Age of Ultron Discussion

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Age of Ultron Discussion

Post by Jayce on Sun May 10, 2015 10:29 am

Will contain spoilers.

I love how they tried really hard to make Hawk eye look cool, and they totally did! I enjoyed seeing him as a husband and father figure. Now I actually like the character and don't feel like he was a wierd add on to the avengers.

Scarlet witch and quicksilver was really likeable for me and it felt different to x men's take on the character. They had motivations, they felt humanistic, and we can tell they are hurt emotionally and are in conflict.

I wished they touched more on how Steve feels when he's not a soldier. It felt like he didn't confront his fear but just kept doing what he only knows to do which is to be in the army.

The stakes felt higher since we got a lot of scenes of people being rescued who mightve actually died while in the first one they just focused on fighting the aliens while we assume everyone evacuated safely. Also Quicksilver dying made the stakes feel higher (although I know they only killed him off cause his ridiculously powerful).

What this film succeeds in is that it makes the heroes vulnerable, especially emotionally. They all have to struggle with things they fear, and baggage to get over. It made them feel relatable.

Ultron as artificial intelligence was believable since they based him off a person's personality and I could see how a computer might be able to do that in the future. He didn't feel too robotic and at least had a personality.

I'm not a big fan of Jarvis Superman, he just seems powerfully flawless and kind of bland. Also how come he can hold the hammer? Does that mean everyone else is weaker than thor and jarvis?

And I still am not exactly sure of what scarlet witch does besides her hypnosis powers.

What happened to the vibranium??

I do miss Loki though, Ultron is cool but he just wasn't as snarky as Loki and there was no cool laugh or smirk from him.

Jayce

Posts : 211
Reputation : 66
Join date : 2014-10-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Age of Ultron Discussion

Post by Suika on Sun May 10, 2015 1:46 pm

Jayce wrote:I'm not a big fan of Jarvis Superman, he just seems powerfully flawless and kind of bland. Also how come he can hold the hammer? Does that mean everyone else is weaker than thor and jarvis?

Your ability to hold Mjölner or not is based on a more arbitrary measure of "worthiness", so that's why Thor can lift it despite being physically weaker than, say, the Hulk. Also, the hero is Vision.

Jayce wrote:And I still am not exactly sure of what scarlet witch does besides her hypnosis powers.

Chaos magic, or so I've heard.
avatar
Suika

Posts : 73
Reputation : 3
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Age of Ultron Discussion

Post by Gman on Mon May 11, 2015 7:39 am

Also a massive spoilerrific post, so readers beware.






Huh it's interesting, I have never read the comics but this movie was a step up as far as character development goes.

They didn't get too in depth into the characters, especially those that have thier own movie series (captain america, iron man, etc - those characters have thier own movies that can be used to explore more of thier thoughts, motives, etc). Cannot wait for the next Captain America movie, I think he has the most deep and interesting story from all of the Avengers.

From what I understood, Ultron came to being from the scepter being "digitized" by Tony and Bruce. Meaning they kind of "awoken" him from his sleeping state and thier attempt to make him help mankind back fired where his own will interepted it in a very cold and analytical way (which kind of made sense in a twisted way - the only options standing in front of mankind is to either evolve or go extinct - but that's an entirely other philisophical question). I also took from the movie that maybe that was Thanos plans all along - maybe the scepter contained something that Thanos knew might work, but when it didn't, we get that mid cutscene image of him getting pissed off from this failure and getting ready to do things himself, which suggests that Ultron might have been just another pawn in his army or something like that.

Also, as for "Vision" (AKA the superman version of Jarvis) - I think they explain that he can hold the hammer because of the fact that he has one of the infinity stones (that was previously located within the scepter) as an integral part of his body.
avatar
Gman

Posts : 233
Reputation : 57
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Age of Ultron Discussion

Post by Jayce on Tue May 12, 2015 4:42 am

But why does the mind stone make him (or it, sice jaris is a robot) worthy? Thor dosen't carry an infinity stone. And also Loki couldn't use the hammer enough though he was in possesion of the mind stone.

Jayce

Posts : 211
Reputation : 66
Join date : 2014-10-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Age of Ultron Discussion

Post by Gentleman Johnny on Tue May 12, 2015 2:19 pm

There was an interesting spin-off discussion elsewhere of when can a machine move Thor's hammer and when it locks itself down due to someone unworthy. Obviously, when someone is deliberately trying to lift it with mechanical help (ie Tony in his suit), it digs in but considering it stayed on the floor of the Helicarrier even as the helicarrier was moving around, that was fine. So either Vision is worthy to be ruler of Asgard or he doesn't attract the hammer's attention. Also, he's an "android", an ambiguous term which in this case means each cell has both biological and technological (vibranium) components.

The vibranium made unbreakable Ultron, Vision and the lift system under the city. Its one of those magic metals that bridges the gaps in sci-fi devices. I think we'll also find that black marketeer Klaw still has access to some of his stash. Look him up on Google and you'll get it.

I suspect Vision will get more well rounded as he shows up more.

Ultron, although he was downloaded or whatever from the scepter also had a strong dose of Tony's personality and conversational manner.

I was grateful that the Avengers seemed to learn from last time and made saving people a priority this time.

Ultron wasn't good but he was right. "You want peace but you don't want anything to change" and "I think you're confusing peace with quiet" offhandedly called out the entire superhero genre. I don't remember he specific quote but didn't he also call them out as the cause of most of the problems they fight?

_________________
Gentleman Johnny
Not John Galt
avatar
Gentleman Johnny

Posts : 555
Reputation : 213
Join date : 2014-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Age of Ultron Discussion

Post by Suika on Tue May 12, 2015 7:23 pm

Gentleman Johnny wrote:
Ultron wasn't good but he was right. "You want peace but you don't want anything to change" and "I think you're confusing peace with quiet" offhandedly called out the entire superhero genre. I don't remember he specific quote but didn't he also call them out as the cause of most of the problems they fight?

That feels like some pretty shallow critique, especially considering how Ultron seems to be the robotic equivalent of an angsty teenager.
avatar
Suika

Posts : 73
Reputation : 3
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Age of Ultron Discussion

Post by Gentleman Johnny on Tue May 12, 2015 7:35 pm

Well, yes, he's obviously in is Nietzsche, Anton LaVey phase, so his solutions were simplistic. He did correctly identify the problems that the rest of them don't want to admit.
1. You can't have world peace without changing the people in the world who cause wars.
2. The Avengers are the architects of their own woes, including Ultron.

The DC series Justice does a great riff on this where the supervillains set out to use their powers to fix world problems like hunger, drought and health care, things which the heroes has the power to do but never did.

_________________
Gentleman Johnny
Not John Galt
avatar
Gentleman Johnny

Posts : 555
Reputation : 213
Join date : 2014-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Age of Ultron Discussion

Post by The Wisp on Tue May 12, 2015 7:41 pm

I loved what we got of Ultron and his thought, but the moments were so fleeting. There wasn't much more than a few good lines that were never addressed by The Avengers. I wanted character development where he slowly becomes evil, I wanted longer debates between him and the heroes, a fleshing out of his critique of The Avengers.
avatar
The Wisp

Posts : 896
Reputation : 198
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Age of Ultron Discussion

Post by readertorider on Sun May 17, 2015 11:13 pm

Just saw movie this weekend! (Spoilers below)

I really enjoyed how Steve would team up with Thor or Natasha or Clint in the fight scenes. Also Clint's family moments (Natasha knew!) were wonderful.

Don't think anyone mentioned Bruce, but his character seemed... inconsistent to me. He's a very reluctant Hulk, and very personally aware of pitfalls of science/tech, and all Tony really does is say "world peace" and Bruce helps him secretly create powerful AI using unknown technology... twice?

It's interesting that Tony's trying to be proactive, and reviving the whole 'powerful peace keeping death machines in the sky' moral thing after Winter Soldier ultimately sidestepped the whole issue could be neat, but argh. Not responsible engineering. No fail safes, no alternate plans, no decision that maybe we should let our teammates (especially the only one who has any idea about the technology) know, no thought that perhaps one of the most populated cities in the world is not the best place to test things, no system in place to monitor the experiment, etc. And then they decided to secretly do it again and it didn't end horribly again because magic?/rant

Also Bruce's relationship with Natasha seemed a tad off to me. On her side I could see the attraction, and she seemed consistently herself even/especially when she summoned the other guy. Bruce though seemed alternately not interested, and interested when it advanced the plot. There also seemed to be quite a bit of Natasha making herself vulnerable and Bruce responding with surface statements (yes, everyone knows you have a complicated relationship with the other guy). Think Natasha burned that bridge for necessity, but I would watch a Hulk and Black Widow movie to see if they can become colleagues again.

Suika wrote:
Gentleman Johnny wrote:

Ultron wasn't good but he was right. "You want peace but you don't want anything to change" and "I think you're confusing peace with quiet" offhandedly called out the entire superhero genre. I don't remember he specific quote but didn't he also call them out as the cause of most of the problems they fight?

That feels like some pretty shallow critique, especially considering how Ultron seems to be the robotic equivalent of an angsty teenager.


I agree. Everything about Ultron-- his Tony mannerisms, the way he couldn't seem to control himself (pirate dude's lost arm), his inconsistent plan (world peace/kill Avengers/kill select humans/kill all humans), even his unfinished body--just made him seem incomplete/broken/buggy. Maybe if he ever was actually a force for good I'd give his words a little consideration, but 'humans are their own worst enemy' thing was cool to me as a highschooler watching I, Robot. It's not all that revolutionary anymore.

Gentleman Johnny wrote:Well, yes, he's obviously in is Nietzsche, Anton LaVey phase, so his solutions were simplistic. He did correctly identify the problems that the rest of them don't want to admit.
1. You can't have world peace without changing the people in the world who cause wars.
2. The Avengers are the architects of their own woes, including Ultron.

The DC series Justice does a great riff on this where the supervillains set out to use their powers to fix world problems like hunger, drought and health care, things which the heroes has the power to do but never did.


1. Based on what I remember from the movies the purpose of Ultron originally (and the Avengers themselves) was to deal with the extraterrestrial threats to earth so that humans could keep focusing on, and hopefully improving, their own problems. I'm not sure where Tony pulled "World Peace in our lifetime" from (optimistically--he thought the technology he developed to protect Earth from others could also be used closer to home?), but I don't really know that the Avengers have the skill set to change the people in the world who cause wars (unless change = eliminate?).

2. I agree the Avengers (or rather Tony being stupid with minimal supervision) created Ultron. To a certain extent SHIELD and Thor were responsible for the Loki problem by keeping the Tesseract and letting him escape respectively. Bruce is certainly responsible for his condition (which he seems to be constantly trying to mitigate/atone for), but the Hulk is not the root of all the Avenger's woes. Failures at communication/teamwork certainly cause problems, but Hydra didn't suddenly spring into being because Thor tried to strangle Tony one too many times.

The criticism gets leveled at superheroes quite a bit, but aside from the Ultron thing (rather ironic that he's using his own existence to call the Avengers terrible when he's supposedly acting to achieve their dream), it rings hollower here than the other occasions I've seen it.

SMBC Superman comic that may interest you

I definitely would like to see scenes of the Avengers doing good outside of their super hero roles, but I'm not sure that I really want superheroes to magically solve real life problems. If, say, that thing in Iron Man 3(?) worked, and everyone was protected from sickness/injury/death(?) the interesting story isn't Tony Stark anymore, it's the rest of the world and how society adapted. I definitely don't want the Marvel Universe to change too much, but I think most of the heroes do (possible exceptions being Cap and Natasha who don't seem to know what they'd do in peace time, but I think they would change the world if they could).

Would like to discuss any/all of above if anyone's interested and/or managed to skim this far!
avatar
readertorider

Posts : 155
Reputation : 58
Join date : 2014-10-23

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Age of Ultron Discussion

Post by The Wisp on Sun May 17, 2015 11:55 pm

readertorider wrote:Also Clint's family moments (Natasha knew!) were wonderful.

It felt out of left field initially, but by the end of that sequence I really enjoyed that character development. I really like how Hawkeye is being cast as the down-to-earth everyman of the group, which gives him a distinct identity he lacked in the first movie. Additionally, I really liked how Hawkeye was the only Avenger (besides Iron Man who was flying around at the time) to not have those Scarlet Witch-induced nightmares/hallucinations. Cosmic justice for the first movie!

I also felt like both Hawkeye and Black Widow seemed more useful and badass in the action scenes this time around. I must admit that I was underwhelmed by them in the first movie, where they seemed woefully underpowered compared to the other four.

So yeah, I was really happy with how Black Widow and especially Hawkeye's characters were shown.

Don't think anyone mentioned Bruce, but his character seemed... inconsistent to me. He's a very reluctant Hulk, and very personally aware of pitfalls of science/tech, and all Tony really does is say "world peace" and Bruce helps him secretly create powerful AI using unknown technology... twice?

...

Also Bruce's relationship with Natasha seemed a tad off to me. On her side I could see the attraction, and she seemed consistently herself even/especially when she summoned the other guy. Bruce though seemed alternately not interested, and interested when it advanced the plot. There also seemed to be quite a bit of Natasha making herself vulnerable and Bruce responding with surface statements (yes, everyone knows you have a complicated relationship with the other guy). Think Natasha burned that bridge for necessity, but I would watch a Hulk and Black Widow movie to see if they can become colleagues again.

Yeah, Bruce seemed to be basically a vehicle to advance the plot this time around, which was disappointing as he was probably the best hero character in the first movie, IMO.

It's interesting that Tony's trying to be proactive, and reviving the whole 'powerful peace keeping death machines in the sky' moral thing after Winter Soldier ultimately sidestepped the whole issue could be neat, but argh. Not responsible engineering. No fail safes, no alternate plans, no decision that maybe we should let our teammates (especially the only one who has any idea about the technology) know, no thought that perhaps one of the most populated cities in the world is not the best place to test things, no system in place to monitor the experiment, etc. And then they decided to secretly do it again and it didn't end horribly again because magic?/rant

I think the movie was trying to imply that there was some consciousness, or at least proto-consciousness, within the staff that was awakened and able to override the safety mechanisms (personified by Jarvis). But that's being charitable to the movie. I agree with you.

What I wish had happened was that Tony creates Ultron, thinks he succeeded, and indeed does initially. Ultron does have his mannerisms, which Tony programmed in, and he's a pure-hearted but naive creature. But then Ultron slowly starts to doubt the Avengers, and is eventually "mugged by reality", and then turns on them. That would have been the first half of the movie.

Everything about Ultron-- his Tony mannerisms, the way he couldn't seem to control himself (pirate dude's lost arm), his inconsistent plan (world peace/kill Avengers/kill select humans/kill all humans), even his unfinished body--just made him seem incomplete/broken/buggy. Maybe if he ever was actually a force for good I'd give his words a little consideration, but 'humans are their own worst enemy' thing was cool to me as a highschooler watching I, Robot. It's not all that revolutionary anymore.

What if they had made it a more personal plot, where Ultron merely thinks that The Avengers are undermining humanity, and wants to just destroy them (which he initially said)? I think that could have had potential.

I definitely would like to see scenes of the Avengers doing good outside of their super hero roles, but I'm not sure that I really want superheroes to magically solve real life problems. If, say, that thing in Iron Man 3(?) worked, and everyone was protected from sickness/injury/death(?) the interesting story isn't Tony Stark anymore, it's the rest of the world and how society adapted. I definitely don't want the Marvel Universe to change too much, but I think most of the heroes do (possible exceptions being Cap and Natasha who don't seem to know what they'd do in peace time, but I think they would change the world if they could).

Well, the impending alien invasion will give them an excuse to ignore other issues for the time being! And besides, aside from Tony (technology supergenius + money + owns a large corporation) and maybe Vision (smart + Superman-lite powers), I don't think any of character's superabilities lend themselves to other sorts of do-goodery. Captain America, Hawkeye, and Black Widow are just glorified soldiers (with unique and super abilities, but all are basically combat-centric); Bruce can't control himself reliably in Hulk form and, while very intelligent, isn't freakishly intelligent nor rich like Tony; Thor's abilities are mostly combat-related and there's probably some policy that's basically a watered-down version of the prime directive that says he can't give Asgardian tech to Earthlings, and SHIELD is just a military operation. So I agree that with the exception of Tony it rings hollow.
avatar
The Wisp

Posts : 896
Reputation : 198
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Age of Ultron Discussion

Post by Jayce on Mon May 18, 2015 1:40 am

But Tony's a billionaire, playboy, "philanthropist", so he probably does something :p.

As with ultron's creation, didn't Tony and Banner just worked on it a bit on the first day they had the staff (they could keep the staff for 3 days), took a break and went to the party? Then ultron awoke itself and killed Jarvis. Tony just created the base model of ultron and never expected it to be sentient just yet until he worked on it a bit longer.

I liked natasha's and banner's interactions and how they handled them having to be vulnerable, though I agree Banner didn't get much development since at the end he still runs away, but maybe he's gaining a bit more control over his hulk consciousness since he did look a bit sad to say goodbye to natasha at the end when he was in his hulk form.

Jayce

Posts : 211
Reputation : 66
Join date : 2014-10-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum