Feels, friends & shizzle [rant?/advice/disc]

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Post by Guest on Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:48 am

-cue theme music-

(Yes, I'm that much of a dork, shuttup and think of my stories as told from a hard-boiled detective perspective, anyway...)

I'll be honest, I just need to get some stuff off my chest.

Remember the co-intern I had a thing for sometime ago? Yes, the same intern who I think is awesome and the same one who gave me mad props for still being a virgin. Well, I still kinda have a thing for her, both in mind & body. I've hung out with her twice already outside of work/school now that the semester is over. No, not in a date context or anything like that, no.

Today was Christmas and her family for the most part lives in NorCal, so she spent Christmas Eve by herself. We were snapchatting on Christmas Eve and since I wasn't doing anything on Christmas Day (nor does my family do anything on Christmas) I asked her if she wanted to chill. So we did and I spent Christmas Day afternoon with her instead. We played poker (hehehehe) for a little bit and watched It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia for awhile before she had to go to a work dinner/kickback.

Aside from chillin', I kinda wanted to let her know, "Hey, I think you're super awesome & cute and gimme pantsfeelings too and I wanted to ask you out on a date." Buuuut... I couldn't do it. I couldn't tell her that I got a bit of a thing for her because yeah fear of rejection & whatnot, but worst of all because I don't want to lose them as a friend either because I do genuinely think they're awesome (seriously, not many girls I know own a copy of MGS4, I fuckin love MGS4).

I'll be honest, that fear seems to crop up a lot when I crush on girls who I became friends with first because I don't want to look like a creepy asshole. Sure, there'll be times when I meet someone who is indeed wickedly attractive and I'll have no feelings towards, but later as time goes by that grows and I say to myself "Oh shit, pantsfeelings, who invited you, nooo, go away."

Plus I'm still confused on whether or not I can be friends with a girl first and later ask them out because I developed pantsfeelings. I'm wondering because it seems that's how others do it, but then I do it and it's like "Nope, fuck you." scratch

What I need help with, is not so much what to say, but rather how to overcome my fears/concerns mentioned above.

I've begun to hate being able to have pantsfeelings, I really have. I wish I was born a dog, at least then I wouldn't have to worry about dating & modern life and I could be able to run around, poop, eat and sleep all day. Or I could pull a Solid Snake and move to Alaska to raise sled dogs.

Feels, friends & shizzle [rant?/advice/disc] Thedude5

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Post by Jayce on Fri Dec 26, 2014 7:45 am

Creepiness is about actions and intentions. If you were only pretending to be her friend in the first place so you could eventually ask her out, then yes that can be creepy to people, and it's dishonest to the other person. If you genuinely were friends with them and then developed romantic attraction afterwards then it is completely OK to ask them out. The thing is though, us giving you permission to feel ok to ask her out is useless. You have to believe and alieve (alief- subconsciously believing) the fact that this is not creepy if you are genuine about it.

Although all the women I've asked out are people I've recently met (usually on the same day that I've met them for the first time). I've never asked out a friend before. But if I were to then I would tell her and explain why I now felt attracted to her. I think its a good idea to explain to her that at first you thought she was interesting so you wanted to be friends but as time went on you realized how awesome, great she was and that you started to become attracted to them. I think it should probably sound something like this: "Hey when I met you, at first,I thought you were quite interesting. And you know what, as I got to know you better, I really liked that (insert what attracts you to her here) so I started feeling attracted to you. I like you. Come on a coffee date with me next Wednesday."


The Mikey wrote: but worst of all because I don't want to lose them as a friend either because I do genuinely think they're awesome

Now as for this part here I do have some similar first hand personal experience. I asked out a woman a couple of months ago (I didn't know her, we never hung out, and weren't friends). She rejected me. I didn't make a big deal out of it. I just smiled and said ok I'll see you around. A couple weeks ago,she asked me that she wanted to go shopping. After a bit of thinking I realised I do want to be friends and I agreed. Today we hung out together, just the two of us, went shopping and became friends. And it's liked nothing awkward ever happened between us. Its like the fact I asked her out never happened. We even had lunch together.

Even though we weren't friends in the first place when I asked her out, I think this advice can apply to your situations of asking friends out and that you're afraid of losing the friendship. Don't make a big deal out of it and it most likely won't be a big deal. If she rejects you just say ok, and change the topic of conversation. Also a tip: if she does reject you, and you still want to be friends and want a clear way to let her know that you genuinely do want to be friends, next time you plan a hang out, tell her that if she wants to she can invite her friends to come along as well. It can communicate to her that you're not trying to secretly go on a "Schrodinger's date" with her, and also if she feels uncomfortable alone around you because she knows you were at one point attracted to her, she might feel more comfortable if her friends are around. It is always about your intentions and your actions. I didn't try to impress her or try to win her over. I just went out saying to myself I really do want to be friends with her. And it is likely she could pick up on that. She was comfortable doing things that could've seemed date-ish like having lunch at a cafe while getting to know each other. I know that I'm not the guy that tricks his friends and goes of pretend dates with them. I'm the guy that is upfront, honest with my potential partners, and knows if I want a date I will use the word date in my sentence when offering to hang out. And my actions reflect this. I have never asked someone out without the word "date" before. Ever since I learned about dating, I've never pretended to be someone's friend in order to date them.

Now from your posts here I don't think you are creepy. But you are a bit confused on what is considered creepy. If you get over that hurdle it should be possible that you will stop considering all your romantic intentions to be creepy.

Also I found out if you don't want to come across as creepy its often a good idea to sign a social binding contract with yourself, stating that you'll be genuine and honest to potential dates/partners and won't deliberately hurt them or make them feel uncomfortable. Treat it as an Unbreakable Vow.

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Post by Guest on Fri Dec 26, 2014 3:37 pm

Jayce wrote:Creepiness is about actions and intentions. If you were only pretending to be her friend in the first place so you could eventually ask her out, then yes that can be creepy to people, and it's dishonest to the other person. If you genuinely were friends with them and then developed romantic attraction afterwards then it is completely OK to ask them out. The thing is though, us giving you permission to feel ok to ask her out is useless. You have to believe and alieve (alief- subconsciously believing) the fact that this is not creepy if you are genuine about it.

I knew who she was because I'd seen her from afar because she was some of my other classes but I wasn't good friends with her yet; nor did we speak to each other much then either. I'll admit that I found her attractive then too, but it was a more general attraction in the sense that I prolly wouldn't see them again, so eh, who cares. She seemed cool and seemed to know what she was doing from the get go when it came to film stuff, which was also super cool.

But the drawback to believing and alieving is even if *I* feel genuine about she may not think I was, which has happened to me on what feels like more than one occasion. :I

Jayce wrote:
Although all the women I've asked out are people I've recently met (usually on the same day that I've met them for the first time). I've never asked out a friend before. But if I were to then I would tell her and explain why I now felt attracted to her. I think its a good idea to explain to her that at first you thought she was interesting so you wanted to be friends but as time went on you realized how awesome, great she was and that you started to become attracted to them. I think it should probably sound something like this: "Hey when I met you, at first,I thought you were quite interesting. And you know what, as I got to know you better, I really liked that (insert what attracts you to her here) so I started feeling attracted to you. I like you. Come on a coffee date with me next Wednesday."

I've never asked out women I've met the same day, that seems a little odd to me. That's another thing that confuses the shit outta me too, how soon is too soon? How late is too late? How soon is now? I've asked out friends before, because isn't that how it happens/works sometimes?

I also thought about talking to her like that too, but I don't wanna scare her either. Come off too intense, imposing, etc.

Jayce wrote:
Now as for this part here I do have some similar first hand personal experience. I asked out a woman a couple of months ago (I didn't know her, we never hung out, and weren't friends). She rejected me. I didn't make a big deal out of it. I just smiled and said ok I'll see you around. A couple weeks ago,she asked me that she wanted to go shopping. After a bit of thinking I realised I do want to be friends and I agreed. Today we hung out together, just the two of us, went shopping and became friends. And it's liked nothing awkward ever happened between us. Its like the fact I asked her out never happened. We even had lunch together.

I don't have a problem with remaining friends with anyone, to be honest. It's not in my nature to just toss that out because they wouldn't wanna go out with me. Sure, some friendships will indeed fizzle out, but it's whatever there's prolly a reason why those fizzled out anyway. There's only one person who I've hung out with one-on-one that I asked out on a date, but she moved to Romania two years ago and was in town this past summer and I shot a video with her and went to a bonfire some time after that. Either she didn't care because I made zero mention of it, or she doesn't remember I did that.

And there's also the one girl I went on a single date with back in May, we're still chill on facebook but I haven't hung out with her since then either. :/ Prolly for the better there.

Jayce wrote:
Even though we weren't friends in the first place when I asked her out, I think this advice can apply to your situations of asking friends out and that you're afraid of losing the friendship. Don't make a big deal out of it and it most likely won't be a big deal. If she rejects you just say ok, and change the topic of conversation. Also a tip: if she does reject you, and you still want to be friends and want a clear way to let her know that you genuinely do want to be friends, next time you plan a hang out, tell her that if she wants to she can invite her friends to come along as well. It can communicate to her that you're not trying to secretly go on a "Schrodinger's date" with her, and also if she feels uncomfortable alone around you because she knows you were at one point attracted to her, she might feel more comfortable if her friends are around. It is always about your intentions and your actions. I didn't try to impress her or try to win her over. I just went out saying to myself I really do want to be friends with her. And it is likely she could pick up on that. She was comfortable doing things that could've seemed date-ish like having lunch at a cafe while getting to know each other. I know that I'm not the guy that tricks his friends and goes of pretend dates with them. I'm the guy that is upfront, honest with my potential partners, and knows if I want a date I will use the word date in my sentence when offering to hang out. And my actions reflect this. I have never asked someone out without the word "date" before. Ever since I learned about dating, I've never pretended to be someone's friend in order to date them.  

I'm almost always the same way, if I wanted this to be a date I would say the words "a date". In regards to wanting to hangout with her after such an event, I'd prolly say something (to her and others) along the lines of "Hey, I'm gonna go do $thing, if you wanna join, you're more than welcome to!" Sometimes works, some times it don't. -shrug-

Jayce wrote:
Now from your posts here I don't think you are creepy. But you are a bit confused on what is considered creepy. If you get over that hurdle it should be possible that you will stop considering all your romantic intentions to be creepy.

Confused? Oh, for sure, I'm always on the look out for potentially creepy shit and until I'm comfortable with someone and they with me will I get moderately affectionate. I feel like my entire life I've been told (subconsciously, maybe) that having sexual/romantic feelings for anyone is creepy. I don't know why, I always feel like an asshole for crushing on people. Maybe I sat in one too many sexual harassment lectures while I was growing up that I can't let myself tell the women I have pantsfeelings for that I'm into them?

This sucks.

Jayce wrote:
Also I found out if you don't want to come across as creepy its often a good idea to sign a social binding contract with yourself, stating that you'll be genuine and honest to potential dates/partners and won't deliberately hurt them or make them feel uncomfortable. Treat it as an Unbreakable Vow.

I try to be as honest/genuine as possible to anyone and everyone, regardless of whether or not they're potential dates/partners, that's just what I do and it's the most respectful thing someone can do (in my opinion). I don't even know how I could deliberately hurt a potential date/partner, if anything they hurt me or I let myself get hurt, I dunno. scratch But I can avoid uncomfortableness pretty easily, I've learned that being cool and not saying super disgusting and/or weird shit tends to give you normalcy-points, but I'm still a dork no matter what. Razz

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Post by Guest on Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:42 am

The Mikey wrote:I've begun to hate being able to have pantsfeelings, I really have.

I hear ya on this. They are a real frustration at the best of times, I feel.

Also, I find it hard to reconcile pantsfeelings and romantic feelings as either working towards the same end or coming from the same place. If that makes any sense.

I wish I had advice for you, but you're a good few steps ahead of me.

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Post by Guest on Sat Dec 27, 2014 3:55 pm

MapWater wrote:
I hear ya on this. They are a real frustration at the best of times, I feel.

Also, I find it hard to reconcile pantsfeelings and romantic feelings as either working towards the same end or coming from the same place. If that makes any sense.

I wish I had advice for you, but you're a good few steps ahead of me.

My problem sometimes is I ask myself "Is this lust I'm feeling or am I feeling something else?" And unfortunately, a lot of time, it is lust and it sucks, but later that lust turns into something else or goes away. So it puts me in a hard place sometimes. :\

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Post by nonA on Sat Dec 27, 2014 4:19 pm

Lust does tend to make things hard, yes. ^-^

It really doesn't help to think of lust as an impure emotion, though. Doubly so one that damages the subject. There are ways to express the feelings that are conscious and respectful of the other person, and ways that ... aren't. Thinking that you must be impeccable in thought and deed tends to mean you hold yourself to an impossible standard, and will lead to you sabotaging yourself when you find said impossible standard is not something you can reach.

BTW. If she's decently attractive and not a complete idiot, she can make a safe guess that you want to bone her. Your goal here is not to convince her that you're a eunuch, it's to convince her that the boning is an experience she'd enjoy too.

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Post by OneTrueGuest on Sat Dec 27, 2014 4:49 pm

Gotta jump in here as a decently attractive non-idiot. Smile I think I posted about this elsewhere, but I've been burned so many times in the past for assuming that a guy liked me that I just stopped assuming that. Even when there were overt signals (because in the past even with overt signals, I was still evidently wrong in my assuming the guy was into me. No, I'm serious, one guy stood up like he'd been shot when I asked him out and said, "I'm engaged!!").

I realise guys think we gals have it all figured out, and if we are "decently attractive" we must know that everyone is into us. But the truth is, we are human and we've been burned and we all find our own ways to protect ourselves. So no, if it had been me in that situation, I would NOT have known he wanted to bone me. I mean, if he did, he'd have made a move or something, right? (not saying that's logical, just saying what I'd have been thinking)

I'm afraid just assuming that girls know that guys want them isn't true. We are just as weird and awkward and full of self doubts as you are. And don't forget, we are sold on a daily basis that we are never good enough. We hear talk of "shelf lives", and we are never skinny enough, our faces the right shape, our boobs big/small enough. We need to be sold this so that companies can make money on us trying to achieve this perfect woman we are all supposed to be. It can make even the most attractive girl assume she isn't. Believe me. I'm an actress. I'm surrounded by beauty. And 9 times out of 10 the actresses I come into contact with think so little of themselves aesthetically. It's pretty gosh darn sad, really.

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Post by nonA on Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:25 pm

Heh. Didn't mean to imply that magical women's intuition let you automatically know what a guy was thinking. Or that you didn't have your own bevy of worries about measuring up. I've heard enough women's take on the matter to think otherwise.

I'll still stand on the specific point of wanting to bone, though. Liking/respecting you as a person, wanting a deeper involvement, not seeing you as a side-project while he's really focused on someone else, those are all things I totally get. When it's an issue of them having dirty thoughts, though, it's a safe bet that every straight guy has had them. Which was the specific thrust of my point to Mikey; convincing the other person that you're beyond such base desires is a fool's errand. You can own those feelings while not seeing the other person as nothing more than a collection of warm holes.

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Post by Guest on Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:30 pm

nonA wrote:Lust does tend to make things hard, yes. ^-^

Ugh, tell me about it. D:

nonA wrote:
It really doesn't help to think of lust as an impure emotion, though.  Doubly so one that damages the subject.  There are ways to express the feelings that are conscious and respectful of the other person, and ways that ... aren't.  Thinking that you must be impeccable in thought and deed tends to mean you hold yourself to an impossible standard, and will lead to you sabotaging yourself when you find said impossible standard is not something you can reach.

I know that I'm not completely pure of thought or deed (or heart). I know I'm not perfect and I aim to be at the least a decent fellow. A good guy who doesn't mess around when playtime is over. But how can I express those horny sentiments in a way that won't make her uncomfortable, you know? I could go the Louis C.K. route, or find my own way and say something along the lines of, "Hey $intern, this isn't easy for me to say, and I dunno how you feel about this, but I really like you and I find you wildly attractive, would you like to have sex maybe?"

nonA wrote:
BTW.  If she's decently attractive and not a complete idiot, she can make a safe guess that you want to bone her.  Your goal here is not to convince her that you're a eunuch, it's to convince her that the boning is an experience she'd enjoy too.

I am no eunuch. :c

Again, how could I do/say that? Say like "We could have a fun & sexy time?"

OneTrueGuest wrote:Gotta jump in here as a decently attractive non-idiot.  Smile  I think I posted about this elsewhere, but I've been burned so many times in the past for assuming that a guy liked me that I just stopped assuming that.  Even when there were overt signals (because in the past even with overt signals, I was still evidently wrong in my assuming the guy was into me.  No, I'm serious, one guy stood up like he'd been shot when I asked him out and said, "I'm engaged!!").  

We being the absolutists we are I began to default into a similar train of thought by me saying "girls aren't into me" too. Wink And as have I been wrong in the signal reading dept thinkin' some girls were into me in which, alas, I was wrong. D: Although, none of the girls I did ask out acted like they'd been shot. Razz

OneTrueGuest wrote:
I realise guys think we gals have it all figured out, and if we are "decently attractive" we must know that everyone is into us.  But the truth is, we are human and we've been burned and we all find our own ways to protect ourselves.  So no, if it had been me in that situation, I would NOT have known he wanted to bone me.  I mean, if he did, he'd have made a move or something, right?  (not saying that's logical, just saying what I'd have been thinking)

Maybe not figured it out, but take an educated guess. Maybe?

In my experience, I've met a lot of smart girls who could probably have read me like a kids book and easily figured it out. Or maybe I'm giving them too much credit, I will never know.

OneTrueGuest wrote:
I'm afraid just assuming that girls know that guys want them isn't true.  We are just as weird and awkward and full of self doubts as you are.  And don't forget, we are sold on a daily basis that we are never good enough.  We hear talk of "shelf lives", and we are never skinny enough, our faces the right shape, our boobs big/small enough.  We need to be sold this so that companies can make money on us trying to achieve this perfect woman we are all supposed to be.  It can make even the most attractive girl assume she isn't.  Believe me.  I'm an actress.  I'm surrounded by beauty.  And 9 times out of 10 the actresses I come into contact with think so little of themselves aesthetically.  It's pretty gosh darn sad, really.

Heh, "shelf lives", there is no such thing in my opinion. I've met plenty of beautiful older women in terms of both personality and physical beauty. You're all special in your own ways and are indeed good enough. I mean holy shit, growing up I met girls who I thought were the bees-knees despite looking very meek, I liked them much more than I did say the cheerleader, you know? But if anyone felt like they weren't good enough it was me.

And you're an actress? Does this mean I should go for actresses too maybe? Shocked

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Post by OneTrueGuest on Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:27 pm

nonA - I get what you're saying, but believe me, just as it can be hard for you guys to believe that women want certain things or think certain ways, the idea that you all want to bone all of us all the time hasn't actually materialised in my life. In fact that was one of the reasons I had to change my thinking because that was the assumption I had made about you guys too. Until it became quite clear that even when I was offering it with no strings attached, they weren't interested. I also think it's a bit unfair to suggest that all men want to bone all women all the time because it perpetuates this myth that men are always up for it and there's no such thing as rape if a woman does it to a man. Which I think we can all agree are two rather large falsehoods that need to be undone.

Further, apropos of nothing, I LOATHE the term "bone". I used to think it was just because it was crude but I think I've come to realise I hate it because once again it's treating women differently from men. The bone in this context is obviously a penis, and the idea of "to penis" someone. . . It once again makes sex a one way street. Sex is something that happens to women. Men do sex, women just experience it. It makes it seem like like the only interest in the man is to stick something in the woman. Not experiencing something together as a mutual activity. It also implies that sex is only about PiV. Is some boring in and out motion. I dunno, it all just makes me feel uncomfortable.

The Mikey - some girls I'm sure figured out you liked them. Some don't. I had a girlfriend explain to me that when a guy talks to you all night at a party, that means he's into you. I just stared at her wide eyed and quite upset because she was referring to a guy who I had talked to pretty much all night and I had assumed didn't want me. The worst part was I was so totally into him. So yeah, I had NO idea that he wanted me at all. Some girls definitely are better at this stuff than others. But I've been accused of being a game player and just plain lying because I couldn't tell someone wanted me. And I wasn't either of those things. I just did not know.

And sure, why not go for actresses. No one's off limits (aside from people you think might be in a vulnerable place that you could take advantage of). Humans are human. I really wish people would stop making judgments about groups of people in general. Everyone's been a kid once. Everyone's been bullied at one time. Everyone's felt sadness and pain. Everyone just wants to be happy. And everyone is really fucking confused just existing on this planet.

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Post by Guest on Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:49 pm

OneTrueGuest wrote:The Mikey - some girls I'm sure figured out you liked them.  Some don't.  I had a girlfriend explain to me that when a guy talks to you all night at a party, that means he's into you.  I just stared at her wide eyed and quite upset because she was referring to a guy who I had talked to pretty much all night and I had assumed didn't want me.  The worst part was I was so totally into him.  So yeah, I had NO idea that he wanted me at all.  Some girls definitely are better at this stuff than others.  But I've been accused of being a game player and just plain lying because I couldn't tell someone wanted me.  And I wasn't either of those things.  I just did not know.

This kind of thing is too true. It's one of those gender independent things that people really need to understand. I think men have had it far more ingrained that women 'know what's up', however, and need to work at it harder.

But I had an experience almost exactly like the above - spent like 70% of an entire party talking to one girl in high school, apparently she was really into me and I had to be told after the party that this was the case. I thought we just shot the shit really well and that was it. Still kinda feel bad that I could have seemed as if I was leading her on. I hope she defaulted to me just being an oblivious doofus. But, to be fair, I wasn't interested in anyone so I would have probably let it go over my head if I noticed it.

Anyway, OneTrueGuest is right - no one really knows. They may suspect based on some solid evidence, but they will never know until someone says something.

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Post by OneTrueGuest on Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:13 pm

Yes! The saying of something is SO important. I have gone on dates I only realised were dates months later when told by a friend of that person I went out with that one time. And the sad thing was had I known they were dates I would have totally been into that idea! I love the word "date". I love it so so so so much. And heck I've even had some awkward moments where I felt it important to clarify something WASN'T a date. (I've been invited to a couple of weddings by guy friends before and awkwardly had to clarify it wasn't a date because everyone knows the stereotype of all the goings on that happen at weddings)

Words are so important. We are such confused creatures, we need them. The irony of course is we fear words because they make things so clear. There is safety in that confusion, there is an easy out, there is a lack of heartbreak. But that safety is an illusion. It doesn't change the feelings people have for each other, it doesn't change the reality of the situation. It just conveniently masks it for a while.

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Post by Guest on Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:39 pm

OneTrueGuest wrote: 
The Mikey - some girls I'm sure figured out you liked them.  Some don't.  I had a girlfriend explain to me that when a guy talks to you all night at a party, that means he's into you.


Not inaccurate. Or in my case, the last time I talked to a girl almost all night I was drunk and into their A Clockwork Orange costume a ton. Laughing

OneTrueGuest wrote:
I just stared at her wide eyed and quite upset because she was referring to a guy who I had talked to pretty much all night and I had assumed didn't want me.  The worst part was I was so totally into him.  So yeah, I had NO idea that he wanted me at all.  Some girls definitely are better at this stuff than others.  But I've been accused of being a game player and just plain lying because I couldn't tell someone wanted me.  And I wasn't either of those things.  I just did not know.  


Huh... also true of some dudes.

OneTrueGuest wrote:
And sure, why not go for actresses.  No one's off limits (aside from people you think might be in a vulnerable place that you could take advantage of).  Humans are human.  I really wish people would stop making judgments about groups of people in general.  Everyone's been a kid once.  Everyone's been bullied at one time.  Everyone's felt sadness and pain.  Everyone just wants to be happy.  And everyone is really fucking confused just existing on this planet.

No, I know, you're right.

One of the reasons why I wouldn't go for an actress (or model or whatever) is because we'd have completely different lifestyles from each other. Buuuuut, I forget how not every actor or actress is working on a project at any given moment either and have a lot of downtime too, so there's nothing stopping me there. I'm just a dumb ass. But, I do have this notion that actresses are a liiiiiiittle intimidating. Razz

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Post by OneTrueGuest on Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:52 pm

Oh yes, we unemployed actresses who can't even get auditions are TERRIFYING Wink .  I think most people assume actors in general are like the actors they actually see on television etc.  But most of us are just servers, teachers, anything else-ers (in my case, writer, which if you actually think about it is pretty much the polar opposite to actor.  I mean is there a more insular person than a novelist?  It's pretty cool having friends from both disciplines) to actually earn money while they attempt to have some kind of a career.  Most of us are not nearly intimidating at all.  Most of us are just trying to get some kind of work like everyone else is.

Granted there are stereotypes of actors that are . . . quite true . . . have you ever hung out with a group of actors??  The clawing for centre of attention is quite exhausting and I'll admit I claw with the best of them Smile .  But eventually you find your group, and I am pretty proud to say I know some exceptionally kind, gifted, hilarious, and relatively stable actors (I wish I wasn't so interested in being anon here because I would love to link to a webseries I created and show you some of these amazing people).  Also interesting, most actors I know are actually introverts (like myself) but we have trained ourselves to be able to be extroverted when necessary.  Which is why I do talk a lot about working on oneself and the possibility of improvement.  If someone like me (who never went to a single highschool party until right before she graduated) can pretend to extroversion successfully, others most definitely can too.

Anyway .. . that was a digression.  Sorry.  I'm procrastinating writing right now . . . hence the plethora of posts I've made today so far . . .


As to your other to responses, yup.  I guess my point is to remind especially the guys here how alike we women are to you.  I don't doubt a sincere effort to understand and get to know us, it's why I like this site so much.  But ultimately I feel my job is to remind everyone we all have more in common than not.  And that maybe that will help make things less intimidating in future.

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Post by Guest on Sat Dec 27, 2014 9:28 pm

OneTrueGuest wrote:Oh yes, we unemployed actresses who can't even get auditions are TERRIFYING Wink .  I think most people assume actors in general are like the actors they actually see on television etc.  But most of us are just servers, teachers, anything else-ers (in my case, writer, which if you actually think about it is pretty much the polar opposite to actor.  I mean is there a more insular person than a novelist?  It's pretty cool having friends from both disciplines) to actually earn money while they attempt to have some kind of a career.  Most of us are not nearly intimidating at all.  Most of us are just trying to get some kind of work like everyone else is.

Everything you said is absolutely true, so I feel like an asshole forgetting that (especially being a filmmaker myself). Although, some of the actresses that I've found to be intimidating are the ones who look better than the ones on TV. That's hard to do. Razz

OneTrueGuest wrote:
Granted there are stereotypes of actors that are . . . quite true . . . have you ever hung out with a group of actors??  The clawing for centre of attention is quite exhausting and I'll admit I claw with the best of them Smile .  But eventually you find your group, and I am pretty proud to say I know some exceptionally kind, gifted, hilarious, and relatively stable actors (I wish I wasn't so interested in being anon here because I would love to link to a webseries I created and show you some of these amazing people).  Also interesting, most actors I know are actually introverts (like myself) but we have trained ourselves to be able to be extroverted when necessary.  Which is why I do talk a lot about working on oneself and the possibility of improvement.  If someone like me (who never went to a single highschool party until right before she graduated) can pretend to extroversion successfully, others most definitely can too.

Anyway .. . that was a digression.  Sorry.  I'm procrastinating writing right now . . . hence the plethora of posts I've made today so far . . .

I sure have hung out with a group of actors, I was in a theatre class for two years. Every improv game we played everyone was tryna out do the other with each and every single scenario and/or scene.

I agree with you a lot and can co-sign that I learned to be extroverted when necessary, in particular through my theatre class I learned to break outta that shell a tiny bit. Only problem is, while being an introvert by default, flipping on the extrovert switch takes a lot out of me. Doesn't hurt to self-improve either because also like you I never attended any parties in high school, not until college. D:

OneTrueGuest wrote:
As to your other to responses, yup.  I guess my point is to remind especially the guys here how alike we women are to you.  I don't doubt a sincere effort to understand and get to know us, it's why I like this site so much.  But ultimately I feel my job is to remind everyone we all have more in common than not.  And that maybe that will help make things less intimidating in future.

I'll be honest I forget that sometimes. It's hard to tell what's going on in women's heads sometimes and when I encounter a pretty one, well crap, better not roll a 1 on that Charisma check. Yes, I make D&D references, yes, I'm a dork.

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Post by Guest on Sat Dec 27, 2014 9:30 pm

The Mikey wrote:
OneTrueGuest wrote:
And sure, why not go for actresses.  No one's off limits (aside from people you think might be in a vulnerable place that you could take advantage of).  Humans are human.  I really wish people would stop making judgments about groups of people in general.  Everyone's been a kid once.  Everyone's been bullied at one time.  Everyone's felt sadness and pain.  Everyone just wants to be happy.  And everyone is really fucking confused just existing on this planet.

No, I know, you're right.

One of the reasons why I wouldn't go for an actress (or model or whatever) is because we'd have completely different lifestyles from each other. Buuuuut, I forget how not every actor or actress is working on a project at any given moment either and have a lot of downtime too, so there's nothing stopping me there. I'm just a dumb ass. But, I do have this notion that actresses are a liiiiiiittle intimidating. Razz

The lifestyles thing can be an issue - but it varies far too wildly to use it as a metric as to whether to approach someone or not, I would argue. DNL wrote on the subject at least once, getting into how some lifestyles / scenes will have compatibility trouble. I mean, I have a thing for really fit women - abs and all that - but I'm not a fit person nor someone who even edges on that lifestyle, because it requires a huge part of your life, male or female, to attain that look and fitness level. The compatibility there would be rough at best.

But, as a general rule, you can always try. It's one of those times where you have to re-frame 'failure'; if you're not compatible because of lifestyles, careers, scenes etc. then you've learned that lesson and can apply it later. Each of the three have nuances, like types of people being drawn to specific careers or lifestyles, but you gotta try. And this is coming from a 'never try, never fail' guy. I just know that doesn't work all that well outside my head, hah.

...I guess that's a derail, huh?

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Post by Guest on Sat Dec 27, 2014 9:45 pm

MapWater wrote:
The lifestyles thing can be an issue - but it varies far too wildly to use it as a metric as to whether to approach someone or not, I would argue. DNL wrote on the subject at least once, getting into how some lifestyles / scenes will have compatibility trouble. I mean, I have a thing for really fit women - abs and all that - but I'm not a fit person nor someone who even edges on that lifestyle, because it requires a huge part of your life, male or female, to attain that look and fitness level. The compatibility there would be rough at best.

But, as a general rule, you can always try. It's one of those times where you have to re-frame 'failure'; if you're not compatible because of lifestyles, careers, scenes etc. then you've learned that lesson and can apply it later. Each of the three have nuances, like types of people being drawn to specific careers or lifestyles, but you gotta try. And this is coming from a 'never try, never fail' guy. I just know that doesn't work all that well outside my head, hah.

...I guess that's a derail, huh?

I understand what you're saying, doesn't hurt to try. If it works, great, if it don't that's, fine too.

And yeah, it is quite the derail. Razz

ETA: But I still don't quite have a solution to my conundrum tho. D:

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Post by OneTrueGuest on Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:22 pm

Flipping into extrovert takes a lot out of me too.  I think you'd be surprised how many people who are acting all extroverted are really just like us.  

And about pretty girls . . . it's really hard to say, but I've known a lot of them, I am one myself (but note how difficult that is for me to say considering how down I am on my appearance especially in relation to Hollywood, yet I know that I am from outside evidence etc) and quite frankly it starts to get exhausting being seen as less than human.  If it helps at all, think of it as an advantage.  Pretty girls spend their lives dealing with people who don't treat them as people.  Who either want to smooth talk them or avoid them.  If you just treated these girls as human beings you would be so far ahead of the game, most of them would be crazy appreciative (I'm not going to say all because alas there are both men and women who are attractive who have swallowed all the BS society tells them about their intrinsic superiority - but there are jerks all round, including in the non-attractive group.  Tangent - the first time I met a guy in the nerdverse who acted all superior to me and condescending I was stunned because I thought we were supposed to be the group of accepting all people. I expect that attitude from the "popular kids" but not one of my own.  That taught me a major lesson there.  And he was definitely not the only nerd I've met since that has behaved like that).

I know you don't mean to, I know you are just saying how you feel, but it actually really hurts my feelings hearing folks talk about attractive people like they are some other creatures.  That they don't have personalities and value outside of being pretty.  That they can't be spoken to like anyone would speak to a normal person.  It's isolating and placing expectations on attractive people that they don't necessarily even have.

If you must be, be intimidated by brilliance.  Be intimidated by an amazing sense of humour.  Be intimidated by generosity of spirit.  But looks?  Looks are what you are born with.  They are not a choice, they have nothing to do with anything (aside from some people having a superior attitude, but again, there are those unattractive people who think that since they aren't attractive that must make them smarter than everyone else and they therefore also act superior).  I know, it's easy to say, far harder to do.  But maybe if you start just reminding yourself of the human part of the girl you think is just gorgeous then over time that might help you get over the intimidation.  Maybe.  I dunno.  I hope Smile .

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Post by Guest on Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:56 pm

OneTrueGuest wrote:Flipping into extrovert takes a lot out of me too.  I think you'd be surprised how many people who are acting all extroverted are really just like us.  

Maybe I need to meet more actresses then. Laughing

OneTrueGuest wrote:
And about pretty girls . . . it's really hard to say, but I've known a lot of them, I am one myself (but note how difficult that is for me to say considering how down I am on my appearance especially in relation to Hollywood, yet I know that I am from outside evidence etc) and quite frankly it starts to get exhausting being seen as less than human.  If it helps at all, think of it as an advantage.  Pretty girls spend their lives dealing with people who don't treat them as people.  Who either want to smooth talk them or avoid them.  If you just treated these girls as human beings you would be so far ahead of the game, most of them would be crazy appreciative (I'm not going to say all because alas there are both men and women who are attractive who have swallowed all the BS society tells them about their intrinsic superiority - but there are jerks all round, including in the non-attractive group.  Tangent - the first time I met a guy in the nerdverse who acted all superior to me and condescending I was stunned because I thought we were supposed to be the group of accepting all people. I expect that attitude from the "popular kids" but not one of my own.  That taught me a major lesson there.  And he was definitely not the only nerd I've met since that has behaved like that).

I've known some ladies that are absolute bombshells in the last three years and the guys were all blown away (including myself), but I was cool about it because I knew I wouldn't never be able to get with any of them. So I spoke to them like I would anyone else and their responses were typically pretty warm.

I know I'm ahead of the game by treating them like regular people. I'm just too shy/stupid to make the leap/move because then they'll prolly think I was an asshole that was actually after one thing when I more than likely wasn't. I was also taught that I shouldn't argue my way outta of it, okay, that kinda puts me between a rock & a hard place, don't it?

See, that's kinda the way I think about it a lot and a reason why I'm afraid of ruining my friendships a lot too. I'm a good boy, dammit. ; ~;

OneTrueGuest wrote:
I know you don't mean to, I know you are just saying how you feel, but it actually really hurts my feelings hearing folks talk about attractive people like they are some other creatures.  That they don't have personalities and value outside of being pretty.  That they can't be spoken to like anyone would speak to a normal person.  It's isolating and placing expectations on attractive people that they don't necessarily even have.

Aww, no, I'm sorry. :\ -hugs- I definitely don't mean to be a jerk, I'm relaying thoughts and feelings from a shy-guy's personal perspective and first-hand experience dealing with girls in the past (and somewhat present). I've definitely met some very pretty girls who're an absolute riot, smart, kind, etc., but I genuinely believe I have no shot with them so I kinda shuffle myself away. I'll talk to ya if I know you (or if I had to help you at my work), but I'll prolly keep it to myself if I'm attracted to you, y'know?

OneTrueGuest wrote:
If you must be, be intimidated by brilliance.  Be intimidated by an amazing sense of humour.  Be intimidated by generosity of spirit.  But looks?  Looks are what you are born with.  They are not a choice, they have nothing to do with anything (aside from some people having a superior attitude, but again, there are those unattractive people who think that since they aren't attractive that must make them smarter than everyone else and they therefore also act superior).  I know, it's easy to say, far harder to do.  But maybe if you start just reminding yourself of the human part of the girl you think is just gorgeous then over time that might help you get over the intimidation.  Maybe.  I dunno.  I hope Smile .

I am intimidated and turned on by brilliance and/or intelligence, humor also helps their case too. If she can outsmart me and be hilarious, I'm all hers (a Philly cheese steak would seal the deal). You're also right, it is far harder to think that there's more to them sometimes, but I'm afraid of -- and this is gonna sound silly as shit -- them being cruel to me, you know? But remembering that they'd be as scared/intimidated as me, that does also give me some glimmer of hope. I just need to remember. D:

A buddy of mine gave me a similar bit of advice once too, "Go for the hot girls, Mikey, all the other dudes'll be too chickenshit to talk to her."

But again, I'm still not sure what to do with my co-intern/friend right now. D:

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Post by Guest on Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:49 pm

The Mikey wrote:
OneTrueGuest wrote:
If you must be, be intimidated by brilliance.  Be intimidated by an amazing sense of humour.  Be intimidated by generosity of spirit.  But looks?  Looks are what you are born with.  They are not a choice, they have nothing to do with anything (aside from some people having a superior attitude, but again, there are those unattractive people who think that since they aren't attractive that must make them smarter than everyone else and they therefore also act superior).  I know, it's easy to say, far harder to do.  But maybe if you start just reminding yourself of the human part of the girl you think is just gorgeous then over time that might help you get over the intimidation.  Maybe.  I dunno.  I hope Smile .

I am intimidated and turned on by brilliance and/or intelligence, humor also helps their case too. If she can outsmart me and be hilarious, I'm all hers (a Philly cheese steak would seal the deal). You're also right, it is far harder to think that there's more to them sometimes, but I'm afraid of -- and this is gonna sound silly as shit -- them being cruel to me, you know? But remembering that they'd be as scared/intimidated as me, that does also give me some glimmer of hope. I just need to remember. D:

A buddy of mine gave me a similar bit of advice once too, "Go for the hot girls, Mikey, all the other dudes'll be too chickenshit to talk to her."

But again, I'm still not sure what to do with my co-intern/friend right now. D:

Remembering that stuff in the heat of the moment can be a real struggle. It's why I still have a lot of social issues in general; I can't remember all the stuff you need to keep tabs on. It's hard, so I feel you there.

As for not being sure what to do, well, none of us can really tell you what to do. Everyone has touched on the basic points:

- It's not intrinsically creepy to ask a friend out under the conditions of moving into romance, or confessing your feelings.
- As such, if you want to try and form a romantic relationship, you'll need to speak up and it's okay to speak up.
- Someone needs to say something. Since you're the one interested in more than just friendship, it's up to you.

As intimidating or frightening as it may seem, I hardly think she's going to bite your head off. She might not be interested, sure, but that's the big ol risk everyone has to take.

So, it comes down to figuring out whether you really want to confess / ask her out and doing so if that's a yes. But what Jayce said about believing (and alieving... never heard of that) it's not creepy is pretty damn important. You'll never feel comfortable asking her out if you don't try and hammer home that belief.

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Post by Werel on Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:57 pm

Yeah, Mikey, I think most of what I'd say has already been said well-- but I will pile on the "having sexual/romantic feelings isn't inherently creepy, and will not de facto ruin your friendships" bandwagon. I've had my fair share of friendships with dudes who at some point were like "soooo, pantsfeelings" and I was like "nope sorry" and our friendship continued on its merry way. (And personally, in most cases, a simple no-expectations revelation of attraction is just a nice ego boost. The opposite of unpleasant or harmful.) You seem like a good boy (your words!) who knows perfectly well to avoid the bad behaviors: sulking, blaming, whining, pressuring, badmouthing their SO, etc.

The Mikey wrote:I'm afraid of -- and this is gonna sound silly as shit -- them being cruel to me, you know?

Not silly at all, dude. I'm not saying "hot women are all cruel" or any similar generalization, but it is not silly to be afraid that people with a lot of social power--power of a kind you don't necessarily have--will abuse that power to hurt you. Hell, I'm a little wary of initial interactions with very conventionally attractive female strangers, and I'm a straight girl. It's just human nature to be aware that people with privilege can use that privilege unkindly. But it's the nature of being kind and civil to give the privileged the benefit of the doubt until they actually start behaving badly. Sounds like you've got that part down, too. You'll be alright. Wink
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Post by Guest on Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:35 am

MapWater wrote:
Remembering that stuff in the heat of the moment can be a real struggle. It's why I still have a lot of social issues in general; I can't remember all the stuff you need to keep tabs on. It's hard, so I feel you there.

Could be, but I have to make a conscious effort to remember also. Which isn't terribly difficult, it's tough, no doubt about that, but it's not impossible.

MapWater wrote:
As for not being sure what to do, well, none of us can really tell you what to do. Everyone has touched on the basic points:

- It's not intrinsically creepy to ask a friend out under the conditions of moving into romance, or confessing your feelings.
- As such, if you want to try and form a romantic relationship, you'll need to speak up and it's okay to speak up.
- Someone needs to say something. Since you're the one interested in more than just friendship, it's up to you.

As intimidating or frightening as it may seem, I hardly think she's going to bite your head off. She might not be interested, sure, but that's the big ol risk everyone has to take.

You sure it ain't and that maybe some of the people I've dealt with were jerks?

Well, she split with her ex last year or earlier this year, so I dunno how ready she'd be to move on to a new guy or if she wants to stay single for awhile. It's a risk I've taken many times before and again an even bigger concern of mine is her not wanting to be my friend anymore. That I think would break my heart more than if she wasn't interested and at that point, that would have been my fault more or less.

MapWater wrote:
So, it comes down to figuring out whether you really want to confess / ask her out and doing so if that's a yes. But what Jayce said about believing (and alieving... never heard of that) it's not creepy is pretty damn important. You'll never feel comfortable asking her out if you don't try and hammer home that belief.

I suppose it isn't, but why do I feel... unethical about it? Why is that? Is it a fear response rather than creepy response? And if I do go through with it, it's just a matter of figuring out of whether to talk to her in person or on the phone.

Werel wrote:Yeah, Mikey, I think most of what I'd say has already been said well-- but I will pile on the "having sexual/romantic feelings isn't inherently creepy, and will not de facto ruin your friendships" bandwagon. I've had my fair share of friendships with dudes who at some point were like "soooo, pantsfeelings" and I was like "nope sorry" and our friendship continued on its merry way. (And personally, in most cases, a simple no-expectations revelation of attraction is just a nice ego boost. The opposite of unpleasant or harmful.) You seem like a good boy (your words!) who knows perfectly well to avoid the bad behaviors: sulking, blaming, whining, pressuring, badmouthing their SO, etc.

Gotcha. It happens I guess and looks like I just need to deal with whatever happens then. How I go about it is up to me then, right? Should I go with my script from some posts ago? Because I've asked out girls before, but never told them, "Hey you make my pants tighten up lol".

Werel wrote:
Not silly at all, dude. I'm not saying "hot women are all cruel" or any similar generalization, but it is not silly to be afraid that people with a lot of social power--power of a kind you don't necessarily have--will abuse that power to hurt you. Hell, I'm a little wary of initial interactions with very conventionally attractive female strangers, and I'm a straight girl. It's just human nature to be aware that people with privilege can use that privilege unkindly. But it's the nature of being kind and civil to give the privileged the benefit of the doubt until they actually start behaving badly. Sounds like you've got that part down, too. You'll be alright. Wink

I always try to be as kind to everyone as possible unless right off the bat they're unpleasant for no reason. It's weird I don't think I can say the same about approaching a good looking dude either, which is funny to think about. But yeah, I'm always willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt because I believe most people are inherently good on the inside, sure I'll run into bad apples, but they're as common as a $2 bill. They only stick out because we remember them more than someone who was nice, which sucks about human nature. :\

All right, well sometime soon I gotta figure out a day of when to tell her.

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Post by Guest on Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:59 am

The Mikey wrote:
MapWater wrote:
As for not being sure what to do, well, none of us can really tell you what to do. Everyone has touched on the basic points:

- It's not intrinsically creepy to ask a friend out under the conditions of moving into romance, or confessing your feelings.
- As such, if you want to try and form a romantic relationship, you'll need to speak up and it's okay to speak up.
- Someone needs to say something. Since you're the one interested in more than just friendship, it's up to you.

As intimidating or frightening as it may seem, I hardly think she's going to bite your head off. She might not be interested, sure, but that's the big ol risk everyone has to take.

You sure it ain't and that maybe some of the people I've dealt with were jerks?

Well, she split with her ex last year or earlier this year, so I dunno how ready she'd be to move on to a new guy or if she wants to stay single for awhile. It's a risk I've taken many times before and again an even bigger concern of mine is her not wanting to be my friend anymore. That I think would break my heart more than if she wasn't interested and at that point, that would have been my fault more or less.

Oh, no doubt I'm sure you've dealt with jerks. But you don't really know how they will react until they do. It sounds like you have a fair enough grasp of her character to at least make a judgement call on what her reaction could be. That's really the best most will have to go one with things like this.

It's terrifying to think that she may not want to be friends if you ask her out and she says know. That's a valid fear - I fear that too. But it's about making a call on whether the risk of her dropping contact is worth the possibility of a romantic relationship you seem to want.[/quote]

The Mikey wrote:
MapWater wrote:
So, it comes down to figuring out whether you really want to confess / ask her out and doing so if that's a yes. But what Jayce said about believing (and alieving... never heard of that) it's not creepy is pretty damn important. You'll never feel comfortable asking her out if you don't try and hammer home that belief.

I suppose it isn't, but why do I feel... unethical about it? Why is that? Is it a fear response rather than creepy response? And if I do go through with it, it's just a matter of figuring out of whether to talk to her in person or on the phone.

It can come from a few places. With me, I feel like I have an inherent creepiness about me. I haven't been called creepy, but that doesn't matter to jerkbrain.

But fear of taking the plunge can do weird things: if you try and convince yourself it's creepy as a rule to ask her out after being friends for a time, then you're less likely to feel it's worth going through with the Scary Thing of asking her out. Even thought it's not creepy.

Someone who isn't actually in the same boat may be able to shed better light on that particular conundrum, however.

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Post by OneTrueGuest on Mon Dec 29, 2014 1:24 am

The thing I think you should focus on more is actually not so much the asking, but on your behaviour AFTER you do the asking. Asking isn't creepy. It just isn't. Even if you don't believe it, pretend you do Smile .

So, what you want to do is ask simply. Ask without making it into this big thing. Be really darn casual about it. "Hey intern, I was wondering if I could take you out on a date sometime." And then be darn casual in however she responds:

"Oh, uh, The Mikey, I uh . . . I'm really sorry but I'm not really interested in dating at the moment."
"That's totally cool, I understand. I just had to ask. *smile* So, let's talk about that thing again that we were talking about . . ."

"Oh uh, The Mikey, I'm sorry, I just don't want to ruin our friendship."
"And I totally would hate to do that too, I absolutely get it. It's so totally cool. I just wanted to ask. Let's not even talk about it anymore. Instead, I think we should talk about this amazing subject."


"Oh wow, The Mikey, uh, sure. Yeah! That would be great!"
"Really? Oh that's awesome to hear. Okay, I'll text you in a couple days about some ideas for plans. Anyway, you were saying this thing about this amazing subject we were talking about before I asked you. . ."


The key is really preserving the casualness of friendship within the context of asking someone out. I'm not saying inside you won't be all freaking out, I'm just saying do a little play acting. Just be kind and relaxed. Don't make it a big deal. And continue to have a conversation afterwords. The after conversation makes any awkwardness a lot less of a big deal and you can both hide behind "thoughts on the latest Wes Anderson movie" or whathaveyou.

Also if she does react over the top and is mean and nasty to you, that says way more about her than you. Trust me. I highly doubt she will from your descriptions, so if she does it means there's this whole other part of your personality you nothing about and maybe it's okay to not date her after all.

OneTrueGuest

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Post by Werel on Mon Dec 29, 2014 2:06 am

The Mikey wrote:
Gotcha. It happens I guess and looks like I just need to deal with whatever happens then. How I go about it is up to me then, right? Should I go with my script from some posts ago? Because I've asked out girls before, but never told them, "Hey you make my pants tighten up lol".

HAH! Yeah, not a ton of women who'd appreciate that approach, so don't go straight to pants-tightening. "I'd like to take you on a date sometime" is as complicated and detailed as it needs to be. OneTrueGuest's advice is good: keep it SO VERY casual, treat it like the not-big-deal it can indeed be, and (important!) just continue being friendly towards her, regardless of the outcome.

The Mikey wrote:
I always try to be as kind to everyone as possible unless right off the bat they're unpleasant for no reason. It's weird I don't think I can say the same about approaching a good looking dude either, which is funny to think about. But yeah, I'm always willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt because I believe most people are inherently good on the inside, sure I'll run into bad apples, but they're as common as a $2 bill. They only stick out because we remember them more than someone who was nice, which sucks about human nature. :\

GOD MIKEY HOW ARE YOU SO NICE? I must reiterate that, from what you post here, your extreme good-naturedness is a delight.
Werel
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