Statutory Rape Laws

Page 2 of 2 Previous  1, 2

Go down

Re: Statutory Rape Laws

Post by eselle28 on Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:16 pm

PintsizeBro wrote:The thing about "probation so he won't do it again," that's all well and good if he actually did something wrong, but a couple of teens who are absolutely convinced they're in love? They're going to have sex again, and I don't think they should be punished.

I notice the conversation has also gone with the standard assumption that the boy is the older party, but what if the girl is older? Does that change things for you guys? Should a 16 year old girl get probation for having consensual sex with her 14 year old boyfriend?

I think the Romeo and Juliet Gap should be more like 4 years, so I don't think a 16-year-old and a 14-year-old should be a concern of the judiciary system at all. If we're talking about a 19-year-old and a 14-year-old who are actually trying to have a relationship, then I think probation is a good tool to keep the older person from further harming the younger one. That applies to a 19-year-old woman as much as it would to a 19-year-old man, and to same sex partners as much as opposite sex ones. I think that case is easier than the linked one. That guy made a mistake in not doing some checking up on who he was having a one night stand with. When a 19-year-old is actually dating someone who's in the 8th or 9th grade, that signals far more intent, and I don't think the explanation for the choice of such a young partner rather than someone who's allowed to stay up past midnight is usually hearts and roses and romance.
avatar
eselle28
General Oversight Moderator

Posts : 1994
Reputation : 999
Join date : 2014-09-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Statutory Rape Laws

Post by Enail on Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:17 pm

The younger you get, the bigger a 3-year age gap is, proportionally.
avatar
Enail
Admin

Posts : 3734
Reputation : 1988
Join date : 2014-09-22

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Statutory Rape Laws

Post by PintsizeBro on Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:18 pm

Fair enough. I think ultimately we're on the same page - we should keep adults from exploiting vulnerable teens, but we shouldn't be punishing teens for being horny.

In the case of same sex partners, things get really shitty for the young people - a big part of why you see gay teens pursuing relationships with adults rather than other gay teens is that they live in a place where they fear for their safety if they come out. The adults are still predatory in behavior, but the poor kids.

PintsizeBro

Posts : 307
Reputation : 233
Join date : 2015-02-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Statutory Rape Laws

Post by reboot on Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:32 pm

Enail wrote:The younger you get, the bigger a 3-year age gap is, proportionally.

This would be totally complicated, but could there be a sliding scale age gap? It seems like the only way to do this in a logical way that also recognizes the differences in psychological development.

And something that just occurred to me is that all of these rules only apply to sexual relationships, but age gaps in romantic but nonsexual relationships can be pretty damaging/exploitive too. I saw a lot of big age gap couples growing up that were pretty disturbing, but did not involve sex because of religion until after marriage. 16 was legal age for marriage without parental consent and 14 with parental consent when I was growing up in UT so I saw some pretty squicky situations of older men dating 13 year olds and marrying at 16.
avatar
reboot
Moderator of "Other Relationships" and "Gender, Identity and Society"

Posts : 2514
Reputation : 1005
Join date : 2014-09-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Statutory Rape Laws

Post by PintsizeBro on Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:40 pm

reboot wrote:
Enail wrote:The younger you get, the bigger a 3-year age gap is, proportionally.

This would be totally complicated, but could there be a sliding scale age gap? It seems like the only way to do this in a logical way that also recognizes the differences in psychological development.
Half your age + 7? I'm being a little facetious, but not entirely.

PintsizeBro

Posts : 307
Reputation : 233
Join date : 2015-02-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Statutory Rape Laws

Post by reboundstudent on Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:40 pm

PintsizeBro wrote:Certainly don't charge them with production and distribution of child porn for swapping nude selfies! That's not protecting anyone from anything. I made a few attempts at expressing how utterly enraged I get at the thought of that, but I wasn't able to write that out in a way I was satisfied with...

I think that kind of depends. Swapping a nudie selfie you took of yourself with a boyfriend or some friends? Should not be prosecuted. Passing around a nude picture of someone else without their express permission? Should be prosecuted, as that IS child pornography distribution; the subject did not/is too young to consent to third-party distribution. I've read stories of young women who emailed their boyfriend a nude photo, and he then proceeded to text it out to all of his friends without her being aware. That second part should be punishable.
avatar
reboundstudent

Posts : 460
Reputation : 261
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Statutory Rape Laws

Post by eselle28 on Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:43 pm

reboot wrote:
Enail wrote:The younger you get, the bigger a 3-year age gap is, proportionally.

This would be totally complicated, but could there be a sliding scale age gap? It seems like the only way to do this in a logical way that also recognizes the differences in psychological development.

Some laws do that, including the Colorado one linked. I could see something like 4 years if the younger person is at least 14 and 2 years if the younger person is under 14?

And something that just occurred to me is that all of these rules only apply to sexual relationships, but age gaps in romantic but nonsexual relationships can be pretty damaging/exploitive too. I saw a lot of big age gap couples growing up that were pretty disturbing, but did not involve sex because of religion until after marriage. 16 was legal age for marriage without parental consent and 14 with parental consent when I was growing up in UT so I saw some pretty squicky situations of older men dating 13 year olds and marrying at 16.

There's really no way to criminalize that, but I agree that sort of grooming is super inappropriate. I'm going to be even more of a stick in the mud than I've already come across as being and say that I don't think people should be allowed to marry before they're 18. Period. Even if they're in love. Even if there's a female partner who is pregnant or a mother. If the relationship is strong enough to justify a marriage, it should be strong enough to last for a year or two longer until everyone involved is 18.
avatar
eselle28
General Oversight Moderator

Posts : 1994
Reputation : 999
Join date : 2014-09-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Statutory Rape Laws

Post by reboot on Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:40 pm

eselle28 wrote:
reboot wrote:And something that just occurred to me is that all of these rules only apply to sexual relationships, but age gaps in romantic but nonsexual relationships can be pretty damaging/exploitive too. I saw a lot of big age gap couples growing up that were pretty disturbing, but did not involve sex because of religion until after marriage. 16 was legal age for marriage without parental consent and 14 with parental consent when I was growing up in UT so I saw some pretty squicky situations of older men dating 13 year olds and marrying at 16.

There's really no way to criminalize that, but I agree that sort of grooming is super inappropriate. I'm going to be even more of a stick in the mud than I've already come across as being and say that I don't think people should be allowed to marry before they're 18. Period. Even if they're in love. Even if there's a female partner who is pregnant or a mother. If the relationship is strong enough to justify a marriage, it should be strong enough to last for a year or two longer until everyone involved is 18.

I completely agree, I was just struck by the idea that only sex is criminalizable. I suppose it is like emotional vs physical abuse in that only one of those has jail time despite both being damaging

@RBS: I totally agree about criminalizing the distribution/misuse of images without consent. I would even extend it to any images, not just nude or sexy ones
avatar
reboot
Moderator of "Other Relationships" and "Gender, Identity and Society"

Posts : 2514
Reputation : 1005
Join date : 2014-09-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Statutory Rape Laws

Post by The Wisp on Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:45 pm

reboot wrote:
I completely agree, I was just struck by the idea that only sex is criminalizable. I suppose it is like emotional vs physical abuse in that only one of those has jail time despite both being damaging

True, though I think the reason is that any law that would be used against such relationships would be also stopping a lot of normal and healthy younger-older interactions. The line is simply too gray.
avatar
The Wisp

Posts : 896
Reputation : 198
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Statutory Rape Laws

Post by Caffeinated on Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:57 pm

The Wisp wrote:
Caffeinated wrote:I'd say 2 years maximum. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to date someone more than two years different in age when one of them is under 18. The differences in maturity are just way too big.

Eh, that would make my brother, who was 2.5 years older than his high school girlfriend who was 14 when he was 16 when they met, a criminal (assuming they had sexual contact, I'm not 100% sure about that either way).

Actually, I'm ok with that. I assume your brother is a law-abiding person and that if a 2 year max had been the law then he would've obeyed that law and therefore wouldn't be a criminal.

To me, one year apart or the exact same age is far more appropriate for relationships between kids. The second year in the 2 year difference is to make sure the kids that are 1.5 years apart in actual age but are only one year apart in school grade because of the way schools deal with birthdates and school-starting ages aren't in trouble. The second year is the buffer zone in my setup.
avatar
Caffeinated

Posts : 455
Reputation : 273
Join date : 2014-12-08

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Statutory Rape Laws

Post by Guest on Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:13 pm

PintsizeBro wrote:The thing about "probation so he won't do it again," that's all well and good if he actually did something wrong, but a couple of teens who are absolutely convinced they're in love? They're going to have sex again, and I don't think they should be punished.

I notice the conversation has also gone with the standard assumption that the boy is the older party, but what if the girl is older? Does that change things for you guys? Should a 16 year old girl get probation for having consensual sex with her 14 year old boyfriend?

I hope this isn't a derail, but interestingly, although my brain says, "yes, probation," my emotional reaction is a lot lower.

Then I tried it with same-sex couples: 16-year-old boy with 14-year-old boy? PROBLEM. 16-year-old girl with 14-year-old girl? PROBLEM.

It's really odd how my brain is so conditioned to see girl: prey and boy:aggressor that it overrides my logic about age for my emotional response. In the male-male scenario, I see the older boy as inappropriate. With F/F, I see the younger girl as really susceptible.

I know this is all screwed up and wrong, and like I said: yes, the law should apply with ANY mix. But the cultural baggage, it is strong.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Statutory Rape Laws

Post by PintsizeBro on Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:32 pm

reboundstudent wrote:
PintsizeBro wrote:Certainly don't charge them with production and distribution of child porn for swapping nude selfies! That's not protecting anyone from anything. I made a few attempts at expressing how utterly enraged I get at the thought of that, but I wasn't able to write that out in a way I was satisfied with...

I think that kind of depends. Swapping a nudie selfie you took of yourself with a boyfriend or some friends? Should not be prosecuted. Passing around a nude picture of someone else without their express permission? Should be prosecuted, as that IS child pornography distribution; the subject did not/is too young to consent to third-party distribution. I've read stories of young women who emailed their boyfriend a nude photo, and he then proceeded to text it out to all of his friends without her being aware. That second part should be punishable.
This should be illegal regardless of the age of the person in the photo. And in more and more places, it is. "Revenge porn" laws are hitting the books, and more power to them.

PintsizeBro

Posts : 307
Reputation : 233
Join date : 2015-02-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Statutory Rape Laws

Post by reboot on Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:40 pm

It is funny, ElizaJane, because I had the opposite feeling with same sex couples as I did for heterosexual couples in that I felt bigger age gaps were appropriate for some completely irrational reason. Logically I know it should make no difference but my emotional response says otherwise. And I have no idea why other than my gay friends in HS seemed to benefit from relationships with older people in that they had mentors for being gay in UT in late 1980s-1999s and in many cases being a gay Mormon in UT during same time frame. Not that this hand waves away the inappropriateness, it just might explain my mind-gut mismatch
avatar
reboot
Moderator of "Other Relationships" and "Gender, Identity and Society"

Posts : 2514
Reputation : 1005
Join date : 2014-09-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Statutory Rape Laws

Post by Gentleman Johnny on Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:52 pm

eselle28 wrote:
This case? It's one of those tough ones where things didn't work as they should. The problem isn't so much the law as what sounds like a prosecutor who has nothing better to do and who doesn't value relationships with local defense attorneys. I'd honestly say this kid probably should get a slap on the hand, but there are ways of doing that without ruining his life.

I will say that in that article "the prosecutor did us a favor" may not have been sarcasm. They had a deal, the judge overrode it. The prosecutor then stepped up and broke the deal, giving grounds for an appeal, a result that he was aware of in advance. Within the limits of his job, that may have been the only legitimate out he could give them.

_________________
Gentleman Johnny
Not John Galt
avatar
Gentleman Johnny

Posts : 555
Reputation : 213
Join date : 2014-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Statutory Rape Laws

Post by Gentleman Johnny on Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:58 pm

ElizaJane wrote:
Then I tried it with same-sex couples:  16-year-old boy with 14-year-old boy?  PROBLEM.  16-year-old girl with 14-year-old girl?  PROBLEM.

What about flipping it to 16 year old girl, 14 year old boy?

_________________
Gentleman Johnny
Not John Galt
avatar
Gentleman Johnny

Posts : 555
Reputation : 213
Join date : 2014-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Statutory Rape Laws

Post by eselle28 on Wed Jun 17, 2015 3:04 pm

Gentleman Johnny wrote:
eselle28 wrote:
This case? It's one of those tough ones where things didn't work as they should. The problem isn't so much the law as what sounds like a prosecutor who has nothing better to do and who doesn't value relationships with local defense attorneys. I'd honestly say this kid probably should get a slap on the hand, but there are ways of doing that without ruining his life.

I will say that in that article "the prosecutor did us a favor" may not have been sarcasm. They had a deal, the judge overrode it. The prosecutor then stepped up and broke the deal, giving grounds for an appeal, a result that he was aware of in advance. Within the limits of his job, that may have been the only legitimate out he could give them.

My understanding of the fact pattern is that the prosecutor broke the deal before the judge made any decision - though I suppose a well-meaning prosecutor might have done that purposefully upon learning that the judge for the case would be someone who found a woman in contempt of court for cursing while paying a traffic ticket. Either way, it sounds like the primary failure here is a judicial system with bad actors.
avatar
eselle28
General Oversight Moderator

Posts : 1994
Reputation : 999
Join date : 2014-09-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Statutory Rape Laws

Post by Guest on Wed Jun 17, 2015 4:50 pm

Gentleman Johnny wrote:
ElizaJane wrote:
Then I tried it with same-sex couples:  16-year-old boy with 14-year-old boy?  PROBLEM.  16-year-old girl with 14-year-old girl?  PROBLEM.

What about flipping it to 16 year old girl, 14 year old boy?

Well, the scenario I was reacting to WAS a 16yo girl/14yo boy. PintsizeBro pointed out that we'd all been talking with older boy, and suggested we ask about older girl. That was what I was saying was giving me an "intellectually wrong, but emotionally not pushing the same buttons" reaction.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Statutory Rape Laws

Post by Andrew Corvero on Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:33 pm

I think that the laws in my country are pretty good on paper: "Romeo and Juliet" laws with a 3 year age gap after you're 14 (which means a 14 year old can have a sexual relationship with a 17 year old, a 15 year old with a 18 year old, a 16 year old with a 19 year old and if you're 17 the limit is 20), the age of consent is fixed at 18 but it's illegal to have sex with anyone who is under your legal responsibility (teacher-student, employer-employee, tutor or mentor and pupil) until the person with the lowest responsibility is 21.

Also you can't be prosecuted for any sexual acts you commit on your own, so if you take a nude selfie of yourself and pass it around it's not a crime (even if you're a minor), but people who publish it or send it somewhere without your consent (or the consent of your parents if you're a minor) always commit a crime (either violation of privacy or possession of child pornography depending on your age).

That said I recognize that there's room for improvement and as a 29 year old I wouldn't date a 18 or 19 year old. Most of them look like kids anyways and pretty much all of them act like kids, so they're not attractive to me. I recently dated a 21 year old woman and while she looked and acted older than 21 it was very awkward and in hindsight I'm actually glad it didn't go forward.

I think that my ideal age is roughly between 25 and 35. Women in their late twenties/early thirties are usually much more attractive to me because they look and act like real women.

Of course one thing is the letter of the law and another thing is its application, although if anything the application is much more lenient than it should be. What we get are rich/powerful people who commit statutory rape and get away with it because they have good lawyers. Recently our former prime minister Silvio Berlusconi (an obscenely corrupt douchebag) was accused of paying for sex with a 17 year old Moroccan girl (which is child prostitution, a worse crime than statutory rape in Italy) and his lawyers made up a story about how he was "deceived" by the 17 year old (according to Berlusconi she apparently would have told him she was the niece of the former president of Egypt Mubarak and he didn't pay for sex or even had sex with her but simply paid her a hotel and spa treatments, not to mention prescriptions for contraceptives, because she was a diplomatic guest Facepalm )

_________________
"People don't just change who they are in an instant. It takes time, so you don't even know you're changing. Until one day you'll just a little bit different than you used to be and you can't even tell what the hell happened" (Rich Burlew)

"You shouldn't take advice from random strangers on the Internet too seriously" said the random stranger on the Internet.
avatar
Andrew Corvero

Posts : 184
Reputation : 136
Join date : 2015-04-17

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Statutory Rape Laws

Post by reboot on Wed Jun 17, 2015 6:26 pm

To totally derail for a moment, but Prime Minister Bunga Bunga was one of those politician's whose careers I watched with shock-awe-fascination-revulsion-horror It was like he was Teflon until the underage prostitution incident.

To get back on topic, Italy's laws definitely sound more reasonable. I think the US is kind of messy because each state writes and enforces their own statutes
avatar
reboot
Moderator of "Other Relationships" and "Gender, Identity and Society"

Posts : 2514
Reputation : 1005
Join date : 2014-09-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Statutory Rape Laws

Post by Gentleman Johnny on Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:58 pm

ElizaJane wrote:
Gentleman Johnny wrote:
ElizaJane wrote:
Then I tried it with same-sex couples:  16-year-old boy with 14-year-old boy?  PROBLEM.  16-year-old girl with 14-year-old girl?  PROBLEM.

What about flipping it to 16 year old girl, 14 year old boy?

Well, the scenario I was reacting to WAS a 16yo girl/14yo boy.  PintsizeBro pointed out that we'd all been talking with older boy, and suggested we ask about older girl.  That was what I was saying was giving me an "intellectually wrong, but emotionally not pushing the same buttons" reaction.

Ah, sorry, gotcha now.

_________________
Gentleman Johnny
Not John Galt
avatar
Gentleman Johnny

Posts : 555
Reputation : 213
Join date : 2014-10-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Statutory Rape Laws

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 2 Previous  1, 2

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum