Freaking out. [Advice or opinions.]

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Post by Guest on Mon May 04, 2015 1:26 pm

A fellow squad mate showed me this video he found:

<mod> Video removed due to content inappropriate for this site</mod>

As expected: I AM FREAKING THE FUCK OUT!! Shocked If marriage is really like this, now I have a valid reason to be trouser-shitting terrified of women...
I am sorry but, if what the video says is true, then, with all due respect, I cannot trust women anymore. I feel like they have to prove to me that they are not evil harpies.

I know it sound bad, that's why I am asking this:

Is this a logically sound view or is it the Jerkbrain preying on my insecurities again?

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Post by Enail on Mon May 04, 2015 1:45 pm

Can't watch a video right now, so I won't comment specifically.

But women are just people, Alex. They have all the same variety of goodness/evilness that men do - some of them are wonderful human beings, some of them are horrible people, most of them have some good and some bad in them and try to be decent but sometimes land up hurting someone anyway, just like men do. I know you haven't gotten to know a lot of women well IRL, but remember that a lot of the people you're talking to here are women - I'm sure you can see that we all have different traits!

Any time you're thinking "all women are X," that's probably a fairly good sign your jerkbrain is talking - those kinds of absolutes are often a jerkbrain thing.
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Post by Andrew Corvero on Mon May 04, 2015 1:47 pm

As expected: I AM FREAKING THE FUCK OUT!! Shocked If marriage is really like this, now I have a valid reason to be trouser-shitting terrified of women...
I am sorry but, if what the video says is true, then, with all due respect, I cannot trust women anymore. I feel like they have to prove to me that they are not evil harpies.

The statistics in the video are provided without a source. Never trust statistics that seem to come from nowhere. There's lies, damn lies, and statistics.

The director is also an MRA/anti-feminist, so while that's not a reason in itself to say he's spewing bullshit he seems to be hugely biased about this issue. Biased movie directors can frame an issue in a way that's more propaganda than serious reporting.

I think that it's probably fair to say that the video is exaggerating what happens and provides only one side to the divorce/suicide connection and the relationships issues of people in the military.

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Post by eselle28 on Mon May 04, 2015 1:50 pm

Alex, I think that the part of your brain that isn't being a jerk to you knows that this probably isn't true. People who are interested in presenting information in an accurate, non-triggering way generally don't use a dramatization of an extreme and fairly uncommon situation followed by completely unsourced statistics.

I'm first going to point out something you already know, but which the video seems to gloss over because it has an MRA point of view: not all veterans are men who are married to women. The divorce rate is higher among deployed military members, but not at the levels claimed, and it's actually higher for women who have been deployed than for men in the same position. This isn't terribly surprising, as long separations tend to put stress on any marriage for all kinds of reason than women being evil harpies. My understanding is that the divorce rate is higher for service members generally, in part because they tend to marry somewhat younger than average and early marriages are generally less stable.

The suicide rate is also higher for veterans, but I've seen nothing directly connecting it to divorce and am quite skeptical of an account that pushes that rather than mental health issues as the primary cause. I'll leave it for others to find statistics on this, but I assure you that the video's claims about the court system and the economic prospects of veterans are false.
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Post by Enail on Mon May 04, 2015 1:53 pm

<mod> I had a chance to look at the video and I've taken it down, because this site is not a good place to post MRA content. Alex, I know you just put it up because you wanted to talk about it triggering your anxieties and hear what other people thought, and you're not at all in trouble, but I still didn't want an inaccurate video that expresses harmful views up on this site, so I removed it.</mod>
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Post by Guest on Mon May 04, 2015 1:53 pm

Enail wrote:Can't watch a video right now, so I won't comment specifically.

But women are just people, Alex. They have all the same variety of goodness/evilness that men do - some of them are wonderful human beings, some of them are horrible people, most of them have some good and some bad in them and try to be decent but sometimes land up hurting someone anyway, just like men do. I know you haven't gotten to know a lot of women well IRL, but remember that a lot of the people you're talking to here are women - I'm sure you can see that we all have different traits!

Any time you're thinking "all women are X," that's probably a fairly good sign your jerkbrain is talking - those kinds of absolutes are often a jerkbrain thing.

Again, with all due respect, Then how come the majority of women I meet are mean to me, Why is my mother abusive to me even to this day, Why should I trust them, Why should I prove myself to them?!

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Post by PintsizeBro on Mon May 04, 2015 2:00 pm

The video had already been removed by the time I got to this thread, but I don't need to see the video to know that it's bullshit. Women are just people, dude. They aren't a monolith, they're a bunch of individuals, and they aren't as different from men as some people would have you believe.

If a woman posted a video about Floyd Mayweather and demanded that all men prove that we aren't wife-beating scumbags like him, you'd be insulted, and rightly so. Give women the same level of trust and respect - no more, no less - that you give men.

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Post by Enail on Mon May 04, 2015 2:02 pm

Alex1989 wrote:
Again, with all due respect, Then how come the majority of women I meet are mean to me, Why is my mother abusive to me even to this day, Why should I trust them, Why should I prove myself to them?!

Unfortunately, many people, male and female, are abusive to their children. It's a really horrible thing, and I'm sorry your mother is/was abusive to you, but your mother is one person, and it doesn't make much sense to attribute her traits to all women, any more than the existence of male abusers means that all men are evil or abusive.

Since you have a lot of fear and anger about women, it might be that that's coming out when you try to interact with them and makes it hard to have a good interaction. I don't know the specifics of your experiences, and I'm not those women, so I can't say why the women you've met have been mean to you. But you've also had men be mean to you before, even bully you, right? That doesn't make you think all men are evil, does it?
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Post by eselle28 on Mon May 04, 2015 2:02 pm

Alex1989 wrote:

Again, with all due respect, Then how come the majority of women I meet are mean to me, Why is my mother abusive to me even to this day, Why should I trust them, Why should I prove myself to them?!

Your mother is abusive because she's an abusive person. Women are sometimes mean, and I'm sorry that sometimes they're mean to you. I would note, though, that you've also described times when men also weren't very kind. Human beings as a whole aren't perfect, but that's not the same thing as all women being evil harpies. I would also note that, at least here, you've run into both men and women who haven't been mean or abusive toward you. Even though people are imperfect, they're not always horrible.

You don't need to trust women if you don't want to, and you also don't need to prove yourself to them if you don't want to. It's probably better to make those decisions for your own reasons rather than because of a YouTube video made by people trying to manipulate others, though.
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Post by Guest on Mon May 04, 2015 2:07 pm

eselle28 wrote:
Alex1989 wrote:

Again, with all due respect, Then how come the majority of women I meet are mean to me, Why is my mother abusive to me even to this day, Why should I trust them, Why should I prove myself to them?!

Your mother is abusive because she's an abusive person. Women are sometimes mean, and I'm sorry that sometimes they're mean to you. I would note, though, that you've also described times when men also weren't very kind. Human beings as a whole aren't perfect, but that's not the same thing as all women being evil harpies. I would also note that, at least here, you've run into both men and women who haven't been mean or abusive toward you. Even though people are imperfect, they're not always horrible.

You don't need to trust women if you don't want to, and you also don't need to prove yourself to them if you don't want to. It's probably better to make those decisions for your own reasons rather than because of a YouTube video made by people trying to manipulate others, though.

I thought I was lonely, now I feel like a speck of dust in an empty universe... Crying

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Post by Guest on Mon May 04, 2015 2:11 pm

PintsizeBro wrote:The video had already been removed by the time I got to this thread, but I don't need to see the video to know that it's bullshit. Women are just people, dude. They aren't a monolith, they're a bunch of individuals, and they aren't as different from men as some people would have you believe.

If a woman posted a video about Floyd Mayweather and demanded that all men prove that we aren't wife-beating scumbags like him, you'd be insulted, and rightly so. Give women the same level of trust and respect - no more, no less - that you give men.

Off topic: Please don't mention him, I saw the Mayweather-Pacqiao match, I was very disappointed with the results... Disapproving

On-topic: I'm sorry but [Citation Needed]

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Post by Andrew Corvero on Mon May 04, 2015 2:13 pm

eselle28 wrote:The suicide rate is also higher for veterans, but I've seen nothing directly connecting it to divorce and am quite skeptical of an account that pushes that rather than mental health issues as the primary cause. I'll leave it for others to find statistics on this, but I assure you that the video's claims about the court system and the economic prospects of veterans are false.

Here's a link to a scientific paper about suicide in veterans.

Although all the examined psychiatric diagnoses were associated with elevated risk of suicide in veterans, results indicate that men with bipolar disorder and women with substance use disorders are at particularly elevated risk for suicide.

It seems like mental health and substance abuse are a huge risk for suicide in veterans. but I haven't found any serious scientific paper that points out to divorce alone as a risk for suicide in veterans. The closest thing I've got is this article which shows that divorce is a risk for suicide among veterans, but not THE ultimate risk factor, which seems to be emotional pain in general.

Divorce can be painful to everyone and is a risk factor for suicide, but I have found no serious study that shows that it's a worse risk factor for military veterans than for the general population. On the other hand mental health issues due to the stress of military service and substance abuse seem to be the leading cause of veteran suicide.

According to this other article a "known failure of intimate or spousal relationship" (which include divorces, separations or simply breakups) was present only in 46% of suicides in the military (less than a half) while a "known behavioral health disorder" was a factor in 64% of them, along with "misuse of prescription drugs" (also 64%).

Being in the military is a stressful job that separates couples and put some serious strain on their relationships, and breakups are always painful. But the claims of the video aren't supported by any serious scientific study.

TL;DR: The video is mostly BS.

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Post by Guest on Mon May 04, 2015 2:15 pm

Enail wrote:
Alex1989 wrote:
Again, with all due respect, Then how come the majority of women I meet are mean to me, Why is my mother abusive to me even to this day, Why should I trust them, Why should I prove myself to them?!

Unfortunately, many people, male and female, are abusive to their children. It's a really horrible thing, and I'm sorry your mother is/was abusive to you, but your mother is one person, and it doesn't make much sense to attribute her traits to all women, any more than the existence of male abusers means that all men are evil or abusive.

Since you have a lot of fear and anger about women, it might be that that's coming out when you try to interact with them and makes it hard to have a good interaction. I don't know the specifics of your experiences, and I'm not those women, so I can't say why the women you've met have been mean to you. But you've also had men be mean to you before, even bully you, right? That doesn't make you think all men are evil, does it?

With respect: That's what 25 years of abuse and cruelty from women does to someone.

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Post by Enail on Mon May 04, 2015 2:19 pm

Hey, Alex, it sounds like your jerkbrain is acting up pretty hard, so I'd really appreciate it if you could try to cool down a little before responding to this topic. I can see you're upset by it, and I'd like to be able to talk about it without us all jumping down each others throats or saying insulting things, which can be hard when jerkbrain is active!

One thing that would help a lot is if you could remember: I'm a woman. A lot of the other people here who've been talking to you all this time, been listening and trying to give advice and sharing with you their experiences, they're women too. So when you say that you need proof before you're willing to consider that women might be individuals, it makes it kind of hard to talk about it with you, because, well, I am an individual, just like you are, and I hope that when you're talking to me you know that. I'd feel pretty sad if you didn't actually believe I was a regular person, just some sort of subcategory of evil harpies. Do you see what I mean?
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Post by Andrew Corvero on Mon May 04, 2015 2:21 pm

Alex1989 wrote:
eselle28 wrote:
Alex1989 wrote:

Again, with all due respect, Then how come the majority of women I meet are mean to me, Why is my mother abusive to me even to this day, Why should I trust them, Why should I prove myself to them?!

Your mother is abusive because she's an abusive person. Women are sometimes mean, and I'm sorry that sometimes they're mean to you. I would note, though, that you've also described times when men also weren't very kind. Human beings as a whole aren't perfect, but that's not the same thing as all women being evil harpies. I would also note that, at least here, you've run into both men and women who haven't been mean or abusive toward you. Even though people are imperfect, they're not always horrible.

You don't need to trust women if you don't want to, and you also don't need to prove yourself to them if you don't want to. It's probably better to make those decisions for your own reasons rather than because of a YouTube video made by people trying to manipulate others, though.

I thought I was lonely, now I feel like a speck of dust in an empty universe... Crying

If it makes you feel better, you're not. Parental abuse is horrible and sadly many of us have suffered it. Parents can be horrible to their children. I know it far too well: my father was a very abusive person (in many ways) before he left my family. I still have trust issues because of him, I have suffered nightmares, bouts of anxiety, and I'm desperately wishing and doing whatever I can so I will never become like him.

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Post by Guest on Mon May 04, 2015 2:27 pm

Enail wrote:Hey, Alex, it sounds like your jerkbrain is acting up pretty hard, so I'd really appreciate it if you could try to cool down a little before responding to this topic. I can see you're upset by it, and I'd like to be able to talk about it without us all jumping down each others throats or saying insulting things, which can be hard when jerkbrain is active!

One thing that would help a lot is if you could remember: I'm a woman. A lot of the other people here who've been talking to you all this time, been listening and trying to give advice and sharing with you their experiences, they're women too. So when you say that you need proof before you're willing to consider that women might be individuals, it makes it kind of hard to talk about it with you, because, well, I am an individual, just like you are, and I hope that when you're talking to me you know that. I'd feel pretty sad if you didn't actually believe I was a regular person, just some sort of subcategory of evil harpies. Do you see what I mean?

Yes.


Logging off... Crying

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Post by Guest on Mon May 04, 2015 2:27 pm

eselle28 wrote:
The suicide rate is also higher for veterans, but I've seen nothing directly connecting it to divorce and am quite skeptical of an account that pushes that rather than mental health issues as the primary cause. I'll leave it for others to find statistics on this, but I assure you that the video's claims about the court system and the economic prospects of veterans are false.

I think the last thing on a veteran's mind (at least vets who've seen combat) is his divorce when he's suffering from PTSD. American Sniper, for all it's controversy, I think portrays the stress and tension that remains in service members when they come back home from extended tours of duty and how those guys need help. I didn't get a chance to see the video Alex posted, but from the sound of it, it sounds pretty shitty that somebody is correlating service member's tragic suicides to divorce.

I know there's a chance/likelihood that somebody would commit suicide after a divorce, but I don't think divorce is the direct cause of it. So, I will err on the side of skepticism.

Enail wrote:<mod> I had a chance to look at the video and I've taken it down, because this site is not a good place to post MRA content. Alex, I know you just put it up because you wanted to talk about it triggering your anxieties and hear what other people thought, and you're not at all in trouble, but I still didn't want an inaccurate video that expresses harmful views up on this site, so I removed it.</mod>

Damn, I missed it. D:

Alex1989 wrote:
Again, with all due respect, Then how come the majority of women I meet are mean to me, Why is my mother abusive to me even to this day, Why should I trust them, Why should I prove myself to them?!

That's aaaalmost me as well. But women have gotten way kinder to me since high school. When I was in school from about 3rd grade to... 8th grade I had to endure some hellfire from girls and I don't know why. Today, only female friends can be mean to me and that's kinda how they show their affection towards me sometimes, we have weird push/pull dynamics. Razz

I don't have an answer as to why they're mean to you, or why even your mother is abusive. You don't have to prove shit, but you also don't have to take their shit either. Remember how some people have said "set and enforce your boundaries", try it. So, for example if a random woman says something mean to you, shrug your shoulders and walk away. If you're on the phone and mom is talking shit, hangup the phone and walk away, you're a grown ass man and don't really need that kind of toxicity in your life if you're already on edge about stuff. Razz Or you can tell mom, "Hey, can you, stop talking to me like that? If you keep going I'm gonna hang up." IDK, be creative but don't stoop to their level of mean-ness.

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Post by Enail on Mon May 04, 2015 2:32 pm

Alex1989 wrote:Yes.


Logging off... Crying

Hey, hope you know I'm not upset with you or anything. I know this is a really distressing topic for you, and that you're not meaning to hurt anyone's feelings, just it seemed like it might be easier for everyone to understand each other and talk in a helpful way if you took a few minutes to cool off a bit. We'll keep talking when you're ready! Smile
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Post by Guest on Mon May 04, 2015 2:40 pm

Enail wrote:
Alex1989 wrote:Yes.


Logging off... Crying

Hey, hope you know I'm not upset with you or anything. I know this is a really distressing topic for you, and that you're not meaning to hurt anyone's feelings, just it seemed like it might be easier for everyone to understand each other and talk in a helpful way if you took a few minutes to cool off a bit. We'll keep talking when you're ready! Smile

Oh...

I got a major Hedgehogs Dilemma, do I?

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Post by Enail on Mon May 04, 2015 2:45 pm

Maybe so.
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Post by Andrew Corvero on Mon May 04, 2015 2:46 pm

Damn, I missed it. D:

I don't think you missed much, it was mostly a mix of statistics pulled out of nowhere, over-dramatization of some cases and some "women are evil and they will take your money" MRA propaganda.

Not to mention that the women who were married to those veterans are portrayed as invisible sources of woe and misery who ruin lives only because "they're unhappy" and want money and their stories and reasons were conveniently left out of the picture. Not manipulative at all. Suspect

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Post by Guest on Mon May 04, 2015 3:06 pm

Andrew Corvero wrote:
Damn, I missed it. D:

I don't think you missed much, it was mostly a mix of statistics pulled out of nowhere, over-dramatization of some cases and some "women are evil and they will take your money" MRA propaganda.

Not to mention that the women who were married to those veterans are portrayed as invisible sources of woe and misery who ruin lives only because "they're unhappy" and want money and their stories and reasons were conveniently left out of the picture. Not manipulative at all. Suspect

Why is it MRA propa.... *Finds A Voice For Men article on the video*


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Post by Guest on Mon May 04, 2015 3:07 pm

Andrew Corvero wrote:
I don't think you missed much, it was mostly a mix of statistics pulled out of nowhere, over-dramatization of some cases and some "women are evil and they will take your money" MRA propaganda.

Not to mention that the women who were married to those veterans are portrayed as invisible sources of woe and misery who ruin lives only because "they're unhappy" and want money and their stories and reasons were conveniently left out of the picture. Not manipulative at all. Suspect

I figured as much. Razz

EDIT:
Alex1989 wrote:
Why is it MRA propa.... *Finds A Voice For Men article on the video*


prop·a·gan·da
ˌpräpəˈɡandə/
noun
noun: propaganda; noun: Propaganda

1.
derogatory
information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.

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Post by Guest on Mon May 04, 2015 3:20 pm

The Mikey wrote:
Andrew Corvero wrote:
I don't think you missed much, it was mostly a mix of statistics pulled out of nowhere, over-dramatization of some cases and some "women are evil and they will take your money" MRA propaganda.

Not to mention that the women who were married to those veterans are portrayed as invisible sources of woe and misery who ruin lives only because "they're unhappy" and want money and their stories and reasons were conveniently left out of the picture. Not manipulative at all. Suspect

I figured as much. Razz

EDIT:
Alex1989 wrote:
Why is it MRA propa.... *Finds A Voice For Men article on the video*


prop·a·gan·da
ˌpräpəˈɡandə/
noun
noun: propaganda; noun: Propaganda

   1.
   derogatory
   information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.

I know what it means, I was meaning to post that now I know the vid is propaganda, You saw the scream vid, did you? Razz

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Post by Andrew Corvero on Mon May 04, 2015 3:37 pm

Alex1989 wrote:

<snip>
I know what it means, I was meaning to post that now I know the vid is propaganda, You saw the scream vid, did you? Razz

This gif is also an appropriate response to AVFM:


Freaking out. [Advice or opinions.] Giphy

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