The Doc really screwed the pooch on today's advice about the boyfriend lying about watching porn [rant/disc]

[Caffeinated]

(Posting here because I hate commenting on DNL prime)

Ok, I read today's letter from No Porn Please (Ask Dr. NerdLove: My Boyfriend Won’t Quit Looking At Porn) hoping for better from the Doc. The LW says when she (assuming she, not specified in the letter) and her boyfriend got together, she said it was important to her that he not watch porn. And he agreed to that, but instead of either sticking to the agreement or reopening the discussion, he did what he wanted behind her back and lied to her about it. To me, the clear issue in this relationship is the lying. The porn is a red herring.

Let me repeat, the porn is a red herring. It could be any request made by one partner in a relationship that the other doesn't want to follow. It could be a food thing, where she wanted a kitchen with no [specific food item] and he was sneaking that food item into the kitchen when she wasn't there. It could be a money thing, where she wanted them to discuss any large purchases over [dollar amount] and he was sneaking around spending over that amount without telling. It could be a household chore division thing, where she wanted him to do [particular chore] and he agreed to do it and then just never did unless she stood over him like a taskmaster. It really doesn't matter what the request was.

What makes him a shitty partner is saying ok and then turning right around and doing whatever he felt like instead of facing the difficult conversation where he lays out his actual desires and openly faces the conflict. In my experience, one of the worst possible traits in a partner is that horrible combination of cowardice and deceitfulness. People like to excuse it by saying they're just conflict-avoidant, but that's some bullshit. It's rude, insulting, and ultimately will destroy any relationship it touches. Lying to your partner is showing contempt for them. Shrugging off their requests without bothering to address them honestly is showing contempt for your partner. Contempt is the relationship-killer.

Come on Dr. NerdLove, why avoid the real issue to talk about the red herring? Very disappointing.

[Prajnaparamita]

Hmm, I think you have some good points, but my feelings are personally in the middle. I agree, the whole question of lying got totally superseded by DNL for a lecture on a sex-positive view on porn. Which is great and all, I think a lot of people need to hear that, but it sounded like LW had made up her mind and DNL telling her to loosen up around porn was probably a waste of breath all around. I also think the partner was also cowardly in a way to get this demand that I expect he (assuming male partner here) found totally and completely unreasonable and rather than saying that he felt it was unreasonable, pretended to fully go along with it like there was no problem. That's lying, unquestionably, but I think the fact that the lie involves porn makes it a little more nuanced in my mind. I'm not going to compare porn to oxygen, or something ridiculous like that, but it is a very important part of a lot (a lot a lot) of men's (and some women's) masturbation habits. Which basically leaves me wanting to say to LW, if I ever met her, "Honey, you can either accept this, or never date anyone at all. Your choice."

And somehow I feel that she, and many others who are likewise against porn, aren't going to want to take the latter option. Which only leaves a place of "don't ask, don't tell" in terms of the SO porn viewing habits. Now, I do recognize that there is a difference between outright deception and pretending it just isn't happening, but its shaded a lot more grey, and I honestly think that place of willful ignorance the best place you could possibly get to in a stand-off like this.

Also telling LW that they're full of shit is sometimes also necessary (goodness knows Dan Savage and Dear Prudence also do their fair share of this) and I think this might have been one of those cases where going off on a rant about topic of the day is sometimes appropriate. He isn't going to change, she isn't going to change, the two of them are basically fucked unless she stops deluding herself, might as well take the chance to get the message out to the masses about the honest truth of porn consumption.

[Enail]

I think he should have covered both aspects. She needs to know that her expectation is not terribly reasonable, but I do think that the lying, and especially the "I didn't think it was important so I lied" aspect are important. If you can't be honest with your partner and refuse or find a compromise when you're not willing to do something they ask, you can't have a healthy relationship with them.

[eselle28]

I'm with enail. I think the particular relationship being discussed is probably headed to a bad placed, based more on the "I didn't think it was important so I lied" bit rather than the lie itself. Lying is also a problem, but couples can sometimes get past lies. The fact that the boyfriend didn't take the LW's request seriously and still doesn't seem to is something that I think will be difficult for both of them to get past.

I don't think the porn issue is entirely a red herring, though. I think people can ask for lots of things from their partners, but I do think that when people want something fairly unusual, it works far better to seek out someone who already meets that requirement. I think the LW may have to do so when she looks for her next relationship (I don't have high hopes for this one).

[reboot]

I do think the lying was a bigger issue than it was made out to be in the response, BUT I also think people are so messed up with sex and the erotic that the LW needs to reflect on why she feels the way she does about porn (assuming she is a she of course. The writer could be a man). The lie was bad, the attempt at controlling a partner's masturbation was also bad.

If we gender flipped this letter and it was a man who had demanded  that his GF give up using her vibrator or reading erotica and then caught her lying about it, would we still feel the lie was as big an issue as the attempt at controlling her?

That said, this couple needs to be beaten with the talking stick STAT because as it stands this relationship is heading towrds lying and acrimony

[eselle28]

I'm going to say that as long as it's disclosed early on, a man can ask that from the woman he's dating as well. I'm probably going to be unusually hard on the point that I think people can ask for even very unusual things from their partners as long as they disclose them early on (I've just had to suffer through my first date after a hiatus, which was set up by a friend and with a man who she thought met my "no kids, seriously" requirement because his five kids lived in California and Oregon).

I think this is a fairly silly line to draw, but other people think that way about my expectations from relationships, so I try to respect people's feelings on these matters. It wasn't appropriate of the LW to spring this on someone she'd been dating for awhile, which is what sounds like the situation was, but if she really feels this way there are people who share her feelings or she could alternately be single.

[kleenestar]

I don't even care how unreasonable the request is - if you can't trust your partner's word on one thing, you can't trust it on anything.

I also agree with eselle on unusual things being fine to ask for, as long as you are okay with most people not fitting those requirements. For example, I'm aware that most guys wouldn't be okay doing at least fifty percent of caring and relationship work, but I'd sure as shit rather they told me the truth about their willingness to contribute than lied to me and wasted my time.

[reboot]

I swear 99.99% of relationship issues would be solved by talking about the hard shit sooner rather than later

[eselle28]

I swear 99.99% of relationship issues would be solved by talking about the hard shit sooner rather than later

So much this. I really wish people hammered on this part rather than issues of what is actually okay to expect of your partner.

The place where I'll be a bit easy on both the LW and her boyfriend is that I do think they sound like they're fairly young. She may not realize her preference is unusual, and he may not have run into someone who has an unusual preference and takes it seriously.

[reboundstudent]

I swear 99.99% of relationship issues would be solved by talking about the hard shit sooner rather than later

True but that only works if the other person is honest. I've been extremely up front about stuff I want, and either the other person has lied to me right off the bat, consciously/subconsciously disregarded what I said, or agreed at the time but then later used it against me.

Which is probably why the lying struck me as far more egregious than the porn watching. Especially since sometimes, even with YEARS of therapy, that might be something the LW can't get over. I've spent years banging "Porn is acceptable" into my brain, and yet still really struggle with internalized feelings of inferiority, insecurity, and trust.

[reboot]

I swear 99.99% of relationship issues would be solved by talking about the hard shit sooner rather than later

So much this. I really wish people hammered on this part rather than issues of what is actually okay to expect of your partner.

The place where I'll be a bit easy on both the LW and her boyfriend is that I do think they sound like they're fairly young. She may not realize her preference is unusual, and he may not have run into someone who has an unusual preference and takes it seriously.

I had the same impression. I also got a whiff of two people who might have come from a more socially conservative background since they seem to have issues with direct communication about sex. I have heard almost word for word the same complaints/issues from my Mormon and Catholic friends from high school over the years.

[The Wisp]

I swear 99.99% of relationship issues would be solved by talking about the hard shit sooner rather than later

I always thought being too upfront was presumptuous, possibly creepy, clingy, and likely to turn people off. Laying out everything you want in a serious relationship on a first date does seem... off to me.

[reboot]

I swear 99.99% of relationship issues would be solved by talking about the hard shit sooner rather than later

I always thought being too upfront was presumptuous, possibly creepy, clingy, and likely to turn people off. Laying out everything you want in a serious relationship on a first date does seem... off to me.

Earlier does not mean first date. Before having sex, before making a commitment, before moving in together, etc.. Do not wait until after you do something to discuss needs and boundaries

[eselle28]

I swear 99.99% of relationship issues would be solved by talking about the hard shit sooner rather than later

I always thought being too upfront was presumptuous, possibly creepy, clingy, and likely to turn people off. Laying out everything you want in a serious relationship on a first date does seem... off to me.

Timing is difficult, and the first date is generally not such a great time. Oddly, prior to the date can be a good time, especially if whatever the disclosure is gets stated in as a description of yourself rather than as a confession to whoever you're interacting with. If it doesn't happen then, I'd say that expectations about sex should be discussed right around the time people start to have sex and expectations about monogamy should be discussed when people consider becoming monogamous.

[Prajnaparamita]

"I live with him and I’m always available to take care of his sexual needs. I never say no to sex or any fantasies he might want to try."

This is something that really struck out to me after reading it and thinking about it a little--the idea (and I presume this is where this statement came from) that if she makes herself available enough to him and does anything he wants her do to, he'll only ever be attracted to her and never need to experience sexual attraction towards anyone else. And I get what you guys are saying about clear boundaries and communication, but isn't this something that should have been noted too? It would be patently ridiculous for someone to say to their SO "I'm always available to talk with you, and I'll provide you with whatever support or companionship or fun you need, so you're not allowed to have friends!"

You can't be everything to someone all of the time, always. Its impossible. That's just ridiculous, and really unhealthy for you as well. I now wish this had been at least noted, because as far as I read it it really came across as originating from toxic notions of One True Love and that if someone is truly attracted to you, they should never be attracted to anyone else at all, ever. And if that is a belief the LW holds, its something that I imagine might drag down relationships to come.

[eselle28]

"I live with him and I’m always available to take care of his sexual needs. I never say no to sex or any fantasies he might want to try."

This is something that really struck out to me after reading it and thinking about it a little--the idea (and I presume this is where this statement came from) that if she makes herself available enough to him and does anything he wants her do to, he'll only ever be attracted to her and never need to experience sexual attraction towards anyone else. And I get what you guys are saying about clear boundaries and communication, but isn't this something that should have been noted too? It would be patently ridiculous for someone to say to their SO "I'm always available to talk with you, and I'll provide you with whatever support or companionship or fun you need, so you're not allowed to have friends!"

You can't be everything to someone all of the time, always. Its impossible. That's just ridiculous, and really unhealthy for you as well. I now wish this had been at least noted, because as far as I read it it really came across as originating from toxic notions of One True Love and that if someone is truly attracted to you, they should never be attracted to anyone else at all, ever. And if that is a belief the LW holds, its something that I imagine might drag down relationships to come.

Yeah, that's fair. I think a person can validly link pornography to monogamy by setting limits like "no masturbation" or "no external aids for masturbation" (though they'll probably struggle to find partners who agree to those things), but the link to attraction rather than behavior is a lot more troublesome and probably does suggest some problematic underlying attitudes.

[reboundstudent]

"I live with him and I’m always available to take care of his sexual needs. I never say no to sex or any fantasies he might want to try."

This is something that really struck out to me after reading it and thinking about it a little--the idea (and I presume this is where this statement came from) that if she makes herself available enough to him and does anything he wants her do to, he'll only ever be attracted to her and never need to experience sexual attraction towards anyone else. And I get what you guys are saying about clear boundaries and communication, but isn't this something that should have been noted too? It would be patently ridiculous for someone to say to their SO "I'm always available to talk with you, and I'll provide you with whatever support or companionship or fun you need, so you're not allowed to have friends!"

You can't be everything to someone all of the time, always. Its impossible. That's just ridiculous, and really unhealthy for you as well. I now wish this had been at least noted, because as far as I read it it really came across as originating from toxic notions of One True Love and that if someone is truly attracted to you, they should never be attracted to anyone else at all, ever. And if that is a belief the LW holds, its something that I imagine might drag down relationships to come.

I think that's something of an unfair comparison, because the cultural assumption about monogamy is that some level of emotional intimacy is allowed outside of the relationship, while sexual intimacy is not. That's a pretty solid definition of monogamy. So the suggestion that your partner needs someone else for sexual gratification kind of undermines the idea that the sexual intimacy is reserved exclusively for the relationship. It isn't a far leap to go from "Partner is attracted to someone else" to "Partner will follow through on attraction to someone else," which if you're in a monogamous relationship, is very threatening.

I dated a guy a few years ago during a phase when I was trying very hard to not be threatened by porn but the insecurity and inadequacy I felt was still very raw and near the surface. The guy I was dating thought it'd be a fantastic idea to tell me he fantasized about the girl at the coffee shop and several of his female friends. By your example, I shouldn't have felt threatened, because hey, my partner is allowed to be attracted to someone else; but this knowledge still made it very hard to believe that sexual intimacy was something that was just between us, that was special and protected.

Also as a note, there are some people who consider certain emotional topics to be out-of-bounds beyond a romantic relationship, and who do say that they should be the primary/only support or companionship for certain topics. Emotional cheating can be a thing, too. I don't think recognizing that some people are protective of certain things within a relationship (emotions, sex) automatically means they have toxic attitudes.

[Prajnaparamita]

I think that's something of an unfair comparison, because the cultural assumption about monogamy is that some level of emotional intimacy is allowed outside of the relationship, while sexual intimacy is not. That's a pretty solid definition of monogamy. So the suggestion that your partner needs someone else for sexual gratification kind of undermines the idea that the sexual intimacy is reserved exclusively for the relationship. It isn't a far leap to go from "Partner is attracted to someone else" to "Partner will follow through on attraction to someone else," which if you're in a monogamous relationship, is very threatening.

I dated a guy a few years ago during a phase when I was trying very hard to not be threatened by porn but the insecurity and inadequacy I felt was still very raw and near the surface. The guy I was dating thought it'd be a fantastic idea to tell me he fantasized about the girl at the coffee shop and several of his female friends. By your example, I shouldn't have felt threatened, because hey, my partner is allowed to be attracted to someone else; but this knowledge still made it very hard to believe that sexual intimacy was something that was just between us, that was special and protected.

Well, okay, I guess we're just going to have to come at things from different perspectives here, because that is a far leap for me. I'm in a strictly monogamous relationship--and keeping the promises you have made is a big deal to my boyfriend, so its not something either of us entered into lightly. But I guess I don't see attraction as this finite resource that will run out if you experience attraction towards anyone but one single person. I believe you can be in a relationship with someone who you find really attractive, enjoy sex with, and be happy with, and still notice attractive strangers on the street and so on. Really the problem as I see it is how they choose to manifest that attraction and how they relate to their partner about it.

For instance, my boyfriend watches porn, quite enthusiastically actually. He's told me about his sex life with ex girlfriends, and makes comments from time to time (delicately) about enjoying watching young co-eds in bikinis come summer. And while I understand why this might be an issue of YMMV, because you don't come from the same place as me, I don't have a problem with it at all. That's because I'm confident that he's attracted to me, and he wants to be with me in a monogamous relationship. He actually apologized to me once, saying that it was rude of him to talk about ex girlfriends so much, and I said I hadn't noticed, and hadn't minded, because most of the stories are pretty hilarious or interesting, and I told him "Look, I can tell you're attracted to me, and that's not going anywhere anytime soon. That is something through your actions and words you have made clear to me, and its not something I feel the need to doubt. And if I didn't feel like that...? Well, then I think we would have a problem, and I would want to examine our behavior. But right now, we don't. So don't worry about it."

My boyfriend knows I have a little crush on a professor of ours. He also knows I realize how silly it is and that I'm never going to act on it, and it doesn't make me want to be with him any less. But I imagine in a case kind of like yours, where perhaps, I was talking to him about lusting over close male friends and he wasn't getting a feeling from me that I was really committed to this (because it sounds like the guy you were with was talking about the other people he was attracted to in a really callous and insensitive way, and possibly using it to hint at something more) I imagine he'd probably be really bothered by it.

Frankly, I think the guy you were with was just a flat-out jerk, because there's a difference between acknowledging something and rubbing it in your face, and that sounds a lot more like the latter. Insecurity, as far as I can tell from my experience, comes from lack of trust. If you feel you can't trust someone, its hard to feel secure in what they're saying. But if they're behaving in a way that makes you feel like you can't trust them (and you've talked about it), as far as I care that's their fault, not yours, for you feeling insecure as a result.

[reboot]

Honestly, I felt that quote might have had a lot to do with her objection to porn, in the sense of "I give you everything you want, whenever you want, and cater to all your fantasies, yet you still need porn?" Sort of the feeling that she/he is giving their all and it is not enough

[Hirundo Bos]

Okay, I'm in a bit of a strange emotional place today, and my not-about-me-button isn't working properly, but something in the start of the thread felt... too close to being about me?

What makes him a shitty partner is saying ok and then turning right around and doing whatever he felt like instead of facing the difficult conversation where he lays out his actual desires and openly faces the conflict. In my experience, one of the worst possible traits in a partner is that horrible combination of cowardice and deceitfulness. People like to excuse it by saying they're just conflict-avoidant, but that's some bullshit. It's rude, insulting, and ultimately will destroy any relationship it touches. Lying to your partner is showing contempt for them. Shrugging off their requests without bothering to address them honestly is showing contempt for your partner. Contempt is the relationship-killer.

because while I don't think I would say ok to something while planning at the time to break the promise, I can see two other things happening... 1) I could agree to do something (like, say, a household chore) and later find out I couldn't keep to it, and the task of reopening the issue, take the initiative to that hard conversation, would be too much for me, communication is hard enough when it is about easy things.

And 2)... and this is something that I have thought a lot about lately... There's been a tendency in the past to switch into auto-pilot and just go along with things when the social/interpersonal situation becomes to complicated... to answer to people's expectations because I don't know what else to do... sometimes objections will be there, but I can't get the words out. Sometimes I'm hardly even aware of the objections...

So... My not-about-me button isn't working properly. I'm not sure if Caffeinated's paragraph is about me or not... I have a feeling it isn't, but I'm not quite sure how... I know I'm nothing the habit of lying, and I rarely feel contempt for anyone, but anxiety-driven behavior may outwardly be identical to both, and do the same kind of harm.

And if it is about me, I'm not sure how to go from there, how to not be that person when it counts.

I'm also not sure if I should say this here or if I should have started a new thread... or maybe have waited until I got to a better emotional place... I think I just jumped the occasion because I saw some things I've been worrying about very clearly stated, and I felt I had the words to ask about it now and I might not have them tomorrow.

[Caffeinated]

Okay, I'm in a bit of a strange emotional place today, and my not-about-me-button isn't working properly, but something in the start of the thread felt... too close to being about me?

What makes him a shitty partner is saying ok and then turning right around and doing whatever he felt like instead of facing the difficult conversation where he lays out his actual desires and openly faces the conflict. In my experience, one of the worst possible traits in a partner is that horrible combination of cowardice and deceitfulness. People like to excuse it by saying they're just conflict-avoidant, but that's some bullshit. It's rude, insulting, and ultimately will destroy any relationship it touches. Lying to your partner is showing contempt for them. Shrugging off their requests without bothering to address them honestly is showing contempt for your partner. Contempt is the relationship-killer.

because while I don't think I would say ok to something while planning at the time to break the promise, I can see two other things happening... 1) I could agree to do something (like, say, a household chore) and later find out I couldn't keep to it, and the task of reopening the issue, take the initiative to that hard conversation, would be too much for me, communication is hard enough when it is about easy things.

And 2)... and this is something that I have thought a lot about lately... There's been a tendency in the past to switch into auto-pilot and just go along with things when the social/interpersonal situation becomes to complicated... to answer to people's expectations because I don't know what else to do... sometimes objections will be there, but I can't get the words out. Sometimes I'm hardly even aware of the objections...

So... My not-about-me button isn't working properly. I'm not sure if Caffeinated's paragraph is about me or not... I have a feeling it isn't, but I'm not quite sure how... I know I'm nothing the habit of lying, and I rarely feel contempt for anyone, but anxiety-driven behavior may outwardly be identical to both, and do the same kind of harm.

And if it is about me, I'm not sure how to go from there, how to not be that person when it counts.

I'm also not sure if I should say this here or if I should have started a new thread... or maybe have waited until I got to a better emotional place... I think I just jumped the occasion because I saw some things I've been worrying about very clearly stated, and I felt I had the words to ask about it now and I might not have them tomorrow.

Hmmm, your response has given me a lot to think about, because from other things you've said I've formed the strong impression that you would be a good partner. That's an interesting point you make about anxiety-driven behavior sometimes appearing outwardly identical to other behavior like lying or contempt, and being able to do the same harm. I think it can do the same harm, because the net effect is still a break in trust in the relationship, even in cases where there was no ill intent.

I think in the case of a person who tends to go along with things in the moment and then later realize they're not comfortable, or a person who sometimes can't get the words out, the thing to do might be to have a conversation (or several conversations) about that tendency. Like, tell the other partner how this sometimes happens, and try to put in place some problem-solving in the relationship. For example, maybe come up with a way to signal when things are getting too complicated. Or establish a regular time when the partners check in with each other about the relationship in general, with the expectation that any issues or ideas or possible changes to things can be brought up. Or ask that the partner try to be extra sensitive about creating an atmosphere where their version of things is assumed to be the default correct thing or any situation that could feel socially coercive. Or establish a couple fallback phrases for complicated situations where a partner makes a request, such as "I think that's ok, but can I sleep on it and we'll revisit it again tomorrow" or "can we give that a trial run and then talk about it again in a [day/week/month/other unit of time]" or maybe create a habit of writing down thoughts and notes when they occur and then asking the partner to sit down and read the written version and then talk about it together.

[Wondering]

Yeah, I read the blog post, and I had two reactions to it.

1) The lying is the issue. The lying and the "didn't think it was a big deal (to pretend I'm not doing something I made a promise about)." Dude.

2) The sex shaming masquerading as sex positivity in the article and some of the comments which laugh at, eye roll, condemn, or scoff at the LW for not being okay with porn. She doesn't like it. She needs to find someone she's compatible with, which this boyfriend isn't. But the whiff of superiority-looking-down-on-her for not being okay with porn really rubs me the wrong way.

[Prajnaparamita]

Okay, I'm in a bit of a strange emotional place today, and my not-about-me-button isn't working properly, but something in the start of the thread felt... too close to being about me?

...

Hirundo, I really, really get what you're talking about--the mixture of anxiety and complacency and fear of conflict and making things worse that can lead to worse and worse places. Its something I struggle with a lot, especially with close relationships with my parents, where I sometimes feel like just saying "yes, yes..." will get them off my case for a moment or two, even if I don't really mean it, its I just don't know how to say what I really want. For me its something that comes up in very old relationships--a sort of not quite knowing how to negotiate, and fear of stirring the pot, and so I sort of get trapped and frozen in things I said.

I definitely think this deserves a separate thread, because unpacking it on a more individual level in our own lives and relationships might be a distraction from the discussion here, but if you would be interested in posting about that when you're feeling in a little bit of a better space, I'd certainly be interested in exploring more about that dynamic and how to counter it in my life.

[The Wisp]

2) The sex shaming masquerading as sex positivity in the article and some of the comments which laugh at, eye roll, condemn, or scoff at the LW for not being okay with porn. She doesn't like it. She needs to find someone she's compatible with, which this boyfriend isn't. But the whiff of superiority-looking-down-on-her for not being okay with porn really rubs me the wrong way.

Would you consider it sex-shaming if people criticized a guy wasn't okay with his partner owning or using a vibrator?

[Prajnaparamita]

2) The sex shaming masquerading as sex positivity in the article and some of the comments which laugh at, eye roll, condemn, or scoff at the LW for not being okay with porn.

Umm, hey, Wondering, if you have problems with the way people have been posting, I think it would be a lot more helpful to either address them to people, or to the mods. Personally when I post and people say things like "I don't like the tone some people have been talking about this with" and accusing them of other things, I feel really shut down, because I don't know what, if anything, I can do to change my behavior to make it more positive for others. I'm sorry if anything I have said has come off the wrong way to you, but people making blanket statements in general about what others have said makes me feel really shut down.

Thanks!