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Post by Guest on Fri May 08, 2015 12:26 pm

No, I'm not advocating any of that. But I wanted to discuss it because it's been on my mind.

Only PUA thing I've been reading, just to remind myself of all the dumb shit I tried in undergrad, was The Game.

So reading it again reminded me of the really awkward year in which I tried to apply these principles over and over again and failed harder and harder until I became notorious for being horrible with women and frequently bullied over it.

Negging would just offend people, trying "kino" (random physical contact) would creep girls out. I would get no indicators of interest, nothing. And for some reason I did this for a year straight, my greatest success being allowed to go to second base with a girl I wasn't even attracted to (I wanted to sleep with her friend and I don't remember how things turned out like that).

I suppose what got me angriest in the end is the fact that nothing was working, and that I was worse off with people than when I hadn't done anything. I blamed my age and my looks and my virginity, everything. I got really fucking bitter.

So reading back, how the fuck were these people able to succeed? Who knows. I've concluded a long time ago that trying that sort of shit wouldn't even work. A small part of me still wants to believe that women can be solved like a math equation, that by doing X you get Y. If only, if only it were so simple.

I think the coworker was the last chance I had, honestly. If not for my friend pretending I was a sex god, she never would've even noticed me. It was like being able to direct a Star Wars film with no experience.

Pretty sure my jerkbrain has defeated me for good, because the first thought in my mind upon waking up, which has gone on for four hours straight so far, is:

"You're going to die a virgin."

"You're going to die a virgin."

"You're going to die a virgin."

"VIRGIN VIRGIN VIRGIN VIRGIN FUCKING VIRGIN."

What can I say? This is where I'm meant to be. I'll be complaining about this somewhere for the rest of my life, it's only my destiny.

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Post by Enail on Fri May 08, 2015 1:07 pm

I think there are a few reasons PUAs may have success from PUAing:

-Some PUA techniques seem to be just breaking down some pretty standard social skills, (often making weird rules and overcomplicated processes along the way). If the PUA guideline is one that makes sense to the person in question, focuses on a social skill that they lacked but already had the other skills necessary to make it work, or allows them to successfully emulate some aspects of the social skill that people find appealing even if they don't fully understand what they're doing, that's an improvement for that person, even if not the most efficient way to learn it.

-many PUAs encourage a lot of meeting people, practicing social skill and, asking people out. Sometimes practicing the wrong way or without deep understanding can be counter-productive (it sounds like this might be what was happening with you), but in general, practicing interacting with people improves social skills, and meeting more people and asking them out improves odds.  Just because they provide some weird rules or harmful attitudes along with it doesn't necessarily mean the practice doesn't help.

-some PUAs are essentially teaching people how to be better predators, how to identify vulnerable targets and how to use pressure and manipulation and sometimes outright abuse to get them to have sex with you. Getting their penis into someone's vagina is what they consider success, not sex with someone who genuinely wants to have sex with you and is in a position to freely make that choice.

It sounds like you were applying some PUA "techniques" without the social awareness to be able to tell when and how it's appropriate and potentially appealing. Whether or not you give it a funny name, touching can be a good way to demonstrate and encourage attraction, but you have to be able to recognize cues and context enough to only do it in ways where it might be welcome. Similarly, negging can be being an asshole because you believe women need to be taken down a peg...but if you take away that adversarial, mean mindset and add in care for and awareness of the other person's feelings, it might be just friendly teasing. I think this is pretty much what DNL tries to teach.

From what you describe, you didn't have much ability to read cues then or have the social skills to have a comfortable neutral interaction and were probably touching people who didn't want to be touched and insulting people in ways that seemed rude or mean. I get the impression that you've developed a lot of social skills since then, can now pretty confidently identify and adopt the norms of a social situation, and are better at reading cues, even if it's something you still have trouble with. I can't say I'd recommend taking up PUA again, but you might find that identifying a few very narrow social skills that are just outside your current skill level and practicing them in ways that are socially appropriate and aware would be effective for you.
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Post by BasedBuzzed on Fri May 08, 2015 1:16 pm

Can you give an estimate on the number of girls you might have tried it on? Did you try anything besides negging/kino? Besides PUA routinely exaggerating their numbers(read Aaron Sleazy for a good takedown of it), they often flit through a lot of clubs and hop from girl to girl. Look at it the numbers they brag about from that perspective. Also, who knows whether or not you would have gotten to second base if you didn't approach a lot but instead didn't do anything?

