NerdLounge
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs

+4
Andrew Corvero
Aggrax
eselle28
PintsizeBro
8 posters

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Go down

Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs Empty Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs

Post by Guest Fri May 15, 2015 9:46 pm

Mad Max (the new one) looks incredible. It's getting incredible ratings. I'm going to see it tomorrow night.

But I've seen tons of articles of Red Pillers slamming the movie for having a female character that isn't a love interest and kicks just as much ass as Max himself. They're also mad that the plot revolves around Max and Furiosa (Charlize Theron's character) trying to help save a group of sex slaves from a dictator.

What's your thoughts on all this? I tried going on Return of Kings (the biggest MRA site), and the stuff in there is so hateful that I felt sick to my stomach reading this. Openly encouraging abuse and rape on there, yuck.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs Empty Re: Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs

Post by PintsizeBro Fri May 15, 2015 10:47 pm

Weren't they bashing the eeeeeeevil feminists corrupting an "American icon"? Because apparently they don't know how to use Google, Wikipedia, or IMDB to realize that Mad Max was an Australian movie?

One thing I think is really cool about the new movie is it's not somebody else making a reboot. George Miller directed the original in 1979, and he directed the latest one in 2015. How's that for continuity in a series?

PintsizeBro

Posts : 307
Reputation : 233
Join date : 2015-02-13

Back to top Go down

Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs Empty Re: Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs

Post by eselle28 Fri May 15, 2015 11:37 pm

I just finished watching it. Everything they claim is absolutely true* and it's awesome.

*And it's not just a female character. There are more speaking parts for women than men in the movie, and only one woman has a love interest.


Last edited by eselle28 on Fri May 15, 2015 11:39 pm; edited 2 times in total
eselle28
eselle28
General Oversight Moderator

Posts : 1994
Reputation : 999
Join date : 2014-09-24

Back to top Go down

Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs Empty Re: Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs

Post by Aggrax Fri May 15, 2015 11:38 pm

I saw a rather hilarious tweet from some MRA claiming that Fury Road was ruined by feminists, it should have been renamed Mad Maxie Pads and that clearly no one involved had seen the previous movies because they ruined everything.

I couldn't help but laugh at that.
Aggrax
Aggrax

Posts : 189
Reputation : 54
Join date : 2014-10-02

Back to top Go down

Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs Empty Re: Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs

Post by Guest Sun May 17, 2015 1:45 pm

eselle28 wrote:I just finished watching it. Everything they claim is absolutely true* and it's awesome.

*And it's not just a female character. There are more speaking parts for women than men in the movie, and only one woman has a love interest.

Cosigned, super good movie.

Also, I read that George Miller brought Eve Ensler to the set of the movie to lead a workshop on violence against women.

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/05/mad-max-fury-road-george-miller-interview

So this movie just gets better and better. Razz

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs Empty Re: Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs

Post by Andrew Corvero Sun May 17, 2015 2:01 pm

The movie kicks ass! It's a love letter to the tropes of '80s action movies, only with far better characterization, dialogue and writing in general. I hope it's a huge financial success and it inspires more writers to write better characters and stories for their action movies.

I don't even know why the MRAs can't stand it. Probably because it has some very good female characters, and they can't stand to see well-written women in a movie for some reason (i.e. they're misogynist assholes). They're pretty horrible people, though, so I'm happy that this movie pisses them off!

I saw a rather hilarious tweet from some MRA claiming that Fury Road was ruined by feminists, it should have been renamed Mad Maxie Pads and that clearly no one involved had seen the previous movies because they ruined everything.

Somebody should show George Miller that tweet. Laughing

_________________
"People don't just change who they are in an instant. It takes time, so you don't even know you're changing. Until one day you'll just a little bit different than you used to be and you can't even tell what the hell happened" (Rich Burlew)

"You shouldn't take advice from random strangers on the Internet too seriously" said the random stranger on the Internet.
Andrew Corvero
Andrew Corvero

Posts : 184
Reputation : 136
Join date : 2015-04-17

Back to top Go down

Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs Empty Re: Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs

Post by BasedBuzzed Sun May 17, 2015 4:22 pm

Mad Max? Moar like Max Mad, amirite?

Only possibly legit complaint I saw on that site was the possibility that the title character would get shafted in the screentime department. Which he doesn't know, because he hasn't seen it.

This is horseshoe theory in action. I predict an article from the other end of the aisle whining that the movie is Not Feminist Enough(tm) for precisely the same reasons. They dare even depict sex slavery(feminist propaganda/lurid sensationalization of victimized women) and the problems are solved through women taking on masculine roles(masculine chicks ewww/patriarchy paradigm perpetuated), also penned by someone who didn't see the movie.

