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Post by Andrew Corvero on Sat Apr 18, 2015 8:32 am

There's just a general thing I've noticed about dating, flirting and approaches: they seem to work much better for me when I don't even think about them.

By this I mean that it has happened a few times that I meet someone, talk to them, joke together with them, chat for a while, hang around and/or then go to an event together without even thinking that I'm hitting on them, and then if they just behave as friends I have no problem with that and we hang out as friends, but if they show me they're interested in me in a sexual way, sometimes I find it welcome (no problem with that either) and sometimes not really because I was just thinking of them as friends (and I try to reject them as gently and indirectly as possible since it hurts me to have given them the wrong idea, even though I didn't mean to.)

On the other hand if I at any point the idea that I'm actually asking someone out pops into my brain my anxiety kicks in and I screw it up one way or another. Just the ideas "I'm going to hit on someone" "I'm going to ask them for their number" or "I'm sexually interested in this person" is enough to make me incredibly more awkward, anxious and tongue-tied.

It's like the Centipede Problem of dating: if I don't think about what I'm doing things go much better than if I stop to think about it.

Is it just me or do any other people experience this, too? Should I change something about the way I act not to lead people the wrong way? And why do things seem to go much better when I don't think about it?
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Post by Guest on Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:06 am

Andrew Corvero wrote:And why do things seem to go much better when I don't think about it?

Because ignorance is bliss, dude. When you think too much, you get caught up in thinking about technicalities and all the myriad things that can go wrong. It keeps you from relaxing, and so you've tripped up from the get-go.

When you explicitly remind yourself that you're flirting or whatever, you've also reminded yourself of an expectation for a certain outcome, and this further adds pressure to you.

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Post by Guest on Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:50 am

There are a few parts of this:

1. When you're not thinking about it, you're in the moment and having fun, instead of focusing on a goal. When you're not focusing on a future goal, you're enjoying the moment more, and that enjoyment does two things. First, it is infectious. We like people who are having fun. Second, it telegraphs very clearly to the person you're with: "This guy likes me, because he is having fun with me." People like to be liked.

2. When we are moving towards a goal, we tend to be risk-averse. If we're just handed a $20 and told, "Hey, buy a 50% chance to get $50," we rationally say, "Sure!" But when we are saving for a new TV, and we've earmarked that $20 to go into the car fund, we are more afraid of losing it than hopeful of adding to it. This happens in flirting, too. When you're doing it consciously, you're more afraid of saying the wrong thing, so you self-censor, and you don't make the funny joke for fear it will come out wrong.

3. It may be a confirmation bias issue. When you're flirting, you have a vested interest in the outcome, and you are choosing the target, so you notice all of the misses. When you're just hanging out, the people who like your style select in, by expressing interest. And you don't notice the many many people who just aren't into you, because they don't say, "Hey, guy that's not flirting with me: just so you know, not gonna do sexing, we cool?"

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Post by Gman on Sat Apr 18, 2015 10:40 am

This is exactly what happened to me on a date I just had and is also what I believe to be the primary reason as to why I think it went so well.

I was completley in the mindset of just having fun, not really thinking about when to say X or do Y (except for a moment or two). It went so well and I was having so much fun that I simply "Felt" comfortable to go in for a kiss (that was enthusiastically accepted and returned). I did it not because I thought on a logical level "Ok, now is a good time for a kiss because X, Y and Z" but I thought "Wow. I am having so much fun. I'm attracted to this person. I'm feeling a good and positive, flirty vibe. I feel like trying to kiss this person." It came from a place of true self-confidence and that's why I think it was accepted. If I had tried to do the same thing coming from a more logical level than a self-confidence one, it would have most likely failed miserably.

Even though it didn't evolve further from that (she recently texted me that she doesn't want to continue dating due to religion differences), I am still amazed by just how well that first date went (first time I have ever kissed someone on a first date. To top it off, she was from a dating site and this was our first IRL meeting) and I am now trying to understand what other elements I did right during the date - so that I can implement them in future romantic interactions.
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Post by Guest on Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:17 am

If I'm approaching somebody for something, anything that ISN'T a date, everything is fine.

