[Disc] This community lately and my place in it

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[Disc] This community lately and my place in it

Post by The Wisp on Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:32 pm

I feel a little weird about posting this, but I feel like I need to do it. I say everything here earnestly, not as a cynical bid for attention or anything.

Also, this isn't a veiled way to single out one or two people, rather I'm talking to the community as a whole.

It will probably come as no surprise to people who are regulars here and on prime that this community has changed in the past month or so, or at least my relationship with it and its relationship with me have.

I have felt hurt, and even a bit betrayed, by recent events. I have been bullied and silenced here ('here' referring more to prime than the forum, though not exclusively, and besides it's basically the same community) on multiple occasions recently and nobody came to my defense (well, one person did at one point and she was driven out by the responses to that). Nobody really took my side against the people who bullied me, and in fact, a few who had been neutral towards me seemed to join in albeit not as harshly. People who I had thought would naturally side with me in such a situation seemed to conveniently disappear when these things happened over the span of about 3 weeks. It's not that I thought people would agree with the substance necessarily, but at least take my side in pushing back against hostile bullying and silencing behavior against me.

I had thought this was a relative safe space for me, and it had at least felt like one for a while. I had thought that many of the people here were on Team Wisp. But apparently I had clearly misread this community and my place in it. How could a community be on Team Wisp when half my posts were literally shouted down and the other half responded to through metaphorical clenched teeth? When I shared the most vulnerable things I have with non-therapists only to have that information subtly used in future discussions to shut me up, and again nobody came to my defense or possibly even noticed? When, recently, I was treated with less patience and received less reasoned responses than certain "problem posters"?

If the people here want this community to become about a bunch of mostly "older" and more experienced women and a few of their male sympathizers circle jerking about how awful and misogynistic and toxic young men are and shouting down the young men who actually try to engage, that's fine, but I won't be apart of it (and it seems at least one or two others have shared my feelings). Based on his twitter it looks like DNL might be shifting content in response to that anyway.

I'm not necessarily saying that's what this community is going to become, or that's what people want to be, or necessarily that I'm leaving, by the way, but I'm just not sure anymore.

I don't know what to think about this community anymore. I feel like I completely misread it, overshared, trusted it too much, and allowed myself to feel more safe than I should have. I feel like people were only nice to me because it was easy and convenient, but when a real conflict between me and others happened, nobody cared (or worse...).

This community has meant a lot to me, and I've definitely grown because of my participation in it. There are a lot of good people here. I don't hate anybody here. But I have to say that I felt really hurt by recent events and I feel like I need to air that out, or else I was definitely going to end up leaving.

If I did misinterpret my place and how people here viewed me, or the nature of this community, that's fine. You're not bad people in that case. I just made a bad judgement call. I'm not owed to have people on Team Wisp here just because I've been around awhile. But, if that's the case, I would rather just know.
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Re: [Disc] This community lately and my place in it

Post by Enail on Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:07 am

Hey, Wisp, thanks for making this post. I'm sure I'll have things to say, but it's late, and I need a little while to think about it first, so I just wanted to let you know I'm not ignoring it.

One factual thing I want to make clear first off, though, because it's relevant and I think it often is not clear: the forum is moderated totally separately from the blog. I am the only crossover, and I moderate the blog very minimally (and, to be perfectly honest, haphazardly), and usually only for extreme trolls, godwinning and the like. As far as I understand things, I have neither the mandate nor the tools (nor the time) to moderate behavior in general on the blog, and certainly not to forum standards. None of the other forum mods have any responsibility for the blog.

More to come.
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Re: [Disc] This community lately and my place in it

Post by Guest on Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:17 am

It's not weird Wisp. You're not on your own in feeling this way.

There has always been a rather cliquish nature to the prime site relative to the forum. I'm sorry you didn't realize this earlier. It might've saved you some trouble.

There will always be trouble with wanting people in the 'in-group' to take you seriously. Consider this to be a learning opportunity and move on.

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Re: [Disc] This community lately and my place in it

Post by Werel on Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:05 am

I don't read the comments on Prime very often, so I don't know what's up there, and don't want to jump ass-first into a discourse I've missed most of. But one thing jumped out at me:

The Wisp wrote:If the people here want this community to become about a bunch of mostly "older" and more experienced women and a few of their male sympathizers circle jerking about how awful and misogynistic and toxic young men are and shouting down the young men who actually try to engage, that's fine, but I won't be apart of it (and it seems at least one or two others have shared my feelings).

That sounds like a complete drag, and the last thing I'd personally want for these forums. Good-faith interactions between people who're saying things that make each other Side-eye are something I really value, and something I have been proud of the people here for. You, Wisp, are one of the people I've seen shine in those interactions, and you've sparked some of the most interesting conversations. Even if I don't agree with everything you have ever typed here, I'd consider you to be on Team Nerdlounge, if we're divvying up teams. Razz
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Re: [Disc] This community lately and my place in it

Post by lonelyoffices on Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:35 am

Hi The Wisp,

Like Enail, I'm also glad you posted this. Before proceeding I really hope that DNL, and if I read you correctly, this site to a lesser extent (meaning you feel less unsafe here), can be safe and effective places for you.  If they can't be comfortable for you, I'm not sure who they're here to serve.

I didn't respond to your other recent "carry over from DNL" thread because I had recently had a pretty heated discussion with a commenter there, and I felt like what I could have said might have seemed like a veiled continuation of that discussion, since my participation in that discussion sprang from some of the sane concerns you had expressed.  I don't think he posts here, so I wanted to avoid any appearance of somehow "last wording" him.  Well, it's been a while since that dust up, and I've had a somewhat more contentious one since, so Eff it.  Let's talk.

In your thread about peeling off aspects of a discussion, I think you sometimes do that, and it's probably not a good idea for the reasons presented in that other thread.  However, I agree that you sometimes get particularly harsh treatment.  I have no idea why this happens, but as a short time observer it seems like the community on DNL has low expectations for some commenters, those who seem more acquiesced to, and more or less pacifies them. In some instances I wonder if people have given up trying and so they don't respond or they counterintuitively stay more objective because they see it as an academic exercise when they do respond, having given up much hope of getting through to an attorney who is a bit set in his viewpoint, for one example. Some of those posters also seem to take the push back differently than you do, which is just an observation.  I suspect that a couple of commenters there enjoy or at least freely accept being on the a defensive, and I don't think you do.

I also see a subtle, and sometimes not so subtle gendered aspect to this, and I'm not alone in that assessment.  My latest little adventure was in the "Attitude" thread, and in follow up two prominent men commenters expressed the sentiment that men and women are treated differently for similar transgressions. I don't mean to make too much of that, but I see it as a factor.  

For my part, I'd rather that DNL show a little more patience with people who are venting.  It seems to me that you'd expect that on a site catering to people who are struggling with their romantic lives, but maybe that's me.  Yet, if snarky dismissiveness, which is really just a particular form of internet tough guy behavior, is that site's raison d'etre, then it ought to be applied evenly.

I don't endorse everything you said in this thread, but I think you did a commendable job of expressing yourself on a topic you feel strongly about.  Most importantly, they're your feelings.  I think those feelings have a lot of merit.  In any case, feelings, emotions, are a call to action or at least consideration of action.  You recognized your feelings and acted on them.  Good for you.  I wish you well.

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Re: [Disc] This community lately and my place in it

Post by nearly_takuan on Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:03 am

"Problem poster" appears to be a pretty sticky label Over There. Funny, because there's certain posters whose comments you simply can't take personal 'cause as far as I can tell they're basically just hostile all of the time.

I'm sorry, though, that my silence on your comments is taken as (and, I suppose, is) lack of support. By way of explanation, the issues you bring up typically don't seem to have much to do with me, so I stay out. (Besides, it's not like I'd bring much goodwill to your side; see above.) Should you decide to tough it out, though, I'll pay more attention and...be there, I guess. If not, I totally get it.
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Re: [Disc] This community lately and my place in it

Post by The Wisp on Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:47 am

Thank you all for being kind and supportive. It's also late for me, so I'll just make a few quick comments.

Enail, I understand you have little power on Prime and that DNL likes to have a fairly laissez-faire moderation style. Most of my feelings that bleed over to how I feel about this forum are due to feeling burned by the community in general, as there is a huge overlap.

Hermit, I'm glad to know somebody else feels the same ways. I always knew that prime was rougher on the edges than the forums, but I always seemed to navigate it okay in the past. Now it's practically all edges.

Werel, thanks for being supportive Smile

lonelyoffices wrote:In your thread about peeling off aspects of a discussion, I think you sometimes do that, and it's probably not a good idea for the reasons presented in that other thread.  However, I agree that you sometimes get particularly harsh treatment.  I have no idea why this happens...

The weird thing is this wasn't the case even like 6 weeks ago. I thought I had long established myself, but then that all evaporated almost instantly. Admittedly, a lot of it is certain newer posters (and I'm not just referring to the one we're all thinking of, though that poster is the worst by far), but there's a lot of complicity from more established members that has left me feeling burned.

Nearly, I can sympathize with you staying out, we are very different in the issues we talk about. As I said, I'm not really feeling ill-will towards any individual, but rather the collective (lack of) action.

But, thank you for offering to be more attentive, I really do appreciate it Smile
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Re: [Disc] This community lately and my place in it

Post by litterature on Fri Jul 17, 2015 4:59 am

I haven't read your recent posts over at DNL prime, and I don't even know who's new and who isn't nor who "the one we're all thinking of" is, but I'm under the impression that there's a handful, or rather just a couple, of people over there who aren't very good at calibrating the targets of their hostility. But this is the Internet so you've got to get used to that sort of thing - I realised that if you're going to take some of your time to write something in good faith, it's better to show it to someone who cares than posting it in the comments section of any site, so I deleted my account. Personally I'm more comfortable here although I know I'm not the most likeable member.

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Re: [Disc] This community lately and my place in it

Post by BasedBuzzed on Fri Jul 17, 2015 5:43 am

I think it's not so much edges as it is edgy. While discussions have not become more hostile in general as far as I can see, they have become more glib, with post chains consisting solely of high-fiving and who can come up with the best analogy on dudes who display problematic behaviour, which I don't really bother reading that carefully(folks are no The Toast tier). Apologies if that made me miss places where I could have pointed out the doublethink, and know that you can PM me anytime when you feel backed into a corner and you need someone else to tank in. Also, I'd suggest the Tumblr community surrounding the unitofcaring, because it's a degree up in intersectionality from the "yes, but it's not structural oppression" crowd.

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Re: [Disc] This community lately and my place in it

Post by reboot on Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:17 am

Hey Wisp,
Late to the party, but I am sorry you are feeling abandoned/stranded. I know I am one of the posters that occasionally lays into you. I try to balance between the need to address what I do feel are statements/thoughts that cannot be left unchallenged and being sensitive to where you are at on all this stuff. So if I am one of those posters you are referring to, I will try to be more mindful
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Re: [Disc] This community lately and my place in it

Post by Fraulein42 on Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:04 pm

The Wisp wrote:Thank you all for being kind and supportive. It's also late for me, so I'll just make a few quick comments.

Enail, I understand you have little power on Prime and that DNL likes to have a fairly laissez-faire moderation style. Most of my feelings that bleed over to how I feel about this forum are due to feeling burned by the community in general, as there is a huge overlap.

Hermit, I'm glad to know somebody else feels the same ways. I always knew that prime was rougher on the edges than the forums, but I always seemed to navigate it okay in the past. Now it's practically all edges.

Werel, thanks for being supportive Smile

lonelyoffices wrote:In your thread about peeling off aspects of a discussion, I think you sometimes do that, and it's probably not a good idea for the reasons presented in that other thread.  However, I agree that you sometimes get particularly harsh treatment.  I have no idea why this happens...

The weird thing is this wasn't the case even like 6 weeks ago. I thought I had long established myself, but then that all evaporated almost instantly. Admittedly, a lot of it is certain newer posters (and I'm not just referring to the one we're all thinking of, though that poster is the worst by far), but there's a lot of complicity from more established members that has left me feeling burned.

Nearly, I can sympathize with you staying out, we are very different in the issues we talk about. As I said, I'm not really feeling ill-will towards any individual, but rather the collective (lack of) action.

But, thank you for offering to be more attentive, I really do appreciate it Smile


You know, I could swear there was a rule about not venting about people on Prime.

But hey, I guess that only applies when we're protecting people who are broken birds.

Also, TheWisp: A LOT of the people you are talking about are just as inexperienced as you are , and it's why it makes them angry that you ignore everyone unless they're soothing your feathers.
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Re: [Disc] This community lately and my place in it

Post by Enail on Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:14 pm

<mod>The rule about not venting about people on Prime generally applies to the rants thread or other venting threads. If people have concerns about the community that they wish to discuss in a genuine way and are willing to hear other perspectives, that's something mods may allow.

In any case, the mods are in charge of deciding what is and isn't allowed here. If you have a concern about violations of forum guidelines, the correct thing to do is to report the post or PM a mod, not to make snarky comments about it.

Folks, I expect everyone to behave in this thread and to show respect for the feelings of fellow members, even if you wish to express disagreement. I don't want to see any snarking, rudeness or attacks here.</mod>
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Re: [Disc] This community lately and my place in it

Post by Wondering on Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:23 pm

The Wisp wrote:If the people here want this community to become about a bunch of mostly "older" and more experienced women and a few of their male sympathizers circle jerking about how awful and misogynistic and toxic young men are and shouting down the young men who actually try to engage, that's fine, but I won't be apart of it (and it seems at least one or two others have shared my feelings).

Wow, okay. I find this quite insulting, as an older woman with "experience," whatever that means in this context. So, yeah, I was originally planning to say something intended to be thoughtful in response to the post, but then I got to that part and just don't feel charitable anymore.

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Re: [Disc] This community lately and my place in it

Post by Fraulein42 on Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:25 pm

Wondering wrote:
The Wisp wrote:If the people here want this community to become about a bunch of mostly "older" and more experienced women and a few of their male sympathizers circle jerking about how awful and misogynistic and toxic young men are and shouting down the young men who actually try to engage, that's fine, but I won't be apart of it (and it seems at least one or two others have shared my feelings).

Wow, okay. I find this quite insulting, as an older woman with "experience," whatever that means in this context. So, yeah, I was originally planning to say something intended to be thoughtful in response to the post, but then I got to that part and just don't feel charitable anymore.

The entire post is incredibly insulting and rude, but I guess that doesn't matter when it comes to TheWisp and a number of others.

It only applies when it's the rude mean women who are tired of being ignored whenever they don't soothe ruffled feathers.
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Re: [Disc] This community lately and my place in it

Post by Enail on Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:33 pm

<mod> Fraulein42, did you not see the mod note I just wrote? There is an appropriate way to discuss your reaction to the original post and an inappropriate one. If you keep up the inappropriate one, you will receive a temporary suspension.<mod>
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Re: [Disc] This community lately and my place in it

Post by Enail on Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:01 pm

<mod>I'm locking this thread while mods give all this stuff a think. As always, we ask that people not start new threads on this or related topics. Thanks, all. </mod>
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Re: [Disc] This community lately and my place in it

Post by Enail on Sat Jul 18, 2015 3:45 pm

<mod> Alright, here we go. This whole thing is a pretty complicated issue, and we needed some time to think about it, so thank you, everyone, for your patience on this one.

The other mods and I have decided to re-open this thread. However, we have a number of caveats that we expect everyone to pay very close attention to:

Anyone who wishes to participate in this thread, no matter what their position, needs to behave with an unbelievable amount of amount of tact, patience and willingness to listen to other perspectives. We will be moderating this thread very closely.

In spite of all the overlap, this forum is not the same as DNL Prime. Not all the same people post on the forum as on Prime, the rules and enforcement are different, and different people engage differently with each site. We have repeatedly asked people not to use the forum as a place to call out people from the blog or to discuss blog interactions, and we ask that people not bring discussion about DNL Prime or the community there, to this forum (bringing discussions from Prime that aren't about Prime is still fine). We will be enforcing this more strictly in the future. Wisp, this is something that's come up several times with you in particular and we don't want to see any more of this.  Since my acting as a moderator on both sites causes confusion and conflict of interest, I will be stepping down as a moderator on the blog.

In this thread in particular, we ask that everyone avoid bringing into the discussion specific people who are not participating in this thread, whether named or unnamed.

"The community" is not a unified group, and discussing it as one tends to be unproductive. It is a variety of people with a variety of relationships with other posters, bound by some rules of behavior. In the future, concerns about what's being allowed in the community need to be addressed to the mods; concerns about relationships need to be addressed to the individuals with whom you have the relationships.

Thanks, everyone. </mod>


Last edited by Enail on Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: [Disc] This community lately and my place in it

Post by Enail on Sat Jul 18, 2015 3:46 pm


Speaking personally, not as a mod, I have a few thoughts. I suspect some of them might be hurtful to you, Wisp, and I apologize for that.

First off, I am sorry your experience here lately has been so bad. I have been finding the overall tone of discussion has tended more harsh than I'm comfortable with. And I regret not speaking up as an individual when I felt things were getting mean to you. So, my apologies for that. I value your presence here and would like you to feel comfortable posting.

But I also think you are underestimating just how much you are asking of people here. I'm not sure you realize how often the things you say are hurtful, or the contexts in which you bring them up are asking others to tend to your feelings over their own - sometimes asking them to tend to your feelings about their feelings over their feelings. I feel like you're asking everyone here, regardless of their specific relationship with you or the situation, to give you a lot of patience when you're frustrated, good faith when you misspeak, and care for your feelings.

And I try to do that. Over time, I've been very impressed with the ways you've listened and changed how you interact with others here, and I think you've done a great job of working to temper your reactions and be more thoughtful, and I appreciate that a lot and it makes it much easier for me to try to give you what you're asking for. And I will continue to try if you decide to stay here.

But it does still feel like you're asking more of that from me than you are offering to me - for example, your comment in your original post about a circlejerk of older women talking about how terrible young men are. To you that was a throwaway comment to serve your point about how you've been hurt; to me, that was someone I've put a lot of time into listening to, encouraging and trying to help, essentially saying that I'm self-centered, narrow-minded and irrelevant. It's not terribly uncommon for me to feel like that when talking to you. I know you're trying, and I really appreciate how much effort you put into that and how much improvement you've made, but I think if you continue to post here - and I hope you do - that you should know that you're asking things of me that I don't feel I can expect from you in return. I'm okay with that. But I hope you can understand why it's not always easy.

I am genuinely sorry you've been hurt by things here. And if you stay, I will continue to do my best to listen and try to understand your perspective and to explain mine and to be supportive, and to be on Team Wisp as much as I can without feeling like I'm compromising being on Team Forum.
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Re: [Disc] This community lately and my place in it

Post by eselle28 on Sat Jul 18, 2015 4:10 pm

I'll start off by saying that I'm sorry you're in pain and that you feel hurt and betrayed. I value you as a member of this community, and while I respect people doing what's best for them on an individual level, would rather you remain a part of it.

That being said, I agree with much of what enail said. It often seems like you want people to understand that sometimes you misspeak, and other times you react to triggers or emotional stress and have strong emotional responses to various topics. I think that, at least to a point, that's reasonable. Where it gets complicated is that everyone who participates in these conversations who I know reasonably well is also dealing with physical or mental health issues, relationship or lack-of-a-relationship problems, challenging family responsibilities, or stressful times at work or school. I suspect many people who I don't know well also struggle with at least one of these things, simply because they're so prevalent. Other people have triggers they react strