Reality check.

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Post by Enail on Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:08 pm

<mod> Alright, everyone, let's cool it a bit.

Sam, you started this thread to ask if other people here thought it odd or out of line with what is typical in general discussions on masculinity, and people are giving you their opinions; it would probably be a lot less frustrating for all concerned if you wouldn't then argue that they're wrong to think so - they are, as you asked for, their opinions based on what they have seen of the subject.</mod>
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Post by SomeSamSeaborn on Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:59 pm

kleenestar wrote:Oh, sweet fucking Christ, did you really just say that crimes committed against black men are issues of racism and not gender? Black men are still men, and the way their blackness affects them interacts with their gender.

Please read what I say before you start screaming. I've stated twice that I think that the shooting was *gendered*, just that I'm not sure to which extent masculinity factored into it. If you can't see the difference, I explained it above.

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Post by SomeSamSeaborn on Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:01 pm

Enail wrote:it would probably be a lot less frustrating for all concerned if you wouldn't then argue that they're wrong to think so - they are, as you asked for, their opinions based on what they have seen of the subject.</mod>

I'm not sure what you're refering to?

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Post by eselle28 on Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:09 pm

<mod>Sam, in your initial post, you stated that the topics on the conferences agenda did not reflect the "masculinity discussion" you saw out there. You then said, "What's your take?" That is an invitation for opinions, so it's not surprising that there's been some disagreement with your initial thoughts.

I will repeat Enail's request that everyone cool it and take the heat level in the discussion down a few notches.</mod>
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Post by BiSian on Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:17 pm

In the same way that a feminist conference would not just focus on dating or gender relations, a conference on masculinity doesn't. Shrug. Seems par for the course to me.
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Post by Mel on Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:45 pm

The Wisp wrote:Well I guess I meant high quality, in-depth, and more expressive and confessional rather than advice-based.

Ah, sorry, you referenced DNL as an example and his blog is advice-based. Looking over the Ask Men site, it does seem more superficial, but I think the HuffPo articles are comparable in terms of depth. (I accidentally linked to the Canadian one--the US version has more: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/dating-advice-for-men/ ) But I guess that's not a dedicated column.

Honestly, though, I'm not sure you can find a whole lot of sites focusing on high quality, in-depth, expressive content on women's dating issues online without a certain amount of digging. Most of what we get is comparable to the PUA crap. I'll stop this tangent here, but I'll let you know if I stumble on anything that seems to fit! Smile
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Post by The Wisp on Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:32 pm

Mel wrote:
The Wisp wrote:Well I guess I meant high quality, in-depth, and more expressive and confessional rather than advice-based.

Ah, sorry, you referenced DNL as an example and his blog is advice-based. Looking over the Ask Men site, it does seem more superficial, but I think the HuffPo articles are comparable in terms of depth.  (I accidentally linked to the Canadian one--the US version has more: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/dating-advice-for-men/ ) But I guess that's not a dedicated column.

Honestly, though, I'm not sure you can find a whole lot of sites focusing on high quality, in-depth, expressive content on women's dating issues online without a certain amount of digging. Most of what we get is comparable to the PUA crap. I'll stop this tangent here, but I'll let you know if I stumble on anything that seems to fit!  Smile

Okay! I do think maybe there are occasionally high profile women's stuff that gets media attentions such that it makes such things appear more common than it actually is.
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Post by nearly_takuan on Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:16 pm

I dunno, I'm starting to think one of the reasons women's dating woes might sometimes seem more visible / talked about is because men's are already pretty much understood, or at least enough people think they do, having heard the concepts in some form or other already. (Because we're all a bunch of whiners when we're off the record. Razz )

Like, I suspect most men and women have already heard, in some form or other, about the whole "send fifty messages for one reply" issue that frustrates a lot of guys trying to use OLD. And it seems like nobody's overly inclined to prove that true or false; instead of women running "I tried OLD as a man" experiments, they just do "I used OLD as myself, sent out like twelve messages in a month, only got two responses, and that was exhausting and frustrating and I ran out of compatible people so I definitely have it at least as bad as men" anecdotes.

