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Is putting the need of others before your own really that bad for you? [adv]

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Post by celette482 Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:13 am

Litterature's got a point. Some people are just looking for other humans to suck up- emotional vampires they are. Everyone else would be a bit horrified at the idea of another person being so invested in their lives without any sort of reciprocity. I mean, I rather expect my husband to give my needs priority, but I do the same for him, and really what we prioritize is the partnership's needs as a unit, which sometimes mean prioritizing one of us over the other and sometimes means seeking a compromise where both of us get some needs met and others unmet, depending on the circumstances. The only scenario where one person is wholly giving to another is the parent-minor child relationship, and even then a responsible parent will make sure to keep his or her mental, physical, and emotional life healthy by cultivating adult relationships, taking care of their own needs, etc because they have to be present and healthy to the best of their abilities for the child.

Between adults who are ostensibly equals, the only time you get that close is in a marriage/committed life partnership.
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Post by Kaz Wed Jul 15, 2015 6:50 pm

litterature wrote:You know, Alex, the kind of solid people worth doing things for don't like to use others, unless they're really clueless, in which case they're eventually going to hurt you and themselves.

So, before doing something, you might ask yourself whether a kind person who cared about you would be fine with you doing what you're going to do. If after thinking it through the answer is still "no", then you might have some reasons to feel guilty, but I bet most of the time the answer is going to be "yes".

You also need to keep in mind that your "self" isn't a static object which simply came into existence: it's something that slowly gets constructed, so taking care of yourself is a learnt skill, not a natural one. By which I mean don't feel too bad if you screw up when taking care of yourself, because, as scary as it sounds, it's the same as when trying to learn how to deal with others.

This was actually something I was thinking about pointing out, but couldn't quite figure out how to word it.

The thing is that any halfway decent person will not want someone else to destroy themselves for their sake out of some misguided notion of altruism. So for instance... part of the social contract of friendship, IMO, is that friends weigh their own needs vs their friends' needs and make healthy decisions based on that. If a friend offers me help, I should be able to trust that they have assessed whether this is help that they should really give and accept it without needing to think on that further. If a friend *doesn't* do that, then *I'm* the one who has to figure out whether the help they're offering is actually help they can safely give and accept or reject it on that basis... because if I don't do that I run a huge risk of causing harm to my friend, who I love and really don't want to hurt. It's stressful, it feels like they're forcing me to do their job for them and I don't appreciate it at all.

I'm afraid this may have come off as harsh... I do think wanting to help others is an admirable trait. But taking that to extremes and ignoring your own needs does no one any favours. Also, I've recently been on the receiving end of this sort of help - the highlight being when my friend lied to me about something, leading me to accept help from her I would not have had I known the truth - which is probably why I feel quite strongly about this.

ETA: thought about this and maybe a better example is asking someone for help. In order to ask a friend for help, I need to trust that they'll say no if I'm asking too much from them. The bigger the favour I want to ask, the surer I have to be. A "selfless" friend, where I can't trust them to have boundaries? Fat chance I'm asking them for help except in very small ways. The big favours I'll only ever ask - or accept if offered - from a friend where I know they have limits to how far they'll go for me and are willing to enforce those. So extreme selflessness isn't even very effective!

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Post by nearly_takuan Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:39 am

I have some trouble with this as well. Thoughts, in the order they're going to spill out:

Each individual person you help is no more "the many" and no less "the one" than you are. Treating other people that differently from yourself implies (therefore brings into being) distance, barriers, alienation, whatever you want to call it, between yourself and those "others". People are individuals. An individual's needs are not in any objective way more or less important than another individual's. Fortunately, we have the capacity to be much more arbitrary in our decision-making. We can decide that some individuals are (for any reason, or none) more deserving of our attention than others. Or less. We can try to give everyone a starting point, preferably an equal one (though the reality on that side is far less happy-positive), but we then adjust our expectations and our own behaviors on individual bases.

If you're paying enough attention, it's not hard to figure out what people need before they ask. Part of this is that a lot of people actually kind of hate having to ask for things (admit they need help) but are very willing to drop not-at-all-subtle hints from time to time. And even without those...a lot of needs are just common enough that you can tell when someone's not getting that met. Sometimes you can help easily. Sometimes you can't. Sometimes you theoretically could, if you gave up this or that....

The thing is it's just not possible to reach everyone, or solve all the problems. Getting too fixed on the unsolvable stuff is...a fantastic way to become totally nuts.

And even the solvable problems have consequences. You may or may not recall that a while back I helped a friend out with some major financial problems. Apparently this also had a hand in her last-second change of plans when she almost attempted suicide, and I continue to be really really glad that I helped out when I did. But it's thereafter become a strain on our actual friendship, because there's no quantifiable way for her to repay the debt and no sufficiently dramatic way for her to do something she'll view as "enough". Consequences.

I think most people have a need to feel useful, valued, and accepted. Being obnoxiously helpful and considerate toward others is a shortcut to small doses of all of those, and sometimes it's the only route. But it doesn't end. It's not...permanent. You can't really feel like people like you if you have reason to believe they're only valuing what you've done for them lately...and if you're constantly being the Helper, you're only creating more of those reasons. Counterproductive in the long run.

I'm certainly not saying you shouldn't be helpful and kind to people. Just...sometimes, it may be worth considering additional variables, and running some internal diagnostics (sorry, I don't know any military idioms for this) before rushing into things too much.
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Post by nearly_takuan Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:45 am

Kaz wrote:
ETA: thought about this and maybe a better example is asking someone for help. In order to ask a friend for help, I need to trust that they'll say no if I'm asking too much from them. The bigger the favour I want to ask, the surer I have to be. A "selfless" friend, where I can't trust them to have boundaries? Fat chance I'm asking them for help except in very small ways. The big favours I'll only ever ask - or accept if offered - from a friend where I know they have limits to how far they'll go for me and are willing to enforce those. So extreme selflessness isn't even very effective!

Y'know, one of the most encouraging things I've heard lately was a friend describing me as someone who will gladly help pretty much anyone without a lot of persuading...unless I can't or don't want to, in which case I'll say no. Either I've gotten better at boundaries in general, or I've gotten better at making them visible. Probably some of each. But yeah, sort of a "have you been working out?" kind of comment, at least to my ears. Lifting weights
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Post by Guest Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:47 pm

nearly_takuan wrote:
Kaz wrote:
ETA: thought about this and maybe a better example is asking someone for help. In order to ask a friend for help, I need to trust that they'll say no if I'm asking too much from them. The bigger the favour I want to ask, the surer I have to be. A "selfless" friend, where I can't trust them to have boundaries? Fat chance I'm asking them for help except in very small ways. The big favours I'll only ever ask - or accept if offered - from a friend where I know they have limits to how far they'll go for me and are willing to enforce those. So extreme selflessness isn't even very effective!

Y'know, one of the most encouraging things I've heard lately was a friend describing me as someone who will gladly help pretty much anyone without a lot of persuading...unless I can't or don't want to, in which case I'll say no. Either I've gotten better at boundaries in general, or I've gotten better at making them visible. Probably some of each. But yeah, sort of a "have you been working out?" kind of comment, at least to my ears. Lifting weights
.....

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Post by Guest Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:48 pm

nearly_takuan wrote:I have some trouble with this as well. Thoughts, in the order they're going to spill out:

Each individual person you help is no more "the many" and no less "the one" than you are. Treating other people that differently from yourself implies (therefore brings into being) distance, barriers, alienation, whatever you want to call it, between yourself and those "others". People are individuals. An individual's needs are not in any objective way more or less important than another individual's. Fortunately, we have the capacity to be much more arbitrary in our decision-making. We can decide that some individuals are (for any reason, or none) more deserving of our attention than others. Or less. We can try to give everyone a starting point, preferably an equal one (though the reality on that side is far less happy-positive), but we then adjust our expectations and our own behaviors on individual bases.

If you're paying enough attention, it's not hard to figure out what people need before they ask. Part of this is that a lot of people actually kind of hate having to ask for things (admit they need help) but are very willing to drop not-at-all-subtle hints from time to time. And even without those...a lot of needs are just common enough that you can tell when someone's not getting that met. Sometimes you can help easily. Sometimes you can't. Sometimes you theoretically could, if you gave up this or that....

The thing is it's just not possible to reach everyone, or solve all the problems. Getting too fixed on the unsolvable stuff is...a fantastic way to become totally nuts.

And even the solvable problems have consequences. You may or may not recall that a while back I helped a friend out with some major financial problems. Apparently this also had a hand in her last-second change of plans when she almost attempted suicide, and I continue to be really really glad that I helped out when I did. But it's thereafter become a strain on our actual friendship, because there's no quantifiable way for her to repay the debt and no sufficiently dramatic way for her to do something she'll view as "enough". Consequences.

I think most people have a need to feel useful, valued, and accepted. Being obnoxiously helpful and considerate toward others is a shortcut to small doses of all of those, and sometimes it's the only route. But it doesn't end. It's not...permanent. You can't really feel like people like you if you have reason to believe they're only valuing what you've done for them lately...and if you're constantly being the Helper, you're only creating more of those reasons. Counterproductive in the long run.

I'm certainly not saying you shouldn't be helpful and kind to people. Just...sometimes, it may be worth considering additional variables, and running some internal diagnostics (sorry, I don't know any military idioms for this) before rushing into things too much.
Now they tell me...

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Post by nearly_takuan Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:34 pm

Alex1989 wrote:.....

Sorry. I did have a point, and then forgot to actually say anything about it. Wasn't supposed to stop with the boast. Razz

The idea was supposed to be that (A) it is possible to make that kind of change, (B) people do take notice when you are able to assert some boundaries, (C) your boundaries can be as fuzzy as you like, as big or small as you like, so long as you enforce them, (D) it can be rewarding to do these things. YMMV, of course.

Can you recount/describe some specific examples of when you think you might have been "too selfless"? (Another reason that form of selflessness may end up being harmful is that you can feel resentful about it and just sort of oscillate between toxic-selfless and toxic-selfish.) Maybe you'll be able to get some more concrete input on how to react to similar situations in the future, so you can learn to demonstrate boundaries and such? Though to be honest, it's probably mostly the sort of thing you have to intentionally think about at the right times and train yourself into.
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Post by Guest Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:30 pm

nearly_takuan wrote:
Alex1989 wrote:.....

Sorry. I did have a point, and then forgot to actually say anything about it. Wasn't supposed to stop with the boast. Razz

The idea was supposed to be that (A) it is possible to make that kind of change, (B) people do take notice when you are able to assert some boundaries, (C) your boundaries can be as fuzzy as you like, as big or small as you like, so long as you enforce them, (D) it can be rewarding to do these things. YMMV, of course.

Can you recount/describe some specific examples of when you think you might have been "too selfless"? (Another reason that form of selflessness may end up being harmful is that you can feel resentful about it and just sort of oscillate between toxic-selfless and toxic-selfish.) Maybe you'll be able to get some more concrete input on how to react to similar situations in the future, so you can learn to demonstrate boundaries and such? Though to be honest, it's probably mostly the sort of thing you have to intentionally think about at the right times and train yourself into.
I can't have boundaries, people don't like boundaries.

I can't recount an example of extreme selflessness, but I can tell you why I can't have boundaries: I was getting ready to go on duty, when my mother asked me to clean after the dog, I could not, I was in uniform and my was going to pick me up in 2 minutes, I told her I couldn't, we argued and in the heat of the argument she slapped me across the face, HARD, Enough to knock me off my feet. It was weapons training that day, I spent the whole day thinking whether put the barrel of an M4 carbine in my mouth and pull the trigger.

If I enforce boundaries, people will hate me... my mom did...

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Post by nearly_takuan Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:35 pm

Not everyone is like your controlling and abusive mother, Alex. I hope....
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Post by Guest Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:40 pm

nearly_takuan wrote:Not everyone is like your controlling and abusive mother, Alex. I hope....
They are... in PR, they are.

That's why if I want to have a chance of happiness with someone, I can never refuse their requests. I would rather be someones love slave than be single for the rest of my natural life, even if it is degrading.

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Post by Robjection Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:13 pm

So, as things stand, you believe that enforcing boundaries means you get hurt. Is that right?

Under what circumstances would you be willing not to believe that? Even if they're circumstances that only exist in the imagination and are literally impossible.

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Post by Guest Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:52 pm

Robjection wrote:So, as things stand, you believe that enforcing boundaries means you get hurt. Is that right?

Under what circumstances would you be willing not to believe that? Even if they're circumstances that only exist in the imagination and are literally impossible.
.....

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Post by Perlandra Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:55 pm

It depends on the circumstances, but if it's impacting your physical or mental/emotional health, you need to take care of yourself in order to be capable of being there for other people. I tend to overdo a bit when trying to help others as well, and have to rein it in at times. Balance is good!

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