Splitting the bill on dates

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Post by jcorozza on Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:29 pm

I'm new to the forums, so apologies if this has come up before!

Anyways, I was out on a date yesterday with a guy I met online (I'm female, btw). We went for lunch, and when the bill came, he took it. I tried to hand him money, and he refused. This happened several times, and finally I just stuck my $10 on the table as a very large tip.

Recently, when I'm the one suggesting a first date activity, I'll suggest a coffee place, because I can get there early, buy my chai, read until the guy shows up, and avoid the entire check dance entirely.

When I talked to my sister about this, she told me that on a first date, I should let the guy pay - that he'll assume I'm not interested if I try to split the bill. She also mentioned that, well, I'd gotten all dressed up (I wore an outfit I like, but also one I wear to work regularly, so this required very little effort), done my hair (45 seconds to straighten my bangs, which I also do when I go out/to work), and drove down to meet him (we met in the middle), so it was okay for him to pay.

Now, I don't really mind if the guy offers. But when they refuse to take my money, it makes me horribly uncomfortable - and in this case, put a bit of a bad feeling on an otherwise good date. For one thing, it seems like a completely outdated practice, but it also feels like I'm not being treated like a capable adult. Yeah, I often make less money than the guy, but if I can afford to pay for lunch out with a friend now and then, why shouldn't I pay my way here?

I'm curious how others feel about this. I've heard guys who complain that they have to pay and make all the effort, but then I've also heard guys complain that the woman was emasculating him by trying to pay. Is there a graceful way to get the guy to accept me paying for myself?
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Post by waxingjaney on Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:49 pm

Some of them never will, and they're not good relationship material.
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Post by eselle28 on Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:59 pm

I don't think we've ever talked about it here before, though there's also no reason we can't have new discussions about topics people have discussed in the past, either!

As a matter of principle, I think couples who date should divide the costs equitably. For many, that means splitting the check or taking turns paying, though I think there are cases where one person has far more expendable income or prefers more expensive dates than the other where something other than an even split makes sense. I do think women do more beauty work on the whole, but I think expectations about that should be shifted as well.

As a practical matter, it doesn't always play out this way. I tend to be attracted to guys who care more than the usual amount about their hair and their clothes, so the beauty work isn't that skewed. I have sometimes found that some men insist on paying, though. My general routine is to offer and then to add, "No, really, I usually like to split the check," if it's declined. If a man offers twice, I let him pay rather than arguing about endlessly. If I want to see him again in the future, I can always make it up to him by paying for the next date (that's what my current boyfriend and I did when he was pretty clear he wanted to pay for our very expensive first date). It's more awkward if I don't want to see him again, but I feel like making a couple of sincere offers is sufficient to make sure that having the date paid for is a sincerely offered gift, even if it's a gift I don't particularly want. I would say that I don't care about the opinions of men who find an offer to pay emasculating, mostly because I wouldn't want to date such a man anyway. My decision is more based on a desire to avoid unnecessary conflict and a certain amount of acknowledgment that some men who want to pay are doing so in good faith because they haven't questioned the social norm at all or because they adhere to the theory that the person who asks should pay (which I don't agree with, but also think can be held by good dudes who mean well).

I think you've already found the best strategies, which are to avoid dates of any real expense or to order before the man arrives. If you drink, that's sometimes a way to make sure things are divided evenly, as it feels more natural for one person to get the first round and the other the second one than it does to split a check. Sometimes you can also just be very alert for the bill to come - I have done this on a couple of occasions where I never wanted to see the guy in question again and suspected he might use his paying as a source of pressure, but you have to be pretty fast for it to work.


Last edited by eselle28 on Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:04 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:02 pm

jcorozza wrote:I'm new to the forums, so apologies if this has come up before!

Anyways, I was out on a date yesterday with a guy I met online (I'm female, btw).  We went for lunch, and when the bill came, he took it. I tried to hand him money, and he refused.  This happened several times, and finally I just stuck my $10 on the table as a very large tip.  

I've only picked up the bill once with a female friend of mine because I was feeling generous and I was still feeling kinda shitty from not getting a second date with another girl. So I thought, "why not do something nice and treat a good friend to a badass noodle lunch?"

jcorozza wrote:
Recently, when I'm the one suggesting a first date activity, I'll suggest a coffee place, because I can get there early, buy my chai, read until the guy shows up, and avoid the entire check dance entirely.

I do the same thing when ordering beer, I'll order a beer at the bar because splitting a bill at the table becomes a logistical nightmare when you're out with 6+ friends and you're tryna figure out who had which beer and who ordered food. D:

jcorozza wrote:
When I talked to my sister about this, she told me that on a first date, I should let the guy pay - that he'll assume I'm not interested if I try to split the bill.

I'm not sure if I agree with this. Neutral If you try to split the bill, personally, *I* think you're being considerate. I'll be interested in you based on other things aside from trying to split the bill or not! Razz I don't care if you wanna split the bill, if you share a love of Zeppelin, craft beer and cheesesteaks, then you've gained 100+ lightside attractive points. :3

I can only speak for me, I dunno if other guys are the same as me, but as far as I know, I don't particularly care. If you wanna pay for your food, be my guest, it's the 2015, not 1955. Smile If you brought up the idea of splitting the bill, I'll be considerate as well and ask you if you're okay with splitting the bill, so long as we're all on the same page, everything is cool.

jcorozza wrote:
She also mentioned that, well, I'd gotten all dressed up (I wore an outfit I like, but also one I wear to work regularly, so this required very little effort), done my hair (45 seconds to straighten my bangs, which I also do when I go out/to work), and drove down to meet him (we met in the middle), so it was okay for him to pay.  

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything? Usually when you meet someone to go on a date with you try to put your best face forward. So, logically, you tend to try to dress nicely for your date and to, oh, I dunno, make yourself more attractive to your date too. I know I will and I have...

jcorozza wrote:
Now, I don't really mind if the guy offers.  But when they refuse to take my money, it makes me horribly uncomfortable - and in this case, put a bit of a bad feeling on an otherwise good date.  For one thing, it seems like a completely outdated practice, but it also feels like I'm not being treated like a capable adult.  Yeah, I often make less money than the guy, but if I can afford to pay for lunch out with a friend now and then, why shouldn't I pay my way here?

I'm curious how others feel about this.  I've heard guys who complain that they have to pay and make all the effort, but then I've also heard guys complain that the woman was emasculating him by trying to pay.  Is there a graceful way to get the guy to accept me paying for myself?

I agree, that it is an outdated practice. If you can afford it, then that's fine you can afford it, no big deal. I will admit that I understand the complaint about dudes putting in a majority of the work only to get diddly in return or if they find it exhausting, I get it. What I don't get is how is letting her pay for part of the bill emasculating? I would love it if those dudes would buck-up and let her do that. Hell, I'd love that, if anything it tells me that we're on the same page and we see each other as equals.

Oh well, looks like we still got a long ways to go though for that to be cool. :\

tl;dr my thoughts on this is, I don't mind splitting the bill.

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Post by jcorozza on Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:25 pm

On the plus side, I've never felt like the guys who've offered were doing so because they expected something from me.

What I do wonder is, is there any truth to what my sister says?  In my experience, the guys who either offer, but then aren't bothered if I pay my half, or haven't made a show of offering, tend to be the guys I'm most interested in continuing to date.   But she claims that when she's split a bill, the guy seems to lose interest, or does so because they think she is.  This might just be because she has different expectations, or the guys she goes out with do.  

So if there are guys out there who've been in this situation, do you assume that, if the woman wants to split the bill, she's not planning to see you again?

Something else that I think bothers me about the whole thing is that the topic of money makes me generally uncomfortable. My college boyfriend (the first guy I dated), on our first anniversary, did basically nothing. We went out for lunch - I made him a card and gave him a book of Latin poems (he was a Classics major, so he could theoretically read them) and concert tickets. When I got upset that he hadn't bothered, he pretty much went out and bought the things he thought I would want: roses (which were nice) and a gold locket, which he couldn't really afford. Since then, I've been really adamant about making it clear to guys I date that I'm not really interested in them buying me expensive things (though if they want to pick me up some juicy pear jelly beans while they're getting groceries, I won't object). So when, so early on, the guy wants to pay for everything, I wonder if this is a pattern that they will get into. I'm sure I'm over-thinking it, and if we go out again (gah, I hate the time in between date one and two - for some reason this gives me the most anxiety - should I be keeping up the conversation until the next date happens, or just wait until it's time to make plans again?), I think it's something I would want to bring up as a sore spot for me.

I...apparently have a lot of thoughts about this.
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Post by eselle28 on Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:48 pm

jcorozza wrote:
What I do wonder is, is there any truth to what my sister says?  In my experience, the guys who either offer, but then aren't bothered if I pay my half, or haven't made a show of offering, tend to be the guys I'm most interested in continuing to date.   But she claims that when she's split a bill, the guy seems to lose interest, or does so because they think she is.  This might just be because she has different expectations, or the guys she goes out with do.

I've sometimes seen what your sister describes, but it's definitely not universal. It sounds like the two of you may be dating different kinds of men. This is one of those areas where people's attitudes are all over the place, and I'm not sure if there's any answer that's guaranteed to please everyone you might possibly date. It seems like this might be an area to decide what works best for you and for the guys who most interest you and understand that occasionally you might send the wrong signal? 

So when, so early on, the guy wants to pay for everything, I wonder if this is a pattern that they will get into.  I'm sure I'm over-thinking it, and if we go out again (gah, I hate the time in between date one and two - for some reason this gives me the most anxiety - should I be keeping up the conversation until the next date happens, or just wait until it's time to make plans again?), I think it's something I would want to bring up as a sore spot for me.  

I don't tend to see it so much as a pattern someone could fall into if not given the right reinforcement as there being a group of people who use gifts as a way of expressing affection or interest, some of whom are doing it in healthy ways and some of whom are like your old boyfriend and are relying on gifts to compensate for a lack of something else you might want instead, like remembering a special day or selecting something inexpensive but thoughtful for you.

But that might not be an important distinction for you specifically. If you don't want to date someone who's prone to buying expensive gifts, I'm not sure it matters whether you're setting the right example for someone pretty malleable or screening out men who care a lot about giving gifts. Either way, you're achieving the same goal of avoiding partners who do something you dislike, after all!

(Oh, and I hear you about that time between date one and date two. It feels like there's more pressure to keep in touch, but in a lot of cases, I might not know the guy well enough to want to have extended conversations with him!)
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Post by Conreezy on Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:39 pm

So if there are guys out there who've been in this situation, do you assume that, if the woman wants to split the bill, she's not planning to see you again?

I absolutely don't think that. In fact, I at least want her to offer or I won't be calling again. I think it shows independence, confidence via flouting ridiculous social expectations, a sense of fair play, and a commitment to a good faith effort of getting to know me.

My wife and I went for ice cream as a first date. I paid for us both because it was 6 dollars total--no financial strain at all. Also, it was just impractical to make two transactions, and it would make me look Scroogelike to split that sort of amount. (Turns out she's the cheapskate after all, but that's neither here nor there). She offered to pay her half, though, which I found admirable in its own right, and it made me feel less like I was out with the kind of woman who just wants to eat for free. (And I wasn't fearing that because of MRA horror stories. The mutual acquaintance who set us up was very much that kind of person.)

Now, would I be willing to let a woman pay for me on a first date? No, but for different reasons now than back when I was young. Back then, I would have been afraid of appearing cheap, weak, and/or blacklisted with women after the date. Nowadays, I just think it's unfair for a getting-to-know-you meeting to put that burden on one person, social expectations be damned. But if she really really pressed it, I'd give in and deal with the possibilities that it might mean she likes me a lot or she was testing me--a test I would be glad to fail.

But, then, I'm not the kind of guy looking for a traditionally minded woman.

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything? Usually when you meet someone to go on a date with you try to put your best face forward. So, logically, you tend to try to dress nicely for your date and to, oh, I dunno, make yourself more attractive to your date too. I know I will and I have...

Most women spend a lot more money on products for improving appearance than most guys do, so they commit more money to a date before it even starts. This is true even with my obsession with high-end shoes and my wife's penchant for gym clothes.

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Post by reboot on Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:50 pm

I always offer to pay my share twice (assuming I was not the one given the check) in any social situation*. If they say no, then I ask to leave the tip at least.

*Unless it is with a man from a culture where having a woman pay is like cutting his balls off. There are quite a few places where even at friendly/business events where there is one man and 10+ women colleagues the man would feel emasculated if any of the women paid anything. I accidentally emasculated a few men until someone clued me in Embarassed
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Post by Guest on Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:53 pm

Conreezy wrote:
Most women spend a lot more money on products for improving appearance than most guys do, so they commit more money to a date before it even starts.  This is true even with my obsession with high-end shoes and my wife's penchant for gym clothes.

Ohh! I see what you mean, okay, I understand that. But I don't think that serves as a pretext too well.

Or I dunno, really wtf do I know? I could be wrong so, I'll just sit here in my wrongness being wrong. Razz

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Post by Conreezy on Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:00 pm

The Mikey wrote:
Conreezy wrote:
Most women spend a lot more money on products for improving appearance than most guys do, so they commit more money to a date before it even starts.  This is true even with my obsession with high-end shoes and my wife's penchant for gym clothes.

Ohh! I see what you mean, okay, I understand that. But I don't think that serves as a pretext too well.

Or I dunno, really wtf do I know? I could be wrong so, I'll just sit here in my wrongness being wrong. Razz

Yeah, me neither, to be honest. I understand that it's true in aggregate, but on a case by case basis? How would anyone really know?

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Post by Guest on Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:02 pm

Conreezy wrote:

Yeah, me neither, to be honest.  I understand that it's true in aggregate, but on a case by case basis?  How would anyone really know?

Just like the other excuses presented as to why a dude would or wouldn't pay, I think it's silly. But again, I could be wrong. Razz

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Post by InkAndComb on Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:19 am

I feel uncomfortable if the person I'm on a date with insists upon paying for a meal. I don't mind if it's something small, like if we get coffee (I'll assume, as others have suggested, I can get them next time).

But when it's dinner or lunch, I insist. I have had a few occasions where I felt there were...expectations? Hopes? Attached to the paying of the bill. My mom also cautioned me about this when I first started dating: "Boys will always offer to take the bill. Offer twice to split it, and let them take it otherwise. But never feel like you need to do anything because of that; they are not paying for YOU, they are paying for your food."

This is also why I (now) draw a line on what is first date material; had a friend take me to red lobster, get upset when I didn't want to kiss at the door. Obviously not good relationship material, but I'd rather avoid these situations to begin with, and thus, split the bill.
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Post by jcorozza on Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:13 am

I've also encountered women who have said that while they prefer to split, the man should always offer. The three guys I dated long term didn't, and I don't think that foreshadowed any sort of cheapness. I actually offered this up on Facebook for debate, on one of my very ardent feminist friends believed that it was still really important for men to offer, not because they should be paying for everything, but because it was an important gesture to make towards a woman to show that they are interested and care about her. And that sounds nice, but why, then, shouldn't women be doing the same? Why is it more important for the guy to be putting in that effort? Granted, I have a huge problem with guys on OKC who are too lazy to put in effort (like, I don't know, filling out a profile), but mutual, equal effort seems like good footing to start on, no?

But yeah, guys who are adamant about paying all the time aren't going to be the guys for me. It's the middle ground ones that give me pause.

Oh, and fun fact I found out from my FB post: according to etiquette, anyone who invites anyone anywhere is required to offer to pay, even if that offer is frequently refused. So if you invite your friend to a They Might Be Giants concert, you're supposed to offer to buy their ticket.
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Post by Guest on Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:04 am

My rule tends to be that whoever asks pays, particularly if they also choose the venue. I dislike splitting checks, but I balance that out by a rough alternation of payment.

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Post by Caffeinated on Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:39 pm

Something I found worked pretty well, in addition to the get there first and buy my own coffee on an initial coffee date thing, was to plan a date that included two components, and one person pay for each. Specifically, like dinner and some kind of show/movie/concert/whatever. I'd buy the tickets to the entertainment ahead of time, and then my date could pay the check at dinner, and voila things are split. This can also work well when there's a big income difference, with the person with the smaller income springing for the less expensive part of the date. That way everyone is still making a gesture of interest and caring toward the other, but avoiding some awkwardness around money. Also, no annoying the server with splitting the check.
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Post by PintsizeBro on Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:21 pm

The stereotype I've absorbed that applies to both women and men, is that people who offer to split the bill are just offering to be polite and don't actually mean it.

A nastier, and not coincidentally, gendered version of this is that a woman who offers to split the bill on a date is giving the man a test, and if he agrees to split the bill she will lose interest in him. This actually happened to me once, but I don't entirely blame the girl as we were both teenagers at the time and she was just as awkward and confused about how dating worked as I was.

But if a grown-ass adult believes either side of the stereotype, they're probably someone you don't want to date.

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Post by InkAndComb on Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:39 pm

PintsizeBro wrote:The stereotype I've absorbed that applies to both women and men, is that people who offer to split the bill are just offering to be polite and don't actually mean it.

A nastier, and not coincidentally, gendered version of this is that a woman who offers to split the bill on a date is giving the man a test, and if he agrees to split the bill she will lose interest in him. This actually happened to me once, but I don't entirely blame the girl as we were both teenagers at the time and she was just as awkward and confused about how dating worked as I was.

But if a grown-ass adult believes either side of the stereotype, they're probably someone you don't want to date.

I've also heard this as well; it made me really panicky when I first had money and wanted to spend it. There is nothing more awkward than two shy and geeky teens trying to figure out the most polite way to pay ,and also if the other person is secretly doing it as a test and also maybe you are failing said test and GOSH do better at your respective gender roles!

I've seen this as an example of a "sh*t test" on TRP resources and PUA as well. Are both of these stereotypes/hidden agenda type conclusions from the same generations? I'm wondering if these hold up to out of the U.S. standards as well (both my parents are british and I live in the midwest, so there is definitely courtesy-coding for paying)
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Post by eselle28 on Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:43 pm

PintsizeBro wrote:The stereotype I've absorbed that applies to both women and men, is that people who offer to split the bill are just offering to be polite and don't actually mean it.

A nastier, and not coincidentally, gendered version of this is that a woman who offers to split the bill on a date is giving the man a test, and if he agrees to split the bill she will lose interest in him. This actually happened to me once, but I don't entirely blame the girl as we were both teenagers at the time and she was just as awkward and confused about how dating worked as I was.

But if a grown-ass adult believes either side of the stereotype, they're probably someone you don't want to date.

This is absolutely a stereotype that exists. I think it says something that the women here who've said they don't absolutely insist on splitting the check are mostly asking twice, rather than once or five times. There are some women out there who will offer to pay but who don't really mean it, and there are some men who assume that the first offer will probably be insincere.
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Post by reboundstudent on Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:11 pm

I'm one of those women that always insisted on paying, sometimes to the point of being pushy or demanding, because I was so terrified that the guy was giving me a "gold-digger" test.

Frequently online and offline, I hear geeky/nerdy guys lament that they are betas or that women are only after them for their money, a free meal, and likewise. Since I asked out exclusively geeky men, I was always terrified of unwittingly landing in that role, so I tried very hard to compensate in the other direction.

The weird thing was, 9 out of 10 times, I made more money than the guy, or we were at equal pay. Even weirder, the guys would usually meet my insistence with stubbornness of their own. I recall one date a few years ago, I and a guy stood there arguing in front of the cash register (me trying to pay while he insisted he would) for at least a few minutes, probably mortifying the poor girl at the counter and holding everyone up. I even dialed it back to just insisting I pay for my own food, but he kept adamantly insisting he pay for it all.... even though he was a poor student and I had a full-time job.

How to split the bill has to be one of the top 3 things I hate most about dating. It's like a condescended, toxic-filled hard candy of gender expectations, social awkwardness, and mixed signals all rolled into one.
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Post by fakely mctest on Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:57 pm

eselle28 wrote:
jcorozza wrote:
What I do wonder is, is there any truth to what my sister says?  In my experience, the guys who either offer, but then aren't bothered if I pay my half, or haven't made a show of offering, tend to be the guys I'm most interested in continuing to date.   But she claims that when she's split a bill, the guy seems to lose interest, or does so because they think she is.  This might just be because she has different expectations, or the guys she goes out with do.

I've sometimes seen what your sister describes, but it's definitely not universal. It sounds like the two of you may be dating different kinds of men. This is one of those areas where people's attitudes are all over the place, and I'm not sure if there's any answer that's guaranteed to please everyone you might possibly date. It seems like this might be an area to decide what works best for you and for the guys who most interest you and understand that occasionally you might send the wrong signal?

I agree 100% with eselle. Just find your own level of comfort and stick with it. Guys who object that strongly to your behavior around this issue in particular or interpret it as some sort of shit test are likely not going to be terribly compatible in other ways as well. Frankly, people who structure their behavior according to the delicate precepts of anxious masculinity will always find something objectionable about either side of the issue. I once dated a guy who, when we broke up, said he felt emasculated because I paid for the one really nice dinner we'd gone out to (the restaurant was my idea and I like a nice dinner every so often). Other things that made him feel emasculated: that I could have an informed conversation with a sommelier (he wasn't a wine guy), that I knew how to drive a car with a manual transmission and he didn't.

Like a bunch of people have said, I do the two offers and then let it drop and I sincerely thank the person. I just assume that the person wants to do me a courtesy. If you like the person and want to see them again, a heartfelt thank you and something along the lines of, "I'll get the next one," should be more than adequate to indicate that you'd like to see them again. If you don't want to see them again, a thank you works just fine.

Your question does make me think of a side issue though: if this is something your sister brings up oftenish maybe it's time to nip it in the bud? I've found that even seemingly-harmless "haha UR doing dating wrong" comments from a person tend to irk over time. If you're both dating the people you want to date then it shouldn't matter that your philosophy of splitting the check is different, no?

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Post by jcorozza on Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:16 pm

Oh, we definitely have different approached (though, ultimately, I'm not sure if our taste is that different). Unfortunately, my close friends seem to all be either: happily married to their first and only boyfriend, terrible at dating, or have done no dating (I'm 28, so it's odd to me that of all my friends, in terms of "dating" where it means going out on a bunch of first dates, I'm the most experienced?), so there aren't a lot of places to turn for advice/perspective on these kinds of things.

Yeah, there is sometimes an implied "you're dating wrong" from her - I'm not even sure why I listen to it, really. I don't want my relationships to look like most of hers - she seems jump from relationship to relationship lately, and seems to go for the guys with the most unresolved issues, and it always blows up in both of their faces. I tend to not tell her much about my dates, or ask about hers, because I don't really want to compare (or tell her some of the things I think about her methods). But sometimes it's unavoidable, what with the whole being related thing.
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Post by nearly_takuan on Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:30 am

Caffeinated wrote:Something I found worked pretty well, in addition to the get there first and buy my own coffee on an initial coffee date thing, was to plan a date that included two components, and one person pay for each. Specifically, like dinner and some kind of show/movie/concert/whatever. I'd buy the tickets to the entertainment ahead of time, and then my date could pay the check at dinner, and voila things are split. This can also work well when there's a big income difference, with the person with the smaller income springing for the less expensive part of the date. That way everyone is still making a gesture of interest and caring toward the other, but avoiding some awkwardness around money. Also, no annoying the server with splitting the check.
This. And if it's only a first date anyway, to me it seems the natural thing to do is to choose a low-cost venue in the first place. Another option, if you want an excuse to take the whole bill regardless, would be to bring a Groupon or something along those lines, so that it's technically smarter overall if you and you alone are paying.

One of the effects of people walking away before a first date materializes is that I've also spent a lot of time contemplating the ways people might want to walk away during said date. Casual hangouts, coffee shops, snack bars, sushi tracks, and other small- or gradual-portion restaurants seem like optimal choices. (They're also pretty much the only choices I can think of anyway, aside from obviously actual bars and strip clubs.)

I will cop to having a preference toward paying for things, especially when my sister or mom is involved (dad's similar attitudes make me think he may be responsible for this; his stubbornness about it makes me not try it with him). This can be mitigated with excuses/justifications that make it seem like a one-time thing or by establishing patterns that I can predict. For example, I would have objected pretty strongly to any of my friends paying for my rather inordinately large order of sushi, especially since nobody else ate anywhere near that much and everyone else was splitting the check (hard to gauge in hindsight how much importance I put on her gender), but an accumulation of other factors including my thence-unemployment and the fact that it was my birthday made it easier for me not to protest too strongly. Razz

On the other hand, "emasculated" isn't really the term I would use for what I think when people offer to pay. It's "embarrassed" at worst, but I always assume the other party is just trying to be nice.

Obviously several of these things are just functions of the way my own brain works and not necessarily things you could extrapolate to other dudes even if you wanted to. (One of a few reasons I've put off answering, but who knows.)
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Post by jcorozza on Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:18 am

nearly_takuan wrote:

They're also pretty much the only choices I can think of anyway, aside from obviously actual bars and strip clubs.


On the other hand, "emasculated" isn't really the term I would use for what I think when people offer to pay. It's "embarrassed" at worst, but I always assume the other party is just trying to be nice.


Do people go on dates in strip clubs? That just seems to be asking for trouble!

I think this is true for a lot of guys, the embarrassment thing, but I feel this way when people offer to pay for me, too - like I'm a child who isn't capable of paying for my own things.  I just find it frustrating that they guy's embarrassment trumps mine.
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Post by KMR on Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:10 am

Rather than having a server split the check, the way I handle splitting the costs of a meal is to let the guy pay the entire bill with his credit card, but offer to give him the approximate cost of my share in cash. Since the guy will generally grab the bill right away or it's given to him by default, I will just reach for my purse and ask, "How much do I owe for my share?" while he's examining the check. Then he'll either give me a value of how much I owe him (which I've noticed tends to be rounded down a bit at times) or he'll say, "Don't worry about it" and try to pay himself. At that point, I'll say "Are you sure?" and offer again, but if he still insists, I just drop it and thank him. If there are subsequent dates, I'll offer to pay for the next meal or activity.
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Post by nearly_takuan on Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:15 am

Exactly why insisting so stubbornly is a shitty thing to do, and why planning ways around that conflict only makes sense.

As for strip clubs, beats me. Wouldn't surprise me too much, though. "Bars and strip clubs" also pretty much enumerates all the places you could go to do things without children being underfoot (which a lot of people also seem to care pretty strongly about) so....
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