_________________
Pompeii, VIII.2 (in the basilica); 1904: "O walls, you have held up so much tedious graffiti that I am amazed that you have not already collapsed in ruin."
BasedBuzzed
BasedBuzzed

Posts : 811
Reputation : 267
Join date : 2014-10-01

Back to top Go down

Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs Empty Re: Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs

Post by Enail Sun May 17, 2015 4:40 pm

I'm not sure you can really call it horseshoe theory in action until you actually see such an article. Otherwise, it's just horseshoe theory in your prediction.
Enail
Enail
Admin

Posts : 4853
Reputation : 2868
Join date : 2014-09-22

Back to top Go down

Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs Empty Re: Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs

Post by BasedBuzzed Sun May 17, 2015 4:51 pm

Alright, horseshoe theory in theory then.

_________________
Pompeii, VIII.2 (in the basilica); 1904: "O walls, you have held up so much tedious graffiti that I am amazed that you have not already collapsed in ruin."
BasedBuzzed
BasedBuzzed

Posts : 811
Reputation : 267
Join date : 2014-10-01

Back to top Go down

Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs Empty Re: Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs

Post by Guest Sun May 17, 2015 10:17 pm

Saw it last night.

Holy. Fucking. Fuck.

I am in awe. Literal awe. This is exactly the kind of movie I want to make. I can't think of a single bad thing about it. Definitely a feminist movie, wasn't bothered by it. Characters treated like real people regardless of gender. The action is incredible. God, I love it so goddamn much.

Plus I've been listening to this nonstop:


Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs Empty Re: Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs

Post by Gentleman Johnny Mon May 18, 2015 6:59 pm

Right with you, Glides. The fan community is eating this the fuck up. Amazingly, I'm not the only one pondering a 10 foot tall bog walker costume.

_________________
Gentleman Johnny
Not John Galt
Gentleman Johnny
Gentleman Johnny

Posts : 555
Reputation : 213
Join date : 2014-10-02

Back to top Go down

Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs Empty Re: Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs

Post by BasedBuzzed Tue May 19, 2015 8:20 pm

Not an article, but called it: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CFZ0NMPWoAEkjw1.jpg

"lurid sensationalization of victimized women"(the camera caresses the brides' bodies)/"patriarchy paradigm perpetuated"(equal partners in a cinematic orgy of male violence).

_________________
Pompeii, VIII.2 (in the basilica); 1904: "O walls, you have held up so much tedious graffiti that I am amazed that you have not already collapsed in ruin."
BasedBuzzed
BasedBuzzed

Posts : 811
Reputation : 267
Join date : 2014-10-01

Back to top Go down

Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs Empty Re: Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs

Post by Enail Tue May 19, 2015 9:09 pm

So, do you think it's possible to critique the film (that it sounds like the critiquer has seen, in this case) as not being a total feminist paradise without being the equivalent of ill-informed complaints that something has too many women with overly central, active roles?

You certainly called it on the criticisms she makes, but I feel like treating this as an example of horseshoe theory is treating "has too many women with overly central, active roles," (and I think that's a pretty polite way of phrasing the actual complaints) as a fairly moderate and valid complaint - I find it pretty...discouraging that you'd consider that something that is balanced by and equivalent to "just because something has lots of active women in it doesn't mean it's feminist (without saying it's a bad movie or it's a bad thing that it exists, I'll note)."
Enail
Enail
Admin

Posts : 4853
Reputation : 2868
Join date : 2014-09-22

Back to top Go down

Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs Empty Re: Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs

Post by Gentleman Johnny Tue May 19, 2015 11:31 pm

Spoilers! SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS!

Spoilers!:

_________________
Gentleman Johnny
Not John Galt
Gentleman Johnny
Gentleman Johnny

Posts : 555
Reputation : 213
Join date : 2014-10-02

Back to top Go down

Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs Empty Re: Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs

Post by eselle28 Wed May 20, 2015 1:31 am

Gentleman Johnny wrote:Spoilers! SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS!

I'm not terribly knowledgable about the world of Mad Max, but my interpretation of the film I saw is a lot closer to yours than Sarkeesian's.
Spoilers abound:
eselle28
eselle28
General Oversight Moderator

Posts : 1994
Reputation : 999
Join date : 2014-09-24

Back to top Go down

Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs Empty Re: Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs

Post by Gentleman Johnny Wed May 20, 2015 2:21 am

I'm actually not much of a Mad Max fan. I am a Fury Road fan. So I'm not factoring the others into the above except inasmuch as it defined the genre of gritty apunkalyptic (look it up on TVTropes if you have a week to kill) movies like its own series, Book Of Eli, Doomsday etc. I think my final analysis is that there can both be room for the movie Sakreesian wants, I mean she lays out a pretty specific set of qualifications and also be room for Fury Road. In that absolute sense, maybe FR doesn't stack up but in an incremental sense, it treats women immeasurably better than the rest of it subgenre, or movies in general that aren't specifically targeted at women.

Edit: Also, can we make a public transcript of this somewhere so the next time anyone claims that everyone who disagrees with Anita gets flamed off the Internet., we'll have a counterexample.
Achievement Unlocked: Social Justice Duelist - disagreed with Anita Sarkeesian without losing your job.

Spoiler:

_________________
Gentleman Johnny
Not John Galt
Gentleman Johnny
Gentleman Johnny

Posts : 555
Reputation : 213
Join date : 2014-10-02

Back to top Go down

Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs Empty Re: Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs

Post by BasedBuzzed Wed May 20, 2015 3:49 am

Enail wrote:So, do you think it's possible to critique the film (that it sounds like the critiquer has seen, in this case) as not being a total feminist paradise without being the equivalent of ill-informed complaints that something has too many women with overly central, active roles?

You certainly called it on the criticisms she makes, but I feel like treating this as an example of horseshoe theory is treating "has too many women with overly central, active roles," (and I think that's a pretty polite way of phrasing the actual complaints) as a fairly moderate and valid complaint - I find it pretty...discouraging that you'd consider that something that is balanced by and equivalent to "just because something has lots of active women in it doesn't mean it's feminist (without saying it's a bad movie or it's a bad thing that it exists, I'll note)."

I feel it's informed by the same place: a sort of retrograde gender essentialism that insists masculine=violence and feminine=negotiation, in which the vulnerability of the latter is offensive(whether it is always exploitative for the male gaze or because 'men do bad things to women' triggers the muh misandry radar).

_________________
Pompeii, VIII.2 (in the basilica); 1904: "O walls, you have held up so much tedious graffiti that I am amazed that you have not already collapsed in ruin."
BasedBuzzed
BasedBuzzed

Posts : 811
Reputation : 267
Join date : 2014-10-01

Back to top Go down

Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs Empty Re: Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs

Post by Andrew Corvero Wed May 20, 2015 7:59 am

BasedBuzzed wrote:
Enail wrote:So, do you think it's possible to critique the film (that it sounds like the critiquer has seen, in this case) as not being a total feminist paradise without being the equivalent of ill-informed complaints that something has too many women with overly central, active roles?

You certainly called it on the criticisms she makes, but I feel like treating this as an example of horseshoe theory is treating "has too many women with overly central, active roles," (and I think that's a pretty polite way of phrasing the actual complaints) as a fairly moderate and valid complaint - I find it pretty...discouraging that you'd consider that something that is balanced by and equivalent to "just because something has lots of active women in it doesn't mean it's feminist (without saying it's a bad movie or it's a bad thing that it exists, I'll note)."

I feel it's informed by the same place: a sort of retrograde gender essentialism that insists masculine=violence and feminine=negotiation,  in which the vulnerability of the latter is offensive(whether it is always exploitative for the male gaze or because 'men do bad things to women' triggers the muh misandry radar).

Exactly. I think that violence, while not worthy of admiration on its own, is sometimes necessary for everyone. Self-defense, defense of others, and overthrowing an oppressive bloodthirsty dictatorship are all actions that can require some violence but are morally right stances. Hopefully one can deal with aggressive people or systematic oppression without resorting to violence, but that's not always the case. True, Gandhi fought the British domination of India through non-violent means, but I don't think he would have fared well against an even more ruthless and violent regime (like, say, the Nazis).

Even today, in many parts of the world, people have to fight for their freedom and life with guns because the opposite side isn't going to be swayed by social activism. In Kobane and other Kurd enclaves in Syria hundreds of women take up arms and fight against ISIS, which isn't much better than the Fury Road villains.

I strongly disagree with Sarkeesian when she says that the oppression of the Fury Road bad guys is "cartoonish": many groups in the real world behave and have behaved like them or not much better. The members of ISIS execute anyone who opposes them and they do unspeakable things to women. People who belong to the Boko Haram group kidnap schoolgirls and treat them like objects, even going as far as using them as suicide bombers. The Uganda government has the same attitude towards gays: they encourage systemic violence and even murder and rape.

To say nothing of all the oppressive fascist and communist regimes that exist and have ever existed. Is North Korea or was Nazi Germany more restrained than the villains of Fury Road towards the people they deem or deemed worthy of destruction?