But if and when I want to ask for a date, I don't actually wanna do that because previous experience has it that I'm gonna fuck it up somehow. So I tend to not bother often, cuz you know, girls dun like me much. Razz Plus what happens afterwards, the girls I did ask out, whenever I wanna talk to them on a friendly platonic level they just blow me off. Another reason why I'd rather just keep them as friends.

Don't get me wrong, I'm cool enough to hangout with 1-on-1 in a platonic context/level, but in a romantic context/level? Noooo, hell to the no.


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Post by reboot on Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:19 am

I think this happens a lot in different settings for people with anxiety, in general or around specific topics, coupled with lack of confidence, in general or on specific topics. I have seen people almost slip into the situations they feared without thinking and handle it masterfully up until the moment they realize what they are doing (which can cause a freeze up) or make it all the way out of the situation without realizing what happened until someone told them. It is exactly like described by the above posters, the brain gets out of its own way.

An example was this young camp worker I worked with in Jordan. He was terrified of saying something wrong in Arabic so he never spoke it with native speakers, despite his Arabic being decent. One day we were swamped, refugees were pouring in, we could no locate the new load of tents, the latrines were late getting constructed, absolute mayhem. Some time in the middle of the day I realize this guy has been rattling off in Arabic and being understood for at least a few hours. When we wrapped up, I mentioned to him that it was cool that he was speaking Arabic all day. He said, "Wait! What? I was? Really?" I think what happened was people were shouting questions at him while he was busy doing other work and he just answered without thinking and it started. After that, he still could not do it during calm times, but during busy ones the switch would flip, and then eventually he was able to do it all the time.
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Post by Werel on Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:33 pm

This is a well-documented phenomenon in the mid-20th century zoological literature, the "Don't Look Down Effect":

Does this happen to somebody else, too? Tumblr_inline_mun90gXVjr1qb0d5y
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Post by Guest on Sat Apr 18, 2015 4:46 pm

Yeah, that's textbook me, and by association, everyone here who isn't happy or something.

In a platonic context, I've got nothing to lose, since friendships are almost never based on attraction and thus people who aren't attracted to me can very well be my friend, because being alone sucks.

Relationships and sex hold far more value since all you have to do to get a friend is imitate the personality and behavior of the person you want to be friends with, pretend to like what they like, and POW. Not nearly as simple as it sounds there, obviously, it's still incredibly fucking difficult for me, but that's how it happens when it happens. Agree on everything, imitate behavior.

In a romantic or sexual context, you are demonstrating your own personal value (yeah yeah I know it's PUA crap but it's not gonna go that far, I promise. Strictly unisex). You are attempting to convince another person you have sexual potential, through your personal appearance (muscles, thinness, health) and personality (confidence, sociability, charm). You're configurating your own settings, as it were, to convince someone else that fornicating with you is a good idea, that it will be pleasurable for them.

It's a far more complicated thing. I've gotten nowhere close to it. But that's where the added pressure comes from. Even the ugliest most disgusting person on the planet can have a friend or two, nor is social skills really required as much. But for something as crucial and biological as sex and romance, it requires a series of calculations so advanced that for those without the instinct to mate and breed, like us, it's one of the most challenging things to do. It's like solving a math equation and you never learned calculus.

This is why most people (hyperbole, calm the fuck down, mods) see this as instinctual. They want to mate, they mate. It's almost animalistic in nature. For those of us born with inferior genetics, this is much more difficult. We are attempting to trick those already made to breed into thinking we are one of them. Deception is the only way for any man or woman who does not have the instinct for it. It's sad, but true. All of the Doc's advice is about deception, but mostly about deceiving ourselves, inducing insanity so that we can't be found out as the inferior frauds we are.

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Post by Werel on Sat Apr 18, 2015 4:55 pm

<mod>Hey Glides, check the evo-psychobabble implications that you or anybody here is somehow biologically deficient due to their sexual history, cause that's bullshit, k bud?</mod>
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Post by Andrew Corvero on Sat Apr 18, 2015 5:12 pm

This is why most people (hyperbole, calm the fuck down, mods) see this as instinctual. They want to mate, they mate. It's almost animalistic in nature. For those of us born with inferior genetics, this is much more difficult. We are attempting to trick those already made to breed into thinking we are one of them. Deception is the only way for any man or woman who does not have the instinct for it. It's sad, but true. All of the Doc's advice is about deception, but mostly about deceiving ourselves, inducing insanity so that we can't be found out as the inferior frauds we are.

I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree with you on this. I think that most people have problems with relationships, just not in the same way. Some people may not have problems with attracting partners for sex (that you know of: never underestimate how your negative biases against yourself can make you see others as much more successful than they are). However this doesn't mean that their relationships are satisfying or emotionally fulfilling.

Also I don't think that it's a matter of "inferior genetics" and "tricking" but of social and psychological skills that for one reason or another someone learns early and some has to struggle with. I don't think that those skills are always genetic in origin: a hostile environment (i.e. bullying) can stunt emotional and social growth.

You seem to be having a pretty pessimistic attitude towards learning dating skills; while I don't judge you for that I think that a negative attitude might undermine your efforts.

You're not "a fraud". You're a learner. Do you think that people who want to get in a better shape are frauds, too?
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Post by nearly_takuan on Sat Apr 18, 2015 7:26 pm

Andrew Corvero wrote:I think that most people have problems with relationships, just not in the same way. Some people may not have problems with attracting partners for sex (that you know of: never underestimate how your negative biases against yourself can make you see others as much more successful than they are).

Decent points across the rest of what you've said here, but I think you are overestimating us, too.

Because if someone has problems "not in the same way," that indicates to me that they are also not really problems with the same thing. Someone else's idea of what "problems with relationships" looks like is going to be different from mine. Maybe they aren't getting as much sex as they'd like. Maybe they only rarely get a second date. Both cases qualify as "successful" with the expectations I've learned to have for myself, so it's not assuming they're "more successful than they are" so much as using a different unit of measurement with a different zero; I'm not really thinking about what's involved in melting water, because I'm still trying to melt Mercury.
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Post by kath on Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:42 am

Glides wrote:
This is why most people (hyperbole, calm the fuck down, mods) see this as instinctual. They want to mate, they mate. It's almost animalistic in nature. For those of us born with inferior genetics, this is much more difficult. We are attempting to trick those already made to breed into thinking we are one of them. Deception is the only way for any man or woman who does not have the instinct for it. It's sad, but true. All of the Doc's advice is about deception, but mostly about deceiving ourselves, inducing insanity so that we can't be found out as the inferior frauds we are.

Dude Glides, sup with the mod-aggression there? Is that like that friend-group-is-aggressive thing coming up? Comes off a bit oddly in other contexts.

nearly_takuan wrote:
Andrew Corvero wrote:I think that most people have problems with relationships, just not in the same way. Some people may not have problems with attracting partners for sex (that you know of: never underestimate how your negative biases against yourself can make you see others as much more successful than they are).

Decent points across the rest of what you've said here, but I think you are overestimating us, too.

Because if someone has problems "not in the same way," that indicates to me that they are also not really problems with the same thing. Someone else's idea of what "problems with relationships" looks like is going to be different from mine. Maybe they aren't getting as much sex as they'd like. Maybe they only rarely get a second date. Both cases qualify as "successful" with the expectations I've learned to have for myself, so it's not assuming they're "more successful than they are" so much as using a different unit of measurement with a different zero; I'm not really thinking about what's involved in melting water, because I'm still trying to melt Mercury.

Sure, maybe for you, and sure, for some other people, but this isn't universal either. Additionally, placing problems on a scale - especially in such a personal area as dating - isn't very empathetic. Sure, you're using a different zero-point, but you're also making assumptions / conclusions about how you would feel in their place (ie, you would feel successful), and it's pretty dismissive to respond to them as though they are successful if they don't agree, however you think you would feel in their place. Obviously, you can't be in their place.

