Genshiken

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Re: Genshiken

Post by Werel on Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:22 pm

Finally started watching the anime. Kinda nice to see all these characters from the beginning again. Random anime thoughts:

-"Norm" being translated as "commoner" in the show subs had me lolin
-Being able to hear intonation and timing of these lines makes them a lot funnier. Doing more out-loud chuckling at the anime.
-Characters having voices sure does make them feel a lot more "real." Kugapii in particular seems like a 50% more fleshed-out character when you can actually hear him. Reaaally looking forward to Kuchiki territory; always suspected I wasn't fully getting his jokes cause I couldn't picture "cute-fixation otaku" voice
-...Did Ohno have those moles in the manga? Side-eye
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Re: Genshiken

Post by Enail on Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:35 pm

I've only watched one episode (maybe two, but I can't remember one, so maybe not), but you definitely should be looking forward to Kuchiki. Shiny/thrilled Did Madarame's voice surprise you too? Once I got used to it, it worked, but it wasn't what I expected.
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Re: Genshiken

Post by Werel on Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:40 pm

Yeah, Madarame's voice was a little surprising-- I'd been imagining more wry monotone nerd than expressive-dramatic nerd, but it does work once you get used to it. Saki sounds more forceful than I'd expected, too-- I'd been imagining her amazing burns in like a Norm Girl voice instead of yelling. She seems a little more relatable and less Too Cool for School this way, though.
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Re: Genshiken

Post by bomaye on Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:49 pm

They change the voice cast during Nidaime, Madarame goes from what you hear there to manly as fuck
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Re: Genshiken

Post by Enail on Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:00 pm

Oh, that's weird. I got used to his original voice. Sad
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Re: Genshiken

Post by litterature on Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:23 pm

Oh, I actually watched the anime before reading the manga, so I've always heard his nerdy, cat-like voice inside my head as I read his lines. I think it's the ideal voice for embarrassing moments with Saki, haha! I don't remember his Nidaime voice at all, though...

As for Saki, I guess she's supposed to have a bit of gyaru roughness but not as much as Sasa imouto. Although I'm rewatching an episode right now and I'm surprised at how smooth she sounds... she sounds more like a regular trendy girl.

Btw,

Spoiler:
I think one of the best things about Genshiken is how Kio Shimoku likes characters that are difficult to write, such as Hato or Ogi, so I'm glad to see how Angela is becoming less of a walking punchline! Now I want more Sue :>

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Re: Genshiken

Post by Werel on Thu Aug 27, 2015 3:29 pm

So I actually went to Akihabara a few days ago. Shiny/thrilled Pretty sure I saw every member of the Genshiken walking around there. Highlights include a singing, dancing idol robot with backup dancers in bikinis and lab coats, and two dudes cosplaying in militia gear that said "NEET" Laughing

Found a blog that has some really good Genshiken commentary/analysis/thoughts. This post, "On Heroes and Hero-Worship," so perfectly nailed a lot of stuff underlying a lot of character dynamics that I wanted to holler "yes" and "of course" and "preach!" throughout. cheers
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Re: Genshiken

Post by Enail on Thu Aug 27, 2015 4:17 pm

Ohh, thanks for linking that, it was very interesting. And you can't go wrong bringing Utena into pretty much anything, IMO!

I thought the analysis of Sue was a bit off, though. I don't think there's really been much suggestion she has any particular feelings for Hato.  I think she's essentially using the group crush on Madarame to practice romantic feelings and interaction in a way that's both socially safe (all the cool kids are crushing on him!) and romantically safe (she's not really a contender, and doesn't need to even try to be in order to participate in the fun), as a more advanced version of the "Ogiue is mah waifu!" game. It reads to me like she's the kind of awkward girl who hasn't figured out conversational flow yet and would rather conceal that by fitting neatly into a role as a weird but cute, catchphrase-spouting mascot foreigner than by trying to pass unnoticed.

OTOH, I thought connecting Hato's inability to draw as boy-Hato to his desire to fit in over living up to his goals was pretty smart. But the author also landed up actually making a pretty strong case for Yajima as Nidaime's proto-hero, with her character arc being largely about her stubbornly, slowly coming to stand out of the pack and fight for what she wants in a variety of ways; standing up for Hato's privacy even back when she disapproved of the crossdressing, drawing and sharing her work in spite of being a shitty artist surrounded by talent, and I'd say the story so far seems angled for her to eventually do the same with her feelings about Hato. Hato strikes me as needing to sort things out with Madarame one way or another before we can expect to see him really starting to figure out how to be true to himself in other ways. He's had to learn how to fit in before he can learn how to stand out.
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Re: Genshiken

Post by bomaye on Thu Aug 27, 2015 4:53 pm

Yajima and Hato are kind of a new-wave Madarame/Saki if you think about it.

They represent the opposite of each other in nearly every way, but with more upside to learn from each other than Mada/Saki ever did
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Re: Genshiken

Post by Enail on Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:21 pm

Naw, I'd say it's a triangle, with Keiko as the third corner, any two of them are opposites in different ways.
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Re: Genshiken

Post by bomaye on Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:23 pm

So she's the Kousaka?
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Re: Genshiken

Post by Enail on Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:47 pm

I suppose you could say that, but Kousaka was almost cipher and rarely interacted with Madarame. It was left unstated more than not. Whereas Keiko, Yajima and Hato are much more actively foils for each other in different ways (and I think they've each consciously made the comparisons themselves, on screen).
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Re: Genshiken

Post by Werel on Fri Aug 28, 2015 6:35 am

Enail, your read on the Sue situation kind of blew my mind. Laughing

Because... for some reason, I'd never really thought of Sue as an awkward nerd just like everyone else. I'd always just bought her as the things she's parodying (Maybe because she's really the only character in the club who doesn't feel like an experientially familiar personality? I never knew a Sue); I took her at face value as a bunch of inscrutable motivations and gag lines, with probably some hidden trump card besides her physical type. Thanks for making her click as a weird teenager for the first time. Because of course she is! This is Genshiken! Grin
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Re: Genshiken

Post by Enail on Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:20 pm

Yay, I'm glad that made sense to someone else! I don't much identify directly with any of the Genshiken characters, but I can imagine a very distant alternate universe where I would have gone in a bit of a Sue direction for a while, and I've seen a few Sues before.
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Re: Genshiken

Post by litterature on Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:01 pm

115 is up!

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Re: Genshiken

Post by Enail on Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:27 pm

Spoiler:
Holy shit, Keiko! That was mean, not just her usual saying harsh things and playing at being the mean one.
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Re: Genshiken

Post by Werel on Sat Sep 19, 2015 6:23 pm

Spoiler:
"The little blonde brat. She's got some kinda communication disorder, doesn't she?" Laughing

Keiko moving into straight up emotional abuse territory, followed by true Fuck Your Shit Up cruelty? Do not spurn characters who are not used to being spurned. silent

The big question: WILL MADARAME FINALLY GROW A SPINE TO DEFEND HIS FRIENDS??
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Re: Genshiken

Post by bomaye on Sun Sep 20, 2015 3:04 am

Spoiler:

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH WTF

So I kind of see two things with Keiko if Madarame said "yes" to her. Either, there's a bit of a "I won/got something of Kasukabe's finally" and then eventually they break up like the rest of her relationships apparently do because he can't handle her, orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Madarame does something that puts her in her place and not being used to this, she suddenly goes full tsundere and makes him lunch even though it was just extra stuff that was lying around d-d-dummy
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Re: Genshiken

Post by Enail on Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:16 am

Spoiler:
After that bit, I'd be really sorry to see Madarame date her, even briefly. Tsundere is not a real thing, or at least not a real thing that decent human beings can do to their partners, and I think this series is usually way better than that in terms of getting at the real people and genuine interactions rather than the tropey types they try to understand things by. I suppose he could do the second one and then we get a storyline about them figuring out how that kind of interaction really plays out outside of anime tropes, and either they break up or Keiko apologizes for being a giant asshole and cuts it out.

But that whole bit was screaming red flags of RUN AWAY, and I'd be deeply disappointed if the series plays it off.
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Re: Genshiken

Post by bomaye on Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:38 am

Spoiler:

She's a cabaret girl, that should've been a red flag at the start Laughing

What is real is a certain kind of girl being very shit-testy or being very up-front and obnoxious about being a hard-to-handle person, and Keiko seems like she fits that kind of mold. That's kind of what I'm getting at, I think she's just trying to out-duel Kasukabe and perhaps Hato right now primarily, but if Madarame suddenly showed some spine with her, then I think she'd go from just wanting to win out of competitiveness to something a little more out of character for her, which is liking someone for something other than face-value and not being sure how to deal with it... which leads to having spare lunches around d-d-dummy

As it stands, and as they pointed out, there's more of a story going forward right now if Madarame chooses Keiko right now silent
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Re: Genshiken

Post by Enail on Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:56 am

Spoiler:
But that wasn't just out-dueling and being obnoxious and hard to handle, it was downright cruel! Up until now, I did think 'gradually figuring out how to deal with genuinely liking someone' would be a good plotline if they got together. But this last chapter crosses the line from being really harsh and sometimes going too far to being the kind of person who will  try to grind people down into dirt to make herself feel better and get what she wants - including the person who's "what" she wants.

I don't think it's something that can be shrugged off as just trying to push people into action or having a temper or competitiveness, and I'm not sure I'd buy it anymore if the storyline just treated it as tsundere-ness that only needs Madarame to assert himself to get her to start being decent. Werel's not wrong that "no one else would put up with you" is emotional abuse territory, and that doesn't just get fixed by the other person growing a spine.

It's true that there's more of a story if he picks her, but I'm not sure it's a story I want to see anymore. Sad Now I'm just rooting for him to finally tell her off for being a jerk and not choose her, and then she has to face up to if she wants to be part of the Genshiken world without acting like it's just the competition and she's really too good for it, and try and repair/form her friendships with the other characters without relying on the harem to give her an easy role to fall into.
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Re: Genshiken

Post by bomaye on Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:41 pm

Spoiler:

I'm not sure I took it as cruelly as you guys did because that's not how Genshiken tends to handle things Uh-oh

I think the crux was "why won't you say Yes?" Nothing else anyone has done has worked in pushing him to make a choice, so she came at him with stone cold logic ("No one else would put up with your faults" is a truth if you're a guy like Madarame, it's more of a selling point "I've okay'ed the things you think will hold you back" than it is emotional abuse, because they're not even in a relationship anyways), and he still wouldn't say Yes. There's pretty much no way to make Madarame choose.

So instead she's putting the wheels in motion to make Hato choose Uh-oh
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Re: Genshiken

Post by litterature on Sun Sep 20, 2015 2:35 pm

Spoiler:
I think Keiko is being a bit DQN here, almost like what Gian from Doraemon would be like if he was dating! I mean, I don't even think she gets anything out of outing Yajima like that, other than throwing Hato off, which makes me think that, as a friend or otherwise, at least Hato loves Mada and cares about him, whereas Keiko doesn't seem to give two shits about how other people feel.

Personally I'm a fan of the Sue route, but I guess it's not a possibility since she doesn't seem to really know what she wants and she probably would have to do a lot of work on her own before being able to go out with someone... But I'd like to see her character develop!

I wonder what Mada himself thinks of his harem situation. He seems to be taking some chances (in a half-arsed way) and sorta trying things out, but other than that I've got no idea what he's feeling!

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Re: Genshiken

Post by Enail on Sun Sep 20, 2015 4:27 pm

Spoiler:
I'm surprised there's anyone voting for the Sue route! They seem to have so little interaction or (I thought) chemistry that I wouldn't have figured it! I'd also like to see her character develop more, though.

I don't think Madarame really knows what he thinks about it. The times when he's given some hints of opinions, mostly with Hato, have been pretty interesting but have revealed more confusion than anything. And I agree Hato is the only one who treats him as an actual person he cares about and who gets his own say.

Prior to this, I would have said Keiko acted like she didn't care about how other people feel, but actually liked to push people hard, but not too hard, that she was nicer than she made out to be. I do still think she's not indifferent to other peoples' feelings, but is more prone to acting out with her emotions and not very conscious of how and why she's pushing people or how far.

@bomaye, I thought that fell on the borderline of how I thought Genshiken didn't handle things! Uh-oh I think she probably intended it as a selling point/fact, but it was emotionally-driven enough that it came across much more like trying to make him more insecure to regain power. And especially since no one but Keiko has been talking about things getting serious enough that any faults other than his unwillingness to choose would really matter to them. If he picked Angela, frex, there's no reason to think they mightn't just want a one-night-stand or short-term thing. That said, all the other relationships in Genshiken have been treated as forever things (which is not the norm with university students), so maybe that's just going with the default settings of that universe.

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Re: Genshiken

Post by bomaye on Sun Sep 20, 2015 4:53 pm

Spoiler:

There's no storyline if they weren't expecting it to be a longer-term thing, dammit :p. And I think the fact he didn't jump on Angela in their first meeting way back when was probably an indicator that everyone's playing more long-term

Also like, I don't think there's a real way to prey on his insecurities because he's already living by them anyways. They're not in a relationship, there's nothing tying him to her, nor does he even believe this harem situation is all that real to begin with. I never felt like she was running him down as much as just presenting the facts as he would understand them, which he did understand them. It's more driving Keiko crazy that she doesn't understand him because he's going against her life experiences. "Why won't you say Yes?"

On what Madarame is thinking, I think he doesn't believe the situation is real, and rather than make a choice that would upset the other three, he just wants to ride it out until they all come to their senses. Also I think the positive attention is throwing him off, because he doesn't know what to do with it in the meantime.
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