What I'm saying is that celebrating a reaction of the oppressed against the oppressors seems a good idea to me. Even if it's very violent.

Sarkeesian also seems to think that violence is always tragic. I disagree. When someone chooses to be violent and oppressive and they die because other people don't want to be oppressed their death isn't a tragedy, it's the choice of free people not to be dominated and it can be celebrated as a fight for freedom.

_________________
"People don't just change who they are in an instant. It takes time, so you don't even know you're changing. Until one day you'll just a little bit different than you used to be and you can't even tell what the hell happened" (Rich Burlew)

"You shouldn't take advice from random strangers on the Internet too seriously" said the random stranger on the Internet.
Andrew Corvero
Andrew Corvero

Posts : 184
Reputation : 136
Join date : 2015-04-17

Back to top Go down

Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs Empty Re: Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs

Post by Enail Wed May 20, 2015 12:09 pm

I haven't seen it (yet!), so commenting more generally, I'm generally on board with action movies as potentially, if not feminist (which I find a kind of weird way of thinking about movies), feminist-friendly. I do agree that Sarkeesian's comments are quite gender essentialist, and suspect I will disagree with her on the movie when I see it.

But I still think it falls very much into the category of artistic criticism that can be discussed and debated. It's also framed as 'is this movie feminist;' a debate on what makes something feminist, not as 'is this movie bad because it is not feminist,' or even 'is this movie doing harm because it is not feminist.' And I therefore find it really troubling to pair it as an equal-but-opposite criticism to assertions - apparently based only on the fact that a female protagonist seems to be in a major, non-romantic, active role - that it's feminist propaganda ruining women, going to destroy action movies as anything other than vehicles for SJWism and contributing to the downfall of society by trying to destroy traditional gender roles.

Not all criticism is equal; not even all criticism that is wrong (by which I of course mean 'that I disagree with' Razz) is equal, and I think treating it as such is giving room at the mainstream table to some pretty extreme ideas. Balance doesn't always mean finding the middle point between the two loudest opposing views.
Enail
Enail
Admin

Posts : 4853
Reputation : 2868
Join date : 2014-09-22

Back to top Go down

Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs Empty Re: Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs

Post by Guest Wed May 20, 2015 1:14 pm

Sarkeesian is also notably pacifist, and many of the more legitimate criticisms of her previous Tropes work have been based on her reaction to things given her personal ethics surrounding violence and her pretty essentialist alignment of violence = masculine, nonviolence = feminine. It's her biggest weakness as a 101 instructor, I think. She's toned it down some for her Tropes vs. Women in Games stuff, but it seems weird that it surged to the forefront when reviewing an action movie (which, as a single example, is necessarily going to be more violent than games as a whole medium). Possibly it's just because the film has been hailed as a feminist action movie, so she came at it directly from that angle of "is this feminist?" with her bias that feminism cannot equal violence.

For that matter, I was sort of weirded out by the long, loving gaze of the camera on the women in sheer white wet dresses at first, too (literally my reaction was an internal eyeroll and an "oh, for fuck's sake"). But given what came after, I'm pretty sure that was an intentional set-up by Miller, and I definitely disagree that they were treated as objects (after that first shot). They received more characterization than any of the villains, even.


Last edited by Autumnflame on Wed May 20, 2015 1:38 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : repetitive and unclear phrasing)

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs Empty Re: Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs

Post by Andrew Corvero Wed May 20, 2015 1:31 pm

Not all criticism is equal; not even all criticism that is wrong (by which I of course mean 'that I disagree with' Razz) is equal, and I think treating it as such is giving room at the mainstream table to some pretty extreme ideas. Balance doesn't always mean finding the middle point between the two loudest opposing views.

Oh, absolutely. I disagree with Sarkeesian on this movie but her criticism is much better articulated and more grounded than the MRAs' whining about "Evil feminists destroying action movies!".

Sarkeesian is also a noted pacifist, and many of the more legitimate criticisms of her previous Tropes work have been based on her reaction to things given her personal ethics surrounding violence and her pretty essentialist alignment of violence = masculine, nonviolence = feminine.

This is probably why I disagree with her. Not only I think that a gender essentialist view of violence is bullshit, but I'm also not a pacifist (at least not in all situations).

There are some situations where violence is pretty much the only option to stay alive, free and save yourself from horrific violence. In those situations violence is the moral choice, and people who resort to violence to save their life, freedom or bodily autonomy and integrity have nothing to feel ashamed of, or sorry about.

_________________
"People don't just change who they are in an instant. It takes time, so you don't even know you're changing. Until one day you'll just a little bit different than you used to be and you can't even tell what the hell happened" (Rich Burlew)

"You shouldn't take advice from random strangers on the Internet too seriously" said the random stranger on the Internet.
Andrew Corvero
Andrew Corvero

Posts : 184
Reputation : 136
Join date : 2015-04-17

Back to top Go down

Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs Empty Re: Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs

Post by Guest Wed May 20, 2015 1:37 pm

BasedBuzzed wrote:Not an article, but called it: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CFZ0NMPWoAEkjw1.jpg

"lurid sensationalization of victimized women"(the camera caresses the brides' bodies)/"patriarchy paradigm perpetuated"(equal partners in a cinematic orgy of male violence).

Gonna have to join the "She's full of shit" train here.

Because I need the clarification, I agree that no film can strictly be called feminist. I'm retracting my earlier gleeful statement about that.

I took her statement to say that any film expressing violence is a masculine behavior and women engaging in masculine behavior is sexist. But by saying that violence is masculine, you're subscribing to the exact gender roles you claim to oppose. So she's straight up wrong.

She's right to say that the film isn't feminist because of the violence itself. Women fighting doesn't make things any more gender neutral than before.

But still, she's desperately trying to stir up controversy here, I think. She put her two cents in professionally, and I'm not gonna call her nasty things, but I disagree with her entirely. And the world keeps on spinning.

Let it also be known that I'm no expert on what is feminist and what isn't, so feel free to light my opinions on fire.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs Empty Re: Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs

Post by PintsizeBro Wed May 20, 2015 1:58 pm

I haven't seen Fury Road yet, but I am somewhat familiar with Sarkeesian's criticism style as I've heard/read critiques she's made of media I have consumed. This is pretty par for the course - I think she makes some fair points, but she does have a tendency to veer into a different kind of gender essentialism.

I agree with GJ's statement that it's a little unreasonable to complain about violence in an action movie.

PintsizeBro

Posts : 307
Reputation : 233
Join date : 2015-02-13

Back to top Go down

Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs Empty Re: Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs

Post by The Wisp Wed May 20, 2015 2:40 pm

There's a long tradition of a gender essentialist brand of feminism. It's not a majority, at least not anymore, but it's still a force and I think it is fair to say Sarkeesian is one of those people. I don't think she's a hypocrite so much as somebody who ascribes to a very different sort of feminism that we all think is wrong.

ETA: I haven't seen the new Mad Max movie, but Sarkeesian's critique strikes me as yet another instance of why I never liked her criticism and never found it convincing (besides me just thinking her kind of feminism is wrong in many respects), even though there is a lot of legitimate sexism in media to pick apart. It is that she doesn't seem to actually engage with works on their own terms but rather imposes a sort of (radical?) feminist media critique 101 worldview onto works, which leads to uncharitable and specious critiques.
The Wisp
The Wisp

Posts : 896
Reputation : 198
Join date : 2014-10-01

Back to top Go down

Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs Empty Re: Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs

Post by eselle28 Wed May 20, 2015 3:04 pm

The Wisp wrote:There's a long tradition of a gender essentialist brand of feminism. It's not a majority, at least not anymore, but it's still a force and I think it is fair to say Sarkeesian is one of those people. I don't think she's a hypocrite so much as somebody who ascribes to a very different sort of feminism that we all think is wrong.

ETA: I haven't seen the new Mad Max movie, but Sarkeesian's critique strikes me as yet another instance of why I never liked her criticism and never found it convincing (besides me just thinking her kind of feminism is wrong in many respects), even though there is a lot of legitimate sexism in media to pick apart. It is that she doesn't seem to actually engage with works on their own terms but rather imposes a sort of (radical?) feminist media critique 101 worldview onto works, which leads to uncharitable and specious critiques.

I think I'd find her critiques more useful if I had a better grasp on what she both likes and finds largely unproblematic. She's not really doing reviews per se, so we don't tend to see what works get positive reactions from her, but I sometimes find it difficult to evaluate people's objections to media if objections are the only things I see. I'd be curious whether she tends to dislike action movies, or is more accepting of ones where people try to survive natural disasters, or if there's some version of a story with action in it set in the Mad Max universe that she would like. Of course, she's not obliged to provide that information, but I think it would help in distinguishing whether the objection is to certain genres or subgenres that are inherently problematic to her or to the specific execution of particular works.
eselle28
eselle28
General Oversight Moderator

Posts : 1994
Reputation : 999
Join date : 2014-09-24

Back to top Go down

Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs Empty Re: Mad Max Pissing Off MRAs

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum