Genshiken

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Re: Genshiken

Post by Enail on Sun Sep 20, 2015 5:17 pm

bomaye wrote:
Spoiler:

There's no storyline if they weren't expecting it to be a longer-term thing, dammit :p. And I think the fact he didn't jump on Angela in their first meeting way back when was probably an indicator that everyone's playing more long-term

Spoiler:

I figured that was just for the same reason he doesn't pick someone, he doesn't believe it's real/doesn't know what he wants/is too hesitant to actually make a move.

bomaye wrote:
Spoiler:
Also like, I don't think there's a real way to prey on his insecurities because he's already living by them anyways. They're not in a relationship, there's nothing tying him to her, nor does he even believe this harem situation is all that real to begin with. I never felt like she was running him down as much as just presenting the facts as he would understand them, which he did understand them. It's more driving Keiko crazy that she doesn't understand him because he's going against her life experiences. "Why won't you say Yes?"

Spoiler:

He did understand it that way himself - but I don't think that just because someone already thinks something negative about themselves that means other people can't use it to undermine them or elevate themselves by pushing them down. I don't think that was fully her intention, but that  competitive streak seems to mean she sometimes needs to make other people lose to feel like she's winning, and the more upset she gets, the more she tries to kick other people down.

It is pretty funny just how much it's blowing Keiko's mind. In a way, she's seeing the whole situation as much through a lens of character types and storylines as the Genshiken crowd does, just different stories. She can't imagine a him-type person not saying yes to a her-type person, so it doesn't make sense and becomes a rejection and an insult. Whereas to the rest of them, it's a format of story that they recognize and they see that equilibrium of not saying yes as a fundamental part of it, so it's not so personal. No one is really seeing it as just being individual people making/not making individual choices based on their specific feelings about another individual person
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Re: Genshiken

Post by bomaye on Sun Sep 20, 2015 5:21 pm

Spoiler:

@Keiko's story thing: ... Holy shit, she's as much of a social screw-up as they are :rotfl:
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Re: Genshiken

Post by Enail on Sun Sep 20, 2015 5:28 pm

Spoiler:
Wow, I said it off-handedly, but...yeah! I mean, why is she hanging out with the Genshiken crowd so much? She never mentions other friends really, and being interested in Madarame - while hardly even knowing him at the time she started showing up - is a pretty weak justification for spending so much time with them, unless she's getting something from belonging to his world or the idea of him more than the person. I don't know if it's getting to feel like the cool kid, or just feeling like it's safer to be herself around a bunch of awkward nerds, but she's getting something from their world.
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Re: Genshiken

Post by bomaye on Mon Nov 02, 2015 7:35 pm

Chapter 116 is out cheers
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Re: Genshiken

Post by bomaye on Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:15 pm

Spoiler:

WAUGHHHHHHHHH

- Yoshitake calming down Hato and then "HE KNOWS" to Yajima Shiny/thrilled
- Keiko admitting defeat silent
- Sue shinying up fffffffffffff
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Re: Genshiken

Post by Enail on Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:32 pm

Spoiler:
I'm surprised Keiko is going along with the others so easily, I thought she'd at least make a big show of not wanting anything to do with them anymore. That could still come in the longterm, though, and I think it has to unless she leaves the cast altogether or Madarame swerves and goes for her after all, because she really has no excuse for hanging around with them otherwise. At this point, I really want to know what she does get out of the Genshiken.

I still cannot see Sue and Madarame as a couple (and plus, it'd kind of short-circuit the Hato arc which is by far the more fully developed plotline). Though since it would be like 50% charades, it would be pretty entertaining, at least.  Laughing  And to be fair, in a way, I can see them having a more viable relationship than most of the others, since they'd both have to be awkwardly feeling things out in their own ways, they'd sort of be on more equal footing than other pairings. But they don't have the chemistry, to me.

I hope the next big story arc focuses on Yoshitake more, I love her stage manager/mastermind thing! Shiny/thrilled

And Ohno trying to sell Ogiue on their story of yuri rofl
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Re: Genshiken

Post by bomaye on Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:39 pm

Spoiler:

Forgot to mention.

Sue going full tsundere grabbing his hand was hilarious
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Re: Genshiken

Post by Werel on Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:08 pm

Spoiler:

-"Susie"? Since when? Side-eye
-If they're making Big Proclamations that it's down to Sue or Hato, I get why Keiko's taking herself out of the running, but how is Angela suddenly a non-option? When did that happen? What was the point of that face-grab but to solidify her position as a real contender?
-Yoshitake, you better be enjoying every second of this, you puppetmaster control freak Laughing
-Poor Hato seems severely distraught by this news. I don't know if I feel worse for him or Yajima here (jk I feel worse for poor Yajima, Queen of Self-Effacing Accommodation of Others' Needs. "Your feelings come before hers.") I do wonder if Hato's more upset about being seen as a romantic prospect by a woman at all, or the fact that it's someone in the Genshiken, or that it's Yajima specifically.
-Why is everyone suddenly so sure that Sue & Mada are a great fit? It seems a little out of the blue, given how little real interaction those two have had so far. Did Shimoku just get tired of writing the harem and decide to slam on the brakes? Is he setting us up for a surprise? Should we believe him that Angela's out?? confused

Enail wrote:And Ohno trying to sell Ogiue on their story of yuri rofl
I totally Shocked'ed at that-- Ohno's never been a provocateur of that brand, has she? Are the club vibes just getting too steamy for her not to succumb? She seems like more the "hee hee let's good-naturedly touch boobs in a nonsexual way" type, not the "I'mma be ironically sexual AT you" type.

bomaye wrote:Sue going full tsundere grabbing his hand was hilarious
"It's j-just to get Kuchiki's poison off" Laughing
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Re: Genshiken

Post by bomaye on Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:12 am

Werel wrote:
Spoiler:

-If they're making Big Proclamations that it's down to Sue or Hato, I get why Keiko's taking herself out of the running, but how is Angela suddenly a non-option? When did that happen? What was the point of that face-grab but to solidify her position as a real contender?

Spoiler:
It's probs because they're both super-awkward and he's a lolicon

Spoiler:

-Why is everyone suddenly so sure that Sue & Mada are a great fit? It seems a little out of the blue, given how little real interaction those two have had so far. Did Shimoku just get tired of writing the harem and decide to slam on the brakes? Is he setting us up for a surprise? Should we believe him that Angela's out?? confused

Spoiler:

I think it was insinuated during Keiko's chapter that the face-touch was kind of a "this was really fun but I realize this isn't going to work" kind of thing.
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Re: Genshiken

Post by Werel on Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:15 pm

bomaye wrote:
Spoiler:
It's probs because they're both super-awkward and he's a lolicon
Spoiler:
Yeahhhh. But isn't this series about, like, personal growth beyond limiting otaku fantasies? Wouldn't ending up with Sue be the ultimate lazy trope-conforming wish-fulfillment scenario, unless Shimoku puts a big spin on it real quick? scratch
 


Spoiler:

I think it was insinuated during Keiko's chapter that the face-touch was kind of a "this was really fun but I realize this isn't going to work" kind of thing.
Spoiler:
I read that as Keiko putting words in Angela's mouth to bolster her own chances silent

This chapter is masterful because I didn't even realize I was rooting for Angela, but now I'm like taking out my earrings ready to defend her honor Laughing
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Re: Genshiken

Post by Enail on Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:34 pm

Werel wrote:

Spoiler:

I think it was insinuated during Keiko's chapter that the face-touch was kind of a "this was really fun but I realize this isn't going to work" kind of thing.
Spoiler:
I read that as Keiko putting words in Angela's mouth to bolster her own chances silent

This chapter is masterful because I didn't even realize I was rooting for Angela, but now I'm like taking out my earrings ready to defend her honor Laughing

Spoiler:
I'd actually forgotten about Angela Uh-oh But I've not really been into Angela as a contender since way back when before the whole harem thing, he had a strong negative reaction to people pushing him to take her up on her interest, that seemed like more than just the indecision and discomfort he's shown otherwise, and was never really explained or remarked on afterwards. It seems like the only thing he has had a decisive reaction to was no to either Angela or the way people were pushing him. Without confirmation that it's the latter, it doesn't seem right to me.
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Re: Genshiken

Post by bomaye on Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:27 pm

Werel wrote:
Spoiler:
Yeahhhh. But isn't this series about, like, personal growth beyond limiting otaku fantasies? Wouldn't ending up with Sue be the ultimate lazy trope-conforming wish-fulfillment scenario, unless Shimoku puts a big spin on it real quick? scratch
 

Spoiler:

I still think he'll end up with none of them silent
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Re: Genshiken

Post by Solvi on Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:22 pm

bomaye wrote:
Werel wrote:
Spoiler:
Yeahhhh. But isn't this series about, like, personal growth beyond limiting otaku fantasies? Wouldn't ending up with Sue be the ultimate lazy trope-conforming wish-fulfillment scenario, unless Shimoku puts a big spin on it real quick? scratch
 

Spoiler:

I still think he'll end up with none of them silent

Spoiler:

I actually kind of hope that turns out to be the case.  Since I've always seen Madarame as being the character in the Genshiken who's most like me, I think I'd probably feel even more inadequate if he ends up happily partnered.  Someone needs to be the standard-bearer for those of us in the "so-otaku-the-world-recoils-at-the-sight-of-us" camp.

...Though I guess, now that I think about it, I'm actually more like Kugayama, who's never gotten any romantic attention from anyone and now basically seems to have disappeared from the story.

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Re: Genshiken

Post by Enail on Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:56 pm

Solvi wrote:
Spoiler:

I actually kind of hope that turns out to be the case.  Since I've always seen Madarame as being the character in the Genshiken who's most like me, I think I'd probably feel even more inadequate if he ends up happily partnered.  Someone needs to be the standard-bearer for those of us in the "so-otaku-the-world-recoils-at-the-sight-of-us" camp.

Spoiler:

I also hope he doesn't end up with any of them, I feel like they've gotten over-focused on romance, and also all previous requited romances have basically ended up with "together forever" which doesn't really feel all that real for a bunch of young adults in their first relationships, it would be nice to see something a little different happen in the end.

But I think Genshiken has always been in part about breaking down that "so-otaku-the-world-recoils-at-the-sight-of-us" idea- isn't that exactly the kind of sentiment Kasukabe would dismiss as typical otaku over-dramaticism? Razz
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Re: Genshiken

Post by Solvi on Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:04 pm

Enail wrote:
Spoiler:

But I think Genshiken has always been in part about breaking down that "so-otaku-the-world-recoils-at-the-sight-of-us" idea- isn't that exactly the kind of sentiment Kasukabe would dismiss as typical otaku over-dramaticism? Razz

Spoiler:

It is, but is she necessarily right? I kind of get the feeling that the series' sentiment is that otaku should at least try to put themselves out there, but that doesn't mean that things will eventually turn out well, or even favorably. I can't shake the feeling that sometimes, the world really does recoil.

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Re: Genshiken

Post by Enail on Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:21 pm

Solvi wrote:
Spoiler:

It is, but is she necessarily right?  I kind of get the feeling that the series' sentiment is that otaku should at least try to put themselves out there, but that doesn't mean that things will eventually turn out well, or even favorably.  I can't shake the feeling that sometimes, the world really does recoil.

Spoiler:

I've generally taken its general worldview as somewhere in the neighbourhood of "embrace your passions and you'll find where you belong" and "it's only weird if you make it weird," it's always struck me as a pretty optimistic series. I can't think of any bits that could be interpreted as the world recoiling (other than flashback-y bits talking about their pre-teen/teenage years), what parts are you thinking of?
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Re: Genshiken

Post by Solvi on Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:52 pm

Enail wrote:
Solvi wrote:
Spoiler:

It is, but is she necessarily right?  I kind of get the feeling that the series' sentiment is that otaku should at least try to put themselves out there, but that doesn't mean that things will eventually turn out well, or even favorably.  I can't shake the feeling that sometimes, the world really does recoil.

Spoiler:

I've generally taken its general worldview as somewhere in the neighbourhood of "embrace your passions and you'll find where you belong" and "it's only weird if you make it weird," it's always struck me as a pretty optimistic series. I can't think of any bits that could be interpreted as the world recoiling (other than flashback-y bits talking about their pre-teen/teenage years), what parts are you thinking of?

Spoiler:

I guess I'm kind of fixated on Kugayama getting sidelined, with "the world recoiling" being a metaphor for a broader sense of things just not panning out; that not everyone gets a happy ending.  It might just be that I'm a tragedy junkie -- for example, I can't see Hato's storyline ending with him finding happiness, though I'm only up to chapter 99 or so -- but the series, for me, has always had a melancholic streak mixed in with its optimism.

Like with the cover for volume 5 of the Nidaime tankoubons, where Madarame sits alone in the clubroom, bathed in blue light.  I've been reading his arc as him struggling to find a place in the series' new dynamic, with Saki having rejected him, the rest of the guys having moved on, and the harem being a bit of theatricality that he doesn't really want in his life. That cover really seems to crystallize his inner state: his loneliness at watching the world slip by, while he's still stuck in place.



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Re: Genshiken

Post by Enail on Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:21 pm

Spoiler:
Oh yeah, oops, I kind of took away from Kugayama's cameo more "wow, he's so comfortable in the world of business and cabarets and things, he's gotten cool," but rereading it, there was that whole bit where he was jealous of Madarame for having a harem and seemed pretty unhappy, so I guess it's just my memory.  

I'd certainly agree that the series has a melancholy quality, and I've read Madarame's arc similarly to you, or starting from that point at least, but I also see it as pretty much his story of figuring out how he wants to move forward from that, and I would be surprised if it ends with him at as much of a loose end as he was in the beginning, whatever happens with the harem. It's not a world where everything works out neatly, but it feels like one to me where, if you try (and get a plotline, which is what trying seems to involve, in-universe Razz), you can find a place for yourself.

In the same spirit, I rather like that the friendships break apart somewhat. Instead of "these people are a perfect circle of friends for the rest of their lives," there's the melancholy and nostalgia of graduation and people continuing to see each other in drips and drabs, making little cameos, but not being each others' worlds the same way as they were once. You can find that place for yourself, but life moves on, and it won't be the same place forever. It feels optimistic but also imperfect, and I'd like to see that same imperfection in the relationships more.
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Re: Genshiken

Post by bomaye on Sun Jan 03, 2016 1:17 am

So the next two Genshiken chapters are out but they weren't uploaded to my usual site

I'm using Kissmanga for 117 and 118
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Re: Genshiken

Post by bomaye on Sun Jan 03, 2016 1:25 am

117

Spoiler:

Storming the Castle Hato-chan Sad Sad Sad

Everything Yajima said was very sad Sad

118

Spoiler:

SIT BOY  Laughing

SUE

IS

SPEAKING

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


HOLY SHIT

Also Laughing at the smooch picture
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Re: Genshiken

Post by Enail on Sun Jan 03, 2016 1:29 pm

117:
I really liked that chapter, the combination of talking honestly about feelings and maybe-feelings and insecurity, and how much it was clear that whether or not they ever could/would date, they both respect and care a lot about each other. It feels like a genuine, complicated friendship, and I'm glad to see the story not losing that kind of thing in all the harem drama.

118:
Holy shit, Sue! She went from not even being a real contender in my books to my #1 choice! Madarame actually interacting with her like they're people (and they actually seem to get on and like they might enjoy each others' company!), both of them blushing like mad but actually being brave enough to acknowledge the situation and talk anyway, and then Sue spitting it out and being brave/fair enough to want Hato to get a turn to make his case and getting her kiss Laughing .

I could actually even see them have a future story-wise, because they're both so awkward there's a lot of entertainment potential in them gradually learning how to actually have a relationship  - with her, Madarame has to step up because she's as awkward and uncommunicative as he is, whereas with any of the others, he can rely on them to bridge the gap and make it easier, and it seems like it's a huuuuge amount of social growth for her to even be allowing herself to crush on a real person, let alone be using her own words and being vulnerable, so I don't think they'd need to just be paired off and done with.

I still lean towards thinking he won't end up with any of them, but I'm kind of rooting otherwise now Uh-oh
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Re: Genshiken

Post by bomaye on Sun Jan 03, 2016 8:18 pm

118

Spoiler:

I liked how when the two of them were together, it was suddenly like Madarame was the "lead" and he was trying to get Sue out of her shell. Keiko and Angela have always been leader types with him, and Hato and him always seem like they're too worried about each other for one to naturally lead over the other for long, but Sue is so uncommunicative that Madarame can't do anything but try to calm her down.

I agree, that pairing leapfrogged to #1 as soon as Sue started talking for realsies
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Re: Genshiken

Post by Enail on Sun Jan 03, 2016 8:38 pm

118:
@bomaye, exactly! They both land up having to push themselves to take an active role with each other, Sue making most of the big moves and Madarame putting most of the effort into bringing them into proper interactions, so it seems more equal and more a source of mutual growth than the other pairings. Hato and Madarame are equal in a different way, but it's more of them being fairly safe and comfortable together than pushing each other to grow as much (though Hato's crush has given him a lot of character growth in terms of figuring out who he is and what he wants beyond fitting in, I feel like a relationship after decision-point might not do much more for his character development).

I was kind of shocked that Sue's Japanese was up to that much, I assumed the catchphrase-ing was covering for very minimal ability, which makes her actually way more awkward than I'd been reading it. I kind of feel like Shimoku hasn't always been conveying her character beyond catchphrase-spouting joke character as well as intended, and that might be why she keeps being treated like a more serious contender in the harem at points where it didn't quite make sense to some of us (Litterature, you win on this one! Smile ).  Now that we're seeing more of that, I really hope she's going to stay on scene and get more development past the harem storyline, however it goes.
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Re: Genshiken

Post by Werel on Mon Jan 04, 2016 1:34 pm

117:
YAJIMA Crying

Punched in the guttyworks by everything she said (and didn't say out loud), but yeah, it was really nice to see it made clear how much they like and respect each other regardless of any potential romantic involvement. And I guess that last page makes clear how we get to Spotted Flower thin Yajima.

118:
Holy cow, Sue!

I almost don't know what to make of this chapter, with Sue going from barely-a-character to a pretty sympathetic one/reasonably compelling contender in the space of like five pages. Agree with y'all that the dynamic between them, with the mutual awkwardness but stubborn efforts to talk about it, and the necessity for Madarame to take some damn initiative for once, is good for both of them. But I can't shake the feeling that it's a little... pat? Like it's a very neat anime trope, still, the mute loli suddenly finding her voice to confess, and needing the formerly spineless hero to dig deep into his hero reserves to guide her? Maybe I just need to read it a couple more times for it to click as something more authentic and less tropey, or maybe Shimoku will do what he does well and put a twist on that trope.

Sue does get mad points for letting Hato have his turn. And BAWWWW at that smooch pic. Laughing
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Re: Genshiken

Post by bomaye on Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:05 pm

Werel wrote:
118:
But I can't shake the feeling that it's a little... pat? Like it's a very neat anime trope, still, the mute loli suddenly finding her voice to confess, and needing the formerly spineless hero to dig deep into his hero reserves to guide her? Maybe I just need to read it a couple more times for it to click as something more authentic and less tropey, or maybe Shimoku will do what he does well and put a twist on that trope.

Spoiler:

I dunno, it may be kind of trope-ish, but we didn't even know it was a trope until like the last second or two. It was kind of really cleverly disguised because for some reason the spineless nerd had attracted the attention of the busty peppy foreigner, the cabaret club bratty little sister and the cuter-than-most-girls crossdressing boy. It seems kind of realistic in that at least the shy girl is probably gonna match up better wit the wimp than any of the other ones would?
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