Dominatrix Margaret Corvid in the New Statesman: If we liberate men’s sexuality, the war against women can end

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Post by reboot on Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:57 pm

SomeSamSeaborn wrote:
Mel wrote:But I really don't think that women as a general group have more control over dating/sexual structures than men do (in fact I believe they have significantly less), and I find it hard to believe anyone could justifiably believe they do if they actually examined the structure instead of having what is really an individual kneejerk response. So if a man's sexual frustration is focused on structural issues about how dating/sex happens in our society, then he should be aiming at very least as much "structural" (rather than, say, jealous) anger at men as a group as at women, if not more. If he isn't doing so, and I haven't seen the sort of men we're discussing here doing so, then it's not justified, because he's not distributing his anger in a just way based on the actual structure he's upset about; he's unjustly directing it all at one party.

Unjustly directing at only one party, yes. Still, the party that acts as systemic messenger to heterosexual guys, so that's where that comes from. Also, to the extent that feminism is responsible for the harmful socialized behavior, women would actually be the group most responsible for the consequences this has on dating structures.

How so? Men also play a part in socialization and dating structures, For those who are of age to date now are socialized to the norms of 15+ years ago since when the people today would have been getting socialized. Remember that relationship starts at about the same time kids learn about all other socialization, so ages 2-3ish is when gender roles start being absorbed.
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Post by Mel on Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:29 pm

SomeSamSeaborn wrote:
Unjustly directing at only one party, yes. Still, the party that acts as systemic messenger to heterosexual guys, so that's where that comes from. Also, to the extent that feminism is responsible for the harmful socialized behavior, women would actually be the group most responsible for the consequences this has on dating structures.

I would disagree that women act as the primary messenger of systemic ideas about dating to guys. I'd imagine the average guy hears far more about what the expectations of men in the dating/sexual world are from men (father, other male relatives, male friends, male advice givers like DNL) and from media produced mainly by men (most TV, movies, books assigned in school, news reporting, etc.) than he does from women, particularly in the more formative years when as a kid he is absorbing all sorts of ideas but not yet actively interacting with women on a dating/sexual level. Unless a boy goes looking for ideas from women, he's not likely to be exposed to a lot of them in his general environment.

I'm also not sure what you mean by "the extent that feminism is responsible for harmful socialized behavior." Which harmful behavior do you think feminism is socializing people with?

I agree with Lady Luck that it makes sense for some men to believe they're justified, I just don't think it makes sense in an objective way.
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Post by eselle28 on Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:49 pm

SomeSamSeaborn wrote:
esselle28 wrote:So, it's hard for me to feel very excited about a picture of men that paints them as needing so very much from women to be in a place where they can relate healthily to us.

Yes, I agree, that's rather dystopian. It equally sucks to be the guy in that picture, because you're always in a position of taking, unable to give something, yourself that would be similarly desired. Question is: does this dystopia describe heterosexual gender relations better than the feminist utopia?

Unable or unwilling? Because I think it's a faulty assumption to set this up as something only men crave. Women equally enjoy the experience of being completely catered to by someone who fully understands and accepts and sympathizes with and meets all their needs. You find some of this in the best bartenders and servers. Gustave H. was providing it in Grand Budapest Hotel. I suspect many celebrities have people around them who regularly do this.

If men want to offer this to women with a sexual twist, there will be takers. The catch is that you don't get to have your own needs met in any way because those interfere with perfectly meeting the other person's, which is why few people do such work without pay and few men do it at all.
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Post by Enail on Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:54 pm

<mod>Sam, you may recall that 'feminism is responsible for harmful socialized behavior' around dating is not exactly one that everyone here agrees with, which means that it's not really something you can just toss into a different discussion as if it's an accepted basic premise, since no one can really respond to that statement without either accepting it or derailing the discussion by arguing with it.

When you want to talk about things you know others here are likely to disagree with, please stay aware of how that will affect the discussion, and be mindful of derailing or bringing in arguments that have been done to death. </mod>

eselle28 wrote:This is a tough article for me, because I agree with a reasonable number of her points, some with tweaks, but her framing of the article and its first few paragraphs make me feel jealous and exhausted and annoyed and a bit angry.

There's a reason this experience she highlights is one seen from the perspective of a sex worker. It's because creating the kind of experience where someone else can share exactly as much of themselves and their secrets as they want to, while making them feel completely safe and desired and valuable leaves essentially no room for your own sexuality and is an incredible amount of effort beyond that. Even a lot of sex workers don't like to provide that level of service. As someone who's attempted to do some kinky things with guys accustomed to going to pros, I can say that it...well...made me rethink the many wonderful traits of vanilla men.

So, it's hard for me to feel very excited about a picture of men that paints them as needing so very much from women to be in a place where they can relate healthily to us. Oh, and also jealous and annoyed and a bit angry. Because there's nowhere I could ever get such an experience myself, not even illegally. The absolute best I can hope for is someone who is willing to do a bit of give and take, and who will let me share and be vulnerable and make me feel valued if I do the same for him. What I'm more frequently told to expect is to play the sex worker role, with my compensation being a relationship. The suggestion that things should tilt more in that direction isn't encouraging, to say the least.

It's funny, I had a very similar reaction, but for the opposite reason. There's already quite a lot of sentiment that a woman who has no interest in giving men sexual pleasure is somehow taking away something that should rightfully be theirs. Charging women with the task of focusing on giving men totally affirming, selfless sexual pleasure in order to solve issues of misogyny and male anger against women is a rather troubling suggestion, even if we assume that she's treating it as a collective responsibility rather than one every individual woman must take up.
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Post by The Wisp on Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:14 pm

eselle28 wrote:The catch is that you don't get to have your own needs met in any way because those interfere with perfectly meeting the other person's, which is why few people do such work without pay and few men do it at all.

For some reason I see a lot of men on reddit who actually do seem to fulfill this role. They say things like "I don't even care if I get off, giving oral is the best part of sex" etc. Though I kinda think maybe it's a bit of unorthodox posturing and bragging, or maybe a rationalization for being doormats.
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Post by eselle28 on Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:28 pm

The Wisp wrote:
eselle28 wrote:The catch is that you don't get to have your own needs met in any way because those interfere with perfectly meeting the other person's, which is why few people do such work without pay and few men do it at all.

For some reason I see a lot of men on reddit who actually do seem to fulfill this role. They say things like "I don't even care if I get off, giving oral is the best part of sex" etc. Though I kinda think maybe it's a bit of unorthodox posturing and bragging, or maybe a rationalization for being doormats.

That's actually not what I'm trying to get at, though, and I don't think it was what the linked article was trying to get at. Those men you're thinking of have desires and are stating them clearly: they like giving oral. What happens when one of them ends up in bed with a woman who finds it uncomfortable or triggering or just boring? In an equal relationship, people compromise or decide they're not compatible. In an atmosphere that's really about making things entirely about the other partner, either the guy drops his request to give oral sex and feigns enthusiasm for whatever actually turns his partner on or the woman agrees to receive it and pretends to adore it. That's why you don't see this much outside of sex that has a transactional component, or perhaps when people are trading off and taking turns being the one catered to.
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Post by eselle28 on Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:40 pm

Enail wrote:
It's funny, I had a very similar reaction, but for the opposite reason. There's already quite a lot of sentiment that a woman who has no interest in giving men sexual pleasure is somehow taking away something that should rightfully be theirs. Charging women with the task of focusing on giving men totally affirming, selfless sexual pleasure in order to solve issues of misogyny and male anger against women is a rather troubling suggestion, even if we assume that she's treating it as a collective responsibility rather than one every individual woman must take up.

That's an excellent point, and I think it helped me put my finger on why I found this article to be much more disturbing than Arden Leigh's very similar advice that was gathered from very similar experiences. I didn't much take to Arden's suggestions, but she was writing an advice book for women on dating men. Women who don't want to date men or who don't want to date them enough to do that sort of work have the option of shrugging off her advice. The way this article sets things up, the thing promised isn't a relationship but safety and equality, both for individual women making those choices and for other women around them. The responsibility that goes with that veers pretty close to commodification and talk about distributing sex as a resource.
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Post by SomeSamSeaborn on Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:55 pm

Mel wrote:I would disagree that women act as the primary messenger of systemic ideas about dating to guys. I'd imagine the average guy hears far more about what the expectations of men in the dating/sexual world are from men (father, other male relatives, male friends, male advice givers like DNL) and from media produced mainly by men (most TV, movies, books assigned in school, news reporting, etc.) than he does from women, particularly in the more formative years when as a kid he is absorbing all sorts of ideas but not yet actively interacting with women on a dating/sexual level. Unless a boy goes looking for ideas from women, he's not likely to be exposed to a lot of them in his general environment.

Well, yeah, when I used messenger, I meant that they will interact with women in a sexual/romantic way, so whatever messages have been internalized, regardless of what gender is responsible for them
, and are now behaviorally embodied, they will be presented to heterosexual men by women. That's what I meant with "messenger". When an airline charges you unfairly for additional baggage, you'll interact with their employee, not the people who made the rules. So, whoever made the rules, when it doesn't work out, the person heterosexual guys are interacting with is likely a woman. I'm not saying that's fair, I was merely offering my suggestion why one party is more often blamed than the other by a particular group.

Mel wrote:I'm also not sure what you mean by "the extent that feminism is responsible for harmful socialized behavior." Which harmful behavior do you think feminism is socializing people with?

Well, I think it is creating behavioral confusion, intentionally, for good reasons, mostly, but behavioral confusion nonetheless. And while confusion may be necessary to break social standards up in ways that are considered better for everyone, that's also making some people's lives harder, and that is, in my humble opinion, not merely a personal issue, although, certainly, its effects will be amplified by personal issues. Also, I don't think that's sufficiently covered by "losing privilege is hard", because having reliable behavioral expectations is, I think, not really privilege.

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Post by LadyIkaros on Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:05 pm

The Wisp wrote:For some reason I see a lot of men on reddit who actually do seem to fulfill this role. They say things like "I don't even care if I get off, giving oral is the best part of sex" etc. Though I kinda think maybe it's a bit of unorthodox posturing and bragging, or maybe a rationalization for being doormats.

For some their partner's excitement is pretty much the best thing about sex. Call it vanity or a kind of ego boost or whatever, but it's a preference like so many others. And can very well be more about dominance than about being a doormat.
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Post by SomeSamSeaborn on Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:06 pm

eselle28 wrote:Unable or unwilling? Because I think it's a faulty assumption to set this up as something only men crave. ... If men want to offer this to women with a sexual twist, there will be takers.

Some, probably. But I think "unable" is right in general, because I don't think many women would consider a man who offered that suffiently attractive in the classic masculine sense. Among all the couples who broke up in my environment in the last ten years, after being together for several years, I'd say the main reason was, even in the words of the women, that women losing interest in their boyfriends/husbands because they weren't sufficiently selfish (considered as not manly) and put the interests of their girlfriends first, which led to the women dumping them. I'd say that's a rather fair description of about 60-70% of the split ups among my friends.

Edit: incidentally, that's where I don't think Corvid is right about the the idea that feminism and freeing male and female sexuality will help a lot unless female patterns of desire in men actually change in a perceivable way.

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Post by nearly_takuan on Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:08 pm

That's one way to spin it, but you could also look at it as being an apathetic partner. Boy is not actually giving Girl everything she wants if one of the things she wants is for him to say what he wants and he insists on not communicating.


Last edited by nearly_takuan on Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by LadyIkaros on Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:11 pm

SomeSamSeaborn wrote: Well, I think it is creating behavioral confusion, intentionally, for good reasons, mostly, but behavioral confusion nonetheless. And while confusion may be necessary to break social standards up in ways that are considered better for everyone, that's also making some people's lives harder, and that is, in my humble opinion, not merely a personal issue, although, certainly, its effects will be amplified by personal issues. Also, I don't think that's sufficiently covered by "losing privilege is hard", because having reliable behavioral expectations is, I think, not really privilege.

Is this something about harking back to the mythical days of olde, where everything about human mating behaviour was strictly ritualized, everyone always knew the rules (one set, carved in stone), and there was never any confusion?
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Post by SomeSamSeaborn on Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:15 pm

Enail wrote:There's already quite a lot of sentiment that a woman who has no interest in giving men sexual pleasure is somehow taking away something that should rightfully be theirs.

I find that most interesting, because I never had that sentiment. All I ever learned about sexuality from early on was how men are horrible and taking and a good lover would do all for women - of course also because that would be how they would be interested in more. It wasn't until I read Foster-Wallace's brief interviews with hideous men, where, I think, a janitor explains how that's never going to make women happy because of the value disparaty it demonstrates, and that a good lover actually *must*, at times, demand things and not only give. If *we* don't think our sexuality has value, how are women supposed to believe that. But a sentiment that a blowjob were rightfully mine? I wish I'd heard of that sentiment growing up.

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Post by SomeSamSeaborn on Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:17 pm

LadyIkaros wrote:Is this something about harking back to the mythical days of olde, where everything about human mating behaviour was strictly ritualized, everyone always knew the rules (one set, carved in stone), and there was never any confusion?

Well, there's confusion, and then there's *confusion*. I think we're in an age of *confusion*, for the better and worse.

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Post by Werel on Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:27 pm

nearly_takuan wrote:That's one way to spin it, but you could also look at it as being an apathetic partner. Boy is not actually giving Girl everything she wants if one of the things she wants is for him to say what he wants and he insists on not communicating.

Exactly this. I think that apathy and/or emotional withdrawal can look, from the outside, like someone's just being accommodating. But refusing to let your partner do any of the "give" in give-and-take is also a pretty foolproof way to kill intimacy.

SomeSamSeaborn wrote: But a sentiment that a blowjob were rightfully mine? I wish I'd heard of that sentiment growing up.

Really? Side-eye
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Post by LadyIkaros on Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:32 pm

SomeSamSeaborn wrote: Well, there's confusion, and then there's *confusion*. I think we're in an age of *confusion*, for the better and worse.

I really don't. Life has always been a messy thing. Of course, if you live in a society where enough people are privileged enough to actually have a variety of options and choices to make, (and I do mean people, not just woman shaped people), some predictability may go out the window. This, in my not so humble opinion, is a small price to pay for having options and choices in life.
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Post by Enail on Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:38 pm

SomeSamSeaborn wrote:
Enail wrote:There's already quite a lot of sentiment that a woman who has no interest in giving men sexual pleasure is somehow taking away something that should rightfully be theirs.

I find that most interesting, because I never had that sentiment. All I ever learned about sexuality from early on was how men are horrible and taking and a good lover would do all for women - of course also because that would be how they would be interested in more. It wasn't until I read Foster-Wallace's brief interviews with hideous men, where, I think, a janitor explains how that's never going to make women happy because of the value disparaty it demonstrates, and that a good lover actually *must*, at times, demand things and not only give. If *we* don't think our sexuality has value, how are women supposed to believe that. But a sentiment that a blowjob were rightfully mine? I wish I'd heard of that sentiment growing up.

Okay, Sam, can you see why responding to someone saying "'Women who don't want to have sex with men are denying men what's rightfully theirs' is a common message out there" with "Wow, I wish I'd heard that sentiment," might not be a terribly appropriate thing to do in a civil conversation?
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Post by Mel on Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:41 pm

SomeSamSeaborn wrote:I'm not saying that's fair, I was merely offering my suggestion why one party is more often blamed than the other by a particular group.

Um, no, you were "merely" saying that men being angry at women for their frustration may be "justified". Last time I checked, saying something is justified is indeed saying it's fair, given that the words are synonyms. If you actually agree with me that it's not really justified/fair, how about you just say that? I never disputed that it might make sense for men to unfairly blame women more, so bringing that up is totally irrelevant.

SomeSamSeaborn wrote:
Mel wrote:I'm also not sure what you mean by "the extent that feminism is responsible for harmful socialized behavior." Which harmful behavior do you think feminism is socializing people with?

Well, I think it is creating behavioral confusion, intentionally, for good reasons, mostly, but behavioral confusion nonetheless. And while confusion may be necessary to break social standards up in ways that are considered better for everyone, that's also making some people's lives harder, and that is, in my humble opinion, not merely a personal issue, although, certainly, its effects will be amplified by personal issues. Also, I don't think that's sufficiently covered by "losing privilege is hard", because having reliable behavioral expectations is, I think, not really privilege.

"Creating behavioral confusion" is not socializing people to behave in certain ways. It is making people question what the ethical way to behave is (in this case, because what many feminists say is ethical contradicts the behavior many people have been socialized to perform). There is no way to point out that certain types of behavior that have been socialized are problematic without creating some confusion. Blaming the people trying to tackle problematic socialization for not finding some magical way of changing everyone's minds without confusion, or going even further and suggesting that their tackling the problem is them being "responsible for" the problematic socialized behavior (I mean, seriously, what???), is not, IMHO, justified or fair. Again, remember, we weren't talking about whether it makes sense that people might feel a certain way, but whether feeling that way is in fact justified--i.e., supported by the facts.

This is basically like saying that people who feel frustrated because they're denying themselves things they'd enjoy to reduce their carbon footprint are justified in being angry at environmental scientists because other people are still continuing to do whatever they want as if global warming doesn't exist... despite the fact that the scientists are the ones trying to convince people it does. "How dare you try to fight for a thing I agree is important and not instantly succeed in convincing all people to completely abandon their socialization!"? Really? scratch

If what you really mean is, "It's not fair for men to get angry at women for standing up for their rights, but there are understandable explanations for why some men end up feeling that way," fine. I can agree with that. Then say that.
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Post by reboot on Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:57 pm

Ethical behavior at its heart is confusing. And that is a good thing since it comes from the conflicts between what we desire and what we know to be ethical. Unethical behavior is easy since it just factors in what we desire against the risk of being punished for that desire
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Post by Mel on Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:57 pm

SomeSamSeaborn wrote:
Enail wrote:There's already quite a lot of sentiment that a woman who has no interest in giving men sexual pleasure is somehow taking away something that should rightfully be theirs.

I find that most interesting, because I never had that sentiment.

In addition to enail's later point...

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you never noticed this sentiment growing up. But surely sometime in your life you have encountered movies/TV shows/books that included a "cold fish" female character whose unwillingness to be sexually open and loving with her partner was treated as a villainous quality and the man was portrayed as a martyr if he stayed with her or heroic if he left her? Surely you have seen commentary on female public figures that shames them for appearing uptight and reserved? Surely you have heard women talk about boyfriends pressuring them to have sex and suggesting things like "if you really loved me, you'd sleep with me/do X sexual act" and/or accusing the woman of unfairly denying them if she refused? Surely you have noticed the common theme that comes up in the comments on certain DNL articles where some men express anger that women won't "give them a chance" (sometimes to date them which they generally imagine including sex, sometimes simply to have sex) or choose not to have sex rather than having sex with one of the supposedly many men who'd be happy to?

I'm pretty sure you'd have to be literally living under a rock your entire life not to be aware that this sentiment exists. Maybe you weren't exposed to it enough for it to sink in, or were exposed to enough contradictory messages that it didn't sink in, for you, but to act as if this is the first you've ever heard of it, as if you had no idea this might be something other men grew up believing, is ridiculous, and frankly kind of insulting to the people you're talking to.
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Post by eselle28 on Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:15 pm

SomeSamSeaborn wrote:
eselle28 wrote:Unable or unwilling? Because I think it's a faulty assumption to set this up as something only men crave. ... If men want to offer this to women with a sexual twist, there will be takers.

Some, probably. But I think "unable" is right in general, because I don't think many women would consider a man who offered that suffiently attractive in the classic masculine sense. Among all the couples who broke up in my environment in the last ten years, after being together for several years, I'd say the main reason was, even in the words of the women, that women losing interest in their boyfriends/husbands because they weren't sufficiently selfish (considered as not manly) and put the interests of their girlfriends first, which led to the women dumping them. I'd say that's a rather fair description of about 60-70% of the split ups among my friends.

Edit: incidentally, that's where I don't think Corvid is right about the the idea that feminism and freeing male and female sexuality will help a lot unless female patterns of desire in men actually change in a perceivable way.

Then we disagree, as we often do. The breakups I've seen have been for a variety of reasons, but I can't think of any that have followed the pattern you describe, and I don't think that excessively catering to your partner's preferences (which I'll clarify I think is unhealthy if done more than occasionally in a non-transactional way and isn't a desirable way to behave) has to be coded as feminine. A man could very well be catering to some women's fantasies by perfectly embodying a masculine, aggressive persona at all times, even though it doesn't always suit him.

I'd at least request that we treat this claim that men would love to give infinite understanding and catering to services to women if only women wanted it as one opinion rather than a commonly held assumption.


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Post by The Wisp on Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:31 pm

Mel wrote:I will give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you never noticed this sentiment growing up. But surely sometime in your life you have encountered movies/TV shows/books that included a "cold fish" female character whose unwillingness to be sexually open and loving with her partner was treated as a villainous quality and the man was portrayed as a martyr if he stayed with her or heroic if he left her? Surely you have seen commentary on female public figures that shames them for appearing uptight and reserved? Surely you have heard women talk about boyfriends pressuring them to have sex and suggesting things like "if you really loved me, you'd sleep with me/do X sexual act" and/or accusing the woman of unfairly denying them if she refused? Surely you have noticed the common theme that comes up in the comments on certain DNL articles where some men express anger that women won't "give them a chance" (sometimes to date them which they generally imagine including sex, sometimes simply to have sex) or choose not to have sex rather than having sex with one of the supposedly many men who'd be happy to?

I'm pretty sure you'd have to be literally living under a rock your entire life not to be aware that this sentiment exists. Maybe you weren't exposed to it enough for it to sink in, or were exposed to enough contradictory messages that it didn't sink in, for you, but to act as if this is the first you've ever heard of it, as if you had no idea this might be something other men grew up believing, is ridiculous, and frankly kind of insulting to the people you're talking to.

To be honest, I had a very similar experience as sam growing up. I don't know what it was. Probably a big part of it was a nerdy elitism I had as a midteen where I very deliberately avoided anything macho or jock-like, so I wasn't exposed to much of it, and furthermore looked down upon the guys who were like that (and the girls who dated them).

What I also saw in media was male characters were non-sexual at best, and gross and comedic at worst, until they basically saved the world/won the tournament/took a noble risk/whatever. Things I could never do. Generally, in my memory, the guys who were entitled were skeevy and unattractive. Maybe we saw the same things and I (and sam) interpreted them differently?

As for the real life things you mentioned? For the most part I wasn't exposed to them nor even heard about them, save on feminist stuff on the internet. They seemed like rare occurrences to me at the time. I mean, I was socially isolated, but I wasn't living under a rock either.

(and, for what it is worth, I think the degree of sex-negativity and shaming around male sexuality in media and public discourse is vastly underrated, even by feminists)


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Post by azazel on Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:41 pm

The Wisp wrote:
To be honest, I had a very similar experience as sam growing up. I don't know what it was. Probably a big part of it was a nerdy elitism I had as a midteen where I very deliberately avoided anything macho or jock-like, so I wasn't exposed to much of it, and furthermore looked down upon the guys who were like that (and the girls who dated them).

What I also saw in media was male characters were non-sexual at best, and gross and comedic at worst, if and until they basically saved the world/won the tournament/took a noble risk/whatever. Things I could never do. Generally, in my memory, the guys who were entitled were skeevy and unattractive. Maybe we saw the same things and I (and sam) interpreted them differently?

Yeah, guys like those that told their girlfriends they should have sex with them or they didn't love them were generally portrayed as the assholes they are in my memory.

The rants about "how they should just me a chance" I did hear about tho, but I'm now genuinely curious whether that's not just a normal reaction?

I've heard the same rant from men and women and everything inbetween, in romantic context and in business context, anywhere where people were dealing with rejection really. Everyone always believes they were the perfect candidate for the job/relationship, but the other party just didn't look good enough at their amazing qualities.
Curious whether other people have different experiences in their social groups.

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Post by Enail on Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:57 pm

I'm rather surprised that none of you have ever heard homophobic comments that suggest that gay women are worthless, broken or failing to be proper women, or that it's "a waste" if an attractive woman is gay, asexual, disabled in a way that causes others to see them as incapable of being sexual, or celibate by choice - if a woman is not perceived, for whatever reason, as likely to have sex with men.

But perhaps you could take it from me that those messages are in fact out there, and we could return to discussing how that and other messages out there relate to the article and our reactions thereto?
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Post by The Wisp on Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:01 pm

Enail wrote:I'm rather surprised that none of you have ever heard homophobic comments that suggest that gay women are worthless, broken or failing to be proper women, or that it's "a waste" if an attractive woman is gay, asexual, disabled in a way that causes others to see them as incapable of being sexual, or celibate by choice.

But perhaps you could take it from me that those messages are in fact out there, and we could return to discussing how that and other messages out there relate to the article and our reactions thereto?

Well, I never heard those messages. Of course, there are many factors that could explain that, but most important probably is that I lived in (and still live in) an extremely liberal, extremely gay-friendly, and more feminist than average place and I was socially isolated so most of my experience of my peers was in school around adults, not in more candid moments.

I take your word for it that those messages are out there, and it sucks and I'm sad that many woman have been exposed to them.
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