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Post by Guest on Sat Dec 20, 2014 2:30 pm

Hello, it's everyone's least favorite person here.

Forum: "Not this asshole!"

Anyway, so I decided to take a different route than I usually do and decided to go out to a local coffee shop to hang out with a friend of mine, in the hopes that I'd see a cute girl so I could actually process the feelings I have whenever I see one.

It worked exactly as planned. A cute girl walked in, and I immediately felt the familiar rush of insecurity and self-hatred that is my natural response to that.

But instead of trying to psych myself up and talk to her and fail (primarily because I'd be such a nervous wreck that she'd be repulsed by me even before I got over there, which happens every time), I simply allowed myself to process every individual thought and took the pressure off to talk to her.

I had no rational reason not to at least attempt to talk to her, in the hopes that she'd be stupid enough to fall for me (I'm describing everything in the moment, shush).

I think I have an actual phobia of attractive women.

Anyway, my friend notices this and starts getting on my case about it: "Why the fuck are you so scared?" "She's not gonna bite." "It's so fucking easy, Glides, easiest thing to do." He was completely dumbfounded, like he always is, whenever I see a cute girl and literally shut down.

Anyway, about ten minutes ago, I got hit with another "wave of insecurity" and suddenly all of the old "you filthy virgin" feelings came back at once, to the point where I was on the floor hyperventilating because it hurt that bad.

Actually, I was reading a Reddit post about a guy in his late twenties who had experience but had gotten it only a couple years earlier. Despite having sex frequently now, girls had no interest in him in high school and college. And I realized that it was my best case scenario and that's what started it up.

What the hell do I do when I get like this? By trying to get rid of it, I tend to rile myself up and that results in angry depressing rants on the forums and me treating everyone horribly. I don't know how to get rid of that insecurity. I think my life would be better if I could somehow not regret having no sex in high school.

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Post by Caffeinated on Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:51 pm

Glides wrote:Anyway, so I decided to take a different route than I usually do and decided to go out to a local coffee shop to hang out with a friend of mine, in the hopes that I'd see a cute girl so I could actually process the feelings I have whenever I see one.

It worked exactly as planned. A cute girl walked in, and I immediately felt the familiar rush of insecurity and self-hatred that is my natural response to that.

But instead of trying to psych myself up and talk to her and fail (primarily because I'd be such a nervous wreck that she'd be repulsed by me even before I got over there, which happens every time), I simply allowed myself to process every individual thought and took the pressure off to talk to her.

This strikes me as a really good thing you did. Take the pressure off to do anything but just process the feelings that come up. I think you should do that a bunch more, because the more you process those feelings, the easier it'll get to process them. After some practice, it could become so automatic that they don't have the kind of power over you that they do now.

Glides wrote:Anyway, my friend notices this and starts getting on my case about it: "Why the fuck are you so scared?" "She's not gonna bite." "It's so fucking easy, Glides, easiest thing to do." He was completely dumbfounded, like he always is, whenever I see a cute girl and literally shut down.

Maybe tell your friend not to act like a bag of dicks. What he did is not cool. And not helpful.

Glides wrote:What the hell do I do when I get like this? By trying to get rid of it, I tend to rile myself up and that results in angry depressing rants on the forums and me treating everyone horribly. I don't know how to get rid of that insecurity. I think my life would be better if I could somehow not regret having no sex in high school.

Maybe getting rid of feelings is not the way to go about it. I know that sometimes I find myself remembering things that happened years ago and still getting upset about them, even though rationally I know it's totally pointless. But feelings don't really respond to logic, so I've learned to just shrug and accept that there are some unwelcome feelings that live in my head sometimes. Sort of like with meditating, where you concentrate on the breath and if a distraction comes into your mind you're supposed to acknowledge it and let it exist rather than concentrate on trying to banish it, which only serves to distract you further from concentrating on your breath.

Maybe instead of trying to subtract feelings, you could try to add some new ones into the mix. Like, accept that you have these negative feelings, but invite some more positive feelings, like the thought of that guy on the reddit thread who got more successful with women in his late 20s. Or when you see an attractive woman, in addition to the feeling of fear, try to add a feeling of pleasure in seeing beauty.
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Post by Enail on Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:26 pm

I agree with Caffeinated, I think low-pressure practice dealing with those feelings is a smart thing to do. It sounds like pretty tough going, though, so don't push yourself harder than you can manage, it's okay to just do a little at a time.

I'm not sure if this is a useful angle to take at all, but it sounds like you feel like present happiness is inevitably lessened by past unhappinesses - that even if you were totally 100% happy with your current sex life at, say, 25, it would be ruined in some way by the fact that you weren't having sex at, say, 16. Is that how feelings tend to work for you, that what you feel in any given situation is really strongly connected to past experiences as well as the one's you're experiencing right now?  

If so, maybe it would help a little to practice focusing on your immediate sensations, so that you'd know that you'll be better able to enjoy future happiness regardless of how you've felt in the past? I've heard that it's easiest to practice that by starting with noticing physical sensations; your breathing, what you hear, the feeling of the chair you're sitting on, that kind of thing.

(Also, I have many candidates in life for my least favourite person; you're not on the list Razz)
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Post by UristMcBunny on Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:48 pm

Yeah, the process you tried out sounds like a really good thing - not easy, but good - but your friend? Not a helpful person, there. For one thing, you were left having to process and deal with the feelings and thoughts generated by the woman you saw AND the feelings and thoughts generated as a result of your friend basically twisting the knife in even deeper.

It sounds like the situation ended up being really quite overwhelming for you. Do you have any friends you could have with you next time who can be trusted to not make things worse?

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Post by Guest on Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:24 pm

Unfortunately, I don't have a whole lot of advice for ya since I'm tryna deal with similar anxieties although differing problems. All I can do is relate and empathize with ya. :\

Glides wrote:Hello, it's everyone's least favorite person here.

Forum: "Not this asshole!"

Anyway, so I decided to take a different route than I usually do and decided to go out to a local coffee shop to hang out with a friend of mine, in the hopes that I'd see a cute girl so I could actually process the feelings I have whenever I see one.

It worked exactly as planned. A cute girl walked in, and I immediately felt the familiar rush of insecurity and self-hatred that is my natural response to that.

Breathe, for the love of all that is holy remember to breathe. D:

Glides wrote:
But instead of trying to psych myself up and talk to her and fail (primarily because I'd be such a nervous wreck that she'd be repulsed by me even before I got over there, which happens every time), I simply allowed myself to process every individual thought and took the pressure off to talk to her.

I had no rational reason not to at least attempt to talk to her, in the hopes that she'd be stupid enough to fall for me (I'm describing everything in the moment, shush).

I think I have an actual phobia of attractive women.

Man, I don't even know if that's possible. D: I will be honest, I have no quandaries about talking to women or seeing attractive women. I do have quandaries about approaching strange attractive women (sometimes), like I can't for the life of me approach for shit, so I feel ya there. I get bad anxiety asking out someone that I know until I do it! And when I do, it's pretty liberating, actually, pretty weird.

Glides wrote:
Anyway, my friend notices this and starts getting on my case about it: "Why the fuck are you so scared?" "She's not gonna bite." "It's so fucking easy, Glides, easiest thing to do." He was completely dumbfounded, like he always is, whenever I see a cute girl and literally shut down.

That's what a friend of mine said once who just so happens to be a woman too lol. I simply respond with, "I know that, I just don't ever know what to say."

Glides wrote:
Anyway, about ten minutes ago, I got hit with another "wave of insecurity" and suddenly all of the old "you filthy virgin" feelings came back at once, to the point where I was on the floor hyperventilating because it hurt that bad.

Actually, I was reading a Reddit post about a guy in his late twenties who had experience but had gotten it only a couple years earlier. Despite having sex frequently now, girls had no interest in him in high school and college. And I realized that it was my best case scenario and that's what started it up.

What the hell do I do when I get like this? By trying to get rid of it, I tend to rile myself up and that results in angry depressing rants on the forums and me treating everyone horribly. I don't know how to get rid of that insecurity. I think my life would be better if I could somehow not regret having no sex in high school.

I don't get hit with waves of insecurity, but I do get hit with waves of either realizations or self-loathing because I suck with girls or I'll read stuff here or somewhere else. Last night I had a bit of an episode, it sucks.

I'm in the same boat as that reddit guy, girls simply don't like me (or so it seems). What keeps me up at night is... well, I don't want to say anything to make you or myself upset. But I'm also with you there, I read about that stuff, I think about it, I get depressed more than anything and I just keep inside because no amount of ranting on the internet is gonna help anything. No amount of tears I shed because of my idiocy will do anything.

We just gotta get back up and keep moving forward.

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Post by tseug1 on Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:05 am

Actually, I was reading a Reddit post about a guy in his late twenties who had experience but had gotten it only a couple years earlier. Despite having sex frequently now, girls had no interest in him in high school and college. And I realized that it was my best case scenario and that's what started it up.

What the hell do I do when I get like this? By trying to get rid of it, I tend to rile myself up and that results in angry depressing rants on the forums and me treating everyone horribly. I don't know how to get rid of that insecurity. I think my life would be better if I could somehow not regret having no sex in high school.

i look at this forum quietly as it is very interesting, but when I saw this i had to register so I could post this. You might have heard it many times before, I don't know, but maybe hearing it from many different people might help make it more believable.

Ok pal, I am not a nerd, I am not a geek or part of any subculture, I wasn't in high school either, I am in my 30s now. I have been told I am objectively beautiful and have no social issues at all.

I did not have sex in high school. I did not have sex until was 21. Many of my friends had the same experience. In fact the number of people at my high school who had sex before they left school was vanishingly small. They all claimed they had but in that "my girlfriend lives in Canada and she's 24 and an underwear model and we did it in a cave during a storm" way. This was in a country where the age of consent is 16 not 18.

I think you are perhaps telling yourself that you are damaged goods when in the no sexual experience in your teens is TOTALLY normal. A lot of the people who post on these forums describe themselves in a way that makes me think they are not necessarily clued in to the 'run of the mill teenaged sexual frustration' and issues meeting someone they fancy as young adults because of scheduling issues and population constraints and think they are abnormal!

Clearly the fear of interacting with women is an issue for you that you will need to work on but please stop beating yourself up for not having sex at high school cos that's normal! A lot of people lie, mate!!!!!!!!

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Post by Guest on Mon Dec 22, 2014 2:51 am

[quote="Caffeinated"]
Glides wrote:Anyway, my friend notices this and starts getting on my case about it: "Why the fuck are you so scared?" "She's not gonna bite." "It's so fucking easy, Glides, easiest thing to do." He was completely dumbfounded, like he always is, whenever I see a cute girl and literally shut down.

Maybe tell your friend not to act like a bag of dicks. What he did is not cool. And not helpful.

He wasn't doing any of it to be mean, he was just completely dumbstruck by the idea of someone being scared to talk to a girl. To him, the entire process is "talk to girl, girl likes me, we fuck." It's incredibly easy for him, even though he'll humblebrag or deny it when confronted about it. So when he's talking about how easy it is, he's thinking "this is so easy for me, it's easy for everyone. Talking to women is like walking, almost everyone can do it."

Enail wrote:I agree with Caffeinated, I think low-pressure practice dealing with those feelings is a smart thing to do. It sounds like pretty tough going, though, so don't push yourself harder than you can manage, it's okay to just do a little at a time.

I'm not sure if this is a useful angle to take at all, but it sounds like you feel like present happiness is inevitably lessened by past unhappinesses - that even if you were totally 100% happy with your current sex life at, say, 25, it would be ruined in some way by the fact that you weren't having sex at, say, 16. Is that how feelings tend to work for you, that what you feel in any given situation is really strongly connected to past experiences as well as the one's you're experiencing right now?  

That's exactly how it works. It also tends to devalue all past accomplishments because those are inevitable lesser. I remember being congratulated for graduating high school and thinking "almost everybody does that, it's not a fucking accomplishment." I got congratulated for graduating high school with a 3.8 GPA and remember thinking "but other people got 4.0s, what does it matter?" Of course, it dropped an entire letter grade (currently resting at 3.0) after getting into film school, making me statistically at my most stupid.

Even if I win an Oscar, I'll just say "well Spielberg won two of them."

Either things always work out in my head or nothing ever does. I could be fulfilling every sexual fantasy of mine at 25 and I'd still think, "well nice job overcompensating for being a virgin in high school, loser."

I think the idea of a girl genuinely being attracted to me is so foreign that I psych myself out. The idea of a woman being sexually aroused by my body seems next to impossible.

UristMcBunny wrote:Yeah, the process you tried out sounds like a really good thing - not easy, but good - but your friend?  Not a helpful person, there.  For one thing, you were left having to process and deal with the feelings and thoughts generated by the woman you saw AND the feelings and thoughts generated as a result of your friend basically twisting the knife in even deeper.

It sounds like the situation ended up being really quite overwhelming for you.  Do you have any friends you could have with you next time who can be trusted to not make things worse?

Probably not, I don't really have a single friend who's objectively "bad" at dating and sex. Either they wouldn't understand or they'd mock me. Only a small minority of the population are truly horrible at dating.

[quote="The Mikey"]

Glides wrote:
Anyway, my friend notices this and starts getting on my case about it: "Why the fuck are you so scared?" "She's not gonna bite." "It's so fucking easy, Glides, easiest thing to do." He was completely dumbfounded, like he always is, whenever I see a cute girl and literally shut down.

That's what a friend of mine said once who just so happens to be a woman too lol. I simply respond with, "I know that, I just don't ever know what to say."

That's exactly the problem! i remember reading the Doc's article about how to cold approach girls, and it was completely useless. You basically introduce yourself directly. That doesn't work, it just gets you weird looks and forced conversation until they find an excuse to walk away. It's far too direct for a physically unattractive shy man. I am working uphill whenever I talk to any attractive woman, with the knowledge that she's being approached by a deficient human specimen. She's got far better hanging around, in all cases.

