Advice From A Sexually Experienced Man (AKA I Envy My Roommate)

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Post by Guest on Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:06 pm

I've mentioned before that ever since my roommate discovered that I was a virgin after accidentally admitting it to him, we can't go a single goddamn conversation without him trying to get updates on my progress with the Holy Grail Of Masculinity, getting laid.

Every time, I inevitably tell him that no, as a matter of fact I haven't talked to a single girl I don't already know since the last time he asked me that question, which is always a few days earlier.

Let us also remember that my roommate is basically Don Juan. Dude is rolling in the tail. Not even a conventionally attractive dude (not ugly either), just unbelievably charismatic. He's the center of all conversations, literally every girl I know wants his dick, if he wasn't so unaware of this, I'd probably hate him. We're friends because we're polar opposites. He's unbelievably tall and skinny, I'm short and stocky (I'd even say slightly chubby). He's extremely social with people, I can only really talk to people if I'm hammered. He comes from a poor background, I come from a wealthier background. He's black, I'm white. Like I said, polar opposites.

In fact, socially I am only ever referred to if in relation to something he did. It's always something "Roomie and Glides" did, and Roomie is referred to alone all the time about things he did. I am a nonentity in the social group, on a good day I can make jokes and goof off like the rest, but those are few and far between, and I generally spend most of my time on the outskirts, saying nothing.

The more I've known this dude, the more I've realized that he's singularly responsible for any social and romantic success I might've had. Every time a girl has been attracted to me (so twice), he's been the one who introduced us. They see me as Roomie Lite, and if they can't get him, they'll have to settle for the awkward stuttery nerd who is somehow closest to him.

Okay, I'm a little jealous of him, but he's still one of my best friends, so I just ignore all that and keep going. He's a great guy, one of the most compassionate and empathetic people I know. One of the very few who keeps on encouraging me to make films, even after all the failure I've had there.

Anyway, it's been annoying since for some reason, he'd assumed I wasn't a virgin. He could never reasonably think that I was like him and constantly hooking up, I'm way too much of a loser for that. The idea of Glides having a lot of sex, let alone with multiple people in a short period of time, is like North Korea suddenly becoming a democracy.

What I've noticed about sexually experienced people is how sex is nothing to them. It's nothing to Roomie, it's nothing to literally any person frequently having sex. It's as casual as breathing, as much of a certainty to happen as a corrupt politician becoming president. The problem that emerges is when they start assuming that this is the case for literally everyone but the most euphoric of neckbeards.

Now, my advantage is that I'm not a neckbeard, I practice basic hygiene and wear clean clothes, and that's basically it. But the sexually experienced person assumes that anyone who doesn't wear a fedora is getting ass at least occasionally. This is the problem Roomie encounters regarding me: I'm not a neckbeard, therefore I should be having sex. I have sex all the time, why isn't he?

Remember: in common society, not weird internet niches like this, a man is only as attractive as the people he has sex with, quantity, frequency, all that. Deny it all you want, you know I'm right.

Also remember that I've spent my entire adult life pretending to have limited experience. I'm far too unattractive to ever claim to be like Roomie (who can back up his claims, I've met every one of his sexual partners, all of whom confirmed it, all of whom are gorgeous), but several mediocre experiences with mediocre people sounds about right.

Just imagine me looking like the dullest, plainest person on the planet, with the dullest and plainest personality, and this is why no one wants to fuck me unless Roomie talks me up to them. I'm not kidding. And it works because he genuinely believes what he's saying.

So we've argued about this a bit. "Just talk to a girl, it's easy! Worst thing that'll happen is that they won't want to fuck you," which is entirely why I don't want to talk to them. Sad truth is that the only reason I want to talk to attractive people is to have sex with them, which is unbelievably disrespectful, which is unbelievably sexist, therefore I tend to avoid attractive women unless I'm forced to talk to them.

Therefore, why my most attractive female friends distinctly remember me not saying a word to them at first. I wanted to have sex with them, and it took me time to wean myself of my desires. Once I'd repressed all attraction for them, I could treat them normally, like human beings. It's wrong, but it's the only way to be respectful.

It's the Catch 22: confidence is attractive, but you need positive experiences to become confident. You can't be confident otherwise. Most people compensate by going to lots of parties and hooking up while drunk, but I'm not nearly cool enough to be invited to many parties.

Case in point: he's attempted on several occasions to hook me up with his female friends. Every attempt has failed miserably. They like me because he's talked me up, because I'm confident around him because I have nothing to lose, since I don't want to fuck him. So he describes me to them the way he sees me, which is confident and goofy and qualities that would probably be attractive to women if I wasn't also plainer than a bagel. Remember, you don't have to be physically attractive to have a friend.

Also remember that all of these girls wanted to fuck him at one point. He actually friendzones a lot of women, even more now since he's in a relationship right now. So that pent-up desire has to go to the next best thing: me. It's kinda sad, realizing that they want him and see me as a surrogate of him.

Now, back then I didn't know this, and actually entertained the thought that a woman could be genuinely attracted to me. Of course, we'd go on a date and something would go wrong. I'd be the stuttery mess that you all know and love (despite what a fucking asshole I am on here, I'm extremely quiet and timid IRL), the women would naturally hate this because shyness is a disgusting quality for anyone to have, and Roomie would berate me about this.

All he wants to do is help. He wants me to be happy. I almost wish he was pranking me because at least then he'd get something out of it.

I mean hey, all I can do about my problems is complain. I'm entirely helpless otherwise. I will never improve, I will never have sex, i will die alone. I literally repeat those statements like a mantra constantly, trying to make myself lose hope. Without hope, I am at my most reasonable and logical.

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Post by Enail on Sat Jun 20, 2015 4:16 pm

You know if it's bothering you, you're allowed to tell him you appreciate the help but you'd like him to lay off a bit on the getting laid issue. If he's as good a guy as you say, I'm sure he'll be able to understand that you'd rather not talk about it all the time.

Or if there's a kind of help that would be more useful to you, you could let him know what you'd like and ask him to back off on the rest. For example, I bet he would know some attractive women who are unavailable or have dealbreakers that would make them not a dating prospect for you, that you could get to know and practice being the version of you that your friend sees, around attractive women but without the pressure of wanting them to want you.

Glides wrote:
Case in point: he's attempted on several occasions to hook me up with his female friends. Every attempt has failed miserably. They like me because he's talked me up, because I'm confident around him because I have nothing to lose, since I don't want to fuck him. So he describes me to them the way he sees me, which is confident and goofy and qualities that would probably be attractive to women if I wasn't also plainer than a bagel. Remember, you don't have to be physically attractive to have a friend.

Also remember that all of these girls wanted to fuck him at one point. He actually friendzones a lot of women, even more now since he's in a relationship right now. So that pent-up desire has to go to the next best thing: me. It's kinda sad, realizing that they want him and see me as a surrogate of him.

Have you considered the possibility that they're not seeing you as a surrogate for him so much as they figure that, since someone who's opinion they value told them so, you've got a lot of good qualities that you're not comfortable enough around them to show, so they want to try and get to know you to see that side of you? Remember that the one thing they can see about you right away is how you look, so if they are still interested  when they first meet you, the issue isn't that you're not physically attractive so much as that when they try to get to know you, you get uncomfortable or defensive, so they aren't getting to see the good sides of you that your friend gets to see.

Also, shyness is not actually a disgusting quality. People like confidence, yes, and most people need some level of confidence to be able to interact with others enough to make connections, but quite a few women find a bit of shyness endearing in a guy.

Glides wrote:I mean hey, all I can do about my problems is complain. I'm entirely helpless otherwise. I will never improve, I will never have sex, i will die alone. I literally repeat those statements like a mantra constantly, trying to make myself lose hope. Without hope, I am at my most reasonable and logical.

I'd...suggest you consider the possibility that feeling like you're at your most reasonable and logical doesn't necessarily mean that you are at your most reasonable and logical. If your jerkbrain is the one evaluating, it's going to give the 'reasonable and logical' award to whatever thoughts align best with its own questionable logic.  

And you might find those statements reassuring in some way, but I suspect constantly reinforcing your fears and self-hatred like that is not a terribly helpful way to do it. I know you're going to laugh me out of this thread if I suggest repeating positive messages, and I think that might just have a backfire effect anyway, but what would you think about trying to replace that mantra with a neutral one?
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Post by Bumble on Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:09 pm

It's interesting how we can absorb messages that aren't meant for us or don't apply to us in order to remain comfortably foreveralone. We are stuck in a web of conventional wisdom (re: shyness, height), popular feminism (objectification), run through our infallible jerkbrain which leaves us incapable of forming romantic connections.

What is the truth? How hopeless are we? What is our responsibility? It's difficult to tell from inside.

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Post by Caffeinated on Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:18 pm

Glides wrote:Remember: in common society, not weird internet niches like this, a man is only as attractive as the people he has sex with, quantity, frequency, all that. Deny it all you want, you know I'm right.

Nope, still not buying that. In the Real Life parts of society I've been in, a quality man doesn't kiss and tell. So no one would be able to judge his attractiveness based on his partners. Also, all of the people on this forum (and every other place on the internet) do actually live in the physical world, and generally are reporting their view on how things are in their neck of the woods.

Glides wrote:So we've argued about this a bit. "Just talk to a girl, it's easy! Worst thing that'll happen is that they won't want to fuck you," which is entirely why I don't want to talk to them. Sad truth is that the only reason I want to talk to attractive people is to have sex with them, which is unbelievably disrespectful, which is unbelievably sexist, therefore I tend to avoid attractive women unless I'm forced to talk to them.

Therefore, why my most attractive female friends distinctly remember me not saying a word to them at first. I wanted to have sex with them, and it took me time to wean myself of my desires. Once I'd repressed all attraction for them, I could treat them normally, like human beings. It's wrong, but it's the only way to be respectful.

That's a pretty fucked up view of respect.

Glides wrote:I'd be the stuttery mess that you all know and love (despite what a fucking asshole I am on here, I'm extremely quiet and timid IRL), the women would naturally hate this because shyness is a disgusting quality for anyone to have, and Roomie would berate me about this.

This reminds me of a guy I knew in college. We initially met online (or the proto-version of online that was current in the mid-90s, which meant being able to chat with people on campus through the campus messaging system), and over chat he was funny and confident and could say whatever. We flirted a bit and then agreed to meet in person. I went over to his dorm room, and when I got there he sat there refusing to make eye contact or speak to me, just frozen with shyness. It wasn't until a couple years into school that he managed to unfreeze a bit when women were around.
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Post by Guest on Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:39 pm

Bumble wrote:It's interesting how we can absorb messages that aren't meant for us or don't apply to us in order to remain comfortably foreveralone. We are stuck in a web of conventional wisdom (re: shyness, height), popular feminism (objectification), run through our infallible jerkbrain which leaves us incapable of forming romantic connections.

What is the truth? How hopeless are we? What is our responsibility? It's difficult to tell from inside.

Dude, I don't even know. My personal "feminism" is filtered through all of the toxic layers I've developed over the years. I honestly don't think it'll ever be the "optimal" feminism, it'll always have something to do with trying to look progressive for the sake of being progressive. I know that it's the right way to think, I know that it's true in every way, and yet I can't stop the goddamn filters.

Mind you, it's not even a "I think women are objects but I'll pretend that I don't" kind of thing, I don't treat anyone like that. I just fall into the trap of complete and utter panic at the sight of an attractive woman, which makes me think I'm a rapist, which keeps me from talking to her. Ironically, the most feminist thing I can do is completely avoid her and avoid any possibility of being a misogynist. In the moment of panic, it's the most respectful thing I can do, relieve her of my overbearingly shy presence.

Which is literally why my jerkbrain will taunt me by saying "If you were attractive, you wouldn't be a rapist." It's not true, but it doesn't stop me from irrationally believing it in the subconscious part of my mind.

I don't want to objectify people. I don't want to hurt them. The only way to 100% guarantee this is to avoid anyone superior to myself and female. Irrational.

Caffeinated wrote:
Nope, still not buying that. In the Real Life parts of society I've been in, a quality man doesn't kiss and tell. So no one would be able to judge his attractiveness based on his partners. Also, all of the people on this forum (and every other place on the internet) do actually live in the physical world, and generally are reporting their view on how things are in their neck of the woods.

I wanna live where you live. It sounds so fucking peaceful.

That's a pretty fucked up view of respect.

You're telling me. I'm ashamed of that view. In my logical conscious mind, there's no problems. But the subconscious is the part that's sick and rotten and I can't kill it.

I think women can detect that part of me, maybe that's why. Or I'm ugly. Or shy. Or a combo of all of those things. I can never ever figure it out for sure.

This reminds me of a guy I knew in college. We initially met online (or the proto-version of online that was current in the mid-90s, which meant being able to chat with people on campus through the campus messaging system), and over chat he was funny and confident and could say whatever. We flirted a bit and then agreed to meet in person. I went over to his dorm room, and when I got there he sat there refusing to make eye contact or speak to me, just frozen with shyness. It wasn't until a couple years into school that he managed to unfreeze a bit when women were around.

God, that sounds exactly like me. I actually did meet a girl online once and met her IRL, and things went pretty horribly. Within minutes she'd lost all attraction to me. That was when I was fifteen. Of course, I was far more confident there. She knew what I looked like and everything. I still beat myself up for how I handled things there.

Stuttery. Fucking. Mess.

I wish shyness didn't exist, I wish a trait that was so universally despised did not exist. I'm pretty much convinced that animals and people become shy to dictate their genetic inferiority to others. It's literally a sign of subservience. What's even more fucked up is that when I see another shy person, I feel absolute disgust because I'm seeing someone else like me. Genetic failure.

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Post by The Wisp on Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:41 pm

Caffeinated wrote:
Nope, still not buying that. In the Real Life parts of society I've been in, a quality man doesn't kiss and tell. So no one would be able to judge his attractiveness based on his partners. Also, all of the people on this forum (and every other place on the internet) do actually live in the physical world, and generally are reporting their view on how things are in their neck of the woods.

This. I've been to two college parties in the past month, and nobody talked about specific sexual experiences. I had no idea who was getting laid and who wasn't (save the one couple at one of them). Also, I can totally see why you, Glides, would feel like you can't respect a woman unless you don't desire sex with her, because it seems like for you, you only want sex insofar as it brings you social status among other men. That's not a very respectful way to view sexuality. But you don't have to view it that way.

ETA:

Glides wrote:I wanna live where you live. It sounds so fucking peaceful.

Maybe it's not where you live but who you choose to associate with. Or, maybe you internalized a lot of toxic ideas growing up and are wrongly projecting that onto people now.
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Post by Enail on Sat Jun 20, 2015 6:00 pm

Caffeinated wrote:
Glides wrote:Remember: in common society, not weird internet niches like this, a man is only as attractive as the people he has sex with, quantity, frequency, all that. Deny it all you want, you know I'm right.

Nope, still not buying that. In the Real Life parts of society I've been in, a quality man doesn't kiss and tell. So no one would be able to judge his attractiveness based on his partners. Also, all of the people on this forum (and every other place on the internet) do actually live in the physical world, and generally are reporting their view on how things are in their neck of the woods.

Hey, speak for yourself! Maybe I'm just really acing the Turing Test! Razz




Glides wrote:
That's a pretty fucked up view of respect.

You're telling me. I'm ashamed of that view. In my logical conscious mind, there's no problems. But the subconscious is the part that's sick and rotten and I can't kill it.

You don't have to kill it. You just need to stop believing what it says. Keep reminding yourself that it's wrong.
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Post by Bumble on Sat Jun 20, 2015 7:11 pm

Enail wrote:

You don't have to kill it. You just need to stop believing what it says. Keep reminding yourself that it's wrong.

There's some advice I've seen given to guys like Glides and me that goes like, "Just treat women like you would treat anybody else. Women are people just like you!" But the thing is we are not social butterflies. (I guess I'm speaking for myself now) I don't just talk to strangers. When I see an attractive/cool/interesting woman and I go to treat her like anybody else that just means to ignore her studiously. Any attempt I could (never) make to establish contact with her would because I saw her as a sexual object, first and foremost among any number of other non-deciding qualities. I think this is what Glides describes as "sexist," and what I see as our misguided relationship with feminism as it addresses objectification.

One way out would be to start talking to everybody you meet but I sure as hell am not going to do that, and it would be fake because your motivation would still be sexual.

I think the answer here (if my appraisal of Glides's conundrum is correct) is to acknowledge that it is, indeed, ok to see a woman you are attracted to as a sexual being, and to interact with them accordingly. I'm pretty sure almost all men do this, anyway. Now, finding appropriate situations to talk to women you don't know is a whole 'nother area where we screw ourselves over by being overly cautious.

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Post by Enail on Sat Jun 20, 2015 7:34 pm

It is absolutely okay to see a woman you're attracted to as a sexual being - which I think is a very different thing from a 'sexual object' -  but I do think there's a bit of a problem if that's the absolute only frame to your interaction, because it strikes me as rather unpleasant to start an interaction with someone if they become basically a non-entity to you if they don't want to have sex with you.  I'm not sure this applies much to Glides, since he does have/seek/value other forms of social connections.
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Post by Bumble on Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:05 pm

Enail wrote:It is absolutely okay to see a woman you're attracted to as a sexual being - which I think is a very different thing from a 'sexual object'

This is reassuring. Somehow the terms blended together in my mind.

Enail wrote:but I do think there's a bit of a problem if that's the absolute only frame to your interaction, because it strikes me as rather unpleasant to start an interaction with someone if they become basically a non-entity to you if they don't want to have sex with you.  I'm not sure this applies much to Glides, since he does have/seek/value other forms of social connections.

I see what you're saying. It's not that I am against having platonic relationships with women but that it doesn't naturally happen. I think this is because I have always been a passive recipient of friendship. All my friendships arise from natural, effortless camaraderie that occurs between dudes who work/study together. In the past I've thought about what actively pursuing friendship might look like but I never really figured it out.

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Post by Enail on Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:48 pm

Bumble wrote:
I see what you're saying. It's not that I am against having platonic relationships with women but that it doesn't naturally happen. I think this is because I have always been a passive recipient of friendship. All my friendships arise from natural, effortless camaraderie that occurs between dudes who work/study together. In the past I've thought about what actively pursuing friendship might look like but I never really figured it out.

In that case, that might be something to work on. For one, it uses a lot of the same skills as pursuing romantic/sexual relationships but is generally a little more "beginner-friendly"; and for another, a romantic/sexual approach is likely to come across better if you have a mindset of being open to other outcomes as positive (such as if you make a friend, if she introduces you to someone else you might be interested in, if you get an interesting book recommendation, or have fun flirting a bit without it leading anywhere...).
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Post by BobTheNinja on Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:42 pm

I think I have the inverse problem. Most of the time I don't think about the women I interact with in a sexual light. Granted, if they're attractive then I typically will, but the problem is that I'm afraid of approaching women with the desire to partner up because I don't know how best to go about it, and I hate the idea of causing offense or embarassing myself.

Interestingly enough, in private, I have an absolute plethora of sexual thoughts and imagined scenarios, many of them very unrealistic. The thought of fully exposing my internal sexuality to someone I know in real life is also scary.
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Post by The Wisp on Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:50 pm

BobTheNinja wrote:I think I have the inverse problem. Most of the time I don't think about the women I interact with in a sexual light. Granted, if they're attractive then I typically will, but the problem is that I'm afraid of approaching women with the desire to partner up because I don't know how best to go about it, and I hate the idea of causing offense or embarassing myself.

Interestingly enough, in private, I have an absolute plethora of sexual thoughts and imagined scenarios, many of them very unrealistic. The thought of fully exposing my internal sexuality to someone I know in real life is also scary.

I'm this way too. It's like as a coping mechanism where the part of my brain that sees women as potential sexual partners just turns off in public.
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Post by DevBless on Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:33 am

What I see here is a LOT of toxic views of the world, starting from the way you see attractive people, the way you see yourself, the way you view attractiveness...
All of these things I imagine collide into one very very frustrated person.

What I suggest, is taking those world views, throw them out the window, and practice new ones.
It takes practice, like any other skill, it means going out there and doing small talk, it means going out there and doing small talk with the people you dont feel 100% comfortable with.
Small steps

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Post by Guest on Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:38 am

The Wisp wrote:

This. I've been to two college parties in the past month, and nobody talked about specific sexual experiences. I had no idea who was getting laid and who wasn't (save the one couple at one of them). Also, I can totally see why you, Glides, would feel like you can't respect a woman unless you don't desire sex with her, because it seems like for you, you only want sex insofar as it brings you social status among other men. That's not a very respectful way to view sexuality. But you don't have to view it that way.

Maybe it's not where you live but who you choose to associate with. Or, maybe you internalized a lot of toxic ideas growing up and are wrongly projecting that onto people now.

That tends to be like 1/3 of the topics I hear talked about in casual conversation.

Other 2/3: internet memes and weed.

I kid you the fuck not.

Not that I mind the other 2/3 much, because it provides a good opportunity for casually satirical humor.

Mind you, it's not like this shit is openly talked about the way I talk about it here ("Alright boys, let's compare scorecards"). Openly talking about is bad form, like someone said. It's almost subconscious, if that makes sense. The people who tend to be the most charismatic and social are the ones who have had the most sex.

Cue "alpha male evolutionary blah blah blah" talk.

But you're right, I don't give a damn about sex for pleasure. Not to say that I wouldn't try to make it fun for the girl (and fail miserably) if I was ever in that situation. But I don't think I'd be a very good lover due to that reason alone. I just want people to look up at me and admire me for a change, and my subconscious mind has fixated on sex to be the magical thing that'll finally make people respect me. Because they sure as hell don't right now.

Enail wrote:It is absolutely okay to see a woman you're attracted to as a sexual being - which I think is a very different thing from a 'sexual object' -  but I do think there's a bit of a problem if that's the absolute only frame to your interaction, because it strikes me as rather unpleasant to start an interaction with someone if they become basically a non-entity to you if they don't want to have sex with you.  I'm not sure this applies much to Glides, since he does have/seek/value other forms of social connections.

Not exactly a non-entity, nor do I treat them badly if I'm not interested. That's like the one social thing I actually pride about myself, I internalize the rejection instead of externalizing it. I know consciously that she's got every goddamn reason to reject me, me being who I am. Subconscious mind hurts badly at this. Conscious mind strong enough to know that girl is not to blame, that if I had been a better man, this wouldn't have happened. Subconscious mind directs the bitterness and hurt feelings at myself instead of the girl. She in turn thinks pretty highly of me at that point for "not being like the rest of those dogs."

Inevitably, what will happen is that I'll be so ashamed of myself that I'll just drop away socially with the chick, and we never talk again. She's never upset about this, because like I said, I don't make lasting impressions on anyone. Win-win, sort of.

Not to mean that I didn't enjoy talking to that person or anything, but I spend any moment with them trying to figure out where exactly I went wrong and how I can avoid that. I never ever do. It's really tiring to try and listen to her talk about something and think "Goddammit, maybe if I'd done more stomach crunches and had nicer abs, she'd fuck me. Maybe if I was tan, but I can't tan naturally. Maybe if I didn't look so Eastern European. Maybe if I didn't have a receding hairline (not that noticeable, yet...). Maybe I didn't put on cologne. Did I forget to shower last time I saw her? Would she think it's hot if I could recite the digits of pi?!"

And so on.




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Post by Enail on Sun Jun 21, 2015 12:44 pm

Glides, you know what you need to know already, so there's no point in that kind of thinking.

-Obsessing about what you have to do to make women want to fuck you is getting in the way of actually connecting with them; so you need to find ways to turn off that entirely counterproductive mental monologue, or at least turn down the volume a little.

-You're putting so much pressure on yourself to be liked that it makes it hard for you to relax and show all those good things that your roommate sees, so you need to find ways to lower the stakes for yourself.

-You're so focused on sex as a status marker you're looking at women you're attracted to as examiners who will pass or fail you, which is not only not a very appealing attitude, but is also getting in the way of having fun with them, flirting and seeing if you connect, and even of knowing whether you actually would like to have sex with them as an activity in its own right. No one wants to have sex with you to give you status; some people could want to have sex with you because they think you'd both enjoy it. So give yourself some room to decide if you'd like to have sex with them because you're attracted to them and think you'd enjoy it.

I know none of these things are easy to change. But obsessing about abs and reciting pi is not doing you any good.
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Post by PintsizeBro on Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:10 pm

Glides wrote:Mind you, it's not like this shit is openly talked about the way I talk about it here ("Alright boys, let's compare scorecards"). Openly talking about is bad form, like someone said. It's almost subconscious, if that makes sense. The people who tend to be the most charismatic and social are the ones who have had the most sex.

Cue "alpha male evolutionary blah blah blah" talk.

But you're right, I don't give a damn about sex for pleasure. Not to say that I wouldn't try to make it fun for the girl (and fail miserably) if I was ever in that situation. But I don't think I'd be a very good lover due to that reason alone. I just want people to look up at me and admire me for a change, and my subconscious mind has fixated on sex to be the magical thing that'll finally make people respect me. Because they sure as hell don't right now.

So... if nobody talks about it openly, how do you know? It sounds like you're just assuming how sexually successful every guy you meet is based on your opinion of him. So you're reinforcing your own beliefs about sex and social clout, but it's just circular logic. Even if a guy gives you a number in one of these conversations, take it with a huge helping of salt. People lie! Especially insecure guys who want to look cool to other guys at a party when everyone is drunk. You think you're the only guy who's insecure and wants to look cool? You're not. Not by a long shot.

Now you're not wrong in the basic assumption that guys who are fun and attractive and likable are more likely to have opportunities for sex than guys who are boring and unattractive and mean, but that's not alpha male bullshit, that's just common sense. Those guys have more opportunities to make friends as well, because they're just more fun to be around.

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Post by Guest on Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:34 am

Enail wrote:Glides, you know what you need to know already, so there's no point in that kind of thinking.

-Obsessing about what you have to do to make women want to fuck you is getting in the way of actually connecting with them; so you need to find ways to turn off that entirely counterproductive mental monologue, or at least turn down the volume a little.

-You're putting so much pressure on yourself to be liked that it makes it hard for you to relax and show all those good things that your roommate sees, so you need to find ways to lower the stakes for yourself.

I'm gonna risk it again: how the hell do I do that?

Telling myself it's just anxiety and nerves and the jerkbrain really doesn't do anything. It will not stop until I'm either beyond mad or upset, or both. My brain has designed itself entirely to terminate my existence.

I have been at this for years. I have spent my entire life trying to beat the damn thing. Realistically it's like I'm being beaten, and all i can do is curl up in the fetal position and wait for it to end, which it never does. We've talked this over again and again and again, never moving closer to the goal, always stuck in place.

I'm going to a goddamn shrink for this and it's been two weeks and nothing has fucking happened. It takes months and months, I know. I have just enough awareness of my current mental state that I know that it's taking all of my self-control to not snap and write another one of those rants this forum loves so much. Hell, the rants are just me in sheer instinctual "fight-or-flight" mode, I'm screaming out for help into the ether, knowing that none of you can do that for me but me.

Saddest part is that if I was actually honest with Roomie, if I went up to him and told him straight up "every minor success I've had is entirely because of you," he'd get mad at me. Every one of my acquaintances was introduced to me through him (save one, who is the only other actual friend that I have). The two girls who expressed interest in me previously wanted to have sex with him before it shifted to me long enough for me to completely ruin it.

Roomie's leaving at the end of the summer. He's going to NYU. My other friend is also leaving, going to Vancouver. The second they're both gone, the acquaintances will break off all contact, and I'll be completely isolated from the world all over again, just like high school. I'm not looking forward to that. At the same time, I can't do anything to stop them from leaving, to do so would be to stifle their talent and passion for my greed and loneliness.

So what I'm thinking is that perhaps I'm only alive to witness other people's greatness, never getting any of that for myself. I have no value of any kind. If people were still being sold, I'd be sold at the equivalent of a trashy thrift shop for pennies. But we'll save the self-hate talk that is my trademark for another less logical day.

-You're so focused on sex as a status marker you're looking at women you're attracted to as examiners who will pass or fail you, which is not only not a very appealing attitude, but is also getting in the way of having fun with them, flirting and seeing if you connect, and even of knowing whether you actually would like to have sex with them as an activity in its own right. No one wants to have sex with you to give you status; some people could want to have sex with you because they think you'd both enjoy it. So give yourself some room to decide if you'd like to have sex with them because you're attracted to them and think you'd enjoy it.

I know none of these things are easy to change. But obsessing about abs and reciting pi is not doing you any good.

Considering that I've only "connected" with two people in my life, neither of them romantically, I really think it's a little presumptuous to assume that I'm capable of such a basic human function.

I'm going in circles here. I should tell the shrink that. "Hey, you know like that one thing that everyone else can do properly? I can't do that one thing. Oh, and beyond food and water and shelter, it's probably the most crucial part of being alive."

We can go all year debating whether or not sex is important, but you all gotta admit I'm right this time. Connecting with people in any emotional capacity, sexually or otherwise, is the main point of being alive. I haven't even connected with my own family, for fuck's sake.

I'm feeling a mixture of absolute horror and resignation right now. I really need to sleep more. I really need to eat more. My eyes have sunken deeper than the Titanic.

If there's any ladies out there with a zombie fetish, I'm your ghoul.

PintsizeBro wrote:

So... if nobody talks about it openly, how do you know? It sounds like you're just assuming how sexually successful every guy you meet is based on your opinion of him. So you're reinforcing your own beliefs about sex and social clout, but it's just circular logic. Even if a guy gives you a number in one of these conversations, take it with a huge helping of salt. People lie! Especially insecure guys who want to look cool to other guys at a party when everyone is drunk. You think you're the only guy who's insecure and wants to look cool? You're not. Not by a long shot.

Now you're not wrong in the basic assumption that guys who are fun and attractive and likable are more likely to have opportunities for sex than guys who are boring and unattractive and mean, but that's not alpha male bullshit, that's just common sense. Those guys have more opportunities to make friends as well, because they're just more fun to be around.

I'm absolutely not fun to be around, unless I'm drunk and/or stoned off my ass. Drugs bring out the best in me, like it does for a lot of guys. I like myself when I'm high. Jerkbrain just goes away. Consequences, schmonsequences. It's so fucking blissful to not be told how fucking hopeless and worthless I am every second, to look in the mirror and not shudder. I can't even describe it. I'd say bliss, pure fucking bliss.

Speaking of which, I haven't done either in a while.

I'm not blaming anyone for not wanting to be around me. When I'm not mean, I'm dull. I have made a grand total of two people laugh in my entire lifetime and take a gander as to which two people those are.

Hell, one of those two caught a bunch of people in my program talking trash about me. To the grand surprise of no one, I'm basically the pariah of my school. High school all over again, I swear.

I'll even jokingly poke fun at my aspirations of being a director. "Shit, do you think Christopher Nolan was so fucking shy? Do you think that David Fincher had no friends? Was Martin Scorsese a suicidal little shit like you?"

I'd cry big manly tears if I could physically create them. I think that part of my body has broken, much like everything else.

Lot to look forward to. Being old and wrinkly and senile and decrepit and a virgin. 70, 80, 90 year old virgin. Rotting away in some nursing home. That's where I'm headed.

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Post by Enail on Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:18 pm

Glides wrote:I'm gonna risk it again: how the hell do I do that?

Telling myself it's just anxiety and nerves and the jerkbrain really doesn't do anything. It will not stop until I'm either beyond mad or upset, or both. My brain has designed itself entirely to terminate my existence.

I have been at this for years. I have spent my entire life trying to beat the damn thing. Realistically it's like I'm being beaten, and all i can do is curl up in the fetal position and wait for it to end, which it never does. We've talked this over again and again and again, never moving closer to the goal, always stuck in place.

I'm going to a goddamn shrink for this and it's been two weeks and nothing has fucking happened. It takes months and months, I know. I have just enough awareness of my current mental state that I know that it's taking all of my self-control to not snap and write another one of those rants this forum loves so much. Hell, the rants are just me in sheer instinctual "fight-or-flight" mode, I'm screaming out for help into the ether, knowing that none of you can do that for me but me.

So, you've been doing this for years. Let's not forget that you've made a lot of improvements during those years (and if you're going to argue with me on that one, first ask yourself if you'd be happy to go back to the social skills you had, say, 5 or 6 years ago). I know, there are a lot of things you're still struggling with that are extremely painful and frustrating and hard, but you are improving, bit by bit. You're persisting, you're adapting your strategies, you're getting the help of a therapist; you're on the right path. You don't need us to tell you how, you're already doing it.


Roomie's leaving at the end of the summer. He's going to NYU. My other friend is also leaving, going to Vancouver. The second they're both gone, the acquaintances will break off all contact, and I'll be completely isolated from the world all over again, just like high school. I'm not looking forward to that. At the same time, I can't do anything to stop them from leaving, to do so would be to stifle their talent and passion for my greed and loneliness.

Aw, man, that really sucks. Sad  

You can't stop them from leaving, but you can make the effort to stay connected with them. Do that. And use this as a reminder that you, too, are mobile, or can be in the future. Soon you'll be someone with connections in other places. Maybe at some point you'll want to go to New York or Vancouver or somewhere else that's likely to be a better fit for you culturally.

In regards to being isolated, do you like any of the acquaintances? Not 'do they like you.' Do you like them? If so, start now trying to establish a friendship that's a little independent of your roommate's friendship. Make a point to talk to them when you're hanging out, maybe try and suggest doing things together (you can include the roommate and other people, but if you can start establishing the idea that you're an inviter and and a social entity apart from your roommate, that'll help you keep up a friendship when he's not around)


So what I'm thinking is that perhaps I'm only alive to witness other people's greatness, never getting any of that for myself. I have no value of any kind. If people were still being sold, I'd be sold at the equivalent of a trashy thrift shop for pennies. But we'll save the self-hate talk that is my trademark for another less logical day.

Greatness =/= value.


Considering that I've only "connected" with two people in my life, neither of them romantically, I really think it's a little presumptuous to assume that I'm capable of such a basic human function.

I'm going in circles here. I should tell the shrink that. "Hey, you know like that one thing that everyone else can do properly? I can't do that one thing. Oh, and beyond food and water and shelter, it's probably the most crucial part of being alive."

We can go all year debating whether or not sex is important, but you all gotta admit I'm right this time. Connecting with people in any emotional capacity, sexually or otherwise, is the main point of being alive. I haven't even connected with my own family, for fuck's sake.

Don't underestimate how hard connecting with people is. Two good connections is not bad at all, especially if you only started being able to talk with people much recently - now that you've gotten started, it'll become easier to manage again. Which is not to say easy, this is something that many, maybe even most, people struggle with at least a bit at various times in their life. It's hard, you're getting better at it, that bodes well for future connections.


I'm feeling a mixture of absolute horror and resignation right now. I really need to sleep more. I really need to eat more. My eyes have sunken deeper than the Titanic.

If there's any ladies out there with a zombie fetish, I'm your ghoul.

Laughing

Go eat something, get some rest tonight. Being starving and tired just makes stress and depression worse.
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Post by PintsizeBro on Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:20 pm

Dude, why do you think drugs are so popular? Your brain isn't special or unique - everyone else likes drugs for the same reason you do.

Crying can be useful, emotional-type tears are actually a way of getting stress hormones out of your body. Don't beat yourself up too much if you can't manage it though, it's harder for dudes to cry than women. Partially because of cultural bullshit, but also because testosterone does actually suppress tears (ask anyone who's ever taken medication that alters the balance of sex hormones in their body, they will tell you it wreaked havoc on their tear ducts).

And while I haven't met any of those directors, I know that Martin Scorsese is 5'4" and no winner in the looks department. I also know that there's a strong positive correlation between being in creative professions and mental illness.

Now seriously, eat something, drink a glass of water, and try to get some rest.

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Post by Caffeinated on Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:16 pm

Glides wrote:Connecting with people in any emotional capacity, sexually or otherwise, is the main point of being alive.


I agree with this. And I think anything you can do to be better able to connect with people will be well worth the time and effort.

Glides wrote:I'm absolutely not fun to be around, unless I'm drunk and/or stoned off my ass. Drugs bring out the best in me, like it does for a lot of guys. I like myself when I'm high. Jerkbrain just goes away. Consequences, schmonsequences. It's so fucking blissful to not be told how fucking hopeless and worthless I am every second, to look in the mirror and not shudder. I can't even describe it. I'd say bliss, pure fucking bliss.

Dude, if drugs are what it takes to shut the jerkbrain up, then fuck it, use drugs.

Glides wrote:Lot to look forward to. Being old and wrinkly and senile and decrepit and a virgin. 70, 80, 90 year old virgin. Rotting away in some nursing home. That's where I'm headed.

You're pretty optimistic, saying you'll live to 90. Might be the only area where you have shown optimism. That's kind of funny.
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Post by Guest on Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:47 pm

I'll respond to everything later, I promise. Right now I'm in no mental state to think about it.

So I got drunk (not per Caffeinated's suggestion, I didn't even read any of the responses until now), posted a vaguely depressing status on Facebook, and went to sleep.

I wake up to this:

Advice From A Sexually Experienced Man (AKA I Envy My Roommate) Roomie10

That is Roomie. I've removed his name and image, and mine, for the sake of privacy. He currently has 1500 friends on Facebook. I have 500. This means he just outed my virginity to 2000 fucking people, every single person in my social group and all the randoms you add over the years, all at once.

For the uninitiated to the internet: "forever alone" is code for "virgin."

Just like that. And the fucked up part is that he genuinely thought, in his stupid stupid mind, that this would somehow help. When I confronted him about it, not five minutes ago, that's what he said. I can catch liars, he meant it.

He deleted it, but the damage has been done. I'm not going outside again. I'm not talking to people again. I'm avoiding everyone but the fucking shrink. There's no fucking way I'm going to be around them, knowing that I'm a virgin. No fucking way. Not after all the years I've spent working on my reputation and my identity, only for it to shatter with one Facebook post.

I'm ruined. I'm so ruined, there's literally nothing I can do about it, and the faster Roomie is gone, the better. He's the last social interaction I will ever have.

Let it also be known that he's heavily exaggerating this entire time. Two girls, not several. One of them wanted to fuck me to get her ex jealous, the other was the coworker.

I have no friends aside from him and one other, just a lot of acquaintances who will now be ignoring me or mocking me to my face.

He also posted a giant rant basically calling people with social anxiety cowards. Want proof?

Advice From A Sexually Experienced Man (AKA I Envy My Roommate) Roomie11


Fuck him fuck him fuck him fuck him

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Post by Enail on Mon Jun 22, 2015 8:40 pm

Hey, Glides, I can see why this would have you feeling really upset, but I'd really suggest you try and step back and give yourself a little time to get some perspective before you burn your bridges or give up on friendship forever.

I would not have read his comments as meaning virgin; to me, it came across like he was talking to someone who has had sex but not deep, long-lasting relationships, or even to someone who had had serious relationships but was no longer in one and was feeling despair about finding a one true love schmoopy soul mate. Since he said you'd written interest off as "pity fuck," that sounds like he's explicitly referring to at least one sexual partner you've had.  So I don't think you've been outed and your reputation ruined.

That said, this is really personal to be posting in public, and I would be really angry too if it were me. But you know he meant well, and I think it would be a good idea to let yourself cool down and think it out a while rather than risk doing something you might regret in the heat of the moment.

WRT that second post, that sounds like he's trying to use a tough talking, brutally honest style - which you do give the impression you prefer. I don't think it's suggesting that you or others with social anxiety are cowards, it sounds to me like it's saying that social anxiety involves an intense focus on how you come across to others, but really people aren't paying that much attention to other people. Maybe he's just trying to get through to you by speaking this bluntly.

Or maybe he is writing it out of frustration with you  - or with other people, since you may not be the only socially anxious person in his life. If that's the case, it's rather thoughtless to put that out there when you can read it, but I think it's important for you to know that being a support person for someone dealing with something like that can be hard sometimes, but that that doesn't mean he doesn't care about you or that he doesn't consider you important to him, or that he isn't willing to be there for you. If you do land up deciding to stay friends with him, or if you make other friends who are supportive to you, try to be mindful that supporting others isn't always easy, but that doesn't mean you're not worth it.

Sorry that happened to you.
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Post by reboot on Mon Jun 22, 2015 8:50 pm

I have to second enail's read.I would not have read "virgin" but fears not having a relationship with all the hearts, flowers and butterflies. Which is not to say I would be happy about such personal information being shared, but your fears of being "outted" as a virgin are likely misplaced.
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Post by Bumble on Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:02 pm

FWIW I outed myself as a virgin a couple years ago during a drinking game gone awkward (fuck drinking games) and even though I hadn't wanted people to know that about me it wasn't bad at all. If anything people were too supportive and my main problem with it now is my buddy who thinks its a good idea to tell girls about it when he's drunk.

At the same time, it was a relief to have that shit out in the open and not worry about hiding my virginity from people. I felt like it was something I could "own" and I feel like it's not really a big deal. At this point a bunch of people I work with and probably all the people I socialize regularly with know I'm a virgin. The funny thing is a couple of people have been able to guess I was a virgin just by spending time with me. I'm just so.. nice.

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