Re: What is "Male Sexuality?"

[Caffeinated]

Hmm, that's part of it. Hard to really explain. I almost left it as just 'generosity', but that runs the risk of being interpreted as financial, which isn't what I mean. It's more... kind of the desire to make things nice for both of us? And also... kindness. And also... that look on a person's face when you first show up and they're really happy to see you. I don't know, some mix of all that.

This is interesting, because to me none of those things are part of sexuality, and if they were I still wouldn't associate them with male sexuality. Reminds me of the other thread about doing woman, I suppose. None of the things you're talking about are included in what we "are taught"(tm) about doing man.

I suppose I'm including this as part of sexuality because the entire reason I met up with these men for a sexual encounter. So I guess I'm lumping in the whole thing, from initial contact online to setting up logistics of meeting to actually seeing each other in person to the sex itself to the aftermath of the encounter.

You have a point that any of this doesn't have to be exclusive to male sexuality. Seems like there must be overlap between different flavors of sexuality.

As for what is included in what's "taught" about "doing man", well, I can't speak as much to that as I am not a man and wasn't taught any of it. I'm just relating my observations from the outside in my personal encounters with male sexuality.

[Dan_Brodribb]

Reading these responses, I wonder if our sexuality is more a story we write based on on the culture we're exposed to, what our body/brain responds to, and our experiences.

If that's the case, it feels like we have co-writers like culture, family, or partners.

So we might get messages from society telling us what is acceptable for us to want.

Or on a more positive note, my partners have shaped me in that often in giving them more of what they saw as the sexiest parts of me, I became 'more' of that thing, even if it wasn't something I saw in myself or believe I had.

I wonder if one thread common to inexperienced men feeling attacked, women feeling objectified, or alternative sexualities being pushed to the margins or deemed unacceptable is the feeling that your sexual story is being written FOR you and your input is neither required, nor wanted.

[Conreezy]

Hmm, that's part of it. Hard to really explain. I almost left it as just 'generosity', but that runs the risk of being interpreted as financial, which isn't what I mean. It's more... kind of the desire to make things nice for both of us? And also... kindness. And also... that look on a person's face when you first show up and they're really happy to see you. I don't know, some mix of all that.

This is interesting, because to me none of those things are part of sexuality, and if they were I still wouldn't associate them with male sexuality. Reminds me of the other thread about doing woman, I suppose. None of the things you're talking about are included in what we "are taught"(tm) about doing man.

I would say those things are very much a part of a mature sexuality of any gender. At least, that's the message I got growing up.

But I would agree that those things probably aren't associated with the "male" part of male sexuality because discussing qualities that are more present in masculine sexuality than other types almost always is a negative conversation.

Except for the part about "making things nice for both of us." That has always felt more like my "job" as a guy. That goes for anything romantic, but in sex especially I've felt that it's on me to nudge things in that direction, ensure the circumstances are correct and safe, and make sure my prowess is good enough to keep things exciting through the act. Even after being with partners who were bad in bed, I couldn't shake the feeling that it was my fault things went poorly and that I was going to be thought less of because of it.

Reminds me of a Jim Jefferies bit, now that I think about it.

[nearly_takuan]

Huh. Desire for mutual happiness above personal pleasure; kindness and special considerations; joy as response to being in another's company... that all just sounds like love to me, and utterly orthogonal to sexuality, male or otherwise.

[Guest]

I've thought about this for a bit.

Overall, male sexuality has always been sold to me as a negative. A kind foul, pervasive force that invades men's minds and makes them do harm to others around them. It's everywhere and the way it's often expressed is not so good.

Women give and men take, take, take. Men are aggressive to get what they want, and it's all about what you want and very little else. That's what was sold to me.

The problem is, if you're not interested in what they are selling, there isn't really a male sexuality as far as I see it? I mean, there's men who have positive sexual identities, but this isn't what is getting billed as male sexuality. And it's not what is talked about at the pub on a Friday night between mates over a pint.

So, I guess 'male sexuality', as I see it, is what is marketed to us. Some take that red pill and go with it, others take the blue pill and reject it, to use some terms I'm sure we're all pretty familiar with. But simply 'going with it' and 'rejecting it' don't fully described the consequences of the action.

Going with it doesn't mean you're going to turn out to be, worst case, a horrific rapist. Rejecting it doesn't mean you're going to end up a zen-like lover extraordinaire.

I can only speak for the rejection side, but I feel more lost than anything else.

[Conreezy]

Huh. Desire for mutual happiness above personal pleasure; kindness and special considerations; joy as response to being in another's company... that all just sounds like love to me, and utterly orthogonal to sexuality, male or otherwise.

Sure, those could be the underpinnings of expressing love.  They could also just be the tenets of a mutually beneficial sexual experience without any deeper emotion than respect, I think.

A kind foul, pervasive force that invades men's minds and makes them do harm to others around them.

It does seem to seep into every situation, doesn't it?  I was laughing at myself for checking out a woman at my gym, which is generally the one place I turn my head off to absolutely everything.  I got to wondering if the pervasiveness of sexual thoughts in men comes from the push to be the aggressor?  (Well, it probably comes from old fashioned biochemistry, but is it made worse by our position as initiator?)  Since it's not very likely we're going to be pursued, we develop a hyper-vigilant attitude towards our next potential sexual fix?

I'm afraid I'm not too sure of what you were getting at with your Matrix metaphor, MapWater.

[Guest]

A kind foul, pervasive force that invades men's minds and makes them do harm to others around them.

It does seem to seep into every situation, doesn't it?  I was laughing at myself for checking out a woman at my gym, which is generally the one place I turn my head off to absolutely everything.  I got to wondering if the pervasiveness of sexual thoughts in men comes from the push to be the aggressor?  (Well, it probably comes from old fashioned biochemistry, but is it made worse by our position as initiator?)  Since it's not very likely we're going to be pursued, we develop a hyper-vigilant attitude towards our next potential sexual fix?

I'd say it could part of it for sure. I think a strange part of male sexuality is that you aren't desired, you will not be pursued, so you must make yourself desired. Obviously, that's as gross and sad as it sounds. If you couple hyper-vigilance with a lot of self-doubt and you'll notice a small touch or being paid attention to and of course it means nothing: "Women neither pursue, nor would they pursue me! Hah, you have to be a fool to think otherwise!"

I'm still kind of in the position.

Shaking dodgy messages isn't easy.

I'm afraid I'm not too sure of what you were getting at with your Matrix metaphor, MapWater.

Urgh, it sounded better in my head than what I actually wrote.

Basically, taking the red pill (conscious or not) is conforming to male sexuality as it's sold to us. Be aggressive, be a 'man', be the one in power etc. Taking the blue pill (again, conscious or not) is non-conformance with male sexuality as it's sold to us. Maybe you're not aggressive, maybe you're uncomfortable with physical touch which leaves sex with many partners quite difficult etc.

...Maybe forget this, I've confused myself.

[reboundstudent]

It does seem to seep into every situation, doesn't it?  I was laughing at myself for checking out a woman at my gym, which is generally the one place I turn my head off to absolutely everything.  I got to wondering if the pervasiveness of sexual thoughts in men comes from the push to be the aggressor?  (Well, it probably comes from old fashioned biochemistry, but is it made worse by our position as initiator?)  Since it's not very likely we're going to be pursued, we develop a hyper-vigilant attitude towards our next potential sexual fix?

I don't have much to say about male sexuality, but wanted to jump in on this part. I've always felt a big pressure to be the aggressor, despite being a woman. Since I have long been considered "unconventional" looking, the biggest advice I've gotten (aside from "lose weight/get prettier") is to be the pursuer. I can say with absolute confidence that should I ever be single, aggressively pursuing someone is the only way I'll ever get into a relationship.

But I still don't seem to have the pervasiveness of sexual thoughts that are reported. I mean it's a difficult thing to measure; I always assumed I had quite a lot of sexual thoughts until I wandered onto AdultFanFiction and saw how much erotica some of those female authors were pumping out. Still, being pursued/being the pursuer hasn't really seemed to change much of my brain chemistry (I envisioned myself being pursued as a teenager; if anything, my sexual thoughts get more of a lift when I envision the ego stroke that is being pursued.)

[The Wisp]

Okay, I have some things to say about this.

So, first, I want to note that everything I'm saying comes from the perspective of a white cis-het late-millennial who has always lived in a very liberal part of the country. I'm not sure how generalizable it is, though it seems at least a few guys on here have similar feelings and experiences. Mapwater said some things that I think are right, so I may reiterate some of them.

I would define men's sexuality as the thoughts, emotions, social messages, and self-perception of the sexual side of men.

I think there are two predominant narratives about men's sexuality in the culture. The first one goes something like this: men's sexuality is dangerous, exploitative, and is at default undesirable, ugly, gross, simple, and shallow. Therefore, men who have sex with women outside of committed relationships are exploiting women and taking, only taking. He's providing little of value. Therefore, if you are an ethical man you will dissociate from and control your sexuality, and save it for a committed relationship. Note, that a lot of liberal people absolutely buy into this narrative, they just use different (and at times, also misappropriated) language that is often borrowed from feminists and lefty sociologists.

The second is this: men's sexuality is only valuable if the man who has it has proven himself worthy. Again, like the first narrative, men's sexuality is at default undesirable, ugly, gross, simple, and shallow. This time, though, instead of controlling it you must earn it. You must be high status, or unusually socially skilled, or wealthy, of famous, or athletic, or accomplished. It turns sexuality into a competition, where you have to be one of the winners to be able to enjoy your sexuality without shame. Note that this also buys into the notion that all men's sexuality does is take. You must be worthy in some other way to be "deserving" of doing the "taking". This is toxic, and I was repelled by it at an early age, as I'm sure lots of lonely sensitive nerdboys are. Some buy into it as a validation of their low self-esteem.

What's missing? Any talk of how men's sexuality can be inherently pleasurable, validating, beautiful, and hot even when you're single. There's not talk of how men's sexuality is important and good. There's no talk of how men's sexuality can make women happy and be giving in a mutual way. There are no role models or narratives about (straight) men being the object of attraction (save celebrities), or the more passive partner, or the one who receives. There is little to no guidance on how to ask for what you want sexually, to have sexual boundaries, to advocate for your pleasure, that aren't toxic and pressuring, especially if you aren't a monogamous married middle-aged man.

There's little to no affirmation of the value of male sexuality that doesn't involve toxic aspects of one of the first two narratives I sketched out above.

There's also a growing movement of people pseudoscientifically advancing ideas about porn and masturbation addiction among young men (ad yet they don't even consider that young women, not one, could have that problem  ) and many young  men are buying it. So apparently men's sexuality hurts men, too

I think this is why some men feel triggered when they read feminist discussions of rape culture, or men pressuring women, or men being selfish in bed (which are totally legitimate and shouldn't stop). It's like, there are already all these negative messages, and now my sexuality (it feels like) is guilty by association of all these bad things, too.

I may have more thoughts on this, but I'm tired, that's all I've got.

P.S.: Caffeinated, those stories you told are lovely and make me feel happy and happy for you! Thanks for sharing! I wish I heard more anecdotes like that growing up.

[reboot]

This is weird. I cannot think of anything that is specifically male or female sexuality. All I can come up with is healthy/unhealthy because I see the same good and bad behaviors in both men and women. I cannot picture "female" or "male" sexuality.

I wonder if it is because I have spent so much time in Muslim culture where the sexual aggressors are women (e.g. rampant and uncontrolled, seducers, animalistic, promiscuous) that it is all muddled up for me

[Guest]

There's little to no affirmation of the value of male sexuality that doesn't involve toxic aspects of one of the first two narratives I sketched out above.

I've said on here before I was a latebloomer, but I did know I didn't like how I was supposed be a man thanks to what 'being a man' meant. A lot of 'being a man' involves doinking many partners. Something I had little interest in. So, when I finally became interested enough to seek out places like this and others, well, running into some dialogue on male sexuality was a bit like...



It's weird, because I knew I was on the fringe of what is defined as 'male sexuality' and still am, but at the same time it's very frustrating and a little scary to see how much flak it gets because when it's the only real mainstream message out there for how I should be, it's hard to not associate yourself with what is being labelled terrible.

There is little to no guidance on how to ask for what you want sexually, to have sexual boundaries, to advocate for your pleasure, that aren't toxic and pressuring, especially if you aren't a monogamous married middle-aged man.

This is the part that really gets me. The discussion of too many don'ts and too few dos has been had here before, but it's critical that people learn how to enforce sexual boundaries. This is an issues that plagues both men and women, but I certainly don't see much at all for men when it comes to teaching them 'if you don't want to do it, you have every right not to do it' whatever 'it' is.

For the longest time, as discomforted by touch as I am, I thought that if a woman went all in on me or something I couldn't just say no. Sexual boundaries were for women, because they needed them. I'm a man, I'm supposed to deal with.

Things suck for everyone, really.

[Conreezy]

This is weird. I cannot think of anything that is specifically male or female sexuality. All I can come up with is healthy/unhealthy because I see the same good and bad behaviors in both men and women. I cannot picture "female" or "male" sexuality.

I wonder if it is because I have spent so much time in Muslim culture where the sexual aggressors are women (e.g. rampant and uncontrolled, seducers, animalistic, promiscuous) that it is all muddled up for me

Yeah, there probably isn't anything biologically determined. Not so long ago, I think European expectations were the same way. But I think the male/female categories refer to the general expectations of gender performance of sex.

So apparently men's sexuality hurts men too

It certainly can be harmful to us. I think we get shortchanged by the fixation on the physical sensation and increased social status. I've always admired how women are generally better about remembering the consequences of sex; too many guys have trouble with thinking more than six inches into the future. How many men get themselves into terrible situations just to get laid? How many men think that sex is the only thing that makes a relationship worth time and effort? Loads, as I've noticed.

Women can do all of those things, too, but I think they are much more free to admit that they have emotional needs in conjunction with their sexual needs. Men force themselves to have such low standards regarding those things.

[Guest]

It does seem to seep into every situation, doesn't it?  I was laughing at myself for checking out a woman at my gym, which is generally the one place I turn my head off to absolutely everything.  I got to wondering if the pervasiveness of sexual thoughts in men comes from the push to be the aggressor?  (Well, it probably comes from old fashioned biochemistry, but is it made worse by our position as initiator?)  Since it's not very likely we're going to be pursued, we develop a hyper-vigilant attitude towards our next potential sexual fix?

I don't think so, no. I mean, that kind of always-on attraction radar might be more prevalent in dudes than in ladies - I have no way of determining that, and haven't seen anything on the subject. But I suspect it's more to do one's libido or evaluation of other people in general. I pretty much always instinctively assess people for how attractive they are, no matter what I'm doing (though the level to which I am actually attracted to someone can vary depending on how focused/stressed I am about other things). Granted, I'm usually the aggressor, but I certainly wasn't raised with that as the model in society. I've seen other women laugh about that same sort of reflexive checking-out of anything that moves.

[Enail]

I would define men's sexuality as the thoughts, emotions, social messages, and self-perception of the sexual side of men.

This makes a lot of sense. I think this definition is really helpful for a lot of these discussions we have. I know I often get a bit confused what we're really talking about when we talk about 'men's sexuality' or 'women's sexuality.' You should consider pinning this at the start of every discussion on the topic!

[Robjection]

I've seen other women laugh about that same sort of reflexive checking-out of anything that moves.

Depending on how literally you mean by "reflexive checking-out of anything that moves", a professor at my old university might be able to explain it. It's why he said that, if anyone has a question, they should raise their hand and wave like mad.

[InkAndComb]

I'm here mostly to listen, but I thought I'd throw in; something I always admired/noticed about male sexuality, was an inherent appreciation for the visceral.  This is speaking mostly from casual encounters, but! I felt I could express myself nonverbally and physically through intimacy, in a more raw way, and this type of language-through-interaction was easily understood and celebrated.  I also found the enthusiasm therapeutic; caffeinated has it down when they say "that look when they answer the door".  Something about that expression and frankness of interest and appreciation, it really broke down a lot of fears I had about my body and desirability.  I feel like although I hear a lot of men struggle with this too, the men that I've met that seem most confident and comfortable displaying their sexuality embody this especially.
 It's something I seek to have more in my life, a "masculine" expression of physical intimacy beyond that which gets bastardized and exaggerated by the media into what we see as the overly aggressive alpha-personality.  It frustrates me that we have this dichotomy of love-styles, but I understand how it came about (sort of).

[Conreezy]

Something about that expression and frankness of interest and appreciation, it really broke down a lot of fears I had about my body and desirability. I feel like although I hear a lot of men struggle with this too, the men that I've met that seem most confident and comfortable displaying their sexuality embody this especially.

This is good to hear/read. Whereas a lot of guys think their gaze is the most important thing in the world to a woman's self-esteem, it seems a lot of guys around these parts approach it from the other side of the spectrum. I think it's comforting to know that having physical, sexual desire, and expressing it, can be affirming to a partner and doesn't have to be destructive or indicative of something wrong in a man.

I don't think so, no. I mean, that kind of always-on attraction radar might be more prevalent in dudes than in ladies - I have no way of determining that, and haven't seen anything on the subject.

Yeah, I'm just running with stereotypes and lay-person observations of my single male friends. Many of them take the numbers approach to dating and sex, so they're always on the lookout for someone to hit on. No maliciously, mind you; it seems like it's always on the forefront of their mind. It was certainly on mine when I was single.

But I suspect it's more to do one's libido or evaluation of other people in general. I pretty much always instinctively assess people for how attractive they are, no matter what I'm doing (though the level to which I am actually attracted to someone can vary depending on how focused/stressed I am about other things).

While there are differences in libido between men and between the same man during different stages of life or the day, we have to be pretty careful about admitting it. That's why I brought up the question about how many men seem to have wandering eye because it's what's expected of us, and wrong as it may be, not having it could be seen as worse.

I've seen other women laugh about that same sort of reflexive checking-out of anything that moves.

That's funny! Makes me feel like less of a deviant. :p

Question for you: quite a few times, I've been in public areas with strange men, like bus stops or elevators or whatnot, and noticed an attractive woman pass by. After she leaves, all the guys look at each other and wordlessly nod in agreement. Does that sort of thing happen with women?

[nearly_takuan]

To most of the recent above: where you seem to see opportunity, I see obligation. Grep-replace "can", "may", "allowed to", with "must". Realize that "inherent" and "instinctive" are expectations, not truths. Frankness, straightforwardness, initiative, and risk-taking have ever been the male Role. Not so freeing when it's not your "nature".

[celette482]

Fun story about checking out things that move. I was out walking and there was this freakin' Adonis running shirtless. I mean ADONIS. He must have been a college athlete (I was very close to a university) because no one looks like that otherwise. He was running toward me. I was appreciative of the view. Behind him was a woman, about mid-50s, also walking toward me. She was CLEARLY checking out his butt. She met my eyes as we passed each other and gave me a "hell yeah" smile. I started cracking up.

[PintsizeBro]

Male sexuality is (metaphorically) the direction my boner points.

When anyone claims that talking about harassment or consent is demonizing male sexuality, I'm insulted. I've met women who seem to think that being a man is essentially a constant struggle against the urge to rape, and when I meet those women I tell them that they have no idea what it's like to be a man. It is not that hard to say, "Not now, boner."

This is not because my sex drive is low. I'll fuck you as soon as look at you. But if I'm not your cup of tea, I don't consider that a referendum on my value as a human being.

[LadyLuck]

But if I'm not your cup of tea, I don't consider that a referendum on my value as a human being.

And this would be the ideal for everyone, I think everyone agrees. But there's a huge chunk of society that believes otherwise, and they can be hard to ignore too. This probably goes double for the anxious/depressed/insecure guys - the amplified jerkbrain from these kinds of conditions makes you more susceptible to negative messages. Unfortunately these conditions can also cause dating problems too. So basically, the guys who have a hardest time getting sex, are also those most likely to believe negative messages about their sexuality, and most likely to see negativity in things not intended as such.

[PintsizeBro]

It took a lot of un-learning messages that I'd absorbed, some consciously and some not, to get to where I am now. It's still a learning process, I certainly don't think of myself as especially well-adjusted (despite growing evidence to the contrary, apparently).

I recommend men, especially young men, be critical of the media they consume and avoid advertisements whenever possible. This is something feminists and social justice types recommend to girls/women and minorities all the time, guess what, it's great advice for men too! This isn't to say that guys should stop liking what they like, just be aware. It's easy to get lured into a sense of complacency by consuming tons of media that on some level caters to boners. I think much of the frustration at the inability to find an interested partner for sex comes from the expectation that it should be easy. Yeah, it's going to be easy for some guys, but not all.

If it's not easy for you (the proverbial "you"), it's okay to be sad and frustrated. But ultimately you are in charge, your boner is just a feeling. It's like being hungry. Sometimes you're hungry and you pass an amazing restaurant that you can't afford and you go home and make a sandwich. No, it's not ideal, but it doesn't mean you failed at eating.

[Guest]

Question for you: quite a few times, I've been in public areas with strange men, like bus stops or elevators or whatnot, and noticed an attractive woman pass by.  After she leaves, all the guys look at each other and wordlessly nod in agreement.  Does that sort of thing happen with women?

Hmm! Not with strangers, no, I haven't had that happen to me personally. I've definitely had it happen with friends (especially regarding waitstaff or otherwise-working people, where it would be inappropriate to hit on them but we want to share our appreciation - or sometimes just about mutual acquaintances).

[Guest]

Question for you: quite a few times, I've been in public areas with strange men, like bus stops or elevators or whatnot, and noticed an attractive woman pass by.  After she leaves, all the guys look at each other and wordlessly nod in agreement.  Does that sort of thing happen with women?

Hmm! Not with strangers, no, I haven't had that happen to me personally. I've definitely had it happen with friends (especially regarding waitstaff or otherwise-working people, where it would be inappropriate to hit on them but we want to share our appreciation - or sometimes just about mutual acquaintances).

Slight derail, but I guess I can keep it on topic...

Is this actually really common for other people? I find it awkward as hell when any of the guys I'm with notices a woman and makes it a point to bring up the fact he thinks she's attractive in some way. I mean, we have proof positive in this thread that women do it too, but I only ever see guys do it and it's fucking annoying. Like, good for you mate, do you want us to halt the conversation while you go have a wank in the corner?

I mean, I see women I find attractive all the time, but I don't find it appropriate to really bring that up. It's probably just me being that weird mix of prude / not-prude but it's a behaviour that always made me supremely uncomfortable to have to put up with.

It's another small layer on top of the already frustrating messages telling me "you don't express your sexuality correctly, you non-man you!" since it seems so hard-coded into how men are supposed to react to the women around them when in a group. I'm supposed to project the fact I think the woman in corner has great tits or some stupid bullshit like that to my dudebro pals and we can high-five and chug brewskis.

[Werel]

Is this actually really common for other people? I find it awkward as hell when any of the guys I'm with notices a woman and makes it a point to bring up the fact he thinks she's attractive in some way. I mean, we have proof positive in this thread that women do it too, but I only ever see guys do it and it's fucking annoying. Like, good for you mate, do you want us to halt the conversation while you go have a wank in the corner?

I mean, I see women I find attractive all the time, but I don't find it appropriate to really bring that up. It's probably just me being that weird mix of prude / not-prude but it's a behaviour that always made me supremely uncomfortable to have to put up with.

It's another small layer on top of the already frustrating messages telling me "you don't express your sexuality correctly, you non-man you!" since it seems so hard-coded into how men are supposed to react to the women around them when in a group. I'm supposed to project the fact I think the woman in corner has great tits or some stupid bullshit like that to my dudebro pals and we can high-five and chug brewskis.

Huh. Not having female friends who understand/share/are aware of my taste, such that I can't point out an attractive dude and giggle with them, is actually one of the saddest absences in my social life. I actively mourn it once in a while. (My BFF from high school wasn't into the same types of guys as me, but we knew each other's tastes, and we had a goofy little signal where we'd hold up an index finger when a hot [to one of us] dude passed by: "I'm his number 1 fan!" Ahhh teen girl friendship codes ) Being able to enthuse with a friend over an attractive person is a great pleasure for me, and it seems like a lot of men feel that need to co-enthuse too? I'm having a hard time verbalizing what exactly I find satisfying about it; maybe it's the same sort of drive for camaraderie that makes people want to cheer for sports teams together. I dunno. But I think the drive to share your joy at the existence of hotness crosses gender lines, and I really empathize with why guys do it.