This is gonna sound sexist, but here goes: a lot of times (not every time), I notice that the women who complain about no men liking them are completely oblivious to the hoardes of men who want them. Now, this is not saying that any of them are quality, but a lot of times, they're too scared to tell guys who clearly like them that they like them, and it tends to be oblivious between them. A woman is more likely to have knowledge that she is attractive. With guys, unless you are smoking, you immediately understand that the physically unattractive man's only option is to hope to god she's stupid enough to have low standards. It's deeply disrespectful, but unfortunately true. You actually have to deceive a woman into thinking you're much more impressive than you actually are (not like PUA peacocking bullshit, you don't lie about anything except sexual experience). This isn't women's fault, you can hardly blame them for doing exactly what you would do if you were in their shoes. And I'm not saying that this is the case for all women, just that it's more likely. Accepting hate mail now for not sharing a popular opinion.

Which is why a lot of ugly guys tend to be really witty, because they're compensating for what they naturally lack. Nice muscles help, but other factors can't be fixed.

But getting back to the point, that shit only works if you're a shy attractive guy. If you're an unattractive guy, you have an equal chance of getting a girlfriend or winning the lottery. It's a literal crapshoot, you are relying on chance and poor judgment. I know exactly how wrong that sounds, but the only way anyone will ever like an unattractive man is if they have low standards. Yes he can be sweet and caring and loving and all that, but you can't fuck a personality, and a personality can't cuddle with you. So there. Personality is the dressing, looks are the salad. Say I'm wrong all you want, but it takes being abusive or creepy for anyone to be repulsed by attractive people.

And getting mad about that truth says a lot about you as a person. It means you're in denial.

Besides, I've never had a single girl who liked me who didn't have some extreme body image/self-esteem/mental problems. As the Doc says, if everyone who likes you is crazy, there's something wrong with you. Not a single one of them liked themselves or found themselves attractive. I deserved every one of them.

I do apologize for using mainly male examples, it's pretty unisex stuff. Men get rejected, women get raped. Y'all have it worse.

Seriously, how the fuck do I introduce myself? "Hi there, you're pretty cool, wanna talk?" As the Doc would reccomend. I've seen the Doc, he's a pretty sharp looking dude.

I blame the radiation or something.

[quote="tseug1"]


I did not have sex in high school. I did not have sex until  was 21. Many of my friends had the same experience. In fact the number of people at my high school who had sex before they left school was vanishingly small. They all claimed they had but in that "my girlfriend lives in Canada and she's 24 and an underwear model and we did it in a cave during a storm" way. This was in a country where the age of consent is 16 not 18.

I think you are perhaps telling yourself that you are damaged goods when in the no sexual experience in your teens is TOTALLY normal. A lot of the people who post on these forums describe themselves in a way that makes me think they are not necessarily clued in to the 'run of the mill teenaged sexual frustration' and issues meeting someone they fancy as young adults because of scheduling issues and population constraints and think they are abnormal!

Clearly the fear of interacting with women is an issue for you that you will need to work on but please stop beating yourself up for not having sex at high school cos that's normal! A lot of people lie, mate!!!!!!!!

So there wasn't a single couple at your high school? Nobody dated? Did you go to a Christian school as a kid?

But let's just say you were referring to just PIV sex. That's still excluding making out, oral, anal, a whole ton of stuff. I only ever got as far as second base, and that was only with two girls collectively, neither of which were particularly nice experiences. No truth or dare, no spin the bottle, no seven minutes in heaven, nothing.

Collectively comparing what I've heard from my friends that obviously isn't bullshit, the average is generally three sexual partners.

So I'm going to continue beating myself up about not having sex in high school until nobody cares any longer about that.

I mean, hey, if I could just wean my sexual and romantic desires altogether, I wouldn't mind that. Actually, I'd prefer that. "Giving up" on dating and sex is hard when you constantly want to do both.

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Post by Guest on Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:02 am

Glides wrote:
That's exactly the problem! i remember reading the Doc's article about how to cold approach girls, and it was completely useless. You basically introduce yourself directly. That doesn't work, it just gets you weird looks and forced conversation until they find an excuse to walk away. It's far too direct for a physically unattractive shy man. I am working uphill whenever I talk to any attractive woman, with the knowledge that she's being approached by a deficient human specimen. She's got far better hanging around, in all cases.

Well, despite still being incredibly clueless a lot of times the direct approach has been effective for me, albeit on different levels.

I'll elaborate: I have a weakness for redheads, so please bear with me here, back in high school there was this cute redhead that I'd see in the lunch line all time time. She was a senior, same as me and I'd always see her crammed in a line close to mine and one day I was gonna invite her to my line since there was really no one else and so she wouldn't be so cramped up. So, me being the idiot I am, I wussed out, fine whatever, despite that I really wanted to talk to her, never did, never saw her again. Fast forward two years and who do I see (cue theme music) but the same high school redhead coming out of one of the labs in my future workplace. A few days later I see her at the student center walk and I sat down on a couch about five feet away so I could study (I had an exam on Catcher in the Rye the next day) and as she was leaving, I thought to myself "It's now or never, you dolt." So I did it, I stopped her for a second and asked if she had gone to my high school, etc. Her name was Lauren. Felt good discovering that, but I was indeed terrified.

Then a few days later there was another redhead I'd seen around campus and I see her sitting at a workstation, so I park my butt next to her and I'm browsing stuff and before she was leaving, bam, ask her her name, etc. Oddly enough, her name was also Lauren and to make matters even funnier, the next semester she was in my public speaking class but didn't remember me. Laughing

The point I'm trying to make is, if employed wisely the direct approach can be very effective, just don't be pushy about it I suppose.

Glides wrote:
Seriously, how the fuck do I introduce myself? "Hi there, you're pretty cool, wanna talk?" As the Doc would reccomend. I've seen the Doc, he's a pretty sharp looking dude.

I blame the radiation or something.


I forget that's definitely an option. I remember that same semester I said something similar, except it was more along the lines of "Hi I'm Mikey, what's your name?" I had quite a few extra confidence boosts from me learning how to swim that I approached another nerdy-ish girl (also a redhead Razz) simply to get her name outside a Math lab. And her name was Robin.

Holy crap, why do I forget I did all that?

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Post by Hirundo Bos on Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:19 pm

Glides, like others here I think the thing you did was smart. Controlled exposure is a generally recommended way to deal with and eventually master a phobia. When you let those waves of emotion hit you, after a while you'll have the cance to get used to them... The chance to learn that when waves are done raising, they will fall, and that the rise and fall follow a somewhat predictable rythm. And after a while, even the high points might become more manageable.

The thing with phobias, the reason they can be so persistent, is that our natural respons to that level of fear is to avoid the thing if possible, or if not, withdraw as soon as you can, at least before the worst of the waves arrive. And so we rarely get to experience the other side, where he waves are receding, the emotions are processed, and we are still there.

But as others also have said, it is important to find the right level of exposure... too little, and there will be nothing to learn from it, too much, and there will be more harm than gain. It's very much like physical excercise...

Too much, in this case, would be 1) if you get so overwhelmed by the emotions that you end up doing something harmful, 2) if the urge to withdraw before before you're through becomes to strong to resist.

I would also like to add that fear is an emotion designed to override everything else. It tends to seriously impair the ability to do complex and unfamiliar things and social interaction is complex in every case, and unfamiliar a lot the time. So trying to speak with someone in a state of high fear... might not work out so well.

In fact I think that what DNL underestimate is not so much the importance of attractiveness, because whether you believe it or not, tastes vary. A lot. But I think he does underestimate the difference between nervousness and right out panic. Nervousness up to a certain level is in fact stimulating rather than debilitating (and more so, I suspect, for extroverted people). But when the fear is so strong it becomes a challenge to speak coherently, one might want try something less intimidating than Just Going For It.
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Post by Caffeinated on Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:28 pm

Glides wrote:I think the idea of a girl genuinely being attracted to me is so foreign that I psych myself out. The idea of a woman being sexually aroused by my body seems next to impossible.

If you yourself are only attracted to women and never to men, and live in a culture in which female beauty is assumed as a given whereas male beauty is treated as nonexistent/a punchline/extremely rare, then it's no surprise that you might feel that way. But people who are attracted to men, how shall I say this, we find men attractive. That includes male bodies. That includes male bodies that don't belong to celebrities or look identical to those that belong to celebrities. Just because you are not aroused by bodies that look like yours does not put that kind of body outside the realm of attractiveness, and I hate the cultural messages that try to make people believe that stuff.

Glides wrote:This is gonna sound sexist, but here goes: a lot of times (not every time), I notice that the women who complain about no men liking them are completely oblivious to the hoardes of men who want them.

I have found that men who feel unattractive are also often surprisingly oblivious to the people who are actually interested. I suspect that having a firm self-image as a person who nobody could be attracted to has a strong correlation with missing any but the most overt signs of attraction (the kind of overt signs that generally only occur in fiction and almost never in real life).

Glides wrote:If you're an unattractive guy, you have an equal chance of getting a girlfriend or winning the lottery.

I think that is just a silly thing to say. In day to day life, we see many unattractive people who have a girlfriend or boyfriend or spouse or significant other, but we see so vanishingly few lottery winners that the number might as well be zero. (Unless you're talking about winning one dollar on a scratch-off ticket or something like that, in which case it might be reasonably accurate, since most people who buy scratch-off tickets will over time win at least one of those types.)

Glides wrote:Personality is the dressing, looks are the salad.

Another silly thing to say. Looks are the salad? No. No they're not. I don't even know how to argue against something like that, given its off-ness.

If you want to state that the only thing that matters to you in a potential girlfriend is her looks, that's one thing. I wouldn't argue with you about your personal tastes and preferences, because you are the expert on your own subjective likes and dislikes. But to state something like that as a universal law that applies to other people who don't live inside your own mind is just not a thing you can do.

Glides wrote:I've never had a single girl who liked me who didn't have some extreme body image/self-esteem/mental problems.  ... Not a single one of them liked themselves or found themselves attractive.

One of our culture's big pastimes is making girls feel bad about themselves, in particular about their body and looks and attractiveness. That cultural machine is extremely effective. If all the girls who've liked you so far have been young (defined for my purposes as under age 30), then it's no surprise that their self-esteem would be low.

Glides wrote:No truth or dare, no spin the bottle, no seven minutes in heaven, nothing.

Do people actually do any of that stuff outside of fiction?
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Post by Guest on Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:45 pm

Caffeinated wrote:
Do people actually do any of that stuff outside of fiction?

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Uhh, uhm, I-I have... I played Naked Truth or Dare once last year.

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Post by Caffeinated on Mon Dec 22, 2014 6:58 pm

The Mikey wrote:
Caffeinated wrote:
Do people actually do any of that stuff outside of fiction?

Waves of Insecurity [no rants this time, promise] Giphy

Uhh, uhm, I-I have... I played Naked Truth or Dare once last year.

Naked Truth or Dare! Oh my.
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Post by Enail on Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:01 pm

Glides wrote:
enail wrote:
I'm not sure if this is a useful angle to take at all, but it sounds like you feel like present happiness is inevitably lessened by past unhappinesses - that even if you were totally 100% happy with your current sex life at, say, 25, it would be ruined in some way by the fact that you weren't having sex at, say, 16. Is that how feelings tend to work for you, that what you feel in any given situation is really strongly connected to past experiences as well as the one's you're experiencing right now?  

That's exactly how it works. It also tends to devalue all past accomplishments because those are inevitable lesser. I remember being congratulated for graduating high school and thinking "almost everybody does that, it's not a fucking accomplishment." I got congratulated for graduating high school with a 3.8 GPA and remember thinking "but other people got 4.0s, what does it matter?" Of course, it dropped an entire letter grade (currently resting at 3.0) after getting into film school, making me statistically at my most stupid.

Even if I win an Oscar, I'll just say "well Spielberg won two of them."

Either things always work out in my head or nothing ever does. I could be fulfilling every sexual fantasy of mine at 25 and I'd still think, "well nice job overcompensating for being a virgin in high school, loser."

I think the idea of a girl genuinely being attracted to me is so foreign that I psych myself out. The idea of a woman being sexually aroused by my body seems next to impossible.

Alright, it sounds like you realize this is something your jerkbrain is doing to you rather than an intrinsic truth, right? You can only live forward, and at any given moment, you can only be the person you are at that moment, so it's just pointless cruelty to deny yourself the joy or pride you could get from that moment, the hope you could feel for the future.  Stay aware that this is your jerkbrain talking; this is something you can work on changing so that you'll be able to enjoy future good things that happen.

Glides wrote:
That's exactly the problem! i remember reading the Doc's article about how to cold approach girls, and it was completely useless. You basically introduce yourself directly. That doesn't work, it just gets you weird looks and forced conversation until they find an excuse to walk away. It's far too direct for a physically unattractive shy man. I am working uphill whenever I talk to any attractive woman, with the knowledge that she's being approached by a deficient human specimen. She's got far better hanging around, in all cases.  

This is something that bothers me about a lot of dating advice. Cold approach is not easy, and it's not the way that the majority of people meet partners, and honestly, it's always seemed like a kind of awkward thing to do outside of a lukewarm or warmer context.  I can see why it's a good thing to try for some people struggling with dating (it's a nice concrete way to throw yourself into practicing talking to people you're attracted to, if you can get comfortable at it, you'll have acquired some very useful skills...), but it's not a basic social skill or the minimum bar to meet to be able to date. If you're having trouble with it, that's not a sign that you're hopeless.

I'm not going to respond to the stuff about attractiveness, you know perfectly well by now I think you're totally wrong about how this stuff works and I don't think telling you so again is going to convince you. :\




Caffeinated wrote:
Glides wrote:No truth or dare, no spin the bottle, no seven minutes in heaven, nothing.

Do people actually do any of that stuff outside of fiction?