Glides wrote:
In a romantic or sexual context, you are demonstrating your own personal value (yeah yeah I know it's PUA crap but it's not gonna go that far, I promise. Strictly unisex). You are attempting to convince another person you have sexual potential, through your personal appearance (muscles, thinness, health) and personality (confidence, sociability, charm). You're configurating your own settings, as it were, to convince someone else that fornicating with you is a good idea, that it will be pleasurable for them.

So I think you're casting your troubles as the State of the Universe here, Glides. Which, of course it is for you, but you're making some broad claims, and they might look more addressable if you can re-contextualize them as your struggles rather than They Way The World Works - because something you struggle with might be conquered if you can gain some new skills or new ways of interacting, whereas something that's just almost impossible in general isn't worth the trouble trying to achieve (for many people - if you don't fall into that cognitive trap, you might have a better chance at success without addressing that assumption that the difficulty is just inherent).

For example, I think that "getting sex", "getting romance" and "getting friends" are different skill-sets with different areas of overlap. Some people have trouble with all of them. Some people have trouble with one, some people have trouble with all of them, people have different specific troubles. These levels of trouble and what area they're with aren't consistent across the population. Some might be easily fixed, some people can go about getting what they want in a way that works around their particular deficiencies, some are more intractable and might prevent much connection with anyone until addressed over a long period of time with a lot of raging against the machine. Some people might be great at getting sex, but horrible at making connections. So they are different problems with high intersectionality, and intersectionality with things that aren't problems - like what you want out of a relationship. Therefore, it's difficult to say "oh, this is an easy thing to do, and this is almost impossible" - it's way more complicated than that. Which is scary, but since it's such a complex system, the only truly predictive condition is whether you choose to engage with the system.

Not sure if that makes much sense.

But, on a slightly related note - Glides I was wondering if you had ever read Creativity, Inc? It's a book by Ed Catmull, one of the founders of Pixar, and it's about managing both creative people but also creative processes, and how to like manage risk about creative endeavours in your own head, and it sort of twigged for me with your posts about film school. It does take a pretty positive and "this is doable" approach, but it is also really really practical and specific, and gets lots of raves that other business-management-y books do not.

Andrew - to be more on topic - yes, I totally have found that in situations that make me anxious. Have you(or others) found ways to trick yourself into not looking down? Sometimes I find just not giving myself time to look down helps.
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Post by Andrew Corvero on Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:15 am

Andrew - to be more on topic - yes, I totally have found that in situations that make me anxious. Have you(or others) found ways to trick yourself into not looking down? Sometimes I find just not giving myself time to look down helps.

Not giving myself time to overthink things helps a lot. I also found out that an informal gathering where people are having fun talking to each other or knowing people though friends or even just being able to crack a joke makes it far easier for me to approach people than, say, a formal dinner or party.

Nothing makes me more anxious than a place where you're supposed to wear a suit.
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Post by Guest on Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:17 pm

Andrew Corvero wrote:
I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree with you on this. I think that most people have problems with relationships, just not in the same way. Some people may not have problems with attracting partners for sex (that you know of: never underestimate how your negative biases against yourself can make you see others as much more successful than they are). However this doesn't mean that their relationships are satisfying or emotionally fulfilling.

Speaking from an entirely biased perspective, emotional fulfillment seems to mean about jack shit in the long run. I'm not speaking of an abusive relationship, I'm speaking about relationships in people are bored with each other or tolerate each other, so the majority of them. You have a minority that are emotionally fulfilling, a percentage that's abusive (I don't know the stats and I don't have the patience to research it), and then the rest. This ranges from "eh they're OK" (at best) to "I can't do any better" (at worst). This is assuming neither person does anything to undermine the other mentally. I'm counting flirting with other people or trying to one-up each other as abusive for the sake of time. It's not even remotely precise, but it's Glides' Half-Assed Relationship Mapper Thing.

Considering how rarely a truly emotionally fulfilling relationship actually happens for most (and I'll be nice and say that everyone has an equal chance of both getting one and not getting one), I don't see it as a good measurement for anyone's own potential. Yeah, sure, don't get with anyone you aren't attracted to yourself, so it's still more about quality than quantity.

A more "accurate" way to look at it is measuring quantity versus quality of romantic/sexual partners. You're gonna get looked down on if you hook up with someone you're not attracted to out of desperation. If that's the only circumstance in which you can get a high number of sex partners, there isn't much to be impressed about there (and it's entirely about one-upping your mates, really. Again, fulfillment means nothing if almost no one has it, it's like saying only the billionaires deserve to live). If you are able to have a high number of sex partners and you're attracted to all of them, that gives you a degree of social power you can't get any other way. If you've only slept with beautiful people and you had to pay all of them, nothing impressive about that. Totally fine to do all of that, not dissing sex workers (they are unbelievably courageous people and have a higher tolerance for disgusting things than Mike Rowe, I have an extreme respect for that).

Now obviously, saying that fulfillment never happens at any capacity is unrealistic, because it does. Couples just like a warm body to hold at night, someone to trick them into thinking they've got worth for a few minutes a day. Psychologically this is all there for reproductive purposes, because if desperation didn't exist, humanity would go extinct. You need people to trick each other, and be tricked, in order for the whole reproduction thing to work. Yeah it's all "evo-psych babble," but I don't know a damn thing about the subject and I'm using my own twisted logic to make sense of it all.

So the couples will tolerate each other, because the attraction is definitely there for the first year, and for a while longer if you're lucky. It goes away, one ditches the other, the cycle begins anew. It's sort of a modified Red Pill thinking, because the Red Pill only looks at it from a "women are evil" perspective, when the real answer is that "literally everyone is evil." People manipulate each other, it's what people are best at. The Red Pillers blame women, the SJWs blame men, everyone is wrong. That way, neither gender is inferior, and I'm not going around saying that women can't be virgins or all the crap I used to say when I first got here.

I forgot where I was going with this, I got increasingly stupid as I wrote this.

Right, main point: who the fuck cares how fulfilled you are (you being the general population)? No one does. Empty sex is preferable to none at all and so on.


Also I don't think that it's a matter of "inferior genetics" and "tricking" but of social and psychological skills that for one reason or another someone learns early and some has to struggle with. I don't think that those skills are always genetic in origin: a hostile environment (i.e. bullying) can stunt emotional and social growth.

You seem to be having a pretty pessimistic attitude towards learning dating skills; while I don't judge you for that I think that a negative attitude might undermine your efforts.

You're not "a fraud". You're a learner. Do you think that people who want to get in a better shape are frauds, too?

I'm gonna tiptoe around that subject carefully, because answering that with no tact is gonna seriously piss people off, and deservedly so. So if I say something offensive, it's not meant to be as such, I swear.

Someone born with Down syndrome or something like that is genetically inferior to anyone who doesn't have a mental disorder. You base genetic superiority on function. An Olympic athlete is superior to me, and so on. Like, does that make the person with Down syndrome a bad person? Of course not. Bad luck doesn't make anyone bad, he's just born with physical and mental deformities. And I know we've got the whole "EVERYONE IS BEAUTIFUL" thing about folks with mental disorders (and it should be that way, they shouldn't be shamed for it any more than I should be shamed for being a Jew. You can't help how you're born), but the underlying subtext is "you better not figure out you're worse off physically than we are." This is why the parents of children with whatever the PC way to say "retarded" is get so offended when people say that word. They don't want the kids figuring out they're different from everyone else. Damn good reason to get offended, I'd say.

