Re: Having a hard time meeting women who are attracted to me [adv]

[waxingjaney]

Or like with intern girls, every time id hug them Id also pick them up at the same time, literally.

Don't do that. They're (almost) grown-ass adults.

[Guest]

When I say "social rules," I mean things like how in OLD, it's the norm to simply not respond to someone if you're not interested, or stop replying without warning to someone you've started talking to but whom you're no longer interested in. (And we hear this applied a lot to women on OLD, because they tend to be the recipients of messages more often than men are, but men do this too.) Being aware of this as a social norm of OLD can help you not take it so personally when it happens to you.

Another social rule is in regards to the way that conversations are started on OLD, which is different from cold-approaching IRL. When you approach someone in person, you may know nothing about them, so it's common to just say hi, introduce yourself, and work from there. Online, you have a lot of information available about the person you're messaging, so not only do you have many options for conversation starters, but you're expected to use them to establish points of commonality and ask questions right away. You already know and do this, but a lot of people who use OLD think they can just treat it the same way they do face-to-face interactions and just say hi in their initial messages, expecting a friendly hi back before an actual conversation gets started. Just another example of how not knowing that some of the social norms may differ between OLD and face-to-face interactions can lead to struggles.

With regard to the advantages/disadvantages of OLD, here are just a few I thought of so far. I'll break them down into what it is that OLD offers, how that aspect can provide a benefit and to whom, and how that aspect can have potential downsides as well. (Spoilered for length.)

Spoiler:

Noted. I don't have much else to add to this or reply to because you nailed it right on the head. I also already do the things you noted as everyone knows. So, I get most of the OLD nuances. I thought there was something new I didn't know about. You're also correct in that my sillyhead has a tendency to attach itself maybe too easy sometimes, goddamn you oneitis!! Any ideas how to get rid of that sort of behavior?

I will say that rejection is the most frustrating thing to deal with because then I don't wanna do it anymore and it stops being fun. So you're right about it being discouraging, why do you think I keep going off and on? That silent rejection eats at my soul every fucking time.

The reason I ended up with OLD after months of internal debate was because, well, I am indeed an introvert and I won't go out to bars and junk by myself. Noooo way in hell will I make a fool outta myself that way unless I was with other people, ironically I'm okay with going to see movies alone.

I'll add to this that sometimes knowing this much leads people to reject people they might otherwise like.  I've seen people on this board talk about OLD conversations and say things like, "But he was only a 68% match, so I didn't really follow up," or "She seemed nice and a lot of fun, but she wasn't really into the kinds of games I like."

Myself included, I thought she was cool and seemed like someone I could get along with but that gorram match percentage said otherwise. :\ Ironically, this was the only person to reply to me.

There are a lot of really fantastic couples without a lot of overlap in interests.  They have some things they share, and some things they don't.  Maybe she's an outdoorsy type, and you hate sky, but she has other hiking people, and you can play Call of Duty while she's out.  That evening, you guys laugh about things, and appreciate each other's joy and enthusiasm, and then cuddle in front of a fire with pizza -- hers pepperoni with a glass of merlot and yours plain cheese with diet coke.

I mean, OKC has questions like "if you found a spider, would you catch it, kill it, ignore it, or ask for help?"  Your answer on that affects your match percentage!  I mean, if someone's a 12, with an enemy rating of 72%, they're probably not for you.  But perfect synchronicity does not necessarily a better relationship make.

I don't mind having overlapping interests. Just means that we have things we like if the need or want to be apart from each other ever arises. And I would in fact love a pizza fire cuddle, except I'd be stealing her pepperoni and I'd be drinking a pilsner (hey, beer/food pairings). ;D

And yes, the really low match ratings like 12% match/72% enemy though are definite no go's.

EDIT: If you wanna have another look at my profile, here it is: http://www.okcupid.com/profile/MikeyWithNoName

[Guest]

Don't do that. They're (almost) grown-ass adults.

See how dumb am I am!?


EDIT: janey, I'm diggin that Akira avatar, that's one of my favorite movies of all time. :3

[jcorozza]

Which sucks because I found some GREAT matches that are 90% and up, but haven't been online in a year.

If you don't include them in your search parameters, you won't even have to see their profiles and be tortured by them.

I think we're talking about different things here.  I mean that it may be helpful for you to delineate that X is what you want to do

See, I don't fully understand since I say flat out that I'm going to school to be a filmmaker (yet my degree is in audio, but that's neither here nor there since I can do both). The other things are indeed hobbies but also possible job/career options. I thought it was good to not out my eggs all in one basket? I thought it was good to have options?

Options are good, but it might be a bit much to share them all in your profile - it can seem unfocused and overwhelming. Usually one or two sentences about career stuff is enough for an intro - you can always talk more about it if the other person is curious.

That's what I'm thinking. I'm wondering why some people make certain demands when they themselves can't play ball either. Trust me, I've seen some equally awful profile amidst the many diamonds. So yeah, I'm wondering WTF people are doin in college when they can be pretty dumb.

Well, you don't really know who is and isn't making those demands - maybe the ones who are dumb as rocks aren't, but they're the ones you're not interested in. Do most of the women you've messaged have 4 year degrees? It might be useful to pick out 2 or 3 profiles that really appeal to you, and see if there's any way to appeal more to their "types" in ways that don't mean changing your personality.

Well yeah, I kinda do talk about my nerdy pursuits. Shit, if you look in my other photos you'll see my other hobbies & junk. Plus, art is not easy nor is filmmaking or audio production/engineering. I also put down that I play D&D which for some is a mind-boggling game (or woman repellant for others maybe). That and football is more of a leisure activity.

Discussing your nerdy pursuits isn't quite the same as showing off intellect. For one, not everyone who has nerdy hobbies is smart - I've seen plenty of guys who love comics or video games or D&D but can't put a sentence together. I don't think any of those things are easy, either, but they're typically aligned with creative/artistic rather than intellectual. If you're specifically looking for smart women, it might be in your best interest to tone down the football stuff - not leave it out completely, but just give it less space than your other hobbies/interests.

Warner approaches, you think so? Because I asked out the other two interns who I worked with for four or so months, neither wanted anything to do with me in that regard. One was seeing someone apparently and the other said she wasn't in a place to be dating anyone. Okay, that's fine. Sure it hurt my feelings, but it didn't sting as bad as I anticipated. I've done tabletop RPG's meetups and really, there's a real lack of women in those circles. D: And yes, warmer approaches are a lot of work add the fact that I'm not sure WHEN or how soon to ask anyone out.

For example the interns I kinda fucked up and asked them out AFTER our internship was done. But I did that so it wouldn't get awkward for them being around me. So I'm still stuck even on the warm approach. Though when I asked out Anxiety Girl last year, that was after maybe a month of talking with her and geeking out over tumblr and goofy jokes.

And just so I dont forget, I'm a patient man, I'm just tired of waiting. Ohhh, so fuckin' tired, I wait, cultivate, and nurture my friendship and break the touch barrier (very light touching like gentle tickling or tummy poke). Or like with intern girls, every time id hug them Id also pick them up at the same time, literally.

In general, asking out coworkers is going to be awkward - I think you did the right thing by asking them out at the end of the job. I don't think two women who didn't want to date you is enough of a sample to say that the warm approach doesn't work for you - especially since you may have made them uncomfortable previously with the hugging/picking them up thing. Not everyone is going to like everyone back, in fact, more often than not, it won't be mutual. I'd say in general, though, while asking women out as soon as you meet them isn't going to work great for a warm approach, waiting until your relationship has reached tickling (are there people who actually like this? Being tickled is like torture for me) might be too late - are they poking and tickling back, or is it all on your end?

Who's Anxiety Girl? God, I hope she's a superhero, and that her graphic novel is coming out soon, because I'd like to read about that hero.

[Caffeinated]

It might be useful to pick out 2 or 3 profiles that really appeal to you, and see if there's any way to appeal more to their "types" in ways that don't mean changing your personality.

This right here, this is gold. Figuring out how to market yourself to the "types" you're interested in is the most effective thing you can do in OLD (possibly also in offline pursuit of dating as well). Trying to appeal generically to all the types often means not really striking a spark with any of them. Focusing in on a narrower set and highlighting the aspects of your personality/lifestyle/looks/etc that appeal to that set is the way to set yourself up to create better matches.

[Guest]

Noted. I don't have much else to add to this or reply to because you nailed it right on the head. I also already do the things you noted as everyone knows. So, I get most of the OLD nuances. I thought there was something new I didn't know about. You're also correct in that my sillyhead has a tendency to attach itself maybe too easy sometimes, goddamn you oneitis!! Any ideas how to get rid of that sort of behavior?

Message women. Message /lots/ of women. Like 10-15 a night, not 1-2. (And hide them after you've sent the initial message, so that you don't accidentally send them another one a week later.) You'll forget specifically who you've sent messages to (another reason for the hiding), so no chance to get particularly attached. And if one of them responds, you can take another look at her profile to get a better feel for her.

Even the handsome, enjobbed, well-spoken men I've gone out with on OKC and spoken with about strategies said it generally takes at least 10-15 messages to get one response, so poring over profiles for half an hour or an hour before you send a message isn't the way to go. DNL emphasizes this, too.

[Guest]

Options are good, but it might be a bit much to share them all in your profile - it can seem unfocused and overwhelming.  Usually one or two sentences about career stuff is enough for an intro - you can always talk more about it if the other person is curious.

Well, I amended that in my profile, I'm not sure if you were able to see that. D:

Well, you don't really know who is and isn't making those demands - maybe the ones who are dumb as rocks aren't, but they're the ones you're not interested in. Do most of the women you've messaged have 4 year degrees?  It might be useful to pick out 2 or 3 profiles that really appeal to you, and see if there's any way to appeal more to their "types" in ways that don't mean changing your personality.  

I don't know, they don't all say if they do or don't. Some say they have their BA/BS in $field which is cool to hear. Either way I don't care if they have a 4-year degree or not, so long as they're not dumb as rocks or a dull person, I think they'll be okay. Besides I usually find something interesting about a person.

Discussing your nerdy pursuits isn't quite the same as showing off intellect.  For one, not everyone who has nerdy hobbies is smart - I've seen plenty of guys who love comics or video games or D&D but can't put a sentence together.  I don't think any of those things are easy, either, but they're typically aligned with creative/artistic rather than intellectual.  If you're specifically looking for smart women, it might be in your best interest to tone down the football stuff - not leave it out completely, but just give it less space than your other hobbies/interests.  

I tried to remedy that in my profile too. I'm not sure if that's what you're thinking, but that's the best I could think of. I can indeed be creative/artistic and an intellectual. For goodness' sake, look at the other pics in my profile!

In general, asking out coworkers is going to be awkward - I think you did the right thing by asking them out at the end of the job.  I don't think two women who didn't want to date you is enough of a sample to say that the warm approach doesn't work for you - especially since you may have made them uncomfortable previously with the hugging/picking them up thing.

Well, I dunno. They seemed okay with it, but I know, I'm not them, I could be wrong. I understand if that was a mistake on my end. The only reason I'm not too sure if I did make them uncomfortable is because, well, they still hug/initiate hugs.   In general, I'm not sure if the warm approach works for me because, most of the young women I've asked out HAVE indeed been acquaintances/friends I found attractive. I've actually asked out 12-ish (maybe a few more I'm forgetting) different women, all of them I knew personally and each of those endeavors failed miserably.

 Not everyone is going to like everyone back, in fact, more often than not, it won't be mutual.  I'd say in general, though, while asking women out as soon as you meet them isn't going to work great for a warm approach, waiting until your relationship has reached tickling (are there people who actually like this?  Being tickled is like torture for me) might be too late - are they poking and tickling back, or is it all on your end?

Well no shit not everyone is going to like everyone back. Nobody likes me! So, that's where it gets complicated, I simply don't know the timeline, if I'm physically attracted to someone or otherwise, I want to ask them out. Believe me, I do! But it doesn't seem appropriate, not when I don't know them much which is the problem I have with cold approaching.

For example, there's this girl who's the daughter of an coordinator for an adjacent lab. The daughter works on the floor above our lab and I'll see her every now and again, and dear lard is she absolutely adorable. The only reason that I haven't asked her out is because the coordinator is her mom and knows one of my two bosses; so I'm scared that if the coordinator gets wind of my asking her daughter out, that she will tell my boss. But then again, the coordinator is cool with me and knows I'm a good kid.

And eh, it's more like a very soft, very gentle tummy poke. And some of it on my end and some I get back too. But I guess that would be too late, but I mean, wasn't I supposed to break the "touch-barrier"?

Who's Anxiety Girl?  God, I hope she's a superhero, and that her graphic novel is coming out soon, because I'd like to read about that hero.

Mind the gif, that actually did make me laugh pretty hard. No, she's not a super hero, that's just a name I give to somebody I went on a date with early last summer. It's also because when I was driving with her to the street fair we were talking a lot about different things and she explained to me how she had real bad social anxiety and all kinds of other neat stuff that just made me wanna hug her like her more. Unfortunately, didn't work out and a second date didn't materialize. I think you can imagine how *I* felt.

I can laugh about it now because it's almost been a year since then and I just saw her this past week for the first time in 10 months.

This right here, this is gold. Figuring out how to market yourself to the "types" you're interested in is the most effective thing you can do in OLD (possibly also in offline pursuit of dating as well). Trying to appeal generically to all the types often means not really striking a spark with any of them. Focusing in on a narrower set and highlighting the aspects of your personality/lifestyle/looks/etc that appeal to that set is the way to set yourself up to create better matches.

I haven't the slightest idea how to market anything let alone the types of women I'm interested in. I've said countless times before, I like a wide variety of women, so long as they're not evil or jerks to my friends and family, I don't care. The problem I see with focusing on a narrower set though is, I don't know what these women like without a questionnaire. Some of the profiles I've seen simply do not specify what kinds of dudes they're looking for. There have been that said the dude needs to be over 6ft., which I'm not, sadly, I'm one inch short of the 6ft mark. There's not much I can do about that. D:

Then there's others that say they dig Netflix and junk like that, well, just so happens that I do too. So I appeal to that, or am I doing that wrong too?

But what do you mean highlighting aspects of my personality/lifestyle/looks/etc.? I don't want to appear boastful or cringey...

Message women. Message /lots/ of women. Like 10-15 a night, not 1-2. (And hide them after you've sent the initial message, so that you don't accidentally send them another one a week later.) You'll forget specifically who you've sent messages to (another reason for the hiding), so no chance to get particularly attached. And if one of them responds, you can take another look at her profile to get a better feel for her.

Even the handsome, enjobbed, well-spoken men I've gone out with on OKC and spoken with about strategies said it generally takes at least 10-15 messages to get one response, so poring over profiles for half an hour or an hour before you send a message isn't the way to go. DNL emphasizes this, too.

10 to 15 a night? That's insane. It takes a bit to write a personalized message to one woman (for me) and afterwards my brain feels exhausted from sending out 3 or 4 personalized and individual messages. I can only imagine it taking an eternity to message 10 to 15. D:

EDIT: Oh, and about oneitis and bullshit like that, I meant how do I get rid of that sort of thinking in general? Not just on OLD because I can easily delete the messages I've sent them and the ones they sent me.

[jcorozza]

I don't know, they don't all say if they do or don't. Some say they have their BA/BS in $field which is cool to hear. Either way I don't care if they have a 4-year degree or not, so long as they're not dumb as rocks or a dull person, I think they'll be okay. Besides I usually find something interesting about a person.

I get that YOU don't care either way, but since the women you're interested in might, it's good to pay attention to trends in the women you end up messaging. You have to put yourself into their shoes a bit.

I tried to remedy that in my profile too. I'm not sure if that's what you're thinking, but that's the best I could think of. I can indeed be creative/artistic and an intellectual. For goodness' sake, look at the other pics in my profile!

I haven't looked since the other thread, since I though you'd deleted it. But here's the thing with the pictures - most people aren't going to look beyond your first three pictures if they aren't interested in your profile. They already know what you look like, so unless they're really curious and want to know more, they aren't going to bother with that.

Well, I dunno. They seemed okay with it, but I know, I'm not them, I could be wrong. I understand if that was a mistake on my end. The only reason I'm not too sure if I did make them uncomfortable is because, well, they still hug/initiate hugs.   In general, I'm not sure if the warm approach works for me because, most of the young women I've asked out HAVE indeed been acquaintances/friends I found attractive. I've actually asked out 12-ish (maybe a few more I'm forgetting) different women, all of them I knew personally and each of those endeavors failed miserably.

If they're also initiating back, it sounds like those women are fine with it. It's a good idea to check in with them the first time you do it, and to continue to read their reactions/body language. Some women may be totally cool with it most of the time, but not another.

I'm curious though - how soon after you meet someone do you want to ask them out? What makes that "romantic partner" button click in your brain?

 
Well no shit not everyone is going to like everyone back. Nobody likes me! So, that's where it gets complicated, I simply don't know the timeline, if I'm physically attracted to someone or otherwise, I want to ask them out. Believe me, I do! But it doesn't seem appropriate, not when I don't know them much which is the problem I have with cold approaching.

For example, there's this girl who's the daughter of an coordinator for an adjacent lab. The daughter works on the floor above our lab and I'll see her every now and again, and dear lard is she absolutely adorable. The only reason that I haven't asked her out is because the coordinator is her mom and knows one of my two bosses; so I'm scared that if the coordinator gets wind of my asking her daughter out, that she will tell my boss. But then again, the coordinator is cool with me and knows I'm a good kid.

And eh, it's more like a very soft, very gentle tummy poke. And some of it on my end and some I get back too. But I guess that would be too late, but I mean, wasn't I supposed to break the "touch-barrier"?

I know you're saying it jokingly, but this is another example of that black and white thinking. You know that those 12 women don't like you, but you don't know that about...well, all other women. There might be women who like you who aren't on your radar, or don't interest you. Or you might be in a setting that isn't putting you with women who would be interested (you've mentioned women at work, but are there women in your classes? I know that for me, that's where I developed a lot of my "intellectual crushes")

Personally, I don't think the touch barrier is universal. Outside of stuff like hugs, handshakes, and high fives, I don't think I'd like it if guys did this to me before we'd even been on a date, or the idea of dating was brought up. And only one guy I went on a first date with made any move towards physical contact, and that was to hold my hand on a very crowded subway that was clearly making me anxious. Before that happened, though, he'd made a pretty obvious attempt to end the date, but we realized we needed to take the same subway, so it came off as a really mixed signal and was confusing rather than appealing.

Something else to keep in mind is that, if you're already a pretty touch-y person, women might not know that this is you expressing interest, rather than just something you do with friends.

Mind the gif, that actually did make me laugh pretty hard. No, she's not a super hero, that's just a name I give to somebody I went on a date with early last summer. It's also because when I was driving with her to the street fair we were talking a lot about different things and she explained to me how she had real bad social anxiety and all kinds of other neat stuff that just made me wanna hug her like her more. Unfortunately, didn't work out and a second date didn't materialize. I think you can imagine how *I* felt.

I can laugh about it now because it's almost been a year since then and I just saw her this past week for the first time in 10 months.

Okay, see, here's proof that someone HAS been interested - she agreed to go on a first date with you. Did she tell you why she didn't want a second? Is it possible that with all of her social anxiety, she was overwhelmed? It might not have anything to do with you, specifically.

I haven't the slightest idea how to market anything let alone the types of women I'm interested in. I've said countless times before, I like a wide variety of women, so long as they're not evil or jerks to my friends and family, I don't care. The problem I see with focusing on a narrower set though is, I don't know what these women like without a questionnaire. Some of the profiles I've seen simply do not specify what kinds of dudes they're looking for. There have been that said the dude needs to be over 6ft., which I'm not, sadly, I'm one inch short of the 6ft mark. There's not much I can do about that. D:

I bet that the women who spark your interest have more in common than you realize. Are you interested in all body types/races? Women who are very Christian? Seriously, pick out three, and post them here, and maybe we can help you with this. Also, who are these women who give two shits about height? I've never met any of them.

Oh, and a good rule of thumb is that most women are going to like guys who are similar to them - if they come off as intelligent, they are likely looking for an intelligent guy. There are ways to figure this out without asking them things. Looking at their match questions, though, is essentially looking at a questionnaire that they've already filled out!

Then there's others that say they dig Netflix and junk like that, well, just so happens that I do too. So I appeal to that, or am I doing that wrong too?

But what do you mean highlighting aspects of my personality/lifestyle/looks/etc.? I don't want to appear boastful or cringey...

Most people like Netflix. Although, when someone says in their profile that they don't like to watch TV, I move on, because that person is probably going to judge me when I'm marathoning Once Upon A Time the next time I'm home sick. Or just, home. But that's a pretty generic interest (kind of like, "grabbing drinks with friends"), so it's not going to make you stand out if that's why you message them.

10 to 15 a night? That's insane. It takes a bit to write a personalized message to one woman (for me) and afterwards my brain feels exhausted from sending out 3 or 4 personalized and individual messages. I can only imagine it taking an eternity to message 10 to 15. D:

EDIT: Oh, and about oneitis and bullshit like that, I meant how do I get rid of that sort of thinking in general? Not just on OLD because I can easily delete the messages I've sent them and the ones they sent me.

5-10's probably a good number - maybe best for you to not to it all at once, and do one or two on a work break, that kind of thing. But it sounds like you're investing a lot of time with each person, and while reading their profile is important, if you're agonizing this much over each message, then you're, well, doing it wrong.

As for the Oneitis thing, doesn't Doc have some advice for this?

[Enail]

I'll split this off into a new thread, since the original topic was pretty much the OP's situation.

EDIT: The general thread on screening for educational achievement is here.

[Guest]

I haven't looked since the other thread, since I though you'd deleted it.  But here's the thing with the pictures - most people aren't going to look beyond your first three pictures if they aren't interested in your profile.  They already know what you look like, so unless they're really curious and want to know more, they aren't going to bother with that.

Well I re-enabled so I could show you some of the changes and messages I had put up. I also deleted the other album I had since it's an exercise in futility as well.

So, here it is again: http://www.okcupid.com/profile/MikeyWithNoName

If they're also initiating back, it sounds like those women are fine with it.  It's a good idea to check in with them the first time you do it, and to continue to read their reactions/body language.  Some women may be totally cool with it most of the time, but not another.

I, personally, don't break the touch barrier until I'm comfortable touching them too. Usually it's a very playful touch or poke, for example I hung out with a co-worker last November (strictly platonic because we had a rapport and she was leaving back to Tennessee) and I took her to get noodles with me and she's a shy kid too, she didn't wanna bother the waiters to get a little to-go box. So I teased her a little bit and gently & playfully poking her arm as she laughed.

I'm curious though - how soon after you meet someone do you want to ask them out?  What makes that "romantic partner" button click in your brain?

How soon after I meet someone do I want to ask someone out? Depends, a lot of times I wanna do it right away, like if I had any more brass/courage/balls I'd ask them out the same day, but I think that's too soon/hasty.

And what makes the "romantic partner"-light turn on? Also depends. For example with Anxiety girl, she was a huge sci-fi fanatic and big on classic rock bands, same as me, she wasn't as much into vidya, but that was good enough for me. Or the ladies who interned with me, both of them were filmmakers, just like me, both of them liked to drink also like me and liked watch older classic movies much like me as well. Or one girl from church, she was a little different, she was a Christian Catholic and worked at a women's center on her university's campus, before that she had gone on mission in Africa and some other stuff that really drew me in (also, she's fellow golden retriever owner to boot :3). There was one girl in an English class who was a swimmer, same as me (though at the time I sucked at it ) and I thought her antics were pretty silly and she herself was pretty funny.

Many times, I try to find a lot of common ground with the women I'd want to date, other -- much rarer -- times Little Mikey is making decisions (he doesn't think very thoroughly), so mistakes are made sometimes as well. But I also figure that that's what the first date is all about figuring out what you two have in common if these commonalities aren't found when hanging out one-on-one or in a group.

I know you're saying it jokingly, but this is another example of that black and white thinking.  You know that those 12 women don't like you, but you don't know that about...well, all other women.  There might be women who like you who aren't on your radar, or don't interest you.  Or you might be in a setting that isn't putting you with women who would be interested (you've mentioned women at work, but are there women in your classes?  I know that for me, that's where I developed a lot of my "intellectual crushes")

Correct, it is very black & white, or at OTG put it, "absolutist". That's definitely I have a problem sometimes, but here's the thing, I don't know that they don't like me either. So, I tend to guess that chances are more than likely that they probably aren't into me anyway, so I let it go. I'm sure there may be women who are into me, where are they? I don't know who or where they are. D:

Personally, I don't think the touch barrier is universal.  Outside of stuff like hugs, handshakes, and high fives, I don't think I'd like it if guys did this to me before we'd even been on a date, or the idea of dating was brought up.  And only one guy I went on a first date with made any move towards physical contact, and that was to hold my hand on a very crowded subway that was clearly making me anxious.  Before that happened, though, he'd made a pretty obvious attempt to end the date, but we realized we needed to take the same subway, so it came off as a really mixed signal and was confusing rather than appealing.  

I tried holding Anxiety Girl's hand a few times, no dice. I gave her a kiss on the head when I left her at her door which, unbeknownst to me caused great anxiety too. I learned about that second-hand too, so I obviously I felt like a sack of shit for doing that. I didn't know she'd feel that way, but at least Anxiety Girl did tell me (after the fact) that I was being too physical for a first date. Well, shit.

Something else to keep in mind is that, if you're already a pretty touch-y person, women might not know that this is you expressing interest, rather than just something you do with friends.

I'm actually not a pretty touchy person, I keep to myself a lot. With people I'm attracted to sure, I'll be a little more physical, otherwise, nooope.

Okay, see, here's proof that someone HAS been interested - she agreed to go on a first date with you.  Did she tell you why she didn't want a second?  Is it possible that with all of her social anxiety, she was overwhelmed?  It might not have anything to do with you, specifically.

This is opening up old wounds (owie), she said she wasn't feeling it. And yeah, she was also overwhelmed from her social anxiety and maybe me coming on too strong, although I think I was pretty subdued. Aside from that, I dunno. :\

I bet that the women who spark your interest have more in common than you realize.  Are you interested in all body types/races?  Women who are very Christian?  Seriously, pick out three, and post them here, and maybe we can help you with this.  Also, who are these women who give two shits about height?  I've never met any of them.  

I would certainly hope so! And pick out three? Three wut?

Body types I'm interested in vary, but to go with OKC's body types I like curvy, a little extra, average, skinny or overweight. Race-wise? I guess I'm more into white, Hispanic/Latin and Asian women because that's pretty much who I grew around in while school, in my local communities and neighborhoods. I would say some Middle Eastern women too, but from what I've seen and been told they're pretty strict on who they date, a few told me that they don't date anyone who isn't Middle Eastern.

But women who are very Christian? If she was the right woman, that made me the happiest man on earth, then sure. Otherwise, I'm not particular about religion, I don't care if she's Christian, Buddhist, Jewish or all three. I myself am a terrible Christian.

I dunno how to describe these women who're particular about height, but yes, they definitely wrote on their profiles that over 6ft was a plus or message them if and only if they're 6ft or taller.

Oh, and a good rule of thumb is that most women are going to like guys who are similar to them - if they come off as intelligent, they are likely looking for an intelligent guy.  There are ways to figure this out without asking them things.  Looking at their match questions, though, is essentially looking at a questionnaire that they've already filled out!

I do go through their questions and Dreams.'

Most people like Netflix.  Although, when someone says in their profile that they don't like to watch TV, I move on, because that person is probably going to judge me when I'm marathoning Once Upon A Time the next time I'm home sick.  Or just, home.  But that's a pretty generic interest (kind of like, "grabbing drinks with friends"), so it's not going to make you stand out if that's why you message them.

[quotet them and the ones they sent me.

5-10's probably a good number - maybe best for you to not to it all at once, and do one or two on a work break, that kind of thing.  But it sounds like you're investing a lot of time with each person, and while reading their profile is important, if you're agonizing this much over each message, then you're, well, doing it wrong.

As for the Oneitis thing, doesn't Doc have some advice for this?[/quote]

[readertorider]

Well I re-enabled so I could show you some of the changes and messages I had put up. I also deleted the other album I had since it's an exercise in futility as well.

So, here it is again: http://www.okcupid.com/profile/MikeyWithNoName

I have some opinions if you want them.

I bet that the women who spark your interest have more in common than you realize.  Are you interested in all body types/races?  Women who are very Christian?  Seriously, pick out three, and post them here, and maybe we can help you with this.  Also, who are these women who give two shits about height?  I've never met any of them.  

I would certainly hope so! And pick out three? Three wut?

I think jcorozza means pick three traits that you are looking for when you message a woman and we can try to help tailor your profile to appeal to people with those traits. For instance--I want someone who's kind, intelligent, and moderately outdoorsy.  I'm not sure how I'd tailor an online dating profile to attract the first two traits, but for the last one I'd definitely include pictures of me doing things outdoors and maybe mention a favorite camping trip or my interest in spiders in my profile. Are you looking for a particular lifestyle/degree of social interaction/element of creativity/sense of humor...? What do the women you are interested in have in common?

[reboot]

I was kind of thinking the same thing. You do not have a specific type and are open to dating a wide range of women, but I am betting that having such a broad scope makes OLD less effective, so maybe use OLD to find a specific type of woman and tailor your profile for that audience. Use OLD to meet, say, women who are interested in filmmaking/work in filmmaking and/or read science fiction Then highlight that interest in your profile and in your messages.

I also agree with AutumnFlame. You need to message more and not get hung up on individual replies. No wonder OLD was not working for you if you only messaged 2-3 people! Aim for 10-20 a day. The messages should seriously take no more than 2-3 minutes to write:

"Hey, another Kubrick fan! What is your favorite? Mine is Barry Lydon, which is kind of strange because I usually am not keen on costume dramas"

"It is awesome that you make documentaries, what have they been about? Of what I have seen recently, my favorite was Restepo. What is your favorite?"

"I love horror movies too. I saw A Girl Walks Home Alone at Night. Who knew Bakersfield could stand in for a crapped out Iranian oil town? What is the best horror flick you have seen recently?"

[jcorozza]

Well I re-enabled so I could show you some of the changes and messages I had put up. I also deleted the other album I had since it's an exercise in futility as well.

So, here it is again: http://www.okcupid.com/profile/MikeyWithNoName

I still think your first picture isn't your best one for what you're trying to portray.  It's giving off a very '50s greaser tough guy vibe to me (I think it's mostly in your facial expression), whereas your actual personality (at least from what I've seen) is more friendly/excitable.  I think the picture with you holding the camera, the one that looks like you're on some kind of hike/outdoor adventure, and the one with your dogs are the best ones.

While I don't notice anything glaringly "wrong" with the text of your profile, but it does still seem a bit all over the place, if that makes any sense.

So I took a look through some of your questions, and have some thoughts about that.  So, two questions jumped out right away: Regardless of future plans, what's more interesting to you right now? (your answer: Sex) and Would you date someone just for the sex? (your answer: Yes).  In your profile, you list that you're looking for new friends, and short/long term relationships.  So...I'm seeing a mismatch here.  Are you more interested in casual sex?  Because the answers to those questions are absolutely going to read that way to women looking at your profile.  And women who are looking for relationships are very likely to not be interested.  If you're looking for casual sex, that's fine, but be upfront about it (you're a guy, so you probably won't get tons of creepy messages just because you check that box), but right now it's really not clear what you want.

The next thing I noticed were what I call the "jealousy" questions: Would it bother you if your partner kept pictures of previous partner(s)? (Your answer: Yes), Would you be okay with your significant other spending a lot of time with one of his/her exes (as a friend)? (Your answer: No), Your significant other's ex is coming into town and he/she wants to go out to dinner with them alone. How do you react? (Your answer: Not thrilled, but go ahead).  Combine those with your answer to how often you get angry, and it's very possible that you're going to come across as a potentially angry jealous boyfriend.  I especially don't understand the one with keeping pictures of exes  -  people keep photos (or Facebook albums) of happy memories.  I can see why someone would destroy pictures with an ex who cheated or was abusive, but why shouldn't they keep pictures from prom, or other events attended with an ex?  

The last few are all related to intellectual curiosity/nerdy traits:

- the wherefore question - your answer: who cares/wtf?  I know that there are women who screen based on this question.  It seems petty, but I can understand why.  It's one thing to answer the wrong thing, but if you don't know and don't care, you have a few options: one is to look it up!  The internet is a wonderful, magical, answer-filled machine! To me, that's what curious person would do.  The other, if you don't want to be bothered to do that, is to just not answer that question.  But when people answer it your way, it can come off as "I'm not curious, and I don't understand why anyone would care about something like this"
-How important is it that your partner be willing and able to participate in meaningful philosophical conversations? (Your answer: Not at all important)  Lots of nerdy types enjoy these types of conversations! Some who, reading your profile, is one the fence about whether your more "football bro-y" or artsy/nerdy might lean towards the former when reading this question.
-In a potential mate, is ditzyness a turn-on or a turn-off? (Your answer: I'm neutral/it depends on other traits)  Now, this one may just be me, but as someone who takes a lot of pride in my intelligence, and who seeks out intelligent men, I find ditzyness to be a HUGE turnoff.  To me, a ditzy person is someone who is proud of the fact that they don't know much, and has no interest in changing that.  So, for me, someone who might be into ditzy women is someone who's into not very intelligent women.

I know it seems like I'm reading too much into these questions, but I think it's really important to think about your answers, and to think about why certain answers are/aren't acceptable.

I, personally, don't break the touch barrier until I'm comfortable touching them too. Usually it's a very playful touch or poke, for example I hung out with a co-worker last November (strictly platonic because we had a rapport and she was leaving back to Tennessee) and I took her to get noodles with me and she's a shy kid too, she didn't wanna bother the waiters to get a little to-go box. So I teased her a little bit and gently & playfully poking her arm as she laughed.

This contradicts what you say further down about only being physically affectionate with women you're into dating-wise, so I'm a tad confused.

How soon after I meet someone do I want to ask someone out? Depends, a lot of times I wanna do it right away, like if I had any more brass/courage/balls I'd ask them out the same day, but I think that's too soon/hasty.

And what makes the "romantic partner"-light turn on? Also depends. For example with Anxiety girl, she was a huge sci-fi fanatic and big on classic rock bands, same as me, she wasn't as much into vidya, but that was good enough for me. Or the ladies who interned with me, both of them were filmmakers, just like me, both of them liked to drink also like me and liked watch older classic movies much like me as well. Or one girl from church, she was a little different, she was a Christian Catholic and worked at a women's center on her university's campus, before that she had gone on mission in Africa and some other stuff that really drew me in (also, she's fellow golden retriever owner to boot :3). There was one girl in an English class who was a swimmer, same as me (though at the time I sucked at it ) and I thought her antics were pretty silly and she herself was pretty funny.

Many times, I try to find a lot of common ground with the women I'd want to date, other -- much rarer -- times Little Mikey is making decisions (he doesn't think very thoroughly), so mistakes are made sometimes as well. But I also figure that that's what the first date is all about figuring out what you two have in common if these commonalities aren't found when hanging out one-on-one or in a group.

Other than what's in bold, it seems like your main focus is on interests, rather than personality traits.  I think this may be a part of why you're struggling.  You have a pretty wide array of interests, so it's going to be fairly easy to find common interests with a lot of women.  But they might still be poor personality matches.

I tried holding Anxiety Girl's hand a few times, no dice. I gave her a kiss on the head when I left her at her door which, unbeknownst to me caused great anxiety too. I learned about that second-hand too, so I obviously I felt like a sack of shit for doing that. I didn't know she'd feel that way, but at least Anxiety Girl did tell me (after the fact) that I was being too physical for a first date. Well, shit.

This is where reading people is super important.  You knew she wasn't down with the hand holding, so the move to kiss her, even on the forehead, was incredibly risky, and it sounds like she felt that you were pushing her boundaries. Also, if you tried handholding once, and she wasn't interested, don't try again until you have a signal to go forward!  Or, you can ask.  

I'm actually not a pretty touchy person, I keep to myself a lot. With people I'm attracted to sure, I'll be a little more physical, otherwise, nooope.

I already touched on this a bit, but I also wanted to bring up the two intern girls.  You were physical with both of them, which means that they both saw you being physical with the other, and if this was meant as flirting, it's going to be harder for them to read because of that. It also doesn't make it seem like you're specifically interested in one of them, so even if they see it as flirting, it might not come off as flattering if it looks like you do it with all women (or all women your age, etc.)

I would certainly hope so! And pick out three? Three wut?

Three profiles of women who you find interesting!

But women who are very Christian? If she was the right woman, that made me the happiest man on earth, then sure. Otherwise, I'm not particular about religion, I don't care if she's Christian, Buddhist, Jewish or all three. I myself am a terrible Christian.

So it's good that you're open about religion, but there's a very good chance that, with a woman who IS very Christian/Jewish/Muslim/etc., it's going to be important to her that her partner is, too.

I do go through their questions and Dreams.

Okay, and what have you found out by doing that?

[Guest]

I have some opinions if you want them.

Sure!

I think jcorozza means pick three traits that you are looking for when you message a woman and we can try to help tailor your profile to appeal to people with those traits. For instance--I want someone who's kind, intelligent, and moderately outdoorsy.  I'm not sure how I'd tailor an online dating profile to attract the first two traits, but for the last one I'd definitely include pictures of me doing things outdoors and maybe mention a favorite camping trip or my interest in spiders in my profile. Are you looking for a particular lifestyle/degree of social interaction/element of creativity/sense of humor...? What do the women you are interested in have in common?

I'd want someone as smart as me, or even smarter, not a requirement but would be nice. I would like someone who's nice/kind/sweet, that IS a requirement. I'd want someone who has a high amount of wit/snarkiness/sass, it'd be nice but not a requirement; a major requirement is a sense of humor, which I've seen many girls put on their profiles. And must be nerdy/geeky or another fellow artist/filmmaker.

I was kind of thinking the same thing. You do not have a specific type and are open to dating a wide range of women, but I am betting that having such a broad scope makes OLD less effective, so maybe use OLD to find a specific type of woman and tailor your profile for that audience. Use OLD to meet, say, women who are interested in filmmaking/work in filmmaking and/or read science fiction Then highlight that interest in your profile and in your messages.

But why does that make it ineffective? Better yet, how the hell am I supposed to tailor my profile that way?

I also agree with AutumnFlame. You need to message more and not get hung up on individual replies. No wonder OLD was not working for you if you only messaged 2-3 people! Aim for 10-20 a day. The messages should seriously take no more than 2-3 minutes to write:

10 to 20? My matches kinda fall off after awhile; I haven't counted but I gotta say I think that there's like 50 profiles that show at a time and then OKC says "that's all we could find sorry lol". So on top of trying to find something to write on thick or light profiles, the number of matches that show are minuscule. D:

"Hey, another Kubrick fan! What is your favorite? Mine is Barry Lydon, which is kind of strange because I usually am not keen on costume dramas"

"It is awesome that you make documentaries, what have they been about? Of what I have seen recently, my favorite was Restepo. What is your favorite?"

"I love horror movies too. I saw A Girl Walks Home Alone at Night. Who knew Bakersfield could stand in for a crapped out Iranian oil town? What is the best horror flick you have seen recently?"

I like all kinds of women and I send out very similar messages just like those, so I'm confused what else I'm doing wrong.

[reboot]

In addition to what jcorozza said about the inconsistencies in your profile, perhaps consider using OLD to only look for women with a specific interest and then focus on writing about that interest in your profile. Something more selective just in the OLD venue. The generic is fine for IRL, but it might not work so well on OLD.

I am somewhat surprised that you only get 50 matches if you are only filtering by age. That makes me think something is off kilter. Have you looked at how the women you are interested in, but with who do not come up in the match search and looked at how they answered their questions?

[jcorozza]

I am somewhat surprised that you only get 50 matches if you are only filtering by age. That makes me think something is off kilter. Have you looked at how the women you are interested in, but with who do not come up in the match search and looked at how they answered their questions?

Are you still filtering at only 10 miles away?

[Guest]

I still think your first picture isn't your best one for what you're trying to portray.  It's giving off a very '50s greaser tough guy vibe to me (I think it's mostly in your facial expression), whereas your actual personality (at least from what I've seen) is more friendly/excitable.  I think the picture with you holding the camera, the one that looks like you're on some kind of hike/outdoor adventure, and the one with your dogs are the best ones.

Okie, changed.

While I don't notice anything glaringly "wrong" with the text of your profile, but it does still seem a bit all over the place, if that makes any sense.

So I took a look through some of your questions, and have some thoughts about that.  So, two questions jumped out right away: Regardless of future plans, what's more interesting to you right now? (your answer: Sex) and Would you date someone just for the sex? (your answer: Yes).  In your profile, you list that you're looking for new friends, and short/long term relationships.  So...I'm seeing a mismatch here.  Are you more interested in casual sex?  Because the answers to those questions are absolutely going to read that way to women looking at your profile.  And women who are looking for relationships are very likely to not be interested.  If you're looking for casual sex, that's fine, but be upfront about it (you're a guy, so you probably won't get tons of creepy messages just because you check that box), but right now it's really not clear what you want.

Yes, I understand, the profile doesn't seem entirely focused.

I'm gonna assume people simply ignore the explanations you can add to your answers, all righty. Well, I was told that "short-term dating" was code for "casual sex" without actually putting down that you're looking for casual sex. As far as I'm concerned and from what I've seen, it appears as though nobody seems to be interested in casual sex of any kind, so even if I'm being upfront about it, I don't think anyone will respond based on that. I certainly am looking for casual sex too, I wouldn't mind it. As for the second question I thought that referred to friends with benefits...   Either way, I'm up to being FWB.\

I'm looking for both casual sex and/or a relationship, one or the other is fine. I just don't talk too much about the sex since... I'm still a virgin.

The next thing I noticed were what I call the "jealousy" questions: Would it bother you if your partner kept pictures of previous partner(s)? (Your answer: Yes), Would you be okay with your significant other spending a lot of time with one of his/her exes (as a friend)? (Your answer: No), Your significant other's ex is coming into town and he/she wants to go out to dinner with them alone. How do you react? (Your answer: Not thrilled, but go ahead).  Combine those with your answer to how often you get angry, and it's very possible that you're going to come across as a potentially angry jealous boyfriend.  I especially don't understand the one with keeping pictures of exes  -  people keep photos (or Facebook albums) of happy memories.  I can see why someone would destroy pictures with an ex who cheated or was abusive, but why shouldn't they keep pictures from prom, or other events attended with an ex?  

For the pictures, in retrospect, it would depend on the ex. If the break-up was mutual and the ex wasn't abusive or anything bad like that, then by all means go ahead.

The thing with exes though, it's not that I don't trust her, it's the ex I worry about. If she wants to go out to dinner with an ex, then I guess the onus is on both of them to be on the same page and agree that it's not a date. I would trust my *future* girl very much because, she's obviously her own person and can see whoever she wants. So I ain't worried about her, I'm worried about others trying something, but it's a risk I need to be okay with. As for the anger question... doesn't everyone get angry sometimes? The times I do go Hulk-mode are extremely rare and I generally keep my composure and keep my anger in check.

The last few are all related to intellectual curiosity/nerdy traits:

- the wherefore question - your answer: who cares/wtf?  I know that there are women who screen based on this question.  It seems petty, but I can understand why.  It's one thing to answer the wrong thing, but if you don't know and don't care, you have a few options: one is to look it up!  The internet is a wonderful, magical, answer-filled machine! To me, that's what curious person would do.  The other, if you don't want to be bothered to do that, is to just not answer that question.  But when people answer it your way, it can come off as "I'm not curious, and I don't understand why anyone would care about something like this"

For me that question really was an oddball question like the numbers analogy or whatever. Plus I detest Romeo & Juliet, I think it's one of the weaker Shakespearean plays, though certainly a popular one. This question to me didn't mean a whole lot, so I guess I'll clear it then...

-How important is it that your partner be willing and able to participate in meaningful philosophical conversations? (Your answer: Not at all important)  Lots of nerdy types enjoy these types of conversations! Some who, reading your profile, is one the fence about whether your more "football bro-y" or artsy/nerdy might lean towards the former when reading this question.

From personal experience, people who started conversations about "philosophy" were doing so to appear "deep" and/or "intelligent". When in reality, they appeared to be pretentious. I'm willing to admit that I don't know shit about philosophy so I'm not gonna debate somebody who knows more about philosophy than me. I'm willing to learn about philosophy so long as I'm not being lectured about it like a child.

And in general philosophy wasn't something I was terribly interested.

-In a potential mate, is ditzyness a turn-on or a turn-off? (Your answer: I'm neutral/it depends on other traits)  Now, this one may just be me, but as someone who takes a lot of pride in my intelligence, and who seeks out intelligent men, I find ditzyness to be a HUGE turnoff.  To me, a ditzy person is someone who is proud of the fact that they don't know much, and has no interest in changing that.  So, for me, someone who might be into ditzy women is someone who's into not very intelligent women.

I know it seems like I'm reading too much into these questions, but I think it's really important to think about your answers, and to think about why certain answers are/aren't acceptable.

To me someone ditzy was kinda dumb and innocent, but more silly or scatterbrained as per a google search. Just because you're silly doesn't mean you're a dummy. If she's too much of a ditz, then yes, it can indeed be a problem. I can be very flexible so long as the other person isn't cold-hearted.

I always think about my answers to questions, but I also want to answer them as honestly as possible. The ones that seem like trap questions, I tend to avoid and just don't answer them.

This contradicts what you say further down about only being physically affectionate with women you're into dating-wise, so I'm a tad confused.

You're right. Forgive me, for I just do things sometimes without thinking.

Other than what's in bold, it seems like your main focus is on interests, rather than personality traits.  I think this may be a part of why you're struggling.  You have a pretty wide array of interests, so it's going to be fairly easy to find common interests with a lot of women.  But they might still be poor personality matches.

What's the problem with what was in bold though? I thought the point of dating was to find commonalities and get to know their personality and THEN decide.

This is where reading people is super important.  You knew she wasn't down with the hand holding, so the move to kiss her, even on the forehead, was incredibly risky, and it sounds like she felt that you were pushing her boundaries. Also, if you tried handholding once, and she wasn't interested, don't try again until you have a signal to go forward!  Or, you can ask.  

I didn't know she wasn't gonna jive with the hand-holding or anything like that! This is a girl who was also a tiny-bit sheltered and doesn't really take a hint too well when I extended my hand to her the first time and just left me hanging like sillyhead. She didn't tell me anything about the hand-holding or kiss until days after the fact and I was sure that I also was NOT her first date ever either. She was my first date ever.

I was also advised on the old DNL forums that asking to hold her hand was silly and ill-advised. A little consistency would be appreciated.

I already touched on this a bit, but I also wanted to bring up the two intern girls.  You were physical with both of them, which means that they both saw you being physical with the other, and if this was meant as flirting, it's going to be harder for them to read because of that. It also doesn't make it seem like you're specifically interested in one of them, so even if they see it as flirting, it might not come off as flattering if it looks like you do it with all women (or all women your age, etc.)

I wasn't too physical with both of them. I was more physical with one than the other, for sure and I guess it coulda been seen as flirting? I dunno. I thought I was supposed to keep an open mind and my options open? I'm terrible at flirting anyway, I can't really do it nor do I know what it really is. I dunno, like I said, I just do things, sometimes without thinking.

Three profiles of women who you find interesting!

Uhhh, I don't exactly feel comfortable linking to other people's profiles, at least not out in the open like this.

So it's good that you're open about religion, but there's a very good chance that, with a woman who IS very Christian/Jewish/Muslim/etc., it's going to be important to her that her partner is, too.

Correct, so, it's at her discretion then to decide for herself.

Okay, and what have you found out by doing that?

Uhhh I think part of that was an auto-correct error, anyway, what did I find out by doing so? Some of these women who I matched with had the same thoughts and feelings I did about sex, dating, lifestyle and other questions. Maybe I'm doing it wrong?[/quote]

[The Wisp]

I was told that "short-term dating" was code for "casual sex" without actually putting down that you're looking for casual sex. As far as I'm concerned and from what I've seen, it appears as though nobody seems to be interested in casual sex of any kind, so even if I'm being upfront about it, I don't think anyone will respond based on that. I certainly am looking for casual sex too, I wouldn't mind it. As for the second question I thought that referred to friends with benefits...

That's what I've been told, too. It seems like a lot of women, even those open to more casual arrangements, tend to make a lot of uncharitable assumptions about men who list casual sex. Apparently listing "casual sex" really hurts your chances of getting responses in general.

[Guest]

In addition to what jcorozza said about the inconsistencies in your profile, perhaps consider using OLD to only look for women with a specific interest and then focus on writing about that interest in your profile. Something more selective just in the OLD venue. The generic is fine for IRL, but it might not work so well on OLD.

I am somewhat surprised that you only get 50 matches if you are only filtering by age. That makes me think something is off kilter. Have you looked at how the women you are interested in, but with who do not come up in the match search and looked at how they answered their questions?

50 was a poor estimate because when I set the order by "Match by %", I get more than that, I counted (3x the number of rows). But when I leave it at Special Blend and keep the same filters which are minimal I got a whopping 17 matches, then I add another few ethnic filters and it bumps up to 30. None of which were even in the 90's and even tosses a 20% match just for good measure.

I dunno, maybe I'll just forget about OLD because apparently I'm open and generic (dude, that hurts, a lot :\).

Are you still filtering at only 10 miles away?

I was.

[reboot]

What ethnic filters? Dies that matter so much for casual relationships?

[jcorozza]

Yes, I understand, the profile doesn't seem entirely focused.

I'm gonna assume people simply ignore the explanations you can add to your answers, all righty. Well, I was told that "short-term dating" was code for "casual sex" without actually putting down that you're looking for casual sex. As far as I'm concerned and from what I've seen, it appears as though nobody seems to be interested in casual sex of any kind, so even if I'm being upfront about it, I don't think anyone will respond based on that. I certainly am looking for casual sex too, I wouldn't mind it. As for the second question I thought that referred to friends with benefits...   Either way, I'm up to being FWB.\

I'm looking for both casual sex and/or a relationship, one or the other is fine. I just don't talk too much about the sex since... I'm still a virgin.

I don't think the same rules apply to putting down casual sex to men as do for women. When women check off casual sex, a lot of guys think that's the go ahead to send a metric shit-ton of disgusting, presumptuous messages. So most who are actually interested in that will check "short term relationships". But I don't think the same things is true for men - I could be wrong, though, because I'm focused on guys looking for long term relationship.

For the pictures, in retrospect, it would depend on the ex. If the break-up was mutual and the ex wasn't abusive or anything bad like that, then by all means go ahead.

The thing with exes though, it's not that I don't trust her, it's the ex I worry about. If she wants to go out to dinner with an ex, then I guess the onus is on both of them to be on the same page and agree that it's not a date. I would trust my *future* girl very much because, she's obviously her own person and can see whoever she wants. So I ain't worried about her, I'm worried about others trying something, but it's a risk I need to be okay with. As for the anger question... doesn't everyone get angry sometimes? The times I do go Hulk-mode are extremely rare and I generally keep my composure and keep my anger in check.

I think that's something you need to be careful with. In most situations, your trust of your GF should be enough to override your distrust of an ex. And having dated a guy who was friendly with two exes, one of whom I met, and the other I knew a lot about, I didn't have any reasons to not trust them. If the ex has done something untrustworthy that your hypothetical GF has told you about, that's a bit different, but I don't think it's the default.

It sounds like you'd be more of a "rarely" angry - I did think it was weird that my answer of "rarely" showed up as red - made me wonder if you wanted to date someone who got angry a lot.

For me that question really was an oddball question like the numbers analogy or whatever. Plus I detest Romeo & Juliet, I think it's one of the weaker Shakespearean plays, though certainly a popular one. This question to me didn't mean a whole lot, so I guess I'll clear it then...

I think a good rule of thumb is that if you either don't know an answer to a question, or just don't know how to answer it, either look it up or skip it. There are usually enough questions that get at the same basic thing that you can answer another instead.

From personal experience, people who started conversations about "philosophy" were doing so to appear "deep" and/or "intelligent". When in reality, they appeared to be pretentious. I'm willing to admit that I don't know shit about philosophy so I'm not gonna debate somebody who knows more about philosophy than me. I'm willing to learn about philosophy so long as I'm not being lectured about it like a child.

And in general philosophy wasn't something I was terribly interested.

I actually think there's a different between a "philosophical discussion" and a "discussion about philosophy" - the first is more just discussion on the "big topics" - religion, politics, ethics, whether you'd want to be immortal, etc. I think a lot of people can discuss these things without being or sounding pretentious. A "discussion about philosophy" would be more like, "what do you think of Sartre's view about X" - this is much less common.

To me someone ditzy was kinda dumb and innocent, but more silly or scatterbrained as per a google search. Just because you're silly doesn't mean you're a dummy. If she's too much of a ditz, then yes, it can indeed be a problem. I can be very flexible so long as the other person isn't cold-hearted.

I always think about my answers to questions, but I also want to answer them as honestly as possible. The ones that seem like trap questions, I tend to avoid and just don't answer them.

I think the part that threw me that my answer, that I wasn't into ditsy types, came up as unacceptable.

What's the problem with what was in bold though? I thought the point of dating was to find commonalities and get to know their personality and THEN decide.

I actually think the stuff in bold is what you SHOULD be focusing on - matching personalities - and then common interests is a bonus. It can actually be a ton of fun to introduce your partner to activities you love that they've never tried. If her main interests are running and working out, and yours are watching TV and playing video games, that might be too much of an interest mismatch, but most people have a variety of hobbies and interests.

I didn't know she wasn't gonna jive with the hand-holding or anything like that! This is a girl who was also a tiny-bit sheltered and doesn't really take a hint too well when I extended my hand to her the first time and just left me hanging like sillyhead. She didn't tell me anything about the hand-holding or kiss until days after the fact and I was sure that I also was NOT her first date ever either. She was my first date ever.

I was also advised on the old DNL forums that asking to hold her hand was silly and ill-advised. A little consistency would be appreciated.

I guess I'm confused about how this went down. Initially you said that you tried a couple of times to hold her hand - that means that after the first try, you noticed that she wasn't into it. That's a sign to back off with that. As far as consistency, you're probably not going to get that, because...women are different. Some like to be asked, and some prefer you read their body language. But because you knew this girl had a lot of anxiety, and that she didn't like it the first time, she would be a good person to try asking with.

I wasn't too physical with both of them. I was more physical with one than the other, for sure and I guess it coulda been seen as flirting? I dunno. I thought I was supposed to keep an open mind and my options open? I'm terrible at flirting anyway, I can't really do it nor do I know what it really is. I dunno, like I said, I just do things, sometimes without thinking.

Okay, you're giving off a lot of mixed signals. Are you, or aren't you, physical with girls who have no interest in dating/flirting with? First you said no, and this seems like yes? But flirting with multiple girls at once is a risky game, because it no longer feels like special attention. They may flirt back in the moment, but it's unlikely to go any further than that. There's a Parks and Rec scene where Tom buys like 20 women drinks at the bar, and goes home with none of them - because those women saw him buy drinks for 19 other women.

Uhhh, I don't exactly feel comfortable linking to other people's profiles, at least not out in the open like this.

Of course- I meant copy and paste the text, but without any identifying info. Or if that still makes you uncomfortable, you can PM it.

Uhhh I think part of that was an auto-correct error, anyway, what did I find out by doing so? Some of these women who I matched with had the same thoughts and feelings I did about sex, dating, lifestyle and other questions. Maybe I'm doing it wrong?

Do you ever look at the "unacceptable answers" page?

In regards to the generic thing: I don't think anyone is say that you ARE generic, but that your profile comes off as such.

[Wondering]

I agree with jcorozza about the "wherefore" question. I wouldn't date a guy who answered WTF. Not because he didn't know, but because of the attitude the answer displayed.

You say you want to date women as smart or smarter than you. And you are interested in women who have gotten a four year degree (among other women, of course). I think you're not coming across in some ways as someone compatible with them. jcorozza has mentioned several, but I have another one.

You use a lot of slang/misspellings when you write here. I see some of that in your profile, too. Words like "ain't," "vidya," "prolly," "gonna," "wanna." That's not going to come across well to a lot of women who are intelligent and educated.  I know you from around here and get the feeling that you're doing this intentionally and know it's not correct. But someone reading your profile doesn't know that. And if you're doing it in your messages to them, they're not going to know, either. I suggest editing your profile to remove these sorts of spellings. That's a part of showing-not-telling that you are, in fact, intelligent and educated.

Also, from back a ways, you don't want to write a message to a romantic interest like it's a college essay. Use "I." Start the message with the salutation, don't end it with "hi." Different audiences, different purposes require different writing styles. (Also, as a former writing teacher, I take issue with never-use-I in essays, but that's totally off-topic. )

[jcorozza]

Agree on pretty much all counts, Wondering - a slang or two may fly, but a lot may get wearying.

Also, from back a ways, you don't want to write a message to a romantic interest like it's a college essay. Use "I." Start the message with the salutation, don't end it with "hi." Different audiences, different purposes require different writing styles. (Also, as a former writing teacher, I take issue with never-use-I in essays, but that's totally off-topic. )

I also used to be a writing teacher, and still tutor occasionally, and completely agree re: using "I" - especially in opinion essays!

[readertorider]

I have some opinions if you want them.

Sure!

Here goes!

First--I definitely agree with jcorozza about your pictures. I think I remember you saying something about going for "self-aware dudebro" before, but I have a really hard time distinguishing "self-aware dudebro" from "self-conceited dudebro" in one picture across the gulf of the internet. I like the pictures of you with the camera and you outside the best

Second--I can't see your questions, but again I agree with jcorozza--especially regarding the jealousy questions.

More stuff:
-I'd remove your line about the quadratic formula in your intro. I think I understand what you're trying to show, but it might alienate women who aren't interested in math and it doesn't seem like an interest in math tricks is really something you're looking for.

-I'd also get rid of the "totes feminist friendly (and/or feminist allay)". To me the casual "totes" means you're not serious, the parenthetical means you're not sure what you are but you're trying to tell me what you think I want to hear, and IME guys who say they're feminists are usually the ones who like to explain women's issues to me (and expect me to agree with them). You also don't have much else in your profile which indicates you like/understand/appreciate women, which does give a bit of an impression that you put the line there because someone told you it would help you get laid. That impression is very different from the impression I get from the forum
(Actually now that you changed your pic to the more sensitive looking guy w/camera, I think the line works better, but you still might want to consider taking it out)

-I haven't read/watched/listened to all the items in your faves section, but most of the ones I have (2001: A Space Odyssey, Clockwork Orange, Reservoir Dogs, Iron Maiden, Led Zeppelin, South Park, even Pink Floyd to an extent) are focused towards a male audience. There are women who like these items (some very much!), but if you're not looking exclusively for women that share these interests it might make sense to either 1) include additional items with female authors or major characters, or 2) cut the section down a bit (it's your largest besides the self summary). These things are your favorites and that's all well and good, but they're not the most welcoming to women.

-On the same lines as the above it might make more sense to offer another movie option along with Evil Dead 2--something along the lines of Princess Bride or a Joss Whedon production which a) isn't horror b) has major female characters c) doesn't have a rating above PG-13 and d) you like .

-You mention video games twice but don't include specifics. If some of the ones you play are accessible two player types (Lego LotR/Batman/Marvel/Star Wars, Mario Party/Smash/Kart etc.) it might make sense to include them as a thing to do on a date.

-You talk a bit about your drawing/artwork/movies on your profile--would it make sense to include a drawing in your pictures or link to some of your YouTube videos?

-the slang doesn't really bother me--to me it seems a sign of not taking yourself too seriously

I'd want someone as smart as me, or even smarter, not a requirement but would be nice. I would like someone who's nice/kind/sweet, that IS a requirement. I'd want someone who has a high amount of wit/snarkiness/sass, it'd be nice but not a requirement; a major requirement is a sense of humor, which I've seen many girls put on their profiles. And must be nerdy/geeky or another fellow artist/filmmaker.

I think the best way to find a fellow artist/filmmaker would be to connect with them in the course of your life--classes, industry events, movie festivals etc.

In my experience the women who are described as nice/kind/sweet tend to like nice/kind/sweet things and aren't very snarky/sassy until they know someone well. I don't know that your profile would necessarily appeal to these women.

On the other hand many of the women who I know that are actively snarky/sassy to strangers and in general can be very nice/kind when push comes to shove. Not quite sure what you're looking for really

Also, how would you define nerdy/geeky in the context of someone you want to date?

[Guest]

I don't think the same rules apply to putting down casual sex to men as do for women.  When women check off casual sex, a lot of guys think that's the go ahead to send a metric shit-ton of disgusting, presumptuous messages.  So most who are actually interested in that will check "short term relationships".  But I don't think the same things is true for men - I could be wrong, though, because I'm focused on guys looking for long term relationship.

I guess not since I can't seem to get a straight answer from anyone.

I think that's something you need to be careful with.  In most situations, your trust of your GF should be enough to override your distrust of an ex.  And having dated a guy who was friendly with two exes, one of whom I met, and the other I knew a lot about, I didn't have any reasons to not trust them.  If the ex has done something untrustworthy that your hypothetical GF has told you about, that's a bit different, but I don't think it's the default.  

It sounds like you'd be more of a "rarely" angry - I did think it was weird that my answer of "rarely" showed up as red - made me wonder if you wanted to date someone who got angry a lot.

Hmmm, I think this is where there's a bit of a disconnect. You know a male ex versus a female ex, I would also be worried about her safety if she were to reject an ex's advances.

As for the anger question, on top of some answers being weird, I hate that choosing two or more options can nullify a question and for the preferred responses too.

I think a good rule of thumb is that if you either don't know an answer to a question, or just don't know how to answer it, either look it up or skip it.  There are usually enough questions that get at the same basic thing that you can answer another instead.  

If I can't answer a question, that seems about on par as to what I'd do.

I actually think there's a different between a "philosophical discussion" and a "discussion about philosophy" - the first is more just discussion on the "big topics" - religion, politics, ethics, whether you'd want to be immortal, etc.  I think a lot of people can discuss these things without being or sounding pretentious.  A "discussion about philosophy" would be more like, "what do you think of Sartre's view about X" - this is much less common.

Well they have questions about discussion religion and politics and ethics and whatnot on OKC, so I don't understand why there's even a "philosophical discussion" question to begin with, but I'll roll with it, I guess. And for the record, I can indeed discuss those topics, some I prolly won't be able to keep up because they just may be subjects I'm not versed in.

I think the part that threw me that my answer, that I wasn't into ditsy types, came up as unacceptable.

Really? Shit, I don't even remember what I put down for acceptable answers for the 200+ questions. D:

I actually think the stuff in bold is what you SHOULD be focusing on - matching personalities - and then common interests is a bonus.  It can actually be a ton of fun to introduce your partner to activities you love that they've never tried.  If her main interests are running and working out, and yours are watching TV and playing video games, that might be too much of an interest mismatch, but most people have a variety of hobbies and interests.  

Huh. I didn't give the personality thing much thought only because I never got far beyond asking anyone out. If I talked to them prior to asking them out, well, there was something about their personality that I liked, obviously. What that would have been, well, I had yet to figure it out which I couldn't figure out fast enough.

I guess I'm confused about how this went down.  Initially you said that you tried a couple of times to hold her hand - that means that after the first try, you noticed that she wasn't into it.  That's a sign to back off with that.  As far as consistency, you're probably not going to get that, because...women are different.  Some like to be asked, and some prefer you read their body language.  But because you knew this girl had a lot of anxiety, and that she didn't like it the first time, she would be a good person to try asking with.  

Correct, I did try to hold her hand twice, that was about it with the hand holding. The first time, I held out my hand as an indicator of, "Oh hey, lets hold hands. :3" She derped out and didn't get the hint so I had my hand sticking out for a second like dumbass, then she got the message but let go to look at some trinkets. I tried a second time and she still kinda derped, "Okay," I thought, "So she's also pretty awkward and possibly not into the hand holding, no big deal."

I knew she had anxiety and what not, but I hadn't the slightest idea that it got that bad either. :\

Okay, you're giving off a lot of mixed signals.  Are you, or aren't you, physical with girls who have no interest in dating/flirting with? First you said no, and this seems like yes?  But flirting with multiple girls at once is a risky game, because it no longer feels like special attention.  They may flirt back in the moment, but it's unlikely to go any further than that.  There's a Parks and Rec scene where Tom buys like 20 women drinks at the bar, and goes home with none of them - because those women saw him buy drinks for 19 other women.

I don't even know what I'm doing anymore. I do things and mess with people, girls included. I don't know how to actually flirt at all if I'm being honest. I have an idea, but chances are it's completely wrong. Also for the record, I've never seen Parks & Rec. So I don't think that even if I bought one woman a drink she'd go home with me, or I with her.

Of course- I meant copy and paste the text, but without any identifying info.  Or if that still makes you uncomfortable, you can PM it.

I'll have to think about that since I'm thinking of permanently deleting my profile, not just disabling, but deleting.

 
Do you ever look at the "unacceptable answers" page?

No? I... what're you talking about?

In regards to the generic thing:  I don't think anyone is say that you ARE generic, but that your profile comes off as such.

I agree with jcorozza about the "wherefore" question. I wouldn't date a guy who answered WTF. Not because he didn't know, but because of the attitude the answer displayed.

Really? I just thought it was an odd question to ask on a dating site...

You say you want to date women as smart or smarter than you. And you are interested in women who have gotten a four year degree (among other women, of course). I think you're not coming across in some ways as someone compatible with them. jcorozza has mentioned several, but I have another one.

Woah woah woah, slow down. I don't mind them being smarter and I don't mind them having a degree. I didn't say I was interested in them having a 4-year degree, if they do, good for them. If they don't, that's cool too, I don't mind either way.

You use a lot of slang/misspellings when you write here. I see some of that in your profile, too. Words like "ain't," "vidya," "prolly," "gonna," "wanna." That's not going to come across well to a lot of women who are intelligent and educated.  I know you from around here and get the feeling that you're doing this intentionally and know it's not correct. But someone reading your profile doesn't know that. And if you're doing it in your messages to them, they're not going to know, either. I suggest editing your profile to remove these sorts of spellings. That's a part of showing-not-telling that you are, in fact, intelligent and educated.

Yeah, of course I know it's intentional and yes I know it's incorrect. But I'm not writing a master's thesis here. I don't speak or write that formally online or in person, if you want to read my research paper on A Clockwork Orange or any of my other English papers from a few years back I can link them to you from my Dropbox. I'm looking at the messages I sent in the last week and well, none of them sounds like what you guys are describing, so I haven't the slightest clue what I'm doing wrong.

Also, from back a ways, you don't want to write a message to a romantic interest like it's a college essay. Use "I." Start the message with the salutation, don't end it with "hi." Different audiences, different purposes require different writing styles. (Also, as a former writing teacher, I take issue with never-use-I in essays, but that's totally off-topic. )

Nooo, I don't write messages that way. But I do try to make my messages about her, even that's not worked.

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