I played truth or dare a few times (and Glides, you got further without truth or dare than I ever did with it in high school)
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Post by Guest on Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:47 pm

Caffeinated wrote:
Glides wrote:This is gonna sound sexist, but here goes: a lot of times (not every time), I notice that the women who complain about no men liking them are completely oblivious to the hoardes of men who want them.

I have found that men who feel unattractive are also often surprisingly oblivious to the people who are actually interested. I suspect that having a firm self-image as a person who nobody could be attracted to has a strong correlation with missing any but the most overt signs of attraction (the kind of overt signs that generally only occur in fiction and almost never in real life).

Yeah, just chiming in here to say that this is a pretty gender independent trend. At least, it is from my observations. I have a handful of friends of either gender that have remarked that no one likes them but I know for a fact there's people who have a thing for them.

You know that GIF of the two women at some MMA/body building competition on the winners podium, with one of them giving the other the whole 'All my yes' oogle and lip bite? Well, I've seen a woman do that to guy and he lamented shortly after that no one likes him or is into him. Totally oblivious to it.

Of course, my jerkbrain - and probably many others - say 'I'm the exception, clearly!', but, it's your jerkbrain. You can tell it to get fucked. It doesn't speak for you. It speaks at you to try and convince you the worst about yourself is the absolute truth.

Glides wrote:
tseug1 wrote:I did not have sex in high school. I did not have sex until  was 21. Many of my friends had the same experience. In fact the number of people at my high school who had sex before they left school was vanishingly small. They all claimed they had but in that "my girlfriend lives in Canada and she's 24 and an underwear model and we did it in a cave during a storm" way. This was in a country where the age of consent is 16 not 18.

I think you are perhaps telling yourself that you are damaged goods when in the no sexual experience in your teens is TOTALLY normal. A lot of the people who post on these forums describe themselves in a way that makes me think they are not necessarily clued in to the 'run of the mill teenaged sexual frustration' and issues meeting someone they fancy as young adults because of scheduling issues and population constraints and think they are abnormal!

Clearly the fear of interacting with women is an issue for you that you will need to work on but please stop beating yourself up for not having sex at high school cos that's normal! A lot of people lie, mate!!!!!!!!

So there wasn't a single couple at your high school? Nobody dated? Did you go to a Christian school as a kid?

But let's just say you were referring to just PIV sex. That's still excluding making out, oral, anal, a whole ton of stuff. I only ever got as far as second base, and that was only with two girls collectively, neither of which were particularly nice experiences. No truth or dare, no spin the bottle, no seven minutes in heaven, nothing.

Collectively comparing what I've heard from my friends that obviously isn't bullshit, the average is generally three sexual partners.

So I'm going to continue beating myself up about not having sex in high school until nobody cares any longer about that.

I mean, hey, if I could just wean my sexual and romantic desires altogether, I wouldn't mind that. Actually, I'd prefer that. "Giving up" on dating and sex is hard when you constantly want to do both.

I know this isn't exactly gonna help, but I'll say it anyway just in case it does: I didn't get anywhere near second base during high school. I don't even know, to this day, what the bases even are - (second base it kissing or boobs or something?). Admittedly, it may be because it's an American thing based on baseball and I live in Australia, but it doesn't change the fact I went through high school with absolutely nothing. Zero. Zip. Nada.

And, there was a whole mess of stuff going on at school. Making out, definitely PIV and all that. Even one case of a couple sitting at a corner desk in the computer labs and giving each other handjobs. I wish I was making that last one up, because that's just really fucking stupid. It was during a class and they would have had their asses handed to them if they got caught.

Anyway, this brings me to a question: do you hold other people (I suppose specifically guys, but it doesn't matter really) to the same kind of crushing standard? As in, if others missed out in high school, do you consider them fucked or they are irrelevant to your problem?

Both sides come from comparing yourself to others a little too much, but having your own differing standards to everyone else is the kind of thing that can put way too much pressure on a person because you always have to be better and even when you are, your own goalposts change and you feel fucked even when you've made great strides. It's what I do and it's not good.

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Post by Guest on Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:21 pm

Caffeinated wrote:
Naked Truth or Dare! Oh my.

Yep! Shiny/thrilled Purely by accident though and not as fun as you think (well, for me) because there was only one girl and two dudes and nothing really dirty happened anyway.

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Post by SandalsSandalson on Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:05 am

I feel like the internet has this kind of fixation on the idea of the "cold approach," but honestly, I don't think it's necessarily that useful to a lot of people, and could even become a kind of negative reinforcer for some people as they end up repeatedly "striking out" and feeling like there's something wrong with them, when it's really just that most strangers probably aren't going to connect with each other enough to want to date each other. Especially when they're in line at Starbucks or wherever.

Anyway, I know that this is just reiterating stuff that's been said, but people have sex for the first time at all sorts of different ages, and usually all that it means is that that was when they happened to meet someone that they ended up connecting with in that way. I also think people tend to get more attractive in some ways as they get older because they end up accruing more life experiences and develop strong character and what not. Which is attractive to people.

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Post by Gman on Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:36 am

Listen, Glides, I don't have really have much to add here that hasn't been already written by the good other folks here. I just wanted to add that, just like you, I haven't really experienced any kind of anything even remotley romantic during high-school. Hell, I was never really all that interested in girls until I got recruited into the army at the age of 18. I had my first meaningful experience ever (making out) at the age of 21 and I had my first relationship at the age of 25.... if I am not mistaken you are barley 20 yourself.... so I think you can now tell yourself that you also personally know people who didn't have any kind of romantic experience during high school and yet turned out just fine.


MapWater wrote:Both sides come from comparing yourself to others a little too much, but having your own differing standards to everyone else is the kind of thing that can put way too much pressure on a person because you always have to be better and even when you are, your own goalposts change and you feel fucked even when you've made great strides. It's what I do and it's not good.


Guilty as charged here as well. I am every now and then thinking that I am somehow "back to square one" ever since my ex left me, because I can't seem to find someone else to be with. This is why I also need to constantly remind myself just how far I have made since my "bad old days" and that while I haven't found anything new since, I still need to just look back and see just HOW MUCH I HAVE ACCOMPLISHED since then!
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Post by BasedBuzzed on Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:35 am

More averages to obsess over: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/sex/sexual-health-and-advice/8958520/Average-man-has-9-sexual-partners-in-lifetime-women-have-4.html

Also, I had my first partner at 20, you've made out with dudettes already and you passed up a few opportunities for sex because it didn't feel right. You are going to be perfectly okay and probably peak slightly above the average number of partners(which is exaggerated anyway).

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Post by Guest on Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:28 pm

Hirundo Bos wrote:

Too much, in this case, would be 1) if you get so overwhelmed by the emotions that you end up doing something harmful, 2) if the urge to withdraw before before you're through becomes to strong to resist.

Unfortunately, I'm well acquainted with this. I tend to give up really easily. I've literally ran out of places because a cute girl noticed me and gave me the distinctive "you are below me, worm" sneer. I've begged friends to leave a place because I saw a cute girl, and they'd naturally refuse to do so. It already takes enough energy pretending that attractive women don't scare me and that I have a decent amount of sexual experience for someone my age (the trick to doing so: no more than three and only missionary with each imaginary girl).

But let's say I'm in a situation in which an attractive woman is talking to me for whatever reason. I'll either find an excuse to leave (as in, I'll abruptly walk off with no warning) or I might snap and begin insulting her repeatedly until she's truly disgusted with me and walks away. Luckily, the latter hasn't happened very often. But whenever I'm overwhelmed, I have to be alone. I'm overwhelmed every time I see an attractive girl that I don't already know.

I would also like to add that fear is an emotion designed to override everything else. It tends to seriously impair the ability to do complex and unfamiliar things and social interaction is complex in every case, and unfamiliar a lot the time. So trying to speak with someone in a state of high fear... might not work out so well.

In fact I think that what DNL underestimate is not so much the importance of attractiveness, because whether you believe it or not, tastes vary. A lot. But I think he does underestimate the difference between nervousness and right out panic. Nervousness up to a certain level is in fact stimulating rather than debilitating (and more so, I suspect, for extroverted people). But when the fear is so strong it becomes a challenge to speak coherently, one might want try something less intimidating than Just Going For It.

Well that's the problem, I don't know how to get calm enough that I can talk to a girl without completely flipping out. I know that they won't bite, and at best I'll just get a bored response and a "god, he's so fucking boring" expression, but it's an irrational fear. I hate rejection that much.

Tastes don't vary, it's simply the person's level of self-esteem and how desperate they are to find a mate. You'd hardly date someone who was six hundred pounds, even if said person was a saint. You wouldn't date a burn victim either. And yes, there's exceptions to every rule, but I'm referring to the majority of shallow human beings such as myself. Sure, that doesn't mean that only those with tanned muscles and pleasing genitals get some, but after a certain point of unattractiveness, romantic prospects almost entirely disappear. What I'm saying is that I'm past that point, I would be a Red Piller if not for my own knowledge of my inherent ugliness, inside and out.

Personally, I hate nervousness in any and all forms. I despise feeling it. I don't think Doc ever panicked when he talked to a girl, even before his Pick Up Artist days. Nervous, yes. Literally having panic attacks because of them, no.

[quote="Caffeinated"]

If you yourself are only attracted to women and never to men, and live in a culture in which female beauty is assumed as a given whereas male beauty is treated as nonexistent/a punchline/extremely rare, then it's no surprise that you might feel that way. But people who are attracted to men, how shall I say this, we find men attractive. That includes male bodies. That includes male bodies that don't belong to celebrities or look identical to those that belong to celebrities. Just because you are not aroused by bodies that look like yours does not put that kind of body outside the realm of attractiveness, and I hate the cultural messages that try to make people believe that stuff. [/quote[

I'm not doubting that women find male bodies attractive that aren't celebrities, but I'm saying that I'm outside the realm of attractiveness. Body wise, I'm a sheer "eh," but the face is a monstrosity and I can't exactly fix that. That plus panic attacks plus low self-esteem equals why I'm single.


I have found that men who feel unattractive are also often surprisingly oblivious to the people who are actually interested. I suspect that having a firm self-image as a person who nobody could be attracted to has a strong correlation with missing any but the most overt signs of attraction (the kind of overt signs that generally only occur in fiction and almost never in real life).

I'm sure that happens to a lot of people, but I can assure you that I'm not one of them. One of my favorite things to do to calm myself down is pretend that the entire world secretly thinks I'm the sexiest man who ever lived and they're all so intimidated by my sexiness that they won't tell me. But there's none of that in the real world, I've studied indicators of interest religiously over the past couple years and I've gotten almost none. There's currently not a single human being on the planet who is physically attracted to me, and it's sadly not a hyperbole. A few girls have in the past (but not physically, just because they had no standards and were desperate for intimacy of some kind), but there has never been a single woman who has ever wanted me physically or sexually. Even with the improvements I've made to myself.

It's a self-image confirmed by real life, by the constant looks of boredom and apathy I get. I know what it looks like when someone's attracted to someone else, and I never get those signs (at least not in the last several months) I'm not one of those delusional Red Pillers who convinces himself that he's sexy and all women should want him. I'm not insane, and I'd rather be realistic.

Oh fuck, I'm ranting again. I should delete all of this.

Glides wrote:Personality is the dressing, looks are the salad.

Another silly thing to say. Looks are the salad? No. No they're not. I don't even know how to argue against something like that, given its off-ness.

Again, you wouldn't date a morbidly obese person or a burn victim or someone with Down syndrome. They are physically deformed. I'm sure that all three of them are the sweetest people ever, but you still wouldn't fuck any of them (you being a generality here).

I'm not saying that if you're an asshole, you can get away with being attractive. Nor am I saying that you have to be a supermodel. I'm just saying that you have to be sexually compatible in order to have a good relationship, and you have to be physically attracted in order for that to happen. What's so absurd about that, that's common sense.

If I was wrong, then life would be like that godawful movie Shallow Hal. But then again, I don't believe in inner beauty, so maybe I'm a bit biased.

One of our culture's big pastimes is making girls feel bad about themselves, in particular about their body and looks and attractiveness. That cultural machine is extremely effective. If all the girls who've liked you so far have been young (defined for my purposes as under age 30), then it's no surprise that their self-esteem would be low.


Let me rephrase that. Obviously, girls are taught to hate themselves. But none of the girls were with me for any other reason in that they wanted intimacy and didn't think they deserved better than me (who we have already confirmed through years of depressing posts is pretty pathetic). Having self-esteem so bad that I am your last desperate resort is past basic self-hatred, that's self-loathing and a death wish.

That is sort of the catch 22 here: I want to be with a girl, but any girl who likes me is clearly a fucking idiot. I don't know how to reconcile that since I despise myself more than anything else in the universe. I actually like the Holocaust more than I like myself, no joke. I like 9/11 more, I like Kim Jong Un more, I like Justin Bieber more, I like everything else more than I like myself.


Enail wrote:

Alright, it sounds like you realize this is something your jerkbrain is doing to you rather than an intrinsic truth, right? You can only live forward, and at any given moment, you can only be the person you are at that moment, so it's just pointless cruelty to deny yourself the joy or pride you could get from that moment, the hope you could feel for the future.  Stay aware that this is your jerkbrain talking; this is something you can work on changing so that you'll be able to enjoy future good things that happen.

Well how the fuck do I change that? I already know your answer.

I'm really sick, Enail.


I'm not going to respond to the stuff about attractiveness, you know perfectly well by now I think you're totally wrong about how this stuff works and I don't think telling you so again is going to convince you. :\

I don't even remember what you said last time. I mean, it's not like looks mean absolutely nothing, the Doc himself has said that looks are important. Thinking that they're not is what breeds Red Pillers. I'll just say that it's my complete self-hatred and how blatantly obvious it is wherever I go that disgusts women.


[quote="MapWater"]

Yeah, just chiming in here to say that this is a pretty gender independent trend. At least, it is from my observations. I have a handful of friends of either gender that have remarked that no one likes them but I know for a fact there's people who have a thing for them.

You know that GIF of the two women at some MMA/body building competition on the winners podium, with one of them giving the other the whole 'All my yes' oogle and lip bite? Well, I've seen a woman do that to guy and he lamented shortly after that no one likes him or is into him. Totally oblivious to it.

Of course, my jerkbrain - and probably many others - say 'I'm the exception, clearly!', but, it's your jerkbrain. You can tell it to get fucked. It doesn't speak for you. It speaks at you to try and convince you the worst about yourself is the absolute truth.
[

I remember one time asking my friend to tell me over a three month period if any woman was ever attracted to me because I can't read body language. He reported at the end of the three months that not a single woman we'd met ever was attracted to me. Trust me, it's beyond the jerkbrain here, this is real life. I know what attraction looks like and it's never being directed at me. I know indicators of interest by heart. I know exactly what to look for. I am exactly that repulsive.

Just texted that same guy to confirm it. He's going to say "exactly one person, the crazy schizophrenic girl with an obese impotent boyfriend who was desperate." Because that was the last person to be attracted to me. She was literally schizophrenic, she said that the voices in her head told her to kill her dog in the laundry machine. She believed that she couldn't do any better than me.


[quote]I know this isn't exactly gonna help, but I'll say it anyway just in case it does: I didn't get anywhere near second base during high school. I don't even know, to this day, what the bases even are - (second base it kissing or boobs or something?). Admittedly, it may be because it's an American thing based on baseball and I live in Australia, but it doesn't change the fact I went through high school with absolutely nothing. Zero. Zip. Nada.

And, there was a whole mess of stuff going on at school. Making out, definitely PIV and all that. Even one case of a couple sitting at a corner desk in the computer labs and giving each other handjobs. I wish I was making that last one up, because that's just really fucking stupid. It was during a class and they would have had their asses handed to them if they got caught.

That's literally every high school in America, including mine. A tiny minority of people are still virgins past high school. 90 percent of all people lose their virginity in high school. Trust me, I'm not making shit up here, I actually Googled it for a change. That's exactly why being a virgin past high school is a huge problem when 90% of the population already knows how to fuck and you don't.

"They'll teach you how!" What kind of porno do you think reality is? I love when people say that.

Anyway, this brings me to a question: do you hold other people (I suppose specifically guys, but it doesn't matter really) to the same kind of crushing standard? As in, if others missed out in high school, do you consider them fucked or they are irrelevant to your problem?

Both sides come from comparing yourself to others a little too much, but having your own differing standards to everyone else is the kind of thing that can put way too much pressure on a person because you always have to be better and even when you are, your own goalposts change and you feel fucked even when you've made great strides. It's what I do and it's not good.

I pity every other virgin and I hate myself. It's not exactly fair, and I don't like saying this because it means I'll end up offending a bunch of people who don't deserve it, but it means that we're deficient human beings. Which I know will upset the forum, but someone's gotta take one for the team here. Just like walking and talking, learning how to fuck also has a time limit.

"No it doesn't, anyone can learn!" I can't afford enough hookers to learn, man.

Now it doesn't mean that all virgins past high school are done for, it means that I'm done for, specifically, because I can't speak for anyone but myself.

I have to be the best. I have to be the best at literally everything I do. If I'm not the best, I hate myself. Problem: I will never be the best.

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Post by Enail on Tue Dec 23, 2014 3:35 pm

<mod>Glides, you need to stop trying to tell us what kinds of people no one could ever find attractive. It's untrue and it's cruel. You can believe whatever you want about it, but I don't want to see you continuing to insult people by claiming you know better than they do what they find attractive, and especially not by claiming that certain people are inherently unattractive to everyone. </mod>

(And just so we're clear, me putting on the mod hat is not a sign that you're about to be banned or that everyone here hates you or that I hate you. It's just a sign that you need to stop doing that. Okay?)

Glides wrote:I'm not doubting that women find male bodies attractive that aren't celebrities, but I'm saying that I'm outside the realm of attractiveness. Body wise, I'm a sheer "eh," but the face is a monstrosity and I can't exactly fix that. That plus panic attacks plus low self-esteem equals why I'm single.

I'd really like you to consider the possibility that you don't actually know how attractive your appearance is or not. That you cannot know.  I'm not saying that you should think you're gorgeous - I've never seen you, I have no clue what you really look like. But just keep in mind that you hate yourself; what you see when you look in a mirror is going to be hugely coloured by that, and you may not actually be able to evaluate your appearance with any accuracy.

Glides wrote:
Enail wrote:

Alright, it sounds like you realize this is something your jerkbrain is doing to you rather than an intrinsic truth, right? You can only live forward, and at any given moment, you can only be the person you are at that moment, so it's just pointless cruelty to deny yourself the joy or pride you could get from that moment, the hope you could feel for the future.  Stay aware that this is your jerkbrain talking; this is something you can work on changing so that you'll be able to enjoy future good things that happen.

Well how the fuck do I change that? I already know your answer.

Yep Razz Help if you can get it, practice, patience, and be kind to yourself. Keep practicing, keep working on it a little bit at a time.

Glides wrote:
I'm really sick, Enail.

That's okay. I don't mean "it's okay" like "stop being unhappy, it's no big deal," I know it is a big deal, and that it's really, really hard.  But it doesn't mean you're a bad person or that you're less valuable than anyone else, and it's not your fault. And it doesn't mean you can never feel better or have a good life.

If you can say "I'm really sick," then think about what someone needs when they're sick; they need to rest, they need support and help handling the things their illness keeps them from doing and someone to bring them soup, they might need to see a doctor or go to the hospital, they need to take their time to recover. What they don't need is someone blaming them for being sick or being impatient with them for not getting better instantly or treating them like they're terrible or a freak for not feeling well. It's okay to be sick. It's a shitty thing to have happen, but it's okay. You're okay. Be kind to yourself about it.


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Post by Gentleman Johnny on Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:37 pm

Glides, check out Doc's latest article if you haven't already. Everyone else has already hit the good stuff but I'll add this. Be zen. Learn to step back and say "ok, I'm feeling this". Take it apart and examine it from the outside. Once you can get that much distance, to be at a point of "there's this feeling in my head" rather than "I am this feeling", its a lot easier to dissect it and let it go.

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Post by Caffeinated on Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:58 pm

Glides wrote:
I have found that men who feel unattractive are also often surprisingly oblivious to the people who are actually interested. I suspect that having a firm self-image as a person who nobody could be attracted to has a strong correlation with missing any but the most overt signs of attraction (the kind of overt signs that generally only occur in fiction and almost never in real life).

I'm sure that happens to a lot of people, but I can assure you that I'm not one of them. One of my favorite things to do to calm myself down is pretend that the entire world secretly thinks I'm the sexiest man who ever lived and they're all so intimidated by my sexiness that they won't tell me. But there's none of that in the real world, I've studied indicators of interest religiously over the past couple years and I've gotten almost none. There's currently not a single human being on the planet who is physically attracted to me, and it's sadly not a hyperbole. A few girls have in the past (but not physically, just because they had no standards and were desperate for intimacy of some kind), but there has never been a single woman who has ever wanted me physically or sexually. Even with the improvements I've made to myself.

It's a self-image confirmed by real life, by the constant looks of boredom and apathy I get. I know what it looks like when someone's attracted to someone else, and I never get those signs (at least not in the last several months) I'm not one of those delusional Red Pillers who convinces himself that he's sexy and all women should want him. I'm not insane, and I'd rather be realistic.

Unless you have developed a mind-reading superpower, it is literally not possible for you to know that no one is attracted to you. Doesn't matter if you've studied indicators of interest. Do you know what the primary indicator of interest is for shy girls? It's not looking at the person they're into, or trying to turn herself invisible (or even more invisible than she normally tries to make herself) when that person is around. Unless you can actually read the minds of all the women and girls who have ever been around you, you just don't know, because you don't know what they're thinking.

This is a separate issue from the fact that almost everything I've ever seen about so-called indicators of interest struck me as dubious at best. Most of them, I find myself thinking 'I've never done that and I don't think I've ever seen anyone else do that either. Huh, wonder where that idea came from.'

Now, the fact that you literally cannot know whether there are any women who are attracted to you doesn't touch on what probably feels like the more important point. You feel certain that none of the women you're attracted to are attracted back. Maybe they're not. Maybe you have a serious mismatch in attraction, only feeling attracted to people you feel certain couldn't be attracted back (a kind of Groucho Marx 'I wouldn't join any club that would have me as a member' kind of thing). Given some of your remarks about needing to be the best, I suspect that could be the case. Seems like a thing to think about, maybe try to work on.
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Post by Gman on Tue Dec 23, 2014 7:09 pm

Glides wrote:"They'll teach you how!" What kind of porno do you think reality is? I love when people say that.

Glides, I am usually sympthatic with you, but I'll be honest here and say that that sentence pissed me off! Because this is pretty much my first time having sex in a nutshell... and your basically saying that that is strictly fantasy and I am telling you it's not. My first time was with someone patient and who was willing to tell me a few pointers as a start, my job was to be a good student and eventually learn to handle things more on my own as time went by and I got to know that person better. It insults me to hear you saying that it's not true when, once again, I am the living breathing proof that not only that it's true, it can also be pretty freaking amazing if your in the right mindset too! 

So please, stop generalizing your pessimism into other people's experiences and tell them that what they experienced is nothing more than fiction and isn't valid at all silent  . Because I have to say I was a bit offended by that. I know that you are in a bad mindset right now, but still. If you can't even take my word for it that it's true, well then I have nothing more to add to try and convince you otherwise.
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Post by Guest on Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:01 pm

Caffeinated wrote:
If you yourself are only attracted to women and never to men, and live in a culture in which female beauty is assumed as a given whereas male beauty is treated as nonexistent/a punchline/extremely rare, then it's no surprise that you might feel that way. But people who are attracted to men, how shall I say this, we find men attractive. That includes male bodies. That includes male bodies that don't belong to celebrities or look identical to those that belong to celebrities. Just because you are not aroused by bodies that look like yours does not put that kind of body outside the realm of attractiveness, and I hate the cultural messages that try to make people believe that stuff.

That is an excellent point now that I think about it. That made me think about how I've met and seen many women that aren't celebrities who don't have the Victoria's Secret model bodies that people clamor for and I remembered how some of these average women are about as sexy as some of these celeb women (well, to me at least).

So, then I thought to myself, "The same way I look at these women, I'm sure there are women that look at me the same way, there has to be." Which, there is always a distinct possibility that I may be right where I've been wrong before.

Glides wrote:
Unfortunately, I'm well acquainted with this. I tend to give up really easily. I've literally ran out of places because a cute girl noticed me and gave me the distinctive "you are below me, worm" sneer. I've begged friends to leave a place because I saw a cute girl, and they'd naturally refuse to do so. It already takes enough energy pretending that attractive women don't scare me and that I have a decent amount of sexual experience for someone my age (the trick to doing so: no more than three and only missionary with each imaginary girl).

I wouldn't lie like that, brotha. I would own it. Much like how I'm very vocal about my own virginity if anyone asks, I'm usually like "Yep, sure am." People will recognize and respect that shit, at least women will, I kid you not. From personal experience recently, I texted a female friend (with whom I had discussed this earlier with) and asked her why she thought it was good that I was still a virgin.

Her reply? She said I was holding out for a reason, something that that's really hard to do and commendable. The only reasons why I've held out for so long is because a) I'm a shy kid and b) I'd want to lose it to someone I care about. Which she gave me props for. Razz

Another friend I told her I was a virgin too and she said, "That's very noble of you, I wish I still was..."

Neither of my personal experiences may mean much to you, but it does go to show that owning your virginity and not treating it as something shameful will garner some recognition and respect. I think it's okay to be embarrassed about it, I know I can be, have been and at times am embarrassed by my prolonged, but goddamn it I'll tell you the truth every time if you ask me.

Glides wrote:
Personally, I hate nervousness in any and all forms. I despise feeling it. I don't think Doc ever panicked when he talked to a girl, even before his Pick Up Artist days. Nervous, yes. Literally having panic attacks because of them, no.

I'm willing to bet he (metaphorically) shit his pants on more than one occasion. Maybe no panic attacks, but I'm sure he he was terrified even before his PUA days.

Enail wrote:
I'd really like you to consider the possibility that you don't actually know how attractive your appearance is or not. That you cannot know.  I'm not saying that you should think you're gorgeous - I've never seen you, I have no clue what you really look like. But just keep in mind that you hate yourself; what you see when you look in a mirror is going to be hugely coloured by that, and you may not actually be able to evaluate your appearance with any accuracy.

I sure as hell don't know for sure if I'm attractive lol. I'm like anyone else, I have my days where I think I'm fabulous and others where I think I'm just blaah.

Caffeinated wrote:
Unless you have developed a mind-reading superpower, it is literally not possible for you to know that no one is attracted to you. Doesn't matter if you've studied indicators of interest. Do you know what the primary indicator of interest is for shy girls? It's not looking at the person they're into, or trying to turn herself invisible (or even more invisible than she normally tries to make herself) when that person is around. Unless you can actually read the minds of all the women and girls who have ever been around you, you just don't know, because you don't know what they're thinking.

-writes down notes-

Shy girls are also really cute and are more adorable when they open up to you. :3 Though that does have it's frustrations now that I think about it.

Anecdote Time!: At work a little while ago, the math lab coordinator and her daughter were leaving and I was walking in their general direction. I looked up at them and kinda smiled at them as they left, the coordinator waved back but the daughter averted her eyes to the floor shyly when I did so. Now, I didn't do a complete overhaul of my appearance, but I certainly do not look like a nerd/geek, matter of fact I think I had my flannel shirt on with my hair in a pompadour (well, the modern pomp). So, now I'm wondering if I appeared appeared intimidating. D:

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