Dealing with difficult posters on DNL Prime

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Re: Dealing with difficult posters on DNL Prime

Post by Gentleman Johnny on Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:33 pm

Oh Gil. . .

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Re: Dealing with difficult posters on DNL Prime

Post by reboot on Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:43 pm

PintsizeBro wrote:I think I have an official hater on DNL Prime, somebody just downvoted every single comment I posted on yesterday's article in the span of about five minutes.

I must be doing something right.

It pays to make the right kind of enemies. It is as revealing as what types of people are your friends
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Re: Dealing with difficult posters on DNL Prime

Post by Gentleman Johnny on Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:40 pm

Sometimes I feel like batting around commenters like the latest Guest in a way akin to a cat playing with a mouse should really be beneath me. Does it make me a bad person to turn disagreement with their real (if rude and not well informed) opinions into a spectator sport? Or does it just mean I'm easily amused?

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Re: Dealing with difficult posters on DNL Prime

Post by jcorozza on Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:15 pm

If so, I'm probably also bad person. Once it's pretty clear that a poster is not arguing in good faith, while I'm probably not going to swear or call them names, boy can it be fun to...poke them.
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Re: Dealing with difficult posters on DNL Prime

Post by Conreezy on Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:23 pm

Does it make me a bad person to turn disagreement with their real (if rude and not well informed) opinions into a spectator sport?

Only if it makes me a bad person for enjoying being a spectator.

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Re: Dealing with difficult posters on DNL Prime

Post by PintsizeBro on Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:53 pm

When I engage someone Like that, I don't do it for their sake, I do it for the sake of anyone who might be reading.

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Re: Dealing with difficult posters on DNL Prime

Post by NomChompsky on Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:47 pm

I'm probably what you guys would call a "difficult poster" on DNL prime. But anyone who would argue I am uncompromising or unwilling to listen either hasn't actually engaged with me or is lying.

That being said, there is a frustratingly strange consensus on Dr. Nerdlove and is strangely impenetrable and people are very quick to fall in line with it. I don't post very many places on the internet but I enjoy posting on Dr. Nerdlove because first of all: I agree with my own opinions. I do think that I am right in many ways. And I think very many disagreements about what I say come out of a sort of denial of very simple truths about human beings and human nature. Secondly, I enjoy posting on Dr. Nerdlove because regardless of whether or not anyone ever agrees with me, the conversations are always interesting on some level.

I'm "Justin Cochran" by the way.

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Re: Dealing with difficult posters on DNL Prime

Post by waxingjaney on Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:05 pm

NomChompsky wrote:That being said, there is a frustratingly strange consensus on Dr. Nerdlove and is strangely impenetrable and people are very quick to fall in line with it.

It's not strange at all. It is a general community consensus on a variety of topics, borne out of a long history of debate and discussion which you presumably did not participate in.

And I think very many disagreements about what I say come out of a sort of denial of very simple truths about human beings and human nature.
Well, it's nice that you think so, dear. (condescending pat on the head) For an alternative, consider the infinite variety and mutability of the human condition.
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Re: Dealing with difficult posters on DNL Prime

Post by Gentleman Johnny on Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:16 pm

NomChompsky wrote:I'm probably what you guys would call a "difficult poster" on DNL prime. But anyone who would argue I am uncompromising or unwilling to listen either hasn't actually engaged with me or is lying.

That being said, there is a frustratingly strange consensus on Dr. Nerdlove and is strangely impenetrable and people are very quick to fall in line with it. I don't post very many places on the internet but I enjoy posting on Dr. Nerdlove because first of all: I agree with my own opinions. I do think that I am right in many ways. And I think very many disagreements about what I say come out of a sort of denial of very simple truths about human beings and human nature. Secondly, I enjoy posting on Dr. Nerdlove because regardless of whether or not anyone ever agrees with me, the conversations are always interesting on some level.

I'm "Justin Cochran" by the way.

Justin, there is absolutely a consensus. It exists because some of us have been following the comments for several years. We've discussed the topics before. Honestly, I think a lot of the disagreement comes not so much from what you're saying as the way you say it. You have a tendency to take things hyperbolic very quickly. Considering that one of the recurring sub-themes is treating people as unique and valuable individuals, leading with "people are things" doesn't really establish a premise so much as it comes off as looking for a fight. Truth be told, that's one of my hills to die for.

Speaking of which, I don't have Doc's direct contact and I lost my mod account in an unfortunate profile accident. Can someone drop him a line and ask him to mod the other Gentleman Johny?

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Re: Dealing with difficult posters on DNL Prime

Post by Enail on Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:29 pm

<mod> Folks, please remember that this is not a thread to complain about people or have meta arguments about discussion on DNL Prime. It's fine to discuss reasons for disagreements as long as  you can keep it unbelievably civil and constructive, but any further hints of snarkiness, insult or attempting to rehash fights from the blog, and I will shut down this thread and quite likely ban people. </mod>

ETA: I'll drop the Doc an email, Johnny.
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Re: Dealing with difficult posters on DNL Prime

Post by PintsizeBro on Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:05 pm

Justin, it's nice to see you on the forum. I typically enjoy engaging with you, even when we disagree. I think you're a basically decent person who struggles with poor self-image and sometimes has a hard time relating to others in constructive ways, so basically you'll fit right in here. Wink

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Re: Dealing with difficult posters on DNL Prime

Post by nearly_takuan on Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:08 pm

I gotta learn to stop reading those comments. Most days I don't. But when I do I spend the next several hours in sort of a state of aimless contempt. I know I don't make good comments, so I have no reasonable explanation for why I keep making 'em.
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Re: Dealing with difficult posters on DNL Prime

Post by NomChompsky on Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:48 pm

Gentleman Johnny wrote:
NomChompsky wrote:I'm probably what you guys would call a "difficult poster" on DNL prime. But anyone who would argue I am uncompromising or unwilling to listen either hasn't actually engaged with me or is lying.

That being said, there is a frustratingly strange consensus on Dr. Nerdlove and is strangely impenetrable and people are very quick to fall in line with it. I don't post very many places on the internet but I enjoy posting on Dr. Nerdlove because first of all: I agree with my own opinions. I do think that I am right in many ways. And I think very many disagreements about what I say come out of a sort of denial of very simple truths about human beings and human nature. Secondly, I enjoy posting on Dr. Nerdlove because regardless of whether or not anyone ever agrees with me, the conversations are always interesting on some level.

I'm "Justin Cochran" by the way.

Justin, there is absolutely a consensus. It exists because some of us have been following the comments for several years. We've discussed the topics before. Honestly, I think a lot of the disagreement comes not so much from what you're saying as the way you say it. You have a tendency to take things hyperbolic very quickly. Considering that one of the recurring sub-themes is treating people as unique and valuable individuals, leading with "people are things" doesn't really establish a premise so much as it comes off as looking for a fight. Truth be told, that's one of my hills to die for.

Speaking of which, I don't have Doc's direct contact and I lost my mod account in an unfortunate profile accident. Can someone drop him a line and ask him to mod the other Gentleman Johny?

Okay, I'll be fair. By continuing to just say "people are things" without the qualification that people, indeed, are things that exist in the world, are fairly complex and often indescribable, and that act in the world was just me being a little bit of a dick. But I still stand by my meaning, which isn't exactly the #1 dictionary definition of the word. But I also would say that I don't walk around all day thinking specifically that, but that the Mad Max film definitely qualifies people as things through its imagery and use of dialogue. But that isn't a bad thing at all. Thing ultimately end up accomplishing goals by the end of the film.

Word to ya motha. Peace be with you.

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Re: Dealing with difficult posters on DNL Prime

Post by Andrew Corvero on Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:46 am

Hi Nom Chompsky/Justin (tell me which name you prefer and I'll stick to it in the future)

I agree with my own opinions. I do think that I am right in many ways.

That's true for all of us. We have to believe that we are right about something, otherwise we'll never make any choices and we'd end up trapped in self-doubt. Self-confidence is a neutral human feeling, and in many situations it's highly beneficial.

However, like every human feeling, it needs to be balanced out with its opposite at times. Too much confidence in one's own opinions can lead to dogmatism, close-mindedness and the end of learning. Again, this is true for all of us. The most brilliant minds ever born struggled with the danger of radicalization and dogmatism just like the rest of us.

I'm not necessarily saying you are dogmatic or wrong, though, just offering my two cents on the general idea of "agreeing with your own opinions".

I think very many disagreements about what I say come out of a sort of denial of very simple truths about human beings and human nature.

I'm not entirely sure there are many "very simple truths" about human beings and human nature, otherwise we wouldn't need neurology, psychiatry, psychology, philosophy, sociology and anthropology to try and understand the different aspects of human nature. Those fields are far from simple, and plenty of brilliant people discuss their problems and the issue they raise in details and with scientific rigor.

Many things that were assumed to be "simple truths" have revealed themselves to be biased assumptions, cultural constructs or simply wrong. For many centuries people thought that it was a "simple truth" that the Earth was the immobile center of the universe. We now know that this assumption was heavily flawed.

The few "very simple truths" about human beings that come to my mind are that we need food and water in order to survive and that we're not eternal, and even those "simple truths" raise a series of interesting questions with no obvious answer, like "why do we need food and water?" "how much food and water do we need, and what is the best combination of different kinds of food to live a healthy life?" or "why do we die?" and "how long can we keep ourselves alive?"

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Re: Dealing with difficult posters on DNL Prime

Post by reboot on Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:46 am

MOD

Hey all, this is really intended to be for forum members to exchange thoughts on Prime interactions with problematic posters who are not members of this forum. This is not a place to talk about each other. So can we stop now?

Justin/Mom Chompsky, if you want a thread about your interactions on Prime or your communication style, please feel free to start one. I can pull the last few comments into it, if you like

/MOD
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Re: Dealing with difficult posters on DNL Prime

Post by Caffeinated on Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:39 pm

Good lord, I just read yesterday's comment thread with the troll going on about how it's totally fine to physically grab a woman and pull her away from her friends and if you disagree then you're the one who's sexist, and I am having this big anxiety reaction to the whole thing. It's like reading the first chapter of Gavin deBecker's "The Gift of Fear", where he keeps layering in all these clues that something bad is going to happen and ratcheting up the tension. And I just want to manifest a superpower that lets me come through the troll's screen and scream at him "NO NO NO NO NOOOOOOOOOOO THAT IS NOT OK!!!!!!!"

Basically I'm really amazed at how you guys dealt with him so calmly for so long, explaining and giving examples and explaining again, while he doubled down and tripled down and quadrupled down and infinityed down. I also enjoyed the moment when the patience turned to snark and/or anger. It may not help him or people reading who think like him, but they're not the only ones who count.
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Re: Dealing with difficult posters on DNL Prime

Post by Guest on Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:26 pm

Caffeinated wrote:Good lord, I just read yesterday's comment thread with the troll going on about how it's totally fine to physically grab a woman and pull her away from her friends and if you disagree then you're the one who's sexist, and I am having this big anxiety reaction to the whole thing. It's like reading the first chapter of Gavin deBecker's "The Gift of Fear", where he keeps layering in all these clues that something bad is going to happen and ratcheting up the tension. And I just want to manifest a superpower that lets me come through the troll's screen and scream at him "NO NO NO NO NOOOOOOOOOOO THAT IS NOT OK!!!!!!!"

Basically I'm really amazed at how you guys dealt with him so calmly for so long, explaining and giving examples and explaining again, while he doubled down and tripled down and quadrupled down and infinityed down. I also enjoyed the moment when the patience turned to snark and/or anger. It may not help him or people reading who think like him, but they're not the only ones who count.

I just read a good chunk of that...

>mfw


I was gonna say that maybe if they asked the other person if they wanted to leave and then took said person by the hand that would probably be a little more well received than just blatantly taking them away. Otherwise...

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Re: Dealing with difficult posters on DNL Prime

Post by reboot on Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:30 pm

Yeah, that whole set up would be totally OK if it was prefaced with, "Hey, it is a little loud in here. Let's go somewhere quieter to talk." And then offering your hand
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Re: Dealing with difficult posters on DNL Prime

Post by Enail on Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:39 pm

Sometimes in situations like that, I suspect that the OP might have originally meant the 'would have been okay if...' version, or at least didn't actively rule it out, but they get defensive when challenged and double down so hard they land up vehemently insisting on the worst possible version of their original scenario, and it blows up from there.

Do y'all think starting off with a clarifying question instead of responding to the implications of what they said might get them to think about it and avoid some of these threadsplosions, or are ones like that pretty much always lost causes?
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Re: Dealing with difficult posters on DNL Prime

Post by reboot on Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:47 pm

I think a clarifying question is always a good idea. They may still double down, but at least it is clear what they really mean.

In the case of this poster, another problem is that he is ESL and I do not think he gets how his word choices (although absolutely correct) are interpreted by native speakers. He and I got into it once until I realized he did not really understand how what he was saying was being perceived. He came off more....strident than he meant to.
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Re: Dealing with difficult posters on DNL Prime

Post by Robjection on Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:59 pm

Enail wrote:Do y'all think starting off with a clarifying question instead of responding to the implications of what they said might get them to think about it and avoid some of these threadsplosions, or are ones like that pretty much always lost causes?
Depending on how quickly I get to a particular comment, I may open with some clarifying questions. If it's already gotten to the point where they've doubled down on some shitty things then they might get one if I'm in a good mood.

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Re: Dealing with difficult posters on DNL Prime

Post by jcorozza on Sat Jun 06, 2015 8:01 pm

Oh my. I was glad I came to that one too late. What got me was the "if I don't do that I'm not allowing a girl to say no and that's sexist" thing that made me WTF all over the place...
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Re: Dealing with difficult posters on DNL Prime

Post by Chickpea Sarada on Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:19 am

I just read that thread. Late again.



Someone did ask to clarify whether it was the okay interpretation or the not-okay one. This was his reply:

Whatever i feel like doing at the moment. If i am already engaged on some deep conversation, or whatever, i don't even bother to ask, i guess. If she finds me creepy she can always leave. And that's fine.

And it got worse from there.

Anywho, back to the general subject.

Back when I was BritterSweet and didn't have an IntenseDebate account, I posted a comment somewhere summing up what made me so frustrated with certain posters. It was about how resistant they were to good, seemingly benign and positive advice on approaching women without violating boundaries. It basically said, "What do these posters frickin' want?!"
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Re: Dealing with difficult posters on DNL Prime

Post by Guest on Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:35 am

Chickpea Sarada wrote:
It was about how resistant they were to good, seemingly benign and positive advice on approaching women without violating boundaries.  It basically said, "What do these posters frickin' want?!"

Honestly and bluntly: a swift kick in the ass.

Take me for example...

Spoiler:

...I can honestly say that I'm terrified of cold approaches and the women who I might want to approach, I mean I could probably do it, but something about approaching seems creepy to me. After I've read countless stories of approaches going wrong from the perspective of women I usually ask myself if it's really worth making that approach or if it's even worth asking out a friend on a date. Now I won't turn violent, I know that and you guys know that, but the poor woman I'm asking out doesn't know that. So, I would rather let her go, not bother her and let her go about her business than to have that woman worry about me. What was a fear of rejection is now a fear of being misjudged and possibly getting maced or tazed.

I've been told that it's not weird or creepy, but something about it just doesn't feel right to me.

What I need is a swift kick in the ass to make me realize that it's not weird or creepy. I really don't know how that kick can manifest itself in me

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Re: Dealing with difficult posters on DNL Prime

Post by Andrew Corvero on Sun Jun 07, 2015 5:55 am

The Mikey wrote:

Spoiler:

<snip>

Now I won't turn violent, I know that and you guys know that, but the poor woman I'm asking out doesn't know that. So, I would rather let her go, not bother her and let her go about her business than to have that woman worry about me. What was a fear of rejection is now a fear of being misjudged and possibly getting maced or tazed.

Spoiler:
I can understand this fear, but honestly if you are polite, don't "ambush" people out of nowhere (especially not at night!) and introduce yourself openly and with a smile the worst you can get is a blunt "Leave me alone" or a dirty glare (and that's the absolute worst).

Women don't mace or taze men just because they approach them (unless they do it out of nowhere and take them by surprise in an already tense and scary situation).

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