What I'm getting at here, without trying to offend any kids with mental disorders and failing miserably at it, is that a virgin past a certain point is inferior. Doesn't make said virgin a bad person (Elliot Rodger was bad in spite of being a virgin, despite what the media said. And if you remember, they called him the Virgin Killer and it bugged the hell out of me). Does it make me a bad person? Well I am a bad person, but again, it's despite the virgin thing. I'm just bad because that's my nature. Ignoring any further self-deprecation, calling an adult virgin inferior is like calling someone with Down syndrome inferior: offensive but true. They are deficient in a particular way. Obviously the one with Down syndrome has it far far far far far far worse off than me, not saying for a second that the two are comparable. But saying so doesn't make someone bad, it's more of an observation of "oh, you have a disadvantage." Not really a judgment of the person as a whole, it's not to say that they'll never lose it. But they'll be behind and suffer for it. The virgins on this forum are quite nice people, and I do like talking to them and interacting with them. And I'd confidently say that the majority of them definitely have a pretty good shot at catching up with the rest of society by the virtue of sheer charm and charisma, an advantage most virgins don't possess.

Does it make them bad people? No, they're all very nice people who deserve the best in life. Are we inferior? Oh hell yes we are. Like a man with no legs, like a burn victim, like anyone else who does not have full proper function. Is being a virgin while having full physical and mental function worse than not having them? Of course not, I should thank my fucking stars everything is mostly there. Which sounds awful, I know. There's no way to write my thoughts on this without pissing everyone off and getting banned, but I wanna get my thought process in there. As I've said a billion times before, I sincerely don't want to offend anyone and I'm deeply sorry if I do.

My final point: if virginity wasn't a disadvantage (it's not a disability, I'm just using disabled folks as a very politically incorrect comparison), then there would be no shame in it. And we can pretend all we want that society accepts virgins: it doesn't outside of extremist religious groups, and those fuckers just like to use the concept to demonize women. And this is ignoring all of the madonna-whore complex bullshit people use to shame women for their sexual exploration, I know, and women are called sluts for having sex, all of that. Buncha shit I'm ignoring, lotta variables and complex stuff I don't remember off the top of my head. The issue by itself is too complex to be written as black-and-white as I've written it, I just don't know how else to express it.



kath wrote:

So I think you're casting your troubles as the State of the Universe here, Glides. Which, of course it is for you, but you're making some broad claims, and they might look more addressable if you can re-contextualize them as your struggles rather than They Way The World Works - because something you struggle with might be conquered if you can gain some new skills or new ways of interacting, whereas something that's just almost impossible in general isn't worth the trouble trying to achieve (for many people - if you don't fall into that cognitive trap, you might have a better chance at success without addressing that assumption that the difficulty is just inherent).

Undoubtedly, I don't know how to reconcile my own personal experience into a way that makes it all easy to comprehend on a "macro" level. That giant monologue up there was my latest attempt at it, and I highly doubt it came off like it. I dunno, I write a certain way that gets people mad, and there's some weird disconnect because I don't know how to write it in a way that won't piss people off. I already don't interact with people well past mere small-talk and I'm always separated mentally from literally everyone else. Not even in a "ha-ha I'm a genius" way, because film school has proven that I'm nowhere near that good, but in a "you are inferior and people can do this shit naturally" kinda way.

For example, I think that "getting sex", "getting romance" and "getting friends" are different skill-sets with different areas of overlap. Some people have trouble with all of them. Some people have trouble with one, some people have trouble with all of them, people have different specific troubles. These levels of trouble and what area they're with aren't consistent across the population. Some might be easily fixed, some people can go about getting what they want in a way that works around their particular deficiencies, some are more intractable and might prevent much connection with anyone until addressed over a long period of time with a lot of raging against the machine. Some people might be great at getting sex, but horrible at making connections. So they are different problems with high intersectionality, and intersectionality with things that aren't problems - like what you want out of a relationship. Therefore, it's difficult to say "oh, this is an easy thing to do, and this is almost impossible" - it's way more complicated than that. Which is scary, but since it's such a complex system, the only truly predictive condition is whether you choose to engage with the system.

That's not saying that obtaining sex is a cakewalk for most. It's a cakewalk for very few (like, I dunno, James Deen or something? Seems pretty easy for him. Besides, porn is entirely populated for the people for whom obtaining sex is a cakewalk. But then there's the slut shaming to counter that, so I wouldn't wanna work in that business even if I had the body and cock for it).