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Post by Gentleman Johnny on Fri May 08, 2015 3:51 pm

Glides wrote:

So reading back, how the fuck were these people able to succeed?

1. Numbers, numbers, numbers. If you go up to a dozen people a day, you're going to find someone who gives you a phone number (not necessarily theirs) to get you to go away and one a week who is actually a perfect fit for what you're doing.

2. Venue. This is a series of techniques designed to work on a specific type of person. What works in Beverly Hills and LA clubs doesn't necessarily work at the campus cafeteria.

3. Actual self improvement. Technique aside, these guys started dressing better, working out, practicing building rapport, working on their self confidence etc. Style doesn't focus on that as much but its most likely where the lasting benefits came from.

4. In spite of themselves.  Style's future wife didn't fall for his PUA bullshit at all. She constantly out "gamed" him because she saw a decent human being who was genuinely a good match underneath the bullshit techniques. Once he got his head out of his ass, he figured it out, too.

Yes, I read The Game while I was living with a hippie commune. I'd spend a few hours a day in Barnes And Noble just grabbing whatever caught my eye and reading it in the coffee shop. I also finished The Prestige and The Alchemist this way.

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Post by Andrew Corvero on Fri May 08, 2015 5:44 pm

Did you try anything besides negging/kino? Besides PUA routinely exaggerating their numbers

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Post by Andrew Corvero on Fri May 08, 2015 5:52 pm

Gentleman Johnny wrote:
Glides wrote:

So reading back, how the fuck were these people able to succeed?

1. Numbers, numbers, numbers. If you go up to a dozen people a day, you're going to find someone who gives you a phone number (not necessarily theirs) to get you to go away and one a week who is actually a perfect fit for what you're doing.

2. Venue. This is a series of techniques designed to work on a specific type of person. What works in Beverly Hills and LA clubs doesn't necessarily work at the campus cafeteria.

3. Actual self improvement. Technique aside, these guys started dressing better, working out, practicing building rapport, working on their self confidence etc. Style doesn't focus on that as much but its most likely where the lasting benefits came from.

4. In spite of themselves.  Style's future wife didn't fall for his PUA bullshit at all. She constantly out "gamed" him because she saw a decent human being who was genuinely a good match underneath the bullshit techniques. Once he got his head out of his ass, he figured it out, too.

Yes, I read The Game while I was living with a hippie commune. I'd spend a few hours a day in Barnes And Noble just grabbing whatever caught my eye and reading it in the coffee shop. I also finished The Prestige and The Alchemist this way.

I think that 1 and 3 may be the main reason why those tactics worked. Especially 1. A friend of mine (not a PUA, incidentally) just keeps approaching every woman he meets at parties, in bars, at the disco and basically wherever it's socially acceptable to approach women. He's average to bad looking, but dresses fairly well, takes care of himself and is rather good at flirting.

He's routinely rejected by most of them but since he has learnt not to care a single bit about rejection (he just says "OK, I guess I'm not the right guy for you" and moves on) and he keeps approaching basically every girl he sees sooner or later he finds someone who's in the mood for some fun with him.

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Post by The Wisp on Fri May 08, 2015 8:47 pm

Yes, I read The Game while I was living with a hippie commune. I'd spend a few hours a day in Barnes And Noble just grabbing whatever caught my eye and reading it in the coffee shop.

I haven't read it, but my understanding is that The Game actually is a critique of PUA culture from somebody who was in it, right? So I'm always surprised when people seem to treat it like a seduction manual.
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Post by Gentleman Johnny on Fri May 08, 2015 8:53 pm

Its sort of both. He's quite up front about the techniques, how they worked for him and the fun he had. He's just also not shy about the warning signs, the disappointment and how he eventually met someone he really loved who he never would have met without going through it.

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Post by Guest on Sat May 09, 2015 1:35 am

Enail wrote:

It sounds like you were applying some PUA "techniques" without the social awareness to be able to tell when and how it's appropriate and potentially appealing. Whether or not you give it a funny name, touching can be a good way to demonstrate and encourage attraction, but you have to be able to recognize cues and context enough to only do it in ways where it might be welcome. Similarly, negging can be being an asshole because you believe women need to be taken down a peg...but if you take away that adversarial, mean mindset and add in care for and awareness of the other person's feelings, it might be just friendly teasing. I think this is pretty much what DNL tries to teach.

From what you describe, you didn't have much ability to read cues then or have the social skills to have a comfortable neutral interaction and were probably touching people who didn't want to be touched and insulting people in ways that seemed rude or mean. I get the impression that you've developed a lot of social skills since then, can now pretty confidently identify and adopt the norms of a social situation, and are better at reading cues, even if it's something you still have trouble with. I can't say I'd recommend taking up PUA again, but you might find that identifying a few very narrow social skills that are just outside your current skill level and practicing them in ways that are socially appropriate and aware would be effective for you.

Yeah, I'm definitely much more in tune with people's body language and how to react. I still have fuckups, I know when I have because people give me that classic "what the fuck was that?" look. Luckily it happens much less often now, which is a godsend.

I wasn't even "negging" women because I wanted to offend them, I just had no idea how to articulate a teasing tone that indicated that I didn't really mean it. I genuinely wanted them to think I was funny, but since my tone was more or less dead, it came off like an insult, and being insulted by a stranger is just horrifying. I offended a lot of women by accident this way. They'd storm off and I'd get really confused because I couldn't recognize how it was my tone that was the problem and not what I was saying.

Back then I'd just conclude that women were easily offended, so fuck em.

I don't actually cold approach women anymore, regardless of whether or not my social skills have improved since then. Socially I'm able to do it perfectly, but the second it's a sexual interest, my brain goes into panic mode, and I inevitably fail via self-fulfilling prophecy (awkwardness, insecurity, nervousness, the holy trinity of What Women Hate For Good Fucking Reason).

I'm literally shuddering looking back on how stupid I was. I'm still scared shitless of approaching pretty girls, boo hoo.

BasedBuzzed wrote:Can you give an estimate on the number of girls you might have tried it on? Did you try anything besides negging/kino? Besides PUA routinely exaggerating their numbers(read Aaron Sleazy for a good takedown of it), they often flit through a lot of clubs and hop from girl to girl. Look at it the numbers they brag about from that perspective. Also, who knows whether or not you would have gotten to second base if you didn't approach a lot but instead didn't do anything?

God I don't even remember, I was literally approaching strangers to pull this crap, and after many, many rejections (all of which I absolutely deserved, in hindsight), I developed an even bigger fear of attractive women than before, to the point where it's escalated into a literal phobia. The only exceptions are girls I was forced to interact with by chance, and eventually developing a "resistance" to them through accidental exposure therapy.

Case in point: girl in my directing class that I was absolutely petrified of when I first met her, because the proper word for her is "lovely." I would turn beet red and avoid her at any given opportunity when we first met. But we were forced to interact being in a few classes together, and now we're casual acquaintances and the beet-red has reduced to a flutter in my stomach whenever I see her. Since she's not the only person inducing this reaction, it's not a one-nitis thing. Yeah she's on a pedestal, yeah she's flawed as hell (she's an evangelical Christian, ouchies). I'm not mentally undressing her or anything nasty like that (seriously, that's one of those few "alpha male" thingies I don't actually do), just a casual "goddammit she's out of my league" and then casual conversation. We get on OK, chances of getting with her are in the negative digits (negative because she knows I'm a Jew, and I'm going to start pretending that I'm not one because it's really fucking annoying being asked about it), I've accepted that and I'm not bitter.

Case in point, I have a phobia. Being physically unattractive with a phobia doesn't help. With a deformity (let's play Glides Doesn't Look Like Freddy Krueger's Love Child, guys!), with the virginity, with the Jewiness, with the pale skin and the gorilla babyface and so many other things, makes the phobia near impossible to cross unless friends talk me up as the next Mick Jagger or whatever ugly person is good with women. Ron Jeremy? I don't fucking know.

Gentleman Johnny wrote:

3. Actual self improvement. Technique aside, these guys started dressing better, working out, practicing building rapport, working on their self confidence etc. Style doesn't focus on that as much but its most likely where the lasting benefits came from.

Everything except the style, I need to work on fashion. I wear t-shirts and gym shorts and that's about it. Look like a fatass in fancy clothes.

4. In spite of themselves.  Style's future wife didn't fall for his PUA bullshit at all. She constantly out "gamed" him because she saw a decent human being who was genuinely a good match underneath the bullshit techniques. Once he got his head out of his ass, he figured it out, too.

It would be a fucking dream to have a woman want me so badly that she'd be that patient. Eh, I want world peace and a cure for cancer too, we don't always get what we want. To be that kind of man: my ultimate desire in life.

Gentleman Johnny wrote:Its sort of both. He's quite up front about the techniques, how they worked for him and the fun he had. He's just also not shy about the warning signs, the disappointment and how he eventually met someone he really loved who he never would have met without going through it.

He actually divorced that woman a year later or something. Kinda gives the book a sad note at the end, but I find it to be poetic justice, or something. I mean, PUA works in a specific place and I'm not in the right place, whatever that place is. Definitely not the slut shaming South.

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Post by kath on Sat May 09, 2015 3:56 am

Glides wrote:So reading back, how the fuck were these people able to succeed? Who knows. I've concluded a long time ago that trying that sort of shit wouldn't even work. A small part of me still wants to believe that women can be solved like a math equation, that by doing X you get Y. If only, if only it were so simple.

"these people" are the people writing the books, and not real life people who seemed to you to be using PUA techniques and seemed to you to be successful with their Gender of Choice?
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Post by Enail on Sat May 09, 2015 11:52 am

Glides wrote:
Yeah, I'm definitely much more in tune with people's body language and how to react. I still have fuckups, I know when I have because people give me that classic "what the fuck was that?" look. Luckily it happens much less often now, which is a godsend.

...Did you just admit that you've improved at something?! Something pretty damn significant, no less!? Declare it a national holiday! Razz

(Also, good job! Don't forget how big an achievement this is!)
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Post by PintsizeBro on Sat May 09, 2015 12:36 pm

PUA techniques can help people who already have good social skills either become more confident and forward or become better manipulators, depending on which direction their moral compass points. But they do nothing for a guy who finds himself rendered literally speechless in the presence of a woman he finds attractive.

With a lot of social calibration, humor, and charm, "negging" can come across as good-natured teasing. Without those things, it's just being mean to a stranger, as you've learned. Remember Tucker Max? He may be a bit before your time, because now he's an adult who writes articles on LinkedIn. PUAs wish they were him, but he thinks (and says!) that they're the fucking worst. He got away with acting the way he did in his memoirs because he could make the women he talked to feel like they were in on the joke. He made them feel included, so they were able to laugh together. He also never used words like "negging" or "kino," he just flirted.

But I digress. I guess my point is, if PUAs can actually help you, you don't need help. If you do need help, they aren't the ones who can do it.

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Post by Guest on Sat May 09, 2015 12:53 pm

kath wrote:

"these people" are the people writing the books, and not real life people who seemed to you to be using PUA techniques and seemed to you to be successful with their Gender of Choice?

That's a good point actually, I've never seen a single person ever deliberately use PUA techniques. Ever. I've seen people naturally neg or kino or whatever, but I know the difference between instinct and desperation.

So maybe PUA isn't the way to go. I dunno, it's too disrespectful to women. I need to read Models by Mark Manson again, apparently that's the more egalitarian choice.

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Post by Guest on Sat May 09, 2015 1:03 pm

PintsizeBro wrote:PUA techniques can help people who already have good social skills either become more confident and forward or become better manipulators, depending on which direction their moral compass points. But they do nothing for a guy who finds himself rendered literally speechless in the presence of a woman he finds attractive.

With a lot of social calibration, humor, and charm, "negging" can come across as good-natured teasing. Without those things, it's just being mean to a stranger, as you've learned. Remember Tucker Max? He may be a bit before your time, because now he's an adult who writes articles on LinkedIn. PUAs wish they were him, but he thinks (and says!) that they're the fucking worst. He got away with acting the way he did in his memoirs because he could make the women he talked to feel like they were in on the joke. He made them feel included, so they were able to laugh together. He also never used words like "negging" or "kino," he just flirted.

But I digress. I guess my point is, if PUAs can actually help you, you don't need help. If you do need help, they aren't the ones who can do it.

I actually own all of his books, I read them at first as genuine PUA advice books, but found out they were meant to be funny and mocking after I kept laughing my ass off the whole time.

He's got this strange sort of charisma that just makes women flock to him, I think a lot of people want that. I know I do. Plus he never had any insecurities regarding sex (dude is an actual narcissist, which helps). I don't agree with most of his philosophy, which takes on the classic "if I can succeed, you can succeed, and if you're not like me you're not succeeding" attitude I despise so much. But despite it all, he's at least self-aware and fucking hilarious, so I'll forgive him for that.

It's funny, I tend to doubt most of the exploits of most of the PUAs out there (they're too ridiculous to be true), but Max writes far better than the rest put together and his stories don't come off as bragging, just hysterically funny. Sex is so casual to him that he'll just talk about his fuckups, he lacks the blatant insecurity and self-hatred I've detected from actual PUAs.

To be fair, I really don't like most of the people in my social setting, nor do I really have any respect for most of them. The ones I respect are the ones that I consider to be my friends. Men and women both. It's not a "Glides is better" thing, because my jerkbrain won't allow such thoughts, it's just that they're so blatantly stupid (as in, deliberately) and so self-absorbed that it's difficult to like them. I just conclude that most people are assholes and there's very few people out there who you'll actually connect with, and c'est la vie. So perhaps that's my problem: disliking most people and thinking they're idiots.


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Post by PintsizeBro on Sat May 09, 2015 1:59 pm

I think your problem is twofold: you don't like other people, and you don't like yourself. You really need to like both to have good relationships with others. Tucker Max, for all of his shortcomings, liked himself and he liked other people. I think that's a big part of his charisma, really. It's so much easier to be confident and likable when you're happy.

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Post by Guest on Sun May 10, 2015 12:44 am

PintsizeBro wrote:I think your problem is twofold: you don't like other people, and you don't like yourself. You really need to like both to have good relationships with others. Tucker Max, for all of his shortcomings, liked himself and he liked other people. I think that's a big part of his charisma, really. It's so much easier to be confident and likable when you're happy.

I could like other people, maybe. But I'll never like myself in any reality, it just isn't happening.

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Post by readertorider on Sun May 10, 2015 10:10 am

Well start by liking/finding good things in other people and eventually you may find the skills to start linking/finding good things about yourself. Or eventually the people you like might tell you what they like about you when you complement them.

Personally I think some PUA stuff works because it's target demographic of young women also don't like certain aspects about themselves (or themselves period) and PUAs exploit that. The messages I've seen seem to be along the lines of "I see your flaws and I might still be interested, show me you still have value as a human being" which can work on people that don't see themselves as intrinsically valuable or do care what random strangers think of them.

Glides wrote:To be fair, I really don't like most of the people in my social setting, nor do I really have any respect for most of them. The ones I respect are the ones that I consider to be my friends. Men and women both. It's not a "Glides is better" thing, because my jerkbrain won't allow such thoughts, it's just that they're so blatantly stupid (as in, deliberately) and so self-absorbed that it's difficult to like them. I just conclude that most people are assholes and there's very few people out there who you'll actually connect with, and c'est la vie. So perhaps that's my problem: disliking most people and thinking they're idiots.
This is very different from how I view the world. You've really never come across a professor who you respected but aren't friends with because most people aren't friends with their professors? Or people who you like inside class but don't really have a desire to see outside of it?
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Post by Dan_Brodribb on Mon May 11, 2015 2:31 pm

I was active in PUA in the mid-2000s. I'm happy to answer any questions.

One thing I think is important to mention is it's common for people getting involved in it to experience an emotional roller coaster--the highs are exhilirating, but the lows often feel crushing, and they are unpredictable and can come out of nowhere.

I mention this because if a person has a tendency to respond to negative emotions by acting out in a way that's destructive to others or them self (becoming verbally abusive, suicidal behaviours or self-harm, picking fights, overusing substances in a dangerous way, breaking stuff, etc.) I would encourage them to stay away from pick-up until they're confident they can reasonably manage their emotions.

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Post by BasedBuzzed on Mon May 11, 2015 5:13 pm

Not to hijack the thread, but when you go sarging, do you filter out the people who can't have a good time without scoring? And did you actively try to come up with your own routines/opening lines?

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Post by Dan_Brodribb on Mon May 11, 2015 6:52 pm

BasedBuzzed wrote:Not to hijack the thread, but when you go sarging, do you filter out the people who can't have a good time without scoring?

If you mean going out with other aspiring PUAs for the purpose of meeting women, anybody who wanted to come was welcome.  It was inclusive, sometimes to the point where you found yourself hanging around with people you had nothing in common with other than the desire to improve your romantic life.

Thinking about it now makes me laugh wondering what a visual we must have presented...this hodge-podge group of men with no unifying theme of age, social ability, cultural background, or fashion sense. The Island of Misfit Aspiring Lotharios.

BasedBuzzed wrote:And did you actively try to come up with your own routines/opening lines?

I did, but interestingly, that was before I was actively going out. I enjoyed writing, so it was fun.

Once I actually started going out and talking to women, I discovered I was bad at delivering preplanned routines. I also found it personally unsatisfying. So I gravitated towards styles that didn't prescribe canned stuff. So I stopped preplanning stuff because even though it was fun to write, it seemed like a waste of time and energy coming up with things I was never using.

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Post by Gentleman Johnny on Mon May 11, 2015 7:21 pm

Dan_Brodribb wrote:
Thinking about it now makes me laugh wondering what a visual we must have presented...this hodge-podge group of men with no unifying theme of age, social ability, cultural background, or fashion sense. The Island of Misfit Aspiring Lotharios.

I really want to see group photos now! Not your group in particular just. . .ahem. . . any pickup game of pickup. Is there a central clearinghouse for these? Do they organize through meetup? I must see an Ostentation Of Pickup Artists in action before I die.

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Post by Guest on Mon May 11, 2015 10:06 pm

BasedBuzzed wrote:Not to hijack the thread, but when you go sarging, do you filter out the people who can't have a good time without scoring? And did you actively try to come up with your own routines/opening lines?

Hijacking your hijacking.

I am also really fucking horrible at preplanned strategies. I'd memorize an opener and then forget everything else. My brain would be in such a state of perpetual panic that it could only remember one thing at a time.

The absolute worst was the only time I approached two girls at once. I was plastered drunk (my favorite state of being is this plus tons of dank ass weed, WOO WOO).

Two cute girls standing by a stove. They're cooking tortillas on a pan.

So my drunk mind decides this is the ultimate opener, it'll get their panties wet for sure.

I hadn't seen my reflection in a few hours, forgive me.

So I literally approach them and say, in my closest approximation to the Bruce Campbell "hail to the king" voice: "You know ladies, you cook that for ten more minutes and you're gonna have some warm-ass tacos."

They burst into hysterical laughter, I turn purple and walk away.

I got way too many of these stories, my skills at completely humiliating myself in front of hot girls is legendary.

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Post by PintsizeBro on Mon May 11, 2015 11:36 pm

Or... they could have been laughing because it was funny?

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Post by Caffeinated on Tue May 12, 2015 11:34 am

PintsizeBro wrote:Or... they could have been laughing because it was funny?

Yeah, what PintsizeBro said. A line like that seems like it's meant to get laughter. So you decided you failed because... they laughed?
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Post by reboot on Tue May 12, 2015 11:41 am

Caffeinated wrote:
PintsizeBro wrote:Or... they could have been laughing because it was funny?

Yeah, what PintsizeBro said. A line like that seems like it's meant to get laughter. So you decided you failed because... they laughed?

Is anything but laughter an appropriate response to that line? I am trying and failing to think of any other response that does not involve laughing
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