while now, and this is my first time posting. First I'd like to say thanks for all the advices I've read from you over the past year. it's been very helpful in identifying and understanding some behaviors I didn't fully understand. So here's a little introduction.

I'm a 28 years old guy from a back water country called Canada (English is a secondary language for me. Even if I believe I can speak and write it good, there will mostly be times where I'll massacre some expressions). I've accumulated a lot of baggage over those short years that left me kind of anxious in certain social contexts. I can safely label myself as an introvert (but I also crave company a lot... there is so much solitude someone can bear). I've had but a few select friends growing up (I was far from being a popular kid, being a read head and all,), and frankly, I believe I can say that as of this moment, my friends are in the number of 3 (others being in the category of work colleagues and acquaintances). I've had my first girlfriend at 21. I've been with a total of 3 girls, in relationships that lasted between 1-2 years (on and off). The 2 first have been full-fledged relationships, and the third, a friends with benefits relationship that ended because she was more invested (emotionally) in me than I was in her. We are still friends to this day (though I can feel she's still hurting... and also very lonely). All those three relationships would make for great (thought painful) stories to tell but this is not the subject of this post (which I'll get to in a few paragraphs).

I've got recurring Onitis... My self confidence is slowly getting better (with some occasional downs), but I have heavy scarcity mentality. In high school, I had no girl friends... well not many friends either... at my graduation ball, I was on the only table with no girls, just unaccompanied sausages. When I got in Cegep (pre-university school in Quebec), I got into an IT program, so all guys there, and up to IT engineering University (school recently released a chart about the % of women in the programs to celebrate the higher rate of women in engineering schools, 3% in IT XD). It's pretty safe to say that I do meet women, but it's always one at a time, with a long time in between. I've tried online dating... my only success (and by success I mean getting a date or even a reply, successful or not) was my first girlfriend. I kinda hate that it's a numbers game. Ask a hundreds or a thousand time and eventually you'll find a sucker for your sore eyes... I do other activities. I play Ultimate. I've been told that I'd meet cool girls there, which was totally true, even if they were all taken. And I mean taken not as an excuse to tell me to walk away but really taken: their boyfriends and girlfriends were playing with us too. I keep playing though, because the sport is just that cool and my team is full of awesome people. I sing in a choir. Again a good deal of woman there, also all taken (and few simply not my age, thought I like to believe I once got this close to have an adventure with a bright and awesome cougar). So basically, I seem to have a hard time finding women with whom I can make a genuine connection.

And here is the subject of this post. Let's call her Beth. Beth joined my choir about a year ago. I kinda had an instant little crush on her. I got to talk to her a few times since we occasionally shared buses of subway to go home, but it wasn't until last summer that I got to know her better. I spontaneously invited her for a beer, and we really had a great time. I discovered that we had lots of common interests, she's my age, we never ran out of conversation. At this point, I was starting to like her a bit more, but I was just way too scared to ask her out officially. But after this beer, we kept talking and began bantering on a regular basis on Facebook, on public posts or private messages. I tried to invite her again not too long later, but this time she got very dodgy... I should've took that as a soft no... well I almost did, and tried my best to as good friend as I can be, but as we kept on talking, I couldn't actually (or most likely didn't want to) believe that she was ACTIVELY dodging. And she seemed to still appreciate me a lot, so I took this as mixed signals. To be fair, I didn't actively sought to invite her on "dates" but rather to simply hang out and drink.  I later tried to invite her, telling myself this would be the last time, if she kept dodging I'd stop... And she dodged at first, and I kinda pressured her to give me a clear answer (I feel bad about it...) and she eventually... gave in, said yes. (gave in... sigh... sounds bad but it's how I felt it...) Now that I'm proofreading this, it really sounds Nice-Guyish as fuck... We planned to go after our rehearsal. So after the rehearsal, I waited for her in outside the room and when she came out, I could clearly see that she was unsure if she really wanted to do this but came anyway. I believe she expected this to be some kind of Schroedinger's date, as long as we neither of us talked about it, we'd be fine... And in the end,  we still got a great time once again. So not too long after, trying to break out of my Nice Guy habits, I asked her on a date officially. And she respectfully declined, saying she agreed that we get along very well but didn't wanna date, but wanted us to stay friends (ya know... the classic). No biggie I said. I got a cool friend, I just need to move on... it shouldn't be too hard, I'm not actually in love with her, I just had an interest in a little more than friendship, that's all.

Now I feel we're getting kinda close (I think), she invited me twice to go out, made me meet some of her friends, and we managed to actually talk about relationships in general, because, you know, romance was out of the way (aka not on the plate...). Always having an awesome time... But all this getting closer stuff kinda got to me. We're kind of talking all the time, like I'd say almost everyday... The only time I got this quantity of communication was with my exes, not even my best friend. So it confuses me. And sometimes she would say things that feel a bit romantic (I think). I'm not sure she's aware... She would ask me out in a message that looks like this: "Hey so... if I a drunkard, and I invited you to drink with me... would you come?" Am I the only one who reads this like a date invitation (or a drunk text somehow...)? (actually, this is when I got to meet her friends, so clearly not a date. but we did stay until closing, long after her friends left). Or another time she'd say that I'm outrageously clairvoyant (thank Dr. Nerdlove), and other times I'm completely oblivious... And when I'd asked her about it, she'd name a few unimportant things, but with a huge grin... making me think there might be something more going on that she's not telling on purpose...

Now... she never told me the reasons she declined me date invitation... and I never asked her... her reasons are her own and trying to ask her to explain them would feel like trying to rationalize them, wrong way to go...) But she told me she's usually just not into romance relationships in general. She'd always dismiss it semi-humorously, saying it's simply not worth the effort. But the way she's saying those things makes me think she wants a relationship (talking about the prospect to have kids but the probability of it being low because she doesn't think she'll find someone before it's too late), but she's never found a guy worth the trouble. She actually told me that I'm the first guy she hasn't disappeared on after being hit on. Probably because I've been the most honest (in my "declaration") of all the guys who tried and that we also get along so well... So I kinda feel a bit special because of this... (but it also feels like a threat... like if I ever make a wrong turn, she could disappear) and from what I said earlier... I'm starting to wonder if she's not reconsidering her stance... My priority thought would be to preserve the friendship... I thought I wouldn't bring this up to her unless she did it first. Let her make a move if this is what she wants... And I wanna make this clear that it's not my intention to gather "nice guy tokens"... I'm just trying to sort this out... clear my head...

Any thoughts?

P.S. I'm taking taking a chance because while we were talking, I've told her about Dr.Nerdlove (not the forum, but she's a cunning one), so there's a slight possibility that might be reading this.
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Post by Lemminkainen on Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:55 am

Right now, it mostly seems like she actually sincerely wants to be your friend-- everything that she's done is really consistent with that. It's possible that she's reconsidering her stance, but since she already knows that you're interested, she'll probably let you know if she actually does change her mind. Since you seem to actually enjoy being friends with her, I would recommend just continuing to do that. Since she wants you to meet her friends, she'll also probably help you meet more women, which is typically a good way to get over oneitis.

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Post by reboot on Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:19 am

Lemminkainen wrote:Right now, it mostly seems like she actually sincerely wants to be your friend-- everything that she's done is really consistent with that.  It's possible that she's reconsidering her stance, but since she already knows that you're interested, she'll probably let you know if she actually does change her mind.  Since you seem to actually enjoy being friends with her, I would recommend just continuing to do that.  Since she wants you to meet her friends, she'll also probably help you meet more women, which is typically a good way to get over oneitis.

Agreed. She is talking about the romantic type stuff because that is what women talk about with their friends and you are one. That text about the drunkard? Classic friend invite (in fact I think I might have said something similar myself). If you enjoy being her friend, just stay friends with her without any expectation that something might change. If you meet someone new, ask them out. Hell, even ask Beth to wingman for you.
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Post by TheRoux on Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:28 pm

Thanks for the input.

I thought as much , but you know... sometimes you only see what you want to see...

Lemminkainen wrote: Since she wants you to meet her friends, she'll also probably help you meet more women, which is typically a good way to get over oneitis.

That would be awesome, thought I don't see this happening. She seems to have but a few good friends (like I do) and from what I understand, they're all in a relationship already. In anycase, I'm not her friends just to use her as a launch pad out of singledom, so I'm just going to enjoy the friendship with no expectation, that'll be the best.

reboot wrote: If you meet someone new, ask them out. Hell, even ask Beth to wingman for you.

Haha! I'm not sure how good a wingwoman she'd make, but that could possibly be a hilarious outcome. So if my experiences are consistent and I meet someone cool in a year or two, I just might ask her to help out. XD. I never had a wingman before, so I'm not sure how the dynamics work... I'd just have to wing it I guess, or go back to reading blogs on the internet
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Post by Spiffo on Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:51 pm

Good on you for asking her out, but you took the shot, she turned you down, that's the end of that. Now you might have this weird ~thing~ lingering in the air, but that'll disappear and you can be normal again before too long.

Your friendship burned really bright and you got really close, so it would probably be good to cool it a little and do more stuff with different people. Your last couple paragraphs lead me to believe that either A. you're still pining after her and going "but maybe there's still a chance!" or B. she's playing games with you, but either way maintaining some healthy distance and meeting different people would probably help clear your head.
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Post by TheRoux on Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:27 pm

Spiffo wrote:A. you're still pining after her and going "but maybe there's still a chance!" or B. she's playing games with you, but either way maintaining some healthy distance and meeting different people would probably help clear your head.

Well it's true that I still have a little thing for her... it hasn't been a long time since I asked her out... I just have to move on, that's all, and it's my problem. I don't really think she's playing games with me. She IS a mischievous one, that's for sure, but she's not leading me on... If I see mixed signals, it's either that she's unaware of it (not having much experience in romantic relationships and how her behavior could suggest otherwise), or most likely I'm just seeing things where there are none... because wishful thinking

Meeting other people would be cool, but I'm not sure where to go... I do plenty of activities all around in which I kinda got invested, so that doesn't really leave much room for other stuff... Aside from work and school, I got my choir, my freezbie team and I am admin of a boardgame group at school (mostly guys). I tend to avoid large parties (university parties) like the Black Death since I've simply never had good experience with those... (I've never felt so alone more than when I was stuck in a place full of people having fun, and me not having fun...)

Little experience: my good looking cousin invited me to dance (clubs) on a few occasion. Both times it ended me watching him making out with hot chicks (one time the girl being a friend of mine), and me either being stuck alone in the crowd, either alone at the bar (open bar night, we had leave someone at the bar to secure access to booze, and I volunteered somehow...), or dancing with a girl that clearly wanted to stick her tongue in my cousin's throat instead of being with me... so yeah I'm not joining him on nights out anymore...

But it does not affect strictly dance clubs, when I'm alone, I tend to avoid crowded space in general, cafeterias, restaurants... I usually get takeout and go back to my home/office desk/ to eat.

But it does not mean I don't socialize... I actually talk to my coworkers whenever I can, because they're a cool bunch. At school, I actually met the new director of the general sports club. She came and said hello. Smile I have no problem talking to people when the ice is broken. She's cool! and cute to boot! Now I can hear voices telling me to go back there and talk to her... and while that would usually be good advice, what usually takes place is a set of rationalization:

- I'm done with my exams for the semester, so I have no real reason to be on site (but she doesn't know that)
- I'll be on an internship next semester, tanking only once evening class (no it's not a typo... I'm so tired of school, taking evening classes DO feel like tanking), so I won't have much time on site either
- So I'm pretty much in a mode of... well fuck it... I'll see her when I'll see her and I'll talk to her if it gets to it...
(on site meaning in the Club's room... we are a few clubs who share the same room)
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Post by Autumnflame on Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:28 pm

Yeah, what she's doing sounds like things that friends do - go out to pubs, talk about relationships, talk a lot, etc. It sounds like the lingering feelings makes it feel a little weird for you, so you're well within your rights to back away a little (talking every other day instead of intensely, going out once a week, etc.) if you want.

There's a possibility that she likes you as a friend and also as a fringe benefit enjoys the extra charge of knowing you're attracted to her without actually being attracted to you in turn, but as long as her actions don't end up using or hurting you, and if you're okay with that possibility, it doesn't have to be a Big Thing (or a thing at all). Plenty of people stay friends with people they find attractive and interesting without hurt feelings on either side.
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Post by fakely mctest on Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:04 pm

TheRoux wrote:Haha! I'm not sure how good a wingwoman she'd make, but that could possibly be a hilarious outcome. So if my experiences are consistent and I meet someone cool in a year or two, I just might ask her to help out. XD. I never had a wingman before, so I'm not sure how the dynamics work... I'd just have to wing it I guess, or go back to reading blogs on the internet

A couple things to mull over with this:

A) Going out on the town with her as your wingwoman (if she's game) would most likely be a great friendship/bonding experience. Even if nothing comes of it in terms of meeting romantic prospects, just being out and about and having a friendly "project" with another person is a lot of fun.

B) Some women may find guys with wingwomen vs. wingmen to be more approachable because it may be perceived as shorthand for their ability to be friends with women (always a good sign). There's also an element of, "Oh that woman is 'vouching' for her friend" that some may perceive as an indicator that you're a safe guy to be around.

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Post by Gman on Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:06 am

TheRoux wrote:
Little experience: my good looking cousin invited me to dance (clubs) on a few occasion. Both times it ended me watching him making out with hot chicks (one time the girl being a friend of mine), and me either being stuck alone in the crowd, either alone at the bar (open bar night, we had leave someone at the bar to secure access to booze, and I volunteered somehow...), or dancing with a girl that clearly wanted to stick her tongue in my cousin's throat instead of being with me... so yeah I'm not joining him on nights out anymore...

I am pretty much reaffirming what others have wrote to you here - that you should maybe consider meeting her at a lessened intensity and move on to someone new.

I would also like to recommened something else: Social Dancing! Instead of going to these generic clubs - search for a place that teaches any kind of social dancing like salsa, cha cha, swing etc. In most cases, you can arrive all on yourself and frequently switching dance partners throughout the lesson and the party is usually an expected custom in these places. See if you can find something that is free of charge, but even if not, in my opinion it's worth the investment. As someone who is a big salsa dancing fan (and always likes to shamelessly plug it wherever I can, like here Razz ) it gives so much confidence and you meet so many cool people. Something to keep in my mind that helps getting over the initial shyness - is remembering that even the dance instructors or the super pro dancers there, began with a single step. That's what helped me stick through (that and that knowing how to dance is an attractive and empowering feature to have).
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Post by TheRoux on Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:17 am

Alright, update then...

So we got quite close... hang out often, mostly just the two of us. And I ended up developing feelings for her. So when we hang out, I'd sometime, without thinking, let out a sexually charged joke aimed at her (to be fair, we are usually already having a sexually charged conversation at that point, we got that close), and she would answer that joke with a laughing no (maybe it's an embarrassed laugh, I'm not sure). I would almost always regret it immediately after, but I can't make a big deal out of it or it would simply make it worse. After we leave for our own places, I would think that she'd wait a bit to talk to me again if she'd been weird-out, but sometimes she'd even text me right back.

Anyway... My best friend told me I should nuke her, but I don't want to... aside from her, there's only one person with whom I've got such a great relationship. I just need to find a way to move one without driving her away.

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Post by The Wisp on Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:17 am

Wait, cut off all contact because you're attracted to her and she's not reciprocating? That's... extreme advice (and unnecessary).
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Post by InkAndComb on Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:22 pm

I think there are a lot of friends who will throw out the "nuke" option when it seems you are miserable/unhappy with current circumstances, and you don't have a ton of time invested in an individual.

I also see this suggested much, MUCH more frequently when the source of consternation is of the opposite gender/is viewed romantically.  I believe this is because people assume you wont be able to move past this, and it's a very "burn the bridges, never go back" attitude.

If you feel, in ANY circumstance, no matter how much distance or boundary setting, that this woman couldn't "just be a friend" to you and this crush will definitely be one-itis, then yeah, nuke it. Because that would be unfair for both of you, and make you both miserable.

But that's not what it sounds like to me! It sounds like you've formed a genuine and close friendship with someone you have natural person-to-person chemistry with.  Crushes happen in these situations all the time, that doesn't mean you can't be close friends! My best guy friend used to have a case of oneitis for me 9 years ago; I was the one who introduced him to his girlfriend of 4 years.  I am also his winglady on the regular :3

Another benefit to having her as a winglady; it will cement, for both of you, that you are not romantic prospects.  You don't have someone winglady or wingman you when you secretly want to get with them.  Knowing you can flirt and engage the other gender around her can be very empowering, and seeing a healthy reaction from her can reaffirm and strengthen your friendship, imho.
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Post by StrangePanda on Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:05 am

Maybe it will be good for you to take a break from your relationship (whatever it is) for some time? Say, "Hey, $friend, I'm going to be  very busy for the next month because of my internship and  it could be that we'll not be seeing each other a lot ". Or, if you don't want to lie, say it as it is: you have to take some time for cooling things off because you feel like your feelings are returning and you don't want them in the way of your friendship. If she's really a good friend she will understand.
I don't know about you but when I can't move on, I try to not see my crush for a while and then when I see them again I'm  much less attracted to them. It's hard to move on if you keep seeing her all the time...
I dunno, it's just a suggestion. I think it's better to try it instead of nuking her all the way.

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Post by TheRoux on Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:35 pm

Yeah, it's been on my mind for a while, thought I would find it hard to take a step back, considering I'd like to see her all the time (a bit of an exageration but you get the point...)

From what I can tell by past experiences, my mourning time is quite lenghty...Took me a year or two to get over my last girlfriend... This all still feel very new to me...

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