How best to meet girls for casual relationships?

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Post by BobTheNinja on Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:58 pm

Okay, so I'm a 22-year old college graduate with a basic full-time job, currently living in a good-sized metropolitan area. I gravitate toward nerdy interests (video games, science fiction, fantasy, anime, etc) and I've had long-standing problems with procrastination, risk-aversion, and shut-in tendencies. I'm also still a virgin, and basically have zero dating or hook-up experience. Nowadays I regularly have intense bouts of negative thinking (mainly a combination of frustration, self-anger, and hopelessness) centered around these issues. Not all the time, but it's become way too common.

Recently I've been trying to improve certain aspects of my life (eating healthier, becoming more physically active, going out with friends more often, etc), but I want to go further. I want to break out of this cycle of negative thinking that keeps killing my motivation to make substantial changes in my life. I also want to gain more experience socializing with girls and lose my virginity. I know that I want to start with a casual relationship (ideally friends with benefits) rather than a fully-committed romantic relationship, but the problem is that I don't know how to best go about this, or what the best environments are for meeting girls who may be interested in that kind of thing. Right now I'm dabbling in online dating with OKCupid and Tinder, and I intend to commit more time and effort to both, but I don't know if that approach will pan out compared to actually going to places meeting girls in person.

So given all this, do you guys and gals have suggestions or advice for what I can do to help myself out in this situation?
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Post by The Wisp on Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:45 am

Wow, you sound exactly like me, except being a year older and having graduated from college already.

I, too, am a risk-averse "kissless" virgin man with shut-in tendencies. I'm also not happy about it and would prefer a low-pressure casual relationship of the FWB or fuckbuddy variety.

As such, I have collected a great deal of advice on this, though I don't necessarily follow it Razz So take all this with a grain of salt. I hope others who are more experienced will chime in.

I would say going out with your friends more is a good idea. It seems that often people find casual sex partners from within their social circles: their friends, friends of friends, and acquaintances. I would suggest possibly letting your friends, especially the more social ones, know that you are looking for an ongoing casual sex partner. This way they can possibly introduce you to somebody they know is looking for something similar. I would say attending larger social events, too, will allow you to become acquainted with lots of people and potentially meet a cute woman.

Generally, it seems like FWB situations occur when two people who often know one another at least a somewhat flirt, have causal sex, and if they both like it and want it to continue but still be casual, then you can define the relationship as a FWB one.

Now, this will work far better if you have a larger, mixed gendered social circle(s). If you only have a few friends and/or your friends are mostly men who socialize with other men (which can happen inadvertently for some nerdy guys) and/or your friends aren't open to talking about sexuality  then this will be less effective (though still worth a shot). If that is the case, I think it would be helpful for you to try to meet new people and try to build a more mixed gendered social circle.
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Post by Prajnaparamita on Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:08 pm

...Does somebody else want to say it or should I...?

(Honestly I was waiting for esselle or reboot to say it, because they say it in a far more intelligent and articulate manner than I, but as nobody's said it yet I will.)

Don't refer to adult women as girls. It's creepy and insulting.

I am a woman around your age who is potentially interesting in casual sex, and if a guy was going around referring to me or other women as "girls" I would be giving a Side-eye and moving right along. So just don't.

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Post by Dan_Brodribb on Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:06 pm

This is a side-comment, but I wanted to note something I'm seeing on this thread, that I've seen before, namely, comments like:

The Wisp wrote:
I, too, am a risk-averse "kissless" virgin man with shut-in tendencies. I'm also not happy about it and would prefer a low-pressure casual relationship of the FWB or fuckbuddy variety.

BobTheNinja wrote:I also want to gain more experience socializing with girls and lose my virginity. I know that I want to start with a casual relationship (ideally friends with benefits) rather than a fully-committed romantic relationship

A lot of inexperienced guys seem to think a FWB relationship as an entry-level relationship. Like they'll get practice having sex and a little social practice and then they'll be able to move on to a "real" relationship.

First of all, this tends to read a little squicky. I can come back to that if you'd like, or maybe someone else gets the same feeling and would like to explain it.

But just from a more practical point of view, in my experience FWB and casual relationships require MORE, not less, amounts of social and sexual savvy to set up and maintain. They are a type of relationship that an inexperienced guy is LEAST likely to find opportunities for and one that requires the skills that he is least likely to possess.

When I hear guys talk about wanting to find a casual, low-pressure FWB situation to gain relationship skills, I'm reminded of the scene in Happy Gilmore where the beginning golfer decides instead of putting the work into learning to putt, he's just going to try and hit a hole-in-one every time.

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Post by PintsizeBro on Sun Jun 07, 2015 5:40 pm

Seconding Dan that FWB is not training wheels for a "real" relationship, and that it's actually difficult to get into if you aren't already socially and sexually savvy.

The easiest way to get into a FWB relationship is to already have built up a reputation of being good in bed and respectful of boundaries. The former because if the entirety of the relationship is built around sex, she wants some assurance that she will get something out of it, too. The latter because any woman who has casual sex has horror stories of men flipping out when she didn't want to date them.

If you want a FWB because you're genuinely not interested in romance, I'm not sure how you would go about that. I could probably extrapolate at least some useful advice. But if you are interested in romance and you see the FWB as a stepping stone on the way to getting what you actually want, I'm sorry to say that you're barking up the wrong tree.

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Post by Caffeinated on Sun Jun 07, 2015 5:48 pm

Dan_Brodribb wrote:This is a side-comment, but I wanted to note something I'm seeing on this thread, that I've seen before, namely, comments like:

The Wisp wrote:
I, too, am a risk-averse "kissless" virgin man with shut-in tendencies. I'm also not happy about it and would prefer a low-pressure casual relationship of the FWB or fuckbuddy variety.

BobTheNinja wrote:I also want to gain more experience socializing with girls and lose my virginity. I know that I want to start with a casual relationship (ideally friends with benefits) rather than a fully-committed romantic relationship

A lot of inexperienced guys seem to think a FWB relationship as an entry-level relationship. Like they'll get practice having sex and a little social practice and then they'll be able to move on to a "real" relationship.

First of all, this tends to read a little squicky. I can come back to that if you'd like, or maybe someone else gets the same feeling and would like to explain it.

But just from a more practical point of view, in my experience FWB and casual relationships require MORE, not less, amounts of social and sexual savvy to set up and maintain. They are a type of relationship that an inexperienced guy is LEAST likely to find opportunities for and one that requires the skills that he is least likely to possess.

When I hear guys talk about wanting to find a casual, low-pressure FWB situation to gain relationship skills, I'm reminded of the scene in Happy Gilmore where the beginning golfer decides instead of putting the work into learning to putt, he's just going to try and hit a hole-in-one every time.

I was trying to find a way to say the same thing you just said. I love the Happy Gilmore example, that's spot on.

As for the squicky thing, I have thoughts on that. Basically, it can often sound like the guys saying these things are looking to get something for nothing. They want a young (and presumably attractive) woman to give them free access to her body for nothing. I hate looking at sex and dating and relationships in economic terms, but I feel like this calls for it. An attractive woman between the ages of, say 18 and 25, is desired by men of all ages. She has also been given cultural messages her whole life that the higher her "number" (of sexual partners), the lower her value as a potential partner (and as a human being, which makes the whole thing even squickier). Remember that Anna Faris movie a couple years ago? I think it was even called "The Number". The premise was this woman goes back through all her previous boyfriends hoping one of them is actually The One, because she can't afford to add any more to her Number.

So you have a situation where your hypothetical young attractive woman has many offers but a very restricted budget of how many she can accept before her value is reduced (squicky, I know). So, what exactly does she get out of any given encounter?

**One possibility is that she's already "lost all her value" (so squicky) and is selling her favors on the open market for hard currency. Typically, the guys looking for casual partners are aware that prostitution exists but have ruled it out.

**Another possibility is she meets a man who she finds very attractive and she gets what anyone gets from an encounter with someone they're wildly attracted to. If you're posting on these forums, it's likely you don't consider yourself to be extremely physically attractive.

**Another possibility is she meets a man who is fascinating, maybe he's an artist or a prominent figure in a field of interest to her or lives a glamorous lifestyle that she gets an exciting glimpse of. Again, if you're posting on these forums, it's likely you don't consider yourself to have this kind of fascinating persona that draws people in.

**Another possibility is she meets a man who exudes a warmth and friendliness that makes people feel good just being in his presence, and being around him makes her feel good about herself. This might be something you can work on, but again, posting on these forums suggests you don't feel you already possess this quality.

**Another possibility is she meets someone she clicks with and there's a chance of romance and true love. And here's the one that you're outright rejecting by insisting on a casual FWB basis rather than the possibility of an actual relationship.


So again, I would have to ask, what is this hypothetical woman going to get out of her encounter with you?

Also, there is nothing appealing about being asked if someone can use your body to grind out a few levels of XP before they move on to bigger and better things.
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Post by Prajnaparamita on Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:12 pm

Dan_Brodribb wrote:This is a side-comment, but I wanted to note something I'm seeing on this thread, that I've seen before, namely, comments like:

The Wisp wrote:
I, too, am a risk-averse "kissless" virgin man with shut-in tendencies. I'm also not happy about it and would prefer a low-pressure casual relationship of the FWB or fuckbuddy variety.

BobTheNinja wrote:I also want to gain more experience socializing with girls and lose my virginity. I know that I want to start with a casual relationship (ideally friends with benefits) rather than a fully-committed romantic relationship

A lot of inexperienced guys seem to think a FWB relationship as an entry-level relationship. Like they'll get practice having sex and a little social practice and then they'll be able to move on to a "real" relationship.

First of all, this tends to read a little squicky. I can come back to that if you'd like, or maybe someone else gets the same feeling and would like to explain it.

Look, as a woman when I read that (and yes, feel squicky as well) what I get is a message of "I want all of the sex and none of the work" which is a real turn off. I might be a little bit too harsh here, it could potentially be the case that the man in question has done a great deal of introspection about his relationship personality and feels he is aromantic or just not into the idea of closed relationships, which is totally cool but when it's the case that the person has also little to no relationship experience, and finds seeking out and cultivating relationships difficult or unpleasant it sounds like wanting sex without having to put any effort in.

This is extrapolating a bit further, (and please keep in mind that this is only how I personally read the situation--it isn't a comment on either of you, it's just an attempt to articulate how this makes me, and others, feel) but in my experience men who want sex without any effort are often one step away from those who believe they're entitled to sex.

I really don't want to say "you have to say you want this kind of relationship if you ever want to have sex", so please don't read it that way, I'm just trying to put my finger on why those lines just ping me the wrong way.


Dan_Brodribb wrote:
But just from a more practical point of view, in my experience FWB and casual relationships require MORE, not less, amounts of social and sexual savvy to set up and maintain. They are a type of relationship that an inexperienced guy is LEAST likely to find opportunities for and one that requires the skills that he is least likely to possess.

When I hear guys talk about wanting to find a casual, low-pressure FWB situation to gain relationship skills, I'm reminded of the scene in Happy Gilmore where the beginning golfer decides instead of putting the work into learning to putt, he's just going to try and hit a hole-in-one every time.

Yes yes yes this exactly Dan. Thank you. I personally am not hugely into casual sex, and for awhile thought I would never be interested, I've met guys in a couple of situations that have caused me to think otherwise, but they're rare. I know it sounds strange, but I actually have higher standards in some ways for casual sex than a partner in a romantic relationship. Those rare men who made me think "hmmmm, yeah, I might actually enjoy a casual NSA fling with you" were doing some complex high-level social stuff, and were very experienced at it. I'm not really sure if you want me to write out a list of what it was different with those guys that made me interested, and even willing to take some steps to initiate, as it would be long and likely quite repetitive, but the gist of it was that in a very short amount of time they managed to convey to me that I could trust them, that they were sex-positive and feminist and wouldn't slut shame me or others, and were good in bed and it would be worth it but wouldn't make a big deal about it. However, in the case of a romantic relationship, I might be willing to overlook the lack of an instant sense of trust and connection, because that feeling can be built up over time, and his inexperience wouldn't really matter, because I'd be willing to work on that together with him. It takes a great deal of practice and social calibration I think to come off as an attractive partner for casual sex, and I think that's something really important to keep in mind.

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Post by eselle28 on Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:24 pm

I'm not very comfortable with the idea that a young woman seeking a more casual relationship will necessarily need to get more from it than sex and companionship for it to be an appealing prospect. Women want these things too, and not all of them are seeking something serious.

I'm not comfortable with the idea that friends with benefits is the ideal entry level way of learning about sex and intimacy, though. Like others, I've found that it's harder, and I abandoned the prospect of friends with benefits with an actual friend a long time ago because it seems that many of the men seeking them with me weren't seeking an even relationship - not because my sexuality somehow came at a premium, but because the reason these men didn't want anything more serious was because they wanted someone who could be flexible and understanding of both their emotional needs and the other commitments, but weren't up for providing those things in return.

As for where to find women who are interested, I echo the suggestion to expand your group of friends and to think about potential or partners there. I'd also suggest at least considering something I'd call casual dating, which can involve more socializing and a slightly larger public component to the relationship, but doesn't usually suggest very strong emotions or commitment. It comes with pitfalls too, but it does open up one more pool of women in those who have a desire to learn about dating (something young women haven't always tried, whether or not they're virgins), but who aren't seeking serious boyfriends.
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Post by The Wisp on Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:25 pm

I can't speak for Bob the Ninja, but I actually don't view a FWB as training wheels for a relationship. Rather, I'm not interested in long-term commitment, life enmeshment, or monogamy for the foreseeable future. Period. But, I also think that ONS are not optimal because it seems to me that most of them either involve copious drinking, parties/clubs/large bars, and a transactional view of sex. I would only enter a more committed relationship if somebody really really improbably special came along who was also open to the sort of nonmonogamous relationship I want. I see the odds of that happening to be extremely low from my current vantage point.

I want a FWB situation because it combines some level of familiarity and comfort and mutual liking of one another on a non-sexual level (i.e. the 'friend' part) with regular sex, without the parts of a relationship that would be unappealing to me. The next best situation would be a fuckbuddy.

Re Caffeinated: First, I think you are talking about a fuckbuddy rather than a FWB.* Unlike some, when I say I want a FWB, I want the 'friend' part too, even if we're not close friends. I would also be open to a fuckbuddy, but a FWB is what I would primarily want.

They want a young (and presumably attractive) woman to give them free access to her body for nothing.

Um, no. Even if we're just talking about a fuckbuddy situation, she's certainly getting something out of it. In fact, the same thing the man is getting: sex. Not all women who want sex want a relationship.

And a lot of young women either don't care about slut shaming or have social circles where it doesn't happen, so I reject your premise.

*I think of a fuckbuddy as basically a regular booty-call, where one goes to the other's place, they have sex, maybe sleep together through the night, but otherwise have no other significant interaction. A FWB, on the other hand, is a genuine friend. While you wouldn't necessarily go on dates, nor necessarily be a close friend or had an established friendship before the "with benefits" part starts, you would spend some non-sexual time together that you would want to have even if you weren't having sex.
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Post by Guest on Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:33 pm

Bob-o, all I gotta say is this: a FWB deal* is not going to be what you expect with your lack of experience. I've not had a FWB thing before, but (and this is a huge butt) I know myself pretty gosh-darn well enough to know that I will get attached to this person emotionally if I sleep with them. I wouldn't want one until I knew what I was doing beforehand in an exclusive relationship.

In any event, if you're looking for a FWB deal, well, you're gonna need to accept and deal with the fact that you aren't going to be exclusive. There's the distinct possibility that she's may want to sleep with other dudes. This does NOT make her a bad person. In a FWB deal, this hypothetical woman understands that you too can also sleep with other women and she understands that you're not a bad person either for making that choice either.

Just keep that in mind if and when you get a FWB thing going. TBH, it sounds like it's way more trouble than it might actually be worth.

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Post by eselle28 on Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:43 pm

The Wisp wrote:
I want a FWB situation because it combines some level of familiarity and comfort and mutual liking of one another on a non-sexual level (i.e. the 'friend' part) with regular sex, without the parts of a relationship that would be unappealing to me. The next best situation would be a fuckbuddy.

Re Caffeinated: First, I think you are talking about a fuckbuddy rather than a FWB.* Unlike some, when I say I want a FWB, I want the 'friend' part too, even if we're not close friends. I would also be open to a fuckbuddy, but a FWB is what I would primarily want.

I understand the difference and think your desire for a friend with benefits is valid. However, I think it's worth remembering that some women would find a fuckbuddy more appealing than a friend with benefits. As one of them, I'd say that a friend with benefits comes with many of the aspects of relationships I dislike and few of the ones that are appealing to me - not going out on dates but spending non-sex time together is a no go for me, since that has historically meant dull, high-effort-for-meTV dates or group socializing where the friend with benefits makes it hard for me to meet other partners. That's not to say you should change your wants, but sometimes men looking for friends with benefits frame themselves as "not like those other guys," and it's worth remembering that people don't always seek the same packages.

Um, no. Even if we're just talking about a fuckbuddy situation, she's certainly getting something out of it. In fact, the same thing the man is getting: sex. Not all women who want sex want a relationship.

And a lot of young women either don't care about slut shaming or have social circles where it doesn't happen, so I reject your premise.

That's absolutely fair,and I completely agree. That being said, I do think people need to consider if they're looking for more than sex. People who are may need to offer something in addition to sex. Someone who wants to have a friend needs to be up for being a friend, which is the obvious one. I think a less obvious one is that a desire to drop the label of kissless virgin and experiment with sexuality is its own sort of want. Women who've had sexual experiences may not crave these casual relationships at as high of a level, and some who are virgins may not be so eager to drop it (even in non-shaming circles, where women being sexually active may be neutral, but where men almost always get social perks from it). That's not to say it's wrong to want to have initial sexual experiences or that no women want to sleep with virgins, but rather to point to unevenness of needs and to suggest some groups of women who may be compatible because their needs are even (women who want to experiment with dating is one, but I'd add women who are unhappy virgins and women who aren't but who want to experiment with particular sexual acts to the list).


Last edited by eselle28 on Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:58 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by Caffeinated on Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:50 pm

The Wisp wrote:
They want a young (and presumably attractive) woman to give them free access to her body for nothing.

Um, no. Even if we're just talking about a fuckbuddy situation, she's certainly getting something out of it. In fact, the same thing the man is getting: sex. Not all women who want sex want a relationship.

And that's where the lack of experience comes in. I've had a number of sexual partners who were very inexperienced (as in I was their first or second partner), and with a couple notable exceptions, the enjoyment derived from the encounter (on a purely physical, sexual level) was, shall we say, a bit lopsided. The ones that were the most enjoyable encounters were in the context of a relationship. It's somewhat less straightforward for a man to be a good sexual partner to a woman than vice versa, and takes more effort. I forget where I read that guys were less invested in their partner's pleasure in a casual hookup than with a girlfriend, but it matched my experiences.

The Wisp wrote:And a lot of young women either don't care about slut shaming or have social circles where it doesn't happen, so I reject your premise.

I sincerely hope that slut shaming goes away forever and that women are encouraged to have as many or as few partners as they like, predicated on nothing but their own enjoyment. I don't believe we have yet reached that utopia, but it is worth striving for.

I would also add that women (ciswomen having intercourse with cismen to be specific) are the ones at added risk even without social disapproval, because of the risk of pregnancy.

The Wisp wrote:*I think of a fuckbuddy as basically a regular booty-call, where one goes to the other's place, they have sex, maybe sleep together through the night, but otherwise have no other significant interaction. A FWB, on the other hand, is a genuine friend. While you wouldn't necessarily go on dates, nor necessarily be a close friend or had an established friendship before the "with benefits" part starts, you would spend some non-sexual time together that you would want to have even if you weren't having sex.

Your definition of a FWB sounds an awful lot like an early stage of a relationship, except that you've precluded the possibility of any additional feelings developing.
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Post by PintsizeBro on Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:52 pm

eselle28 wrote:I'm not very comfortable with the idea that a young woman seeking a more casual relationship will necessarily need to get more from it than sex and companionship for it to be an appealing prospect. Women want these things too, and not all of them are seeking something serious.
I don't think women need more than sex and companionship from a casual relationship, as that's the nature of the casual relationship. I do think anyone considering a casual relationship needs some assurance that the sex and companionship they get will actually be good. And given that women face a higher risk than men when having casual relationships, I think it's reasonable to expect that women would want a little more assurance that things won't go pear-shaped.

The easiest way to give others that assurance is to have a good reputation, but of course the only way to get a good reputation is to engage in several casual relationships and have all of them go well.

Wisp, you're in a difficult spot because you want casual relationships for their own sake, not because you see them as a stepping stone to a more traditional relationship. Getting a reputation of being good in casual relationships is somewhat of a Catch-22 for you, but barring that I recommend you find ways to demonstrate that you're respectful of other people's boundaries and women's sexual agency. Also, that you like fun and don't take yourself too seriously. I've actually had the exact kind of relationship you describe wanting, but mostly with men.

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Post by Dan_Brodribb on Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:26 pm

Hi, The Wisp. I realize a few replies to you have been posted already, so I hope this doesn't feel like piling on. I already feel we're drifting a little from the OP's question, and I hope if you're reading Bob, some of this is useful and that you'll chime in with more questions or refocus us.

The Wisp wrote:I want a FWB situation because it combines some level of familiarity and comfort and mutual liking of one another on a non-sexual level (i.e. the 'friend' part) with regular sex, without the parts of a relationship that would be unappealing to me. The next best situation would be a fuckbuddy.

I can't speak for Bob the Ninja, but I actually don't view a FWB as training wheels for a relationship. Rather, I'm not interested in long-term commitment, life enmeshment, or monogamy for the foreseeable future. Period. But, I also think that ONS are not optimal because it seems to me that most of them either involve copious drinking, parties/clubs/large bars, and a transactional view of sex. I would only enter a more committed relationship if somebody really really improbably special came along who was also open to the sort of nonmonogamous relationship I want. I see the odds of that happening to be extremely low from my current vantage point.

When I was a kissless virgin, I also had ideas about what I wanted from a relationship. What I thought would be best, what I thought was safest, what I thought I could handle. There were two problems.

1) I had no relationship or sexual experience so I didn't know what I wanted. I only knew what I THOUGHT I wanted. I was right about some things wrong about others. Other stuff changed, and continues to change over time.

2) By trying ahead of time to decide on the type of relationship that was right for me I was lowering my odds even further because I was putting more and more restrictions on what type of relationship/romantic situation I would be willing to try.

It didn't help that as a shy, kissless virgin my bargaining position was already...suboptimal. And here I was trying to silently dictate terms to women who had no compelling reason to care what I wanted. Partly because they didn't know I existed because I was too busy perfecting the relationship in my head to talk to any of the actual women living and breathing outside of it. Which is a shame, because if I had, I might have learned sooner that while I'm not perfect, I have more to offer a romantic partner than I realized.

The Wisp wrote:Um, no. Even if we're just talking about a fuckbuddy situation, she's certainly getting something out of it. In fact, the same thing the man is getting: sex. Not all women who want sex want a relationship.

Not just sex. Sex with YOU. So if this is what you're offering, I guess the next step would be to find the answer to: "What would make sex with theWisp a worthwhile experience for her, better than the many other things she could be dong with her time?" and figure out how to express that.

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Post by Guest on Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:51 pm

Dan_Brodribb wrote:
It didn't help that as a shy, kissless virgin my bargaining position was already...suboptimal. And here I was trying to silently dictate terms to women who had no compelling reason to care what I wanted. Partly because they didn't know I existed because I was too busy perfecting the relationship in my head to talk to any of the actual women living and breathing outside of it. Which is a shame, because if I had, I might have learned sooner that while I'm not perfect, I have more to offer a romantic partner than I realized.

I'm still in that bolded bit and that scares me. I still have zero experience, I still haven't kissed a girl and I haven't the slightest clue as to how in the hell to get out of this hole. I feel like I'm fucked in that regard. Uh-oh I know I'm not perfect and I have indeed talked to actual women out in the world and I've gotten a whole heap of nothing. So, I'm stuck on what to do next. D: I'm sure I have plenty to offer, but nobody's really been willing to gimme a chance, so I'm still kinda stuck in yet another loop.

EDIT: Sorry! Kneejerk reaction. Razz

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Post by The Wisp on Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:23 pm

I am happy to continue this discussion, but I don't want to derail this thread from Bob's questions. So, Bob, if you feel this is getting too far afield into my stuff that's not relevant to you, feel free to ask for this discussion to be split off into a new thread.

eselle28 wrote:I understand the difference and think your desire for a friend with benefits is valid. However, I think it's worth remembering that some women would find a fuckbuddy more appealing than a friend with benefits. As one of them, I'd say that a friend with benefits comes with many of the aspects of relationships I dislike and few of the ones that are appealing to me - not going out on dates but spending non-sex time together is a no go for me, since that has historically meant dull, high-effort-for-me TV dates or group socializing where the friend with benefits makes it hard for me to meet other partners. That's not to say you should change your wants, but sometimes men looking for friends with benefits frame themselves as "not like those other guys," and it's worth remembering that people don't always seek the same packages.

Noted, and I can see why some people would feel that way. My idea of a FWB is like, for instance, "hey, let's play video games for a few hours before we fuck" or something, not that I would expect her to cook for me or for us to go out to large group events with me. As I said, I'm fine with a fuckbuddy. From my perspective, though, that seems to me to be more risky (especially with people in my age group, frankly) because it's more likely to be objectifying, impersonal, transactional, have more mechanical sex, and so on, which are things I want to avoid.

Caffeinated wrote:And that's where the lack of experience comes in. I've had a number of sexual partners who were very inexperienced (as in I was their first or second partner), and with a couple notable exceptions, the enjoyment derived from the encounter (on a purely physical, sexual level) was, shall we say, a bit lopsided. The ones that were the most enjoyable encounters were in the context of a relationship. It's somewhat less straightforward for a man to be a good sexual partner to a woman than vice versa, and takes more effort. I forget where I read that guys were less invested in their partner's pleasure in a casual hookup than with a girlfriend, but it matched my experiences.

Isn't the common refrain around here the experience doesn't matter as long as you're enthusiastic, GGG, and listen to your partner, and that everybody basically starts at 0 with a new sexual partner? Do you not agree with that?

I would certainly care about pleasing a woman, though she would have to communicate if I were to do it well, obviously.

Caffeinated wrote:Your definition of a FWB sounds an awful lot like an early stage of a relationship, except that you've precluded the possibility of any additional feelings developing.

What's wrong with that?

PintsizeBro wrote:The easiest way to give others that assurance is to have a good reputation, but of course the only way to get a good reputation is to engage in several casual relationships and have all of them go well.

And the reputation would only help if I had an active enough social life such that enough people would know me for the reputation to spread.

Wisp, you're in a difficult spot because you want casual relationships for their own sake, not because you see them as a stepping stone to a more traditional relationship. Getting a reputation of being good in casual relationships is somewhat of a Catch-22 for you, but barring that I recommend you find ways to demonstrate that you're respectful of other people's boundaries and women's sexual agency. Also, that you like fun and don't take yourself too seriously.

Yeah, it is quite the catch-22 (also, I'm not really super "fun" in the traditional sense of the word).

Dan_Brodribb wrote:When I was a kissless virgin, I also had ideas about what I wanted from a relationship. What I thought would be best, what I thought was safest, what I thought I could handle. There were two problems.

1) I had no relationship or sexual experience so I didn't know what I wanted. I only knew what I THOUGHT I wanted. I was right about some things wrong about others. Other stuff changed, and continues to change over time.

2) By trying ahead of time to decide on the type of relationship that was right for me I was lowering my odds even further because I was putting more and more restrictions on what type of relationship/romantic situation I would be willing to try.

It didn't help that as a shy, kissless virgin my bargaining position was already...suboptimal. And here I was trying to silently dictate terms to women who had no compelling reason to care what I wanted. Partly because they didn't know I existed because I was too busy perfecting the relationship in my head to talk to any of the actual women living and breathing outside of it. Which is a shame, because if I had, I might have learned sooner that while I'm not perfect, I have more to offer a romantic partner than I realized.

I don't feel like I have very specific standards for a relationship. Really my main dealbreakers are indefinitely committed and/or long-term monogamy and getting stuck on the relationship escalator. And yes, I realize that those might change with experience, but I'm not going to act against those and hope they change from my current position.

The Wisp wrote:
Not just sex. Sex with YOU. So if this is what you're offering, I guess the next step would be to find the answer to: "What would make sex with theWisp a worthwhile experience for her, better than the many other things she could be dong with her time?" and figure out how to express that.

Well, as Pintsizedbro said, it's a catch-22 :\
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Post by eselle28 on Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:53 pm

The Wisp wrote:Noted, and I can see why some people would feel that way. My idea of a FWB is like, for instance, "hey, let's play video games for a few hours before we fuck" or something, not that I would expect her to cook for me or for us to go out to large group events with me. As I said, I'm fine with a fuckbuddy. From my perspective, though, that seems to me to be more risky (especially with people in my age group, frankly) because it's more likely to be objectifying, impersonal, transactional, have more mechanical sex, and so on, which are things I want to avoid.

I'm going to push back a little against this, not because what you want is wrong but rather because I think your underlying assumptions are wrong, at least when applied to a broad spectrum of women your age. "Hey, let's play video games for a few hours before we fuck," is less likely to be transactional and objectifying if you find a woman who likes video games, enjoys the same particular kind of video games you do, and doesn't want to spend your free nights doing other activities or seeking other partners. This is a fairly high standard, though, and requires you to find someone quite similar - maybe even more similar than a serious partner would need to be.

With more of a mismatch, this same proposal can instead be one person putting up with the other's choice if activity in exchange for sex or as a back door to a relationship. (Since you're worried about being the person taken advantage of, imagine if the offer is instead to come over and watch a female-coded TV show you don't like all that much for a few hours before fucking and see if it still feels non-transactional.) Similarly, a fuckbuddy relationship can be highly transactional and mechanical, or it can be between two people who mostly like each other's company sexually and otherwise respect each other's time.

Whatever you seek, I think it's more important to pay attention to actual dynamics rather than making assumptions about relationship structures being more or less ethical, especially when evaluating ones outside the norm.


Caffeinated wrote:Your definition of a FWB sounds an awful lot like an early stage of a relationship, except that you've precluded the possibility of any additional feelings developing.

What's wrong with that?

There's nothing wrong with it, but it's a big ask, and I think you'll find that many experienced women will reject it (either as having too much potential for attachment, or on the other side, being too low on the early stage excitement stuff) and that some less experienced ones may use it as a back door for commitment or start with good intentions but develop feelings anyway.

This is one of the trickier interactions to manage, and and a kind of casual sex that may not be in as high of demand among women. I'd say it's good you're open to multiple types of casual relationships, and if something like this comes along, great but proceed carefully.
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Post by The Wisp on Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:57 pm

eselle28 wrote:I'm going to push back a little against this, not because what you want is wrong but rather because I think your underlying assumptions are wrong, at least when applied to a broad spectrum of women your age. "Hey, let's play video games for a few hours before we fuck," is less likely to be transactional and objectifying if you find a woman who likes video games, enjoys the same particular kind of video games you do, and doesn't want to spend your free nights doing other activities or seeking other partners. This is a fairly high standard, though, and requires you to find someone quite similar - maybe even more similar than a serious partner would need to be.

Well that wasn't meant as a specific demand, but rather an example of a possible dynamic. Ideally, we can like each other and enjoy each others company in non-sexual areas, even if only a little. I have no real preferences for what that will specifically look like.

With more of a mismatch, this same proposal can instead be one person putting up with the other's choice if activity in exchange for sex or as a back door to a relationship. (Since you're worried about being the person taken advantage of, imagine if the offer is instead to come over and watch a female-coded TV show you don't like all that much for a few hours before fucking and see if it still feels non-transactional.) Similarly, a fuckbuddy relationship can be highly transactional and mechanical, or it can be between two people who mostly like each other's company sexually and otherwise respect each other's time.

Whatever you seek, I think it's more important to pay attention to actual dynamics rather than making assumptions about relationship structures being more or less ethical, especially when evaluating ones outside the norm.

Well, I never said that fuckbuddy relationships were less ethical, rather that I was worried that certain bad qualities might be somewhat more likely to occur in them. Maybe they aren't more likely.

There's nothing wrong with it, but it's a big ask, and I think you'll find that many experienced women will reject it (either as having too much potential for attachment, or on the other side, being too low on the early stage excitement stuff) and that some less experienced ones may use it as a back door for commitment or start with good intentions but develop feelings anyway.

Er, I'm not sure what you are saying in the bolded part.

Maybe I'm naive, but even if they (or I) do develop feelings, why does developing feelings have to mean wanting to all of the sudden be monogamous, committed, enmeshed, and on the relationship escalator? Why do these things always have to be "up or out"?

This is one of the trickier interactions to manage,

This is so not intuitive to me. Most of the complexities of relationships seem to come from the commitment (managing finances, splitting chores, meeting families, committing to spending lost of time together, when/if to get married, when/if to have kids, ETA: Oh, and the whole "you can never have sex with anybody else ever again or massive drama will ensue" thing, etc.) while keeping things more casual avoids those complexities. But, I take your word for it.

and and a kind of casual sex that may not be in as high of demand among women.


Yeah... I'm finding that out about a lot things about me, namely my personality type and interests, as well. That could be it's own discussion, but it's frustrating.
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Post by Caffeinated on Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:08 pm

The Wisp wrote:
Caffeinated wrote:And that's where the lack of experience comes in. I've had a number of sexual partners who were very inexperienced (as in I was their first or second partner), and with a couple notable exceptions, the enjoyment derived from the encounter (on a purely physical, sexual level) was, shall we say, a bit lopsided. The ones that were the most enjoyable encounters were in the context of a relationship. It's somewhat less straightforward for a man to be a good sexual partner to a woman than vice versa, and takes more effort. I forget where I read that guys were less invested in their partner's pleasure in a casual hookup than with a girlfriend, but it matched my experiences.

Isn't the common refrain around here the experience doesn't matter as long as you're enthusiastic, GGG, and listen to your partner, and that everybody basically starts at 0 with a new sexual partner? Do you not agree with that?

Yes, it is a common refrain around here and one I'm pretty sure I myself have sung. So yes, I'm contradicting some things I've said before. (I'm not sure if I'm right this time, was right the other time, wrong both times, or right both times in highly context-dependent ways.)

But the thing I read about men being less invested in their casual partners' pleasure than in a girlfriend's pleasure means they (the men) are less enthusiastic, less GGG, and less likely to really listen to their partner when it comes to a casual thing. I've had some experiences that suggest that is true. And it doesn't have to even really be in a malicious or selfish way. It's more that without a certain level of mutual trust, it can be harder to get to that GGG place. Instead, the encounters can tend to follow a sort of script, based on a pattern of sex acts considered typical or expected. (I had a series of three casual encounters in a row where each of three different men seemed to be following exactly the same script for what to do in bed. It was a little eerie.)

The Wisp wrote:I would certainly care about pleasing a woman, though she would have to communicate if I were to do it well, obviously.

And again, this is a trickier thing in a casual setup than a relationship one. Even women who are totally fine with casual sex can have trouble feeling comfortable enough with a new partner to really communicate well. I mean, it can be scary to tell a fantasy to even a partner you trust completely. It's a very vulnerable feeling.

The Wisp wrote:
Caffeinated wrote:Your definition of a FWB sounds an awful lot like an early stage of a relationship, except that you've precluded the possibility of any additional feelings developing.

What's wrong with that?

A.) Not that it's wrong, but that we might all be working from different definitions of these various things, which makes for a more confusing conversation.

B.) What's wrong with it in my view is that it closes off possibilities without having explored them, and in a way that makes your dating/sex life considerably harder.
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Post by readertorider on Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:15 pm

The Wisp wrote:
Caffeinated wrote:
They want a young (and presumably attractive) woman to give them free access to her body for nothing.
Um, no. Even if we're just talking about a fuckbuddy situation, she's certainly getting something out of it. In fact, the same thing the man is getting: sex. Not all women who want sex want a relationship.

And a lot of young women either don't care about slut shaming or have social circles where it doesn't happen, so I reject your premise.
I was *this* close to asking a friend if he wanted to have sex with me during college's senior week. I liked him, trusted him, was curious, and wanted to have a bit of fun. I definitely agree that women desire sex and may mot be influenced by the possibility that their number of partners will change how others view them (I'm pretty sure that there would have been people who would have looked at me differently, but I'm also confident that I could let their... whatever... roll off of me).

I definitely agree with Caffeinated's post, however. I don't necessarily think that people judging me for a number is a huge motivator, but I think it's possible along with a number of other sex related risks--pregnancy, STDs, unwanted attachment (on either side), bodily injury/rape if guy isn't who I think he is, etc--even a guy bragging about the experience to his friends would feel icky to me. But if I want sex anyway I want to have it with someone who I think will make it a good experience whether like my friend (Caffeinated's second to last point) or someone else. To me disentangling sex from the person I would have it with is a pointless exercise and in many cases the risks aren't worth the possible gain.

The Wisp wrote:

Caffeinated wrote:And that's where the lack of experience comes in. I've had a number of sexual partners who were very inexperienced (as in I was their first or second partner), and with a couple notable exceptions, the enjoyment derived from the encounter (on a purely physical, sexual level) was, shall we say, a bit lopsided. The ones that were the most enjoyable encounters were in the context of a relationship. It's somewhat less straightforward for a man to be a good sexual partner to a woman than vice versa, and takes more effort. I forget where I read that guys were less invested in their partner's pleasure in a casual hookup than with a girlfriend, but it matched my experiences.

Isn't the common refrain around here the experience doesn't matter as long as you're enthusiastic, GGG, and listen to your partner, and that everybody basically starts at 0 with a new sexual partner? Do you not agree with that?

I would certainly care about pleasing a woman, though she would have to communicate if I were to do it well, obviously.
The bolded bit sounds like work, especially to someone who doesn't actually know how her body would react to partnered sex. Not that communication isn't necessary, but there's a line between providing a detailed tutorial to a guy who's getting increasingly frustrated and offering advice to someone who's also capable of taking initiative, interpreting nonverbal clues, and wants to explore together (Disclaimer: I'm typing from nonsexual experience).

Ignoring that though, the thing about enthusiasm, being GGG, and listening, is that outside of knowing a guy for a period of time (dating, very good friends) or knowing his reputation, I have no way of knowing if he fits those traits. In my experience, often the guys who label themselves as "nice", "neat/tidy",  or "feminists" aren't using the same definition as I am, so the guys who talk about listening (not meaning you specifically) aren't exactly giving themselves a stellar reference. I don't know if everyone starts from 0 with a new partner is true or not, but I think the learning curve is definitely different for different people with different attitudes.

To get to your original question, though BobTheNinja,

My friends who are interested in casual sex seem to use a combination of Tinder + meeting people at parties or through friends or a gym. I think it would make sense for you to focus on broadening your social life (going out with friends, joining a <physical activity> meetup group, volunteering, cooking classes, whatever takes your fancy), while also putting more effort into your Tinder activities.

I don't know what the most 'strategic' breakdown of the above would look like in terms of your time/effort--who uses Tinder for what seems to change across the country for one thing--but my advice would be to gradually try a handful of options and switch to something else if you feel like you're forcing yourself to do it because it may lead to sex. Ideally meeting people should not feel like pulling teeth--if you're frustrated it's bad because feeling frustrated is no fun and because people can sense your frustration/bitterness and it's not attractive. Take breaks from online dating when you get tired of it, try a different activity if you hate salsa dancing, spends nights with friends with no expectations of meeting other people. Nothing is guaranteed, so you might as well make the journey as painless/amusing/fun as humanly possible.

To echo quite a few people, however, the friends who I mentioned earlier are a combination of attractive, interesting, generally socially adept, and comfortable/laid back about sex. It's difficult to be (and convey that you are) a good partner for casual sex and having no experience will likely only increase your difficulty setting. It may be worth it to take another look at what you want. If you do know what you want, however, please both be patient with yourself and understand that there really isn't a foolproof method of finding someone to have sex (of any variety) with you.
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Post by eselle28 on Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:21 pm

There's nothing wrong with it, but it's a big ask, and I think you'll find that many experienced women will reject it (either as having too much potential for attachment, or on the other side, being too low on the early stage excitement stuff) and that some less experienced ones may use it as a back door for commitment or start with good intentions but develop feelings anyway.

Er, I'm not sure what you are saying in the bolded part.

Maybe I'm naive, but even if they (or I) do develop feelings, why does developing feelings have to mean wanting to all of the sudden be monogamous, committed, enmeshed, and on the relationship escalator? Why do these things always have to be "up or out"?

I'm not talking about monogamy or up and out at all - none of that has much to do with early stage excitement! I'm looking more at the hanging out at home bit, which actually reminds me of many more settled relationships. Women are different from each other, of course, but it sounds like you're describing a relationship that's low on both commitment and the mutual courtship and infatuation that characterizes some uncommitted relationships. It's the combination that I think may be a hard sell.

This is so not intuitive to me. Most of the complexities of relationships seem to come from the commitment (managing finances, splitting chores, meeting families, committing to spending lost of time together, when/if to get married, when/if to have kids, ETA: Oh, and the whole "you can never have sex with anybody else ever again or massive drama will ensue" thing, etc.) while keeping things more casual avoids those complexities. But, I take your word for it.

You avoid some of those, not others, and there are a different set of complexities. There are still differences of opinion about how much and in what ways people spend time together, and there can still be massive amounts of drama about non-monogamy - one person might be upset when their partner finds someone else, or jealous because they have more trouble attracting others, or want to set up the parameters of the relationship in ways that make it hard for their partner to actually find someone.

I'd say there are somewhat more conflicts about issues like canceling and whose place to stay at (or whether someone resents it if there's only one option) and balance between showing consideration and asking too much intimacy, if only because casual couples have fewer opportunities and less motive to hash things out, and there can be awkwardness when one or both people are also seeking other kinds of relationships and may ask that the casual one end (and then perhaps begin again).

Relationships of all sorts have strong points and weak points, but all types can come with conflict and drama (though of course, none of them has to).
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Post by The Wisp on Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:48 pm

Caffeinated wrote:B.) What's wrong with it in my view is that it closes off possibilities without having explored them, and in a way that makes your dating/sex life considerably harder.

I'm be open to anything to one degree or another based on the circumstances. That said, I'd be much more open to exploring a committed and serious relationship if that wasn't almost always packaged with absolute monogamy* and moving in together fairly quickly.

*ETA: And just clarify, I'm not necessarily saying that there has to be full-blown polyamory with multiple super close romantic partners. But no sex with anybody else ever until the relationship ends, if it ends, no matter how casual? No thanks.
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Post by The Wisp on Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:16 am

Sorry for the double post.

eselle28 wrote:I'm not talking about monogamy or up and out at all - none of that has much to do with early stage excitement! I'm looking more at the hanging out at home bit, which actually reminds me of many more settled relationships. Women are different from each other, of course, but it sounds like you're describing a relationship that's low on both commitment and the mutual courtship and infatuation that characterizes some uncommitted relationships. It's the combination that I think may be a hard sell.

Um, am I? What exactly do you mean by mutual courtship and infatuation? I certainly want those more intense feelings!
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Post by eselle28 on Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:32 am

The Wisp wrote:Sorry for the double post.

eselle28 wrote:I'm not talking about monogamy or up and out at all - none of that has much to do with early stage excitement! I'm looking more at the hanging out at home bit, which actually reminds me of many more settled relationships. Women are different from each other, of course, but it sounds like you're describing a relationship that's low on both commitment and the mutual courtship and infatuation that characterizes some uncommitted relationships. It's the combination that I think may be a hard sell.

Um, am I? What exactly do you mean by mutual courtship and infatuation? I certainly want those more intense feelings!

hey, let's play video games for a few hours before we fuck

That's pretty contrary to what at least a lot of women might consider conducive to mutual courtship and intense feelings. And I do think this may be one of the keys to learning to present yourself as a fun, exciting casual sex partner rather than the stereotype of the lazy young guy who wants to hang out at a woman's place, do something he likes for a few hours, have sex with her, and then not call her again until next Saturday night when he wants her to skip girls' night out so he can come over.

It might be helpful for you to think of some ways you can communicate you're seeking that, to figure out how to provide that experience in low key environments you like, and to think of some activities that might be conducive to it. This is also the reason I sometimes recommend more date like activities to guys seeking this kind of interaction, though, at least at the beginning and if they're not used to building this kind of relationship. It's not about spending money - Dutch is fine - but more that it can be tougher to maintain these feelings when people are sitting around in sweats in front of the TV, let alone build them. (And, no, you shouldn't do all of this work. She should do some too. But I do think it often requires stretching beyond the initial vision of the ideal friend with benefits relationship that wouldn't require any changes from daily routine.)
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Post by The Wisp on Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:09 am

eselle28 wrote:That's pretty contrary to what at least a lot of women might consider conducive to mutual courtship and intense feelings. And I do think this may be one of the keys to learning to present yourself as a fun, exciting casual sex partner rather than the stereotype of the lazy young guy who wants to hang out at a woman's place, do something he likes for a few hours, have sex with her, and then not call her again until next Saturday night when he wants her to skip girls' night out so he can come over.

Thank you, that make sense!

eselle28 wrote:It might be helpful for you to think of some ways you can communicate you're seeking that, to figure out how to provide that experience in low key environments you like, and to think of some activities that might be conducive to it. This is also the reason I sometimes recommend more date like activities to guys seeking this kind of interaction, though, at least at the beginning and if they're not used to building this kind of relationship. It's not about spending money - Dutch is fine - but more that it can be tougher to maintain these feelings when people are sitting around in sweats in front of the TV, let alone build them.

That's interesting. My first instinct would be to avoid date-like activities because that sets up a traditional relationship frame, and the other person would assume that I wanted more than I actually did; it's the first step on the relationship escalator. But I guess people don't make that assumption, or don't necessarily? I guess one could make their intentions clear pretty early with something like "I'm not looking for anything serious". But then, I wonder if that might come off as mixed signals if we're doing dinner and a movie but then keeping things non-committed and casual.
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