There's always that degree of fear and insecurity for most people, but what distinguishes "most" from "me" is this statement that I've heard from a lot of people: "It's OK, I'll find someone new eventually." They understand they have a degree of attractiveness and positive qualities to offer because they've already been with people. The bad experiences have been learning experiences. There isn't a single late bloomer who has ever said this (and it's biased because I don't know every person on the planet, but just bear with me here). Sure, people could lie as well as I lie. I've constructed my entire life to be a lie just so I could have acquaintances to spend time with. And you could say that's the reason why I assume all interactions have to be manipulations, because it's been the only way to ever get people to spend time around me: pretend, lie, exaggerate. I think everyone does that to an extent.

Still, to a degree it's true that sex is power. Reproduction is the sole purpose of existing, which means being able to reproduce often (while obviously almost never actually doing that because condoms) is the biggest indicator of power, and more and more "evopsych babble" to follow. And yeah, a huge amount of this is due to society and how restrictive it is, but society will not change, I highly doubt we'll ever stop hearing stories about gang rapes at fraternities and toxic masculinity and all of those nasty things, no matter how much you try. As long as humanity exists, humanity will keep doing fucked up things like that.

Once again, forgot where I was going. Right.

In a perfect world, it wouldn't matter if you were a virgin or not, any more than your race or religion or gender or orientation. People are shamed for all of these reasons.

Sorry once again if literally anything I said was brain-dead stupid.

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Post by Andrew Corvero on Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:39 pm

Right, main point: who the fuck cares how fulfilled you are (you being the general population)? No one does. Empty sex is preferable to none at all and so on.

I think that if anyone should care how fulfilled you are, that's you. Don't you care about happy you are?

Speaking from an entirely biased perspective, emotional fulfillment seems to mean about jack shit in the long run

Maybe I'm just naively optimistic, but I like having fond memories of good times even when those good times are over.

I'm not speaking of an abusive relationship, I'm speaking about relationships in people are bored with each other or tolerate each other, so the majority of them.

That's a pretty pessimistic way of looking at relationships.

If you are able to have a high number of sex partners and you're attracted to all of them, that gives you a degree of social power you can't get any other way.

Is social power the only thing you need to be happy?

Also, if you're able to have a high number of sex partners and you're attracted to all of them it's because you're attractive (well duh). But attractiveness isn't necessarily an innate trait. Good looks aren't entirely innate, even attractiveness is more than good looks.

By this I mean that people who are attractive work at being attractive. Yes, it might be far easier for some people than for others. But this doesn't mean that you can't more yourself more attractive, open to relationship and successful than you are.

It takes work, though, and it doesn't happen overnight. Every single step might be painful, but it should be considered a small step in the good direction. After all you can't climb up a flight of stairs if you don't climb up at least the first step.

Now obviously, saying that fulfillment never happens at any capacity is unrealistic, because it does. Couples just like a warm body to hold at night, someone to trick them into thinking they've got worth for a few minutes a day. Psychologically this is all there for reproductive purposes, because if desperation didn't exist, humanity would go extinct. You need people to trick each other, and be tricked, in order for the whole reproduction thing to work.

I never said that fulfillment never happens. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that. I simply said that you can't really know what goes on in other people's lives.

Pardon me if it hurts you, but I think that you might have a negative attitude towards relationships and life in general. I completely understand negativity and cynicism as a product of your suffering and your pain. You don't have to blame yourself for negativity or pessimism. It's perfectly understandable.

What I'm not sure about is whether this negative attitude is helping you. Have you ever thought that maybe it isn't? I think it's perfectly possible that it's the negative attitude and the pessimism that are holding you back.

I know that this it might sound like New Age bullshit, but I've come to believe that just a positive attitude can work wonders. If you appreciate every little victory and look at failure as a chance to learn and improve instead of as judgement about your value, one thing that you will have for sure is more energy and motivation.

People need energy and motivation in their lives, just like cars need fuel. Also, if you have a positive attitude you will have (and will be) more fun, easy to approach, you will overthink less and dare more. Those are all very attractive qualities.

Yes, improving your life is hard. Yes, changing your attitude is also hard. But I think it's better than the alternative.

My final point: if virginity wasn't a disadvantage (it's not a disability, I'm just using disabled folks as a very politically incorrect comparison), then there would be no shame in it.

People shame others for all sort of reasons. Are they all "disadvantages"? Or is it the shame itself that makes them a disadvantage?
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Post by Enail on Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:43 pm

<mod> Glides, you need to stop making claims about genetic inferiority and you need to stop it now. No matter how carefully you're trying to tiptoe around things, you're saying some really shitty stuff, and it's not acceptable here.

More generally, this is getting very off-topic, so everyone please return to flirting etc. going better when you're not thinking about it, and take anything outside of that to a new thread. Thanks! </mod>
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Post by Dan_Brodribb on Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:28 pm

Andrew Corvero wrote:There's just a general thing I've noticed about dating, flirting and approaches: they seem to work much better for me when I don't even think about them.

By this I mean that it has happened a few times that I meet someone, talk to them, joke together with them, chat for a while, hang around and/or then go to an event together without even thinking that I'm hitting on them, and then if they just behave as friends I have no problem with that and we hang out as friends, but if they show me they're interested in me in a sexual way, sometimes I find it welcome (no problem with that either) and sometimes not really because I was just thinking of them as friends (and I try to reject them as gently and indirectly as possible since it hurts me to have given them the wrong idea, even though I didn't mean to.)

On the other hand if I at any point the idea that I'm actually asking someone out pops into my brain my anxiety kicks in and I screw it up one way or another. Just the ideas "I'm going to hit on someone" "I'm going to ask them for their number" or "I'm sexually interested in this person" is enough to make me incredibly more awkward, anxious and tongue-tied.

It's like the Centipede Problem of dating: if I don't think about what I'm doing things go much better than if I stop to think about it.

Is it just me or do any other people experience this, too? Should I change something about the way I act not to lead people the wrong way? And why do things seem to go much better when I don't think about it?

I think what you're describing is normal. I used to joke that the weird thing about dating, flirting, and approaches is sometimes it feels so easy I can't understand how ANYONE would find the difficult and other times its so difficult and awkward I can't understand how our species perpetuates itself.

I'm glad you're having those effortless moments. It's nice to be able to appreciate and enjoy them.

Personally, I'm more impressed by you feeling "awkward, anxious, and tongue-tied." That's what happens to a lot of us as we move out of our comfort zone.

I've noticed that those effortless, easy moments where everything seems to flow and go right are come from repeatedly facing those awkward moments and doing things anyway even when we don't feel like doing it, don't know how to do it, and screw it up.

I mean if I put a bowl of pasta in front of you and a spoon in your hand, you probably could probably a) get food on your spoon b) bring the spoon to your face and c) get it into your mouth without losing a drop. For my 14 month old nephew...it looks like Master Chief lobbed a tomato-sauce grenade at his high chair.

Seriously. It's in his hair. His HAIR. How does that even happen?

So, yeah. Keep at it. It sounds like you're on the right track.

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Post by gaboz on Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:36 am

Dan_Brodribb wrote:
I mean if I put a bowl of pasta in front of you and a spoon in your hand, you probably could probably a) get food on your spoon b) bring the spoon to your face and c) get it into your mouth without losing a drop. For my 14 month old nephew...it looks like Master Chief lobbed a tomato-sauce grenade at his high chair.
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Dan_Brodribb wrote:I've noticed that those effortless, easy moments where everything seems to flow and go right are come from repeatedly facing those awkward moments and doing things anyway even when we don't feel like doing it, don't know how to do it, and screw it up.

I think that not feeling it is the number one culprit. Not knowing and screwing up means that at least you're willing to put in some effort. When you dont feel it...then it doesnt matter, state of mind is set to failure.

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