Is it possible that assholes who are very successful at dating have psychopathic traits?

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Is it possible that assholes who are very successful at dating have psychopathic traits?

Post by Andrew Corvero on Sun May 31, 2015 11:28 am

So I've been reading this book which basically argues that there are some fields where people with psychopathic traits might be advantaged.

Specifically, the book argues that people with pronounced psychopathic traits tend to be very confident, charming, and focused which are no doubt some qualities that can give you some advantages it at dating, at least in making a good first impression.

Now I'm not saying that all people who are successful at dating are psychopaths. Far from that: it's perfectly possible to be confident , charming and focused without being ruthless or uncaring. Actually this is what I'm aspiring to be: gradually become a little more confident, more charming and most of all more focused while retaining empathy and a strong moral compass.

But I'm wondering whether some psychopathic traits could explain the initial success of "bad boys".

If that were true, we shouldn't be envious of people who are both naturally gifted with confidence (instead of learning it through trial and error) because they might be naturally cursed with a lack of empathy (and would find it very hard to learn it).

Some of us can find it hard to be confident or charming, but some others mind find it hard to really care about others, and I frankly think that the latter ones might have it easier in some fields but are pretty inept in many very important others.

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Re: Is it possible that assholes who are very successful at dating have psychopathic traits?

Post by reboot on Sun May 31, 2015 11:54 am

One thing that needs to be uncoupled is people who are called "bad boys" are usually done do based on class and lifestyle markers while an asshole is from any walk of life. The stereotypical "bad boy" is your broody rebel in black who rides a motorcycle who does not do the "boring" 9-5 life. He may or may not be an asshole.

An. asshole can have any lifestyle or be from any class.
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Re: Is it possible that assholes who are very successful at dating have psychopathic traits?

Post by Andrew Corvero on Sun May 31, 2015 12:02 pm

reboot wrote:One thing that needs to be uncoupled is people who are called "bad boys" are usually done do based on class and lifestyle markers while an asshole is from any walk of life. The stereotypical "bad boy" is your broody rebel in black who rides a motorcycle who does not do the "boring" 9-5 life. He may or may not be an asshole.

An. asshole can have any lifestyle or be from any class.

Good point, although I guess that for cultural reasons I have a different idea of "bad boy".

My stereotype of "bad boy" is an emotionally abusive person (someone who cheats, lies and puts down their SO on a regular basis and in general treats others like crap) while still looking charming and attractive on the surface.

Less "Rebel without a cause" and more "Deconstructing Harry" or Tucker Max.

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Re: Is it possible that assholes who are very successful at dating have psychopathic traits?

Post by reboot on Sun May 31, 2015 12:27 pm

Your version is closer to a straight up abuser. My ex was abusive and fit your description except for the cheating because he was not particularly successful with women (hence why he ended up married to someone "defective" (his word, not mine) I do have a birth defect, but I am not defective). So not every abusive asshole is attractive to women. I think to this day I am the only woman my ex "succeeded" with.


One reason I think the "women like assholes" thing is so prevalent is that people do not see people like my ex and forget that men also end up in abusive relationships. You never hear people say "men like assholes" because they end up with women with the characteristics you described, but many women with those characteristics are very successful with men.

Sorry, kind of rambly Smile I hope there was some sense in there
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Re: Is it possible that assholes who are very successful at dating have psychopathic traits?

Post by Andrew Corvero on Sun May 31, 2015 12:50 pm

Your version is closer to a straight up abuser. My ex was abusive and fit your description except for the cheating because he was not particularly successful with women (hence why he ended up married to someone "defective" (his word, not mine) I do have a birth defect, but I am not defective).

Wow. He sounds like a grade-A asshole. I hope you got better after the relationship ended.

One reason I think the "women like assholes" thing is so prevalent is that people do not see people like my ex and forget that men also end up in abusive relationships. You never hear people say "men like assholes" because they end up with women with the characteristics you described, but many women with those characteristics are very successful with men.

That's also true. There are successful assholes and unsuccessful assholes. We tend to see the successful ones because they're easier to notice, while the unsuccessful ones tend not to be interesting enough for most to talk about.

And it's absolutely true that women who are confident, attractive and charming have a lot of men at their feet even if they're horrible persons. I remember this girl from high school. She was very beautiful, confident, well spoken and smart but she was horrible to anyone who didn't follow her standards. She had the entire school wrapped around her finger, except the few she didn't care about and who didn't care about her (like me).

She made me realize that thankfully I'm not attracted to that kind of woman.

Sadly some horrible people might be less easy to spot, at least at the beginning.

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Re: Is it possible that assholes who are very successful at dating have psychopathic traits?

Post by reboot on Sun May 31, 2015 1:12 pm

My friends and I call those the undercover assholes. They can be really hard to spot until you know them well. Also, some only openly asshole on specific people, so others will never see it. Only way to avoid them is to ditch them if they asshole to you or someone who tells you about the true colors
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Re: Is it possible that assholes who are very successful at dating have psychopathic traits?

Post by BasedBuzzed on Sun May 31, 2015 2:48 pm

Could also be a reversal of cause and effect(the psychopathic-inclined seems so succesful because he has a series of flings instead of relationship and is constantly seeking out new stimulation, and another person would be just as succesful but simply doesn't care for it or settles down quicker).

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Re: Is it possible that assholes who are very successful at dating have psychopathic traits?

Post by Andrew Corvero on Sun May 31, 2015 3:54 pm

BasedBuzzed wrote:Could also be a reversal of cause and effect(the psychopathic-inclined seems so succesful because he has a series of flings instead of relationship and is constantly seeking out new stimulation, and another person would be just as succesful but simply doesn't care for it or settles down quicker).

That's an interesting perspective as well. We have to be careful to never confuse correlation with causation.

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Re: Is it possible that assholes who are very successful at dating have psychopathic traits?

Post by PintsizeBro on Sun May 31, 2015 9:13 pm

BasedBuzzed wrote:Could also be a reversal of cause and effect(the psychopathic-inclined seems so succesful because he has a series of flings instead of relationship and is constantly seeking out new stimulation, and another person would be just as succesful but simply doesn't care for it or settles down quicker).
The moving on quickly may not even be voluntary on his part. He might attract attention initially by being good-looking and charming, but that's not going to keep someone around if you treat them poorly right from the beginning.

Recall the guy from your "nemesis" thread, Andrew. You couldn't understand why everyone else liked this guy so much, but in the end you found that nobody else really liked him either, and they all just alternately tolerated and ignored his bullshit because he was superficially entertaining.

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Re: Is it possible that assholes who are very successful at dating have psychopathic traits?

Post by Gentleman Johnny on Sun May 31, 2015 10:05 pm

OK, I'm going to try and take a swing at this -
Can the confidence, ability to lie easily and charm of someone with psychotic tendencies help them seduce someone and/or get a date? Sure. Confidence, charm and the ability to appear successful and self contained (true or not) are generally attractive regardless of how you got them. Also, the ability to pick a goal and focus on working for it without regard to fairness or amount of effort is absolutely useful.

On the other hand, a lot of unbalanced people of any type tip their hand pretty quickly. Sometimes it really obvious, like an angry outburst when someone denies them some trivial thing. Sometimes its more subtle and best described as "a bit off". Laughing at the wrong thing, a casual comment that betrays a lack of concern for others (which will quickly be backpedaled and diverted from if the other person objects), stuff like that. A well calibrated person is going to pick up on that regardless of a gym body, expensive suit or good hair cut.

The thing is, not everyone's well calibrated. Everyone has insecurities, blind spots, wants that they're willing to pursue to irrational levels and so forth. Someone with no concern for others (or empathy, if you will) is going to be very good at zeroing in on where the hole in a person's heart is and presenting themselves as just the thing to fill it. That's what your more aggressive breeds of PUA teach - find the chinks in the armor, drive a wedge into them and push, push, push. A lot of the techniques overlap cult recruitment. They don't specialize in being the object of love so much as the object of addiction.

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Re: Is it possible that assholes who are very successful at dating have psychopathic traits?

Post by Andrew Corvero on Sun May 31, 2015 10:30 pm

Everyone has insecurities, blind spots, wants that they're willing to pursue to irrational levels and so forth. Someone with no concern for others (or empathy, if you will) is going to be very good at zeroing in on where the hole in a person's heart is and presenting themselves as just the thing to fill it.

I know this very well. I've recognized that this is exactly what my father did to my mother: he presented himself as the man of her dreams while he was being emotionally abusive. He does that with everyone, and he's really good at that: he portrays himself as a very moral person, a faithful husband and a good father while he's anything but.

That's what your more aggressive breeds of PUA teach - find the chinks in the armor, drive a wedge into them and push, push, push. A lot of the techniques overlap cult recruitment. They don't specialize in being the object of love so much as the object of addiction.

That's really creepy. It's textbook abusive behavior.

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Re: Is it possible that assholes who are very successful at dating have psychopathic traits?

Post by Andrew Corvero on Sun May 31, 2015 10:37 pm

Recall the guy from your "nemesis" thread, Andrew. You couldn't understand why everyone else liked this guy so much, but in the end you found that nobody else really liked him either, and they all just alternately tolerated and ignored his bullshit because he was superficially entertaining.

I've actually understood that this is often an unconscious assumption on my part. I tend to believe on a certain level that everyone is going to be swindled by the appearances. I know I should give people more credit. The problem is that I've lived for years with my father, who was really good at getting people who didn't know him very well to like him even though he was (and still is) a horrible person.

I think that now that he's been arrested his public image is starting to crumble but many people have been shocked when the facade fell to reveal just how much of an asshole he really is. I've always known but I felt like no one believed me, which no doubt shaped my approach to life more than a bit.

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Re: Is it possible that assholes who are very successful at dating have psychopathic traits?

Post by Gentleman Johnny on Mon Jun 01, 2015 2:24 am

The thing is, a lot of people respond to charming assholes by keeping them at arm's length quietly. So you get sort of "oh yeah, Joe, he's funny but not the kind of person I'd hang out with if it was just the two of us". That in turn conceals the depth of just how toxic they really are since they're not given the chance by most people to show it. So when the shit finally does hit the fan you get something like "well, I knew he was a bit off but I never suspected he ate people!"

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Re: Is it possible that assholes who are very successful at dating have psychopathic traits?

Post by jcorozza on Mon Jun 01, 2015 8:44 pm

I think there is some overlap in psychopathic qualities and people who are good at getting dates (especially cold approach dating, I think). Many have mastered charm and getting into people's good graces - more importantly, though, I think there's overlap in psychopathic qualities and people who eventually become abusers. One of the main traits is a lack of empathy (some people's definition of narcissism), which makes if really easy to manipulate situations to suit their own needs, without feeling guilty about hurting others (pretty useful in business, too).

On the other hand, it's also important to keep in mind that most psychopaths aren't murderers. The ones who are (especially the ones who become mass murderers or serial killers - I was recently reading up about school shooters) also have sadistic traits, so they actively seek out ways to harm others, whereas those who aren't sadistic don't (they just don't mind much if they hurt others in order to "get ahead").
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Re: Is it possible that assholes who are very successful at dating have psychopathic traits?

Post by PintsizeBro on Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:46 pm

I actually wanted to come back to something you said earlier but didn't address last time - you mention Tucker Max as your "asshole" archetype.

The funny thing about Tucker Max, is he grew up. He talks about the antics he got up to in his stories as stupid shit you get up to in your 20's and then grow out of; and even at the time they were just one part of his life. He basically quit drinking and got into therapy, now he's engaged and has a baby with his fiancee. He's also a vocal supporter of sex-positive feminism and says that any guy who engages in slut shaming is a fucking moron.

In short, being an asshole is something that you can grow out of; and Tucker Max (a good example of an asshole if ever there was one) wasn't a psychopath, just spoiled and immature.

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Re: Is it possible that assholes who are very successful at dating have psychopathic traits?

Post by reboot on Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:19 pm

PintsizeBro wrote:I actually wanted to come back to something you said earlier but didn't address last time - you mention Tucker Max as your "asshole" archetype.

The funny thing about Tucker Max, is he grew up. He talks about the antics he got up to in his stories as stupid shit you get up to in your 20's and then grow out of; and even at the time they were just one part of his life. He basically quit drinking and got into therapy, now he's engaged and has a baby with his fiancee. He's also a vocal supporter of sex-positive feminism and says that any guy who engages in slut shaming is a fucking moron.

In short, being an asshole is something that you can grow out of; and Tucker Max (a good example of an asshole if ever there was one) wasn't a psychopath, just spoiled and immature.

This is a great point. People are often assholes when young. Some grow out of it by 15, some by 25, others later, and some never.
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Re: Is it possible that assholes who are very successful at dating have psychopathic traits?

Post by Andrew Corvero on Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:04 am

PintsizeBro wrote:I actually wanted to come back to something you said earlier but didn't address last time - you mention Tucker Max as your "asshole" archetype.

The funny thing about Tucker Max, is he grew up. He talks about the antics he got up to in his stories as stupid shit you get up to in your 20's and then grow out of; and even at the time they were just one part of his life. He basically quit drinking and got into therapy, now he's engaged and has a baby with his fiancee. He's also a vocal supporter of sex-positive feminism and says that any guy who engages in slut shaming is a fucking moron.

In short, being an asshole is something that you can grow out of; and Tucker Max (a good example of an asshole if ever there was one) wasn't a psychopath, just spoiled and immature.

I didn't know that. Good for him!

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Re: Is it possible that assholes who are very successful at dating have psychopathic traits?

Post by Gentleman Johnny on Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:22 am

jcorozza wrote: whereas those who aren't sadistic don't (they just don't mind much if they hurt others in order to "get ahead").  

I had a friend like this, although I wouldn't diagnose him as a psychopath. I think everyone does. When they want something, they prefer to get it without hurting anyone else but its not a strong enough preference to stop them if getting it at someone else's expense is the only way. More amoral than actively immoral.

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Re: Is it possible that assholes who are very successful at dating have psychopathic traits?

Post by BasedBuzzed on Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:52 am

Andrew Corvero wrote:
PintsizeBro wrote:I actually wanted to come back to something you said earlier but didn't address last time - you mention Tucker Max as your "asshole" archetype.

The funny thing about Tucker Max, is he grew up. He talks about the antics he got up to in his stories as stupid shit you get up to in your 20's and then grow out of; and even at the time they were just one part of his life. He basically quit drinking and got into therapy, now he's engaged and has a baby with his fiancee. He's also a vocal supporter of sex-positive feminism and says that any guy who engages in slut shaming is a fucking moron.

In short, being an asshole is something that you can grow out of; and Tucker Max (a good example of an asshole if ever there was one) wasn't a psychopath, just spoiled and immature.

I didn't know that. Good for him!

He's still kind of an asshat: http://www.salon.com/2014/11/26/tucker_max_on_cosby/

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Re: Is it possible that assholes who are very successful at dating have psychopathic traits?

Post by PintsizeBro on Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:50 am

Oh he's definitely a loooooooooooooooong way from perfect, but these days I'd say he's no worse than your average rich white dude. A low bar to clear, I know, but still a major improvement over when he was in his 20's.

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Re: Is it possible that assholes who are very successful at dating have psychopathic traits?

Post by Andrew Corvero on Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:24 pm

I think everyone does. When they want something, they prefer to get it without hurting anyone else but its not a strong enough preference to stop them if getting it at someone else's expense is the only way. More amoral than actively immoral.

I guess this is also true, but there is a scale of amoral behavior. Some amoral behavior is not as harmful as some other.

And I think that there is almost always a way to get what you want in an ethical way*, and where there really isn't you should start to question your wants.

*Although to be fair I do think that there are sometimes ethical ways of getting something which can still hurt someone else's feelings, so they are at "someone else's expense".

For example, I love chess. If you beat me soundly in a chess game, I might feel bad and humiliated, but you've done nothing unethical, and if you don't care about my pain you're not immoral, merely amoral. If you gloat about it at length, I might find you obnoxious and not invite you to another game (and so might others) but you haven't broken any ethical rule (or any rule of chess for that matter).
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Re: Is it possible that assholes who are very successful at dating have psychopathic traits?

Post by PintsizeBro on Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:02 pm

I'd argue that gloating at length about winning at a game does break rules about courtesy and decency. Gloating goes beyond simply winning the game - which unless it ends in stalemate will have a winner and a loser - and extends into explicitly causing distress for the loser to increase the winner's enjoyment.

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Re: Is it possible that assholes who are very successful at dating have psychopathic traits?

Post by Dan_Brodribb on Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:02 pm

Gentleman Johnny wrote:The thing is, a lot of people respond to charming assholes by keeping them at arm's length quietly. So you get sort of "oh yeah, Joe, he's funny but not the kind of person I'd hang out with if it was just the two of us". That in turn conceals the depth of just how toxic they really are since they're not given the chance by most people to show it. So when the shit finally does hit the fan you get something like "well, I knew he was a bit off but I never suspected he ate people!"

I've noticed this too.

The result of the friendly but 'keeping them at arm's length' that I saw is that nobody liked the person, but everybody thought everybody else DID because there was no overt shunning, calling the person out, etc. People were afraid to compare notes on the person's actions when not in public because they thought everybody else was this person's friend. We either figured no one would believe us, or in some cases that we misread the situation or somehow was 'missing' something everybody else was seeing.

The thing I most learned from the specific experience I'm thinking about was how 'keeping out of it' or 'not wanting to take sides' can be a lot less neutral that it sounds. It almost reminds me of those 'smoking doesn't cause cancer' studies by the tobacco industry--it doesn't matter if you like or believe them so long as they create enough doubt or uncertainty to keep people from taking action or making a firm stand.

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Re: Is it possible that assholes who are very successful at dating have psychopathic traits?

Post by jcorozza on Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:52 pm

Andrew Corvero wrote:

I guess this is also true, but there is a scale of amoral behavior. Some amoral behavior is not as harmful as some other.

And I think that there is almost always a way to get what you want in an ethical way*, and where there really isn't you should start to question your wants.

*Although to be fair I do think that there are sometimes ethical ways of getting something which can still hurt someone else's feelings, so they are at "someone else's expense".


And interestingly enough, one of the best ways that mental health professionals work with diagnosed psychopaths is to convince them that being kind to others, and doing things for other people, will actually benefit them in the long run, because people will be nicer to them in turn. I think most people with some of the qualities of a legit psychopath figure some of this out on their own, the hard way. After you screw a lot of people over, a lot of those people aren't so kind to you, and it gets harder to get the things you want.
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Re: Is it possible that assholes who are very successful at dating have psychopathic traits?

Post by Gentleman Johnny on Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:17 pm

One of my favorite fictional characters has a completely throw-away line that's this in a nutshell:
"I'm building up a reputation for honesty so I can blow it on something big. This isn't it."

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