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Post by Guest on Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:12 pm

Kind of a change of pace. Once again, poor Glides can't interpret body language and thus has a 50% chance of completely misreading things either way.

Remember that he can't tell if a girl is attracted to him or not. Ever. And since he's a fucking coward, he's far too scared to make a move and be rejected. He can't force himself to, it's awful.

With that in mind:

God, this is gonna sound so petty but it's been boggling my head.

So there's like a .000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% chance some chick actually likes me, and I like that chick too, and if I'm not 99.9999999999999999999999999999999% wrong like I usually am...holy fuck.

Of course, the thing getting in the way of knowing for sure (which you never really do, fuck fuck fuck) is that I can't read body language very well.

So I could very easily misinterpret what could just be friendly gestures as an invitation, which I actually did recently (lucky for me, I handled that pretty well, but said friend who I was mildly attracted to refuses to speak to me again. This is gonna sound generalized, but it seems like the default reaction for a woman who is told by a man they're not attracted to that they're attracted to them is immediately breaking off all contact. I fucking hate that).

I'd never hung out with this chick socially, and despite being two years younger than me is actually my senior manager at my shit job, and there's been moments in which I've caught myself staring at her ass and mentally beat myself for it. "You fucking rapist, you fucking sexist, you fucking misogynist." The whole deal. Jerkbrain has been using feminism as a way to hurt me. "If you're going to be a progressive human being, then you need to remember that any kind of desire you might have is disgusting and wrong and they'll put you in jail for even smiling at a woman." Not rational, but it works in basically shutting me down around girls these days. Before it was "you're so ugly," now it's "they don't want you because you're a man without any kind of charisma or six-packs whatsoever." Fuck, you got me, jerkbrain.

Anyway, as the days have gone by, she's gotten increasingly friendly, and there's been a couple situations in which she could've been flirting. Like last night, I tried to get the coffee mug to serve people, and she deliberately got in my way, and I softly took her by the shoulders and pushed her out of my way. And she giggled and said, "I'm gonna report you for sexual harassment, big boy." And I couldn't figure out the tone, except that it wasn't negative, and I just turned into Default Stuttering Mess again.

But anyway, after work, all the employees (including two of my friends who work with me) hung out for the first time, and she suddenly got even more animated than before, and paying strict attention to me whenever I talked, and randomly patting my arm whenever she laughed, and I just couldn't fucking tell. And every moment I had to repress the urge to scream out "I LIKE YOU DO YOU LIKE ME LETS DO SEXY STUFF NOW."

I mean, granted, it's not like "I'm so in love with you" kinda attraction that would happen earlier in my life (so yay, Enail, there's your goddamn progress for you), it was basically "I'm attracted to you. Something about you that isn't just your ass and your body is very appealing to me. And I'd like to know more about you as a person. But you know, I'm a fucking idiot, so I'm not really expecting anything."

I mean, Jesus, the fact that it's been so freaking long since I've actually met someone I would actually like to date, genuinely date, that's what's interesting about it. And the fact that it seems like I'm finally being attracted to people in a far more mature way than the teenage "I LOVE YOU FOREVER LET ME WORSHIP YOU IN EXCHANGE FOR SEXYTIMES PLZZZZZZZZ" that I did, which in itself was very off-putting. So yay, I also know why no one liked me in high school, I was a desperate pedestal-putting fuckup.

Now I'm just a fuckup. And I actually like this new attraction, because it's not some overwhelming thing. I mean, yeah, I'm still incredibly likely to be confusing friendliness for attraction and she has no interest in me (she's like really attractive, guys. No freaking joke). I sure as shit can't ask her out since I'm never alone with her.

So basically that's my pickle, because there's 3 ways this ends:

1. She's not attracted to me, and I'm once again using wish fulfillment to make everything worse.

2. She is attracted to me, and I'm going to wait so long to do anything about it that she'll lose interest. And girls can break off their attraction instantaneously, the second she decides I'm not worth it in "Glides-Is-Attractive-Reality," I'll never have a chance.

3. No seriously, this chick is way too hot to lower her standards like that. It would be an extremely illogical move on her part.

I just feel like if there's a God, he's taunting me again, saying "HAHAHAHAHA, this is what you want, and you can't have it!" I really do see God as someone dedicated to my suffering, an opinion I'd never say out loud. I don't like him very much.

Anyway, yeah, I really can't tell. I don't want to confuse things again. I wish I was brave. I really need to try repressing my attraction again, this won't end well.

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Post by trooper6 on Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:21 pm

My advice would be to not act on these feelings in this case.
Why? She's your senior manager at work!
I think it is never wise (and might also be against company policy) to date, or attempt to date, someone in your work chain of command.

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Post by Guest on Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:38 pm

trooper6 wrote:My advice would be to not act on these feelings in this case.
Why? She's your senior manager at work!
I think it is never wise (and might also be against company policy) to date, or attempt to date, someone in your work chain of command.

Right, fuck, thanks for catching me in time.

I told you God hated me.

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Post by Caffeinated on Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:41 pm

Ok, first, I agree with trooper6 about the perils of dating someone at work.

But anyway, reading through your story, Glides, it sounds like she likes you in some kind of way. I don't know if it's a "attracted-we-should-date" way or a "just-enjoy-flirting-with-you" way. But what you describe of her actions sounds like textbook flirting.

My advice in this case would be not to act on it because of the work thing, but just to enjoy it. Keep getting to know her and enjoy her company, enjoy the flirting, maybe practice flirting a little yourself.

You gave 3 negative ways this could end. I'll counter with three positive ways it could end:

1. You could get closer to each other over time and become good friends.

2.You could get closer over time and one of you could go to a different job and end up dating once that obstacle is out of the way.

3. The situation could stay about like it is now and add a little smile to your days at work.
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Post by UristMcBunny on Sun Feb 01, 2015 1:52 pm

I second the "enjoy it" aspect. It can be freeing to be able to just enjoy the fun and positive aspects of a crush, especially mutual ones, when there's zero pressure to actually do anything with it. This could be a great opportunity for you to just enjoy some positive attention, play with flirting and indulge some private fantasies, whatever form they happen to take. And you never have to worry about the what-ifs, because it's all just for fun.

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Post by StrangePanda on Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:56 pm

Glides, since I'm new here I don't know if you always think / write like this and I don't know if you really want to read what I want to say but the amount of stereotypes in your post is making me sad. However, I don't know if it will be productive and useful to point them out. Let me know if you do want to discuss them.

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Post by BasedBuzzed on Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:26 pm

What are the particularities of the job? Is it possible to be shuffled around in the roster if something does end up happening? Not to be instilling false hope, but the notion that this power imbalance is something that can't be solved in a smart manner smells a tad defeatist. Of course, the risks are higher if you're fresh to relationships, but just tossing this out there.

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Post by Guest on Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:16 pm

StrangePanda wrote:Glides, since I'm new here I don't know if you always think / write like this and I don't know if you really want to read what I want to say but the amount of stereotypes in your post is making me sad. However, I don't know if it will be productive and useful to point them out. Let me know if you do want to discuss them.

I spoke way too much about her body and I called her hot, that's all I caught skimming through again. I'm a sexist who objectifies attractive women, I'm trying to stop that.

So I'll apologize for everything else I didn't catch.

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Post by StrangePanda on Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:40 pm

Nooooooo, Glides, I don't want you to apologize! That's not what I mean! I found a lot of  your stereotypes about youself in your post and I think you're hurting yourself when there is no need.

Glides wrote:
Jerkbrain has been using feminism as a way to hurt me. "If you're going to be a progressive human being, then you need to remember that any kind of desire you might have is disgusting and wrong and they'll put you in jail for even smiling at a woman."  

Wait what? What feminism has to do with smiling? Why do you think that desire and feminism are the enemies? Since when having desire is disgusting?
I don't know where did you find these ideas but there are incredibly wrong and toxic. I don't know but smiling? If you smirk like a douchebag predator while licking your lips at a woman out of nowhere, yeah that'll be weird, but an ordinary open smile? I believe you're thinking way too extreme.

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Post by Guest on Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:10 am

StrangePanda wrote:Nooooooo, Glides, I don't want you to apologize! That's not what I mean! I found a lot of  your stereotypes about youself in your post and I think you're hurting yourself when there is no need.

Glides wrote:
Jerkbrain has been using feminism as a way to hurt me. "If you're going to be a progressive human being, then you need to remember that any kind of desire you might have is disgusting and wrong and they'll put you in jail for even smiling at a woman."  

Wait what? What feminism has to do with smiling? Why do you think that desire and feminism are the enemies? Since when having desire is disgusting?
I don't know where did you find these ideas but there are incredibly wrong and toxic. I don't know but smiling? If you smirk like a douchebag predator while licking your lips at a woman out of nowhere, yeah that'll be weird, but an ordinary open smile? I believe you're thinking way too extreme.

It's not a completely rational idea, and it applies more to me personally than every guy who ever lived. I view sexually desiring people as a personal insult to them, regardless of how irrational that is. It's kinda the remnant of pedestal thinking, that me wanting them is disgusting. But me specifically. It's a very strange form of subconscious slut shaming because it only applies to me personally. Any other dude is sexually attracted to a chick? Eh whatever. But if it's me, suddenly I feel like I'm insulting them at the same time.

Being desired by someone you don't desire is inherently a bit creepy anyway, so that's basically unavoidable.

None of these thought processes are rational. Feminism is not my enemy, just my sexual desire.

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Post by ggobsessed on Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:51 am

Soooo. First of all, it totally sounds like she is flirting with you. A couple of things could be going on. Is she perhaps a naturally flirtatious person? If she is, then the flirting could mean that's just how she communicates, or she could be truly attracted to you. If she's not a flirtatious person, then she could be flirting with you just because she finds you attractive, or she could be flirting because she's genuinely interested in you. As in, she's flirting with you because she might want to date you or because you're a cute guy at work.

Second of all, she is not someone you should date. Just enjoy the flirtation, as others have said.

Third of all, she's too hot to lower her standards for you? You're sexist for staring at her ass, and that's feminism's fault? Um. No. If you think that feminism teaches men that finding women attractive is inherently sexist then you're totally misinterpreting feminist teachings, and it might be better for you if you stop reading feminist literature for now.

Look, maybe this girl is too hot for you. I don't know. But you don't know WHAT her standards are. You might be her physical type. Or maybe she doesn't give a shit how a guy looks. Thinking someone is too hot to be interested in you, especially when they're totally flirting with you, is just a really self-defeating way of thinking.

Also, just because you think she's hot doesn't mean she thinks she is.

As for staring at her ass. I can tell you this much - if she's attracted to you, in all likelihood she really likes it that you're doing it. All I know is that I and every straight girl I know, we like it when the boy we find attractive clearly finds us attractive. It's only bad when the guy is doing it in a really demeaning way - I don't know how to explain it. And if she's NOT attracted to you? It's entirely possible that she's not offended by you checking out her ass.


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Post by Enail on Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:45 am

This is good, Glides! You're keeping your feelings in proportion, you're recognizing potential signs of interest from her without either letting your insecurities shut it down or leaping to conclusions, you're not defensively putting her down to satisfy your jerkbrain.

Like everyone else is saying, enjoy the feeling for what it is. Since you know that you sometimes have some pretty strong reactions to both rejection and positive interest, it's probably a good idea to be cautious about if/how you act on it, and make sure you leave yourself room to have the intense feelings that might come up, without harming your situation at work or being unkind as a defensive reaction. If things change and she's not your manager later on, and you want to ask her out, cool - but prepare yourself for a no and for a yes, and be ready to look after yourself in either case. If you aren't comfortable asking her out, or you find you're not as into her at that point, you don't have to. If you ask her out and she says yes, remember that you are allowed to go at your own pace, that you don't have to do anything you don't want to do.

Now, those kinds of things are all only possibilities that depend on a whole lot of different things, and I don't want to encourage you to put the cart before the horse and worry too much about ifs and maybes. What you have right now is a feeling. But I want you to remember that a feeling is not an obligation; you liking her, her liking you doesn't mean anything about what you have to do. Remember that it's okay to pay attention to what you want in the moment, to take things one step at a time, to have boundaries based on what you want rather than what you feel like you should want. Whatever you do, I think remembering that you have the choice might help you act in ways you can feel good about later on.
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Post by StrangePanda on Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:45 pm

ggobsessed wrote:You're sexist for staring at her ass, and that's feminism's fault? Um. No.

As for staring at her ass. I can tell you this much - if she's attracted to you, in all likelihood she really likes it that you're doing it.  All I know is that I and every straight girl I know, we like it when the boy we find attractive clearly finds us attractive. It's only bad when the guy is doing it in a really demeaning way - I don't know how to explain it. And if she's NOT attracted to you? It's entirely possible that she's not offended by you checking out her ass.


Yesss, exactly what I wanted to say, but didn't know how to put it in words. Appreciating other people's bodies is not gross as long as it's not too openly  / you don't make sexual comments / you don't touch the butt. I mean stealing glances at a cute butt is completely normal and everyone is doing it ( I do anyway and a lot of people I know do it too. )
Glides, you are not gross and your desire is not gross.

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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:53 pm

StrangePanda wrote:
ggobsessed wrote:You're sexist for staring at her ass, and that's feminism's fault? Um. No.

As for staring at her ass. I can tell you this much - if she's attracted to you, in all likelihood she really likes it that you're doing it.  All I know is that I and every straight girl I know, we like it when the boy we find attractive clearly finds us attractive. It's only bad when the guy is doing it in a really demeaning way - I don't know how to explain it. And if she's NOT attracted to you? It's entirely possible that she's not offended by you checking out her ass.


Yesss, exactly what I wanted to say, but didn't know how to put it in words. Appreciating other people's bodies is not gross as long as it's not too openly  / you don't make sexual comments / you don't  touch the butt. I mean stealing glances at a cute butt is completely normal and everyone is doing it ( I do anyway and a lot of people I know do it too. )
Glides, you are not gross and your desire is not gross.

Well like I've said before, it's more disgust at myself than anything else, regardless of what other people think. I'm conditioned to believe that I don't deserve to be happy.

That plus being a virgin plus being a complete fuckup in every way plus not having any desirable characteristics equals me finding myself disgusting. And it's not really something you can fix with exercise and a good diet, though it's helped a bit. You can't exercise your way into being amazing.

I'm not that kind of guy. I don't have the X-factor, and I'm realizing that's what I've been missing this entire time, and that's purely genetic luck. I'm like that blue whale with the deformed vocal cords, meaning she can never make a proper mating call. Maybe I look the same as other people, but I don't have the mating call, the X-factor, the something.

And I respond to this fact by complaining about it on the internet. But if you track my posts (and it's not an invitation, you don't want to), you'll see a pretty consistent theme emerge: I'm ugly, nobody likes me, boo hoo hoo. I've spent the past two years bitching on the forum about what a loser I am. That's literally all I do here. Ask anyone else on here what I do: "he bitches and complains for being genetically deficient."

So I'm easily the most negative and self-pitying person you'll ever meet, and that's my life. So yes, I am quite gross.

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Post by Enail on Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:12 am

Glides, you sound like you're getting into a bit of a negative spiral and black-and-white thinking there. Don't listen to the jerk-brain!!
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Post by UristMcBunny on Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:47 am

Jerk-brain sucks and wants you to feel bad. I agree with Enail -Jerkbrain can go take a running jump!

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Post by Prajnaparamita on Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:41 pm

Glides wrote:
Well like I've said before, it's more disgust at myself than anything else, regardless of what other people think. I'm conditioned to believe that I don't deserve to be happy.

That plus being a virgin plus being a complete fuckup in every way plus not having any desirable characteristics equals me finding myself disgusting. And it's not really something you can fix with exercise and a good diet, though it's helped a bit. You can't exercise your way into being amazing.

I'm not that kind of guy. I don't have the X-factor, and I'm realizing that's what I've been missing this entire time, and that's purely genetic luck. I'm like that blue whale with the deformed vocal cords, meaning she can never make a proper mating call. Maybe I look the same as other people, but I don't have the mating call, the X-factor, the something.

And I respond to this fact by complaining about it on the internet. But if you track my posts (and it's not an invitation, you don't want to), you'll see a pretty consistent theme emerge: I'm ugly, nobody likes me, boo hoo hoo. I've spent the past two years bitching on the forum about what a loser I am. That's literally all I do here. Ask anyone else on here what I do: "he bitches and complains for being genetically deficient."

So I'm easily the most negative and self-pitying person you'll ever meet, and that's my life. So yes, I am quite gross.

Sooo, ummm.... Glides, I know this might not be the best foot to start things off with again with you, but I thought I'd be upfront--I think I owe you some money. I'm not actually sure whether or not its possible to be an artificial construct, because its something that doesn't actually exist, but then again skyscrapers are artificially constructed, and nobody is denying they exist. Anyway, I'm not sure whether or not this would help, but early on in our relationship my boyfriend mentioned something about noticing my ass the first time we met. I responded by being like "wait, what, you were checking me out then?" and he gave a sheepish "well, yeah..." and the thing is I was really flattered by that--knowing that he had been attracted to me well before I even knew it. And in the rare chance that I do catch someone checking me out in a non-creepy way (like I just happened to glance in his direction at that very moment, not that he was staring, which I highly doubt you'd do) the absolute worst that he might ever get is a little eye roll as I move along in my day. If its not creepy, I'm either flattered, don't care, or far and away most likely didn't even notice. So really, please don't worry about that.

As for attractiveness and you just don't have *it*, whatever that is, (nice analogy with the blue whales, by the way--would you mind if I stole it for some future moment of melodrama? Its my favorite combo of well-read and ridiculous--I really do enjoy your writing, I mean it) well I'm not sure what can help you right now, because you seem pretty entrenched in your negative thinking on this one. But I can say this--I used to think I was fairly certain about what I found interesting and attractive in guys. For instance, chest hair is gross, and smooth chested guys are just the most wonderful thing to look at ever. For instance, my current boyfriend could probably double function as a bear skin rug. There are certain things that I just find attractive, that hook me into people initially--but that's often all it is, an initial hook of interest, what they do with it from there is up to them. With my boyfriend I had a weird period in our early friendship of being like "well this is kinda odd, I think I kinda might sort of be starting to be attracted to you somehow?" and finding it slowly grow from there. I certainly wasn't hearing the mating call from the very moment we met, if that makes any sense. For some people, that's how connections are made I suppose, but I don't think there's some kind of magic factor you need to have with everyone for attraction to be possible.

I don't know if any of this will be able to help your jerkbrain stop being such a jerk--it really quite sucks how he keeps on doing that. Its not fair at all. But at the very least please don't beat yourself up over involuntarily finding yourself subtly checking out someone who you find attractive.
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Post by ggobsessed on Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:52 am


[/quote]

Yesss, exactly what I wanted to say, but didn't know how to put it in words. Appreciating other people's bodies is not gross as long as it's not too openly  / you don't make sexual comments / you don't  touch the butt. I mean stealing glances at a cute butt is completely normal and everyone is doing it ( I do anyway and a lot of people I know do it too. )
Glides, you are not gross and your desire is not gross.[/quote]

I am so glad what I said made sense. I feel like the key term is APPRECIATING another person's body, as opposed to viewing someone as nothing but that body part. That is offensive. It's like...A guy talking to you and periodically quickly glancing down at your legs is totally ok, regardless of whether you're attracted to him. A guy just staring at your legs - No. Never. MAYBE if I'm already dating the person.

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Post by ggobsessed on Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:47 am

Glides wrote:
StrangePanda wrote:
ggobsessed wrote:You're sexist for staring at her ass, and that's feminism's fault? Um. No.

As for staring at her ass. I can tell you this much - if she's attracted to you, in all likelihood she really likes it that you're doing it.  All I know is that I and every straight girl I know, we like it when the boy we find attractive clearly finds us attractive. It's only bad when the guy is doing it in a really demeaning way - I don't know how to explain it. And if she's NOT attracted to you? It's entirely possible that she's not offended by you checking out her ass.


Yesss, exactly what I wanted to say, but didn't know how to put it in words. Appreciating other people's bodies is not gross as long as it's not too openly  / you don't make sexual comments / you don't  touch the butt. I mean stealing glances at a cute butt is completely normal and everyone is doing it ( I do anyway and a lot of people I know do it too. )
Glides, you are not gross and your desire is not gross.

Well like I've said before, it's more disgust at myself than anything else, regardless of what other people think. I'm conditioned to believe that I don't deserve to be happy.

That plus being a virgin plus being a complete fuckup in every way plus not having any desirable characteristics equals me finding myself disgusting. And it's not really something you can fix with exercise and a good diet, though it's helped a bit. You can't exercise your way into being amazing.

I'm not that kind of guy. I don't have the X-factor, and I'm realizing that's what I've been missing this entire time, and that's purely genetic luck. I'm like that blue whale with the deformed vocal cords, meaning she can never make a proper mating call. Maybe I look the same as other people, but I don't have the mating call, the X-factor, the something.

And I respond to this fact by complaining about it on the internet. But if you track my posts (and it's not an invitation, you don't want to), you'll see a pretty consistent theme emerge: I'm ugly, nobody likes me, boo hoo hoo. I've spent the past two years bitching on the forum about what a loser I am. That's literally all I do here. Ask anyone else on here what I do: "he bitches and complains for being genetically deficient."

So I'm easily the most negative and self-pitying person you'll ever meet, and that's my life. So yes, I am quite gross.

OK. So you find yourself to be disgusting. That doesn't mean that other people feel the same way. And I can tell you as a consummate flirt that the fact that she most definitely IS flirting with you means that she doesn't find you disgusting.

Now of course you could think to yourself that I'm just being nice, that I don't know who you are. But I know that changing how you think, especially about yourself, is a REALLY hard thing to do. But it's really important, especially when you have such colossally low self-esteem. Because worst-case scenario, you are exactly as disgusting as you think you are, but you still have to live with yourself for the rest of your life, so why go around hating yourself? If you're disgusting, it's a done deal. You can either accept yourself or hate yourself, but being disgusting won't change. At least if you accept yourself, you have a chance at being happy.

As for being ugly, a virgin, missing that X-factor. Well, the fact that you're a guy and you're a virgin does make things harder. For some reason, it's more socially acceptable to be a female virgin than a male virgin, but so fucking what? You don't have to tell anyone, and if you meet someone who wants to have sex with you and you want her, all you have to do is just say that you'll get better with practice. That's it.

If you're ugly, so what? First of all, the fact that this woman is totally flirting with you means that she doesn't find you ugly. People pretty much never flirt with people they don't find attractive - it doesn't mean they're interested, but it does mean they find the other person attractive. Second of all, have you considered working out more, or if you don't, starting to? Regardless of what it does to your physical appearance/well-being, regularly going to the gym is so good for mental health.

As for the X-Factor. This woman is fliritng with you. Clearly there's something about you she likes, even if you don't see it. Even if no other woman has seen it.












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