Whereas there have been several dudes with agendas, whether to try to prove women don't have it so bad or to try to prove they do, plus ladies with stories of their own, who run "I tried OLD as a woman / as several women" experiments and report that they were immediately harassed by countless assholes before they even answered any match questions.

Anyway. It's maybe not that we're less visible, exactly; we just maybe don't stand out as much? Sort of like how nobody counts how many times a boy gets called on in class, unless to contrast with the number of times a girl is called on in class.
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Post by Enail on Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:35 pm

I think also, dating is a subject that women are supposed to care a lot about, so it's a subject you get a lot of mainstream discussion about, much of which is problematic, which leads other people to talk about the ways it's problematic and find new ways to talk about it. Men aren't expected to focus so much on romance, so the problematic messages are more of an undercurrent and there aren't as many mainstream voices talking about it as a starting point for other kinds of dialogue.
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Post by SomeSamSeaborn on Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:49 pm

nearly_takuan wrote:And it seems like nobody's overly inclined to prove that true or false;

Some have tried - those that I'm aware of -

http://jonmillward.com/blog/attraction-dating/cupid-on-trial-a-4-month-online-dating-experiment/

And the post pulled by OkCupid after being acquired by match.com on the wayback machine:
http://web.archive.org/web/20101006104124/http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/why-you-should-never-pay-for-online-dating/

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Post by reboot on Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:37 am

Enail wrote:I think also, dating is a subject that women are supposed to care a lot about, so it's a subject you get a lot of mainstream discussion about, much of which is problematic, which leads other people to talk about the ways it's problematic and find new ways to talk about it. Men aren't expected to focus so much on romance, so the problematic messages are more of an undercurrent and there aren't as many mainstream voices talking about it as a starting point for other kinds of dialogue.

I think you are right and it is something DNL mentions on Prime quite frequently. It is all part of the toxic masculinity ideal that men should not ever ask for help or admit something is difficult.

In addition, what advice is available for men focuses primarily on seduction for casual sex rather than dating/relationships, because much of the dominant cultural narrative is that men have to be dragged kicking and screaming into a relationship. Women's advice focuses more on relationships because the same narrative presumes women are all about husband hunting and LTR. Both of these tropes are quite wrong, but they are pretty ingrained.
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Post by 8bitGreyscale on Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:44 pm

SomeSamSeaborn wrote:
kleenestar wrote:Oh, sweet fucking Christ, did you really just say that crimes committed against black men are issues of racism and not gender? Black men are still men, and the way their blackness affects them interacts with their gender.

Please read what I say before you start screaming. I've stated twice that I think that the shooting was *gendered*, just that I'm not sure to which extent masculinity factored into it. If you can't see the difference, I explained it above.

Screaming? Wow. That's an extreme overreaction to her post. It's clear she's frustrated and irritated with you and not softening it with soothing, conciliatory language. But that's the calmest "screaming" I've witnessed.

Your reaction is really telling and distasteful. Whoa there, little lady, no need to get all riled up there! Just calm down and you'll see that you clearly didn't understand what I said, since there's no way you could disagree with me otherwise. You just let your emotions take over again!
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Post by eselle28 on Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:58 pm

<mod>Hey, 8bitGreyscale, Sam is taking some time off from the board. If people want to comment generally on his topics, that's fine, but I'd ask that people not address posts specifically to him while he isn't able to respond - it's not really fair to him.

In the future, if you see posters responding to each other inappropriately, the best way to handle it is to use the report button so that the mods intervene rather than getting involved in the conflict.</mod>
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Post by 8bitGreyscale on Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:52 am

Whoops, sorry about that! Sad I didn't know he was, and I definitely don't want to bring something up when he's not here. Sorry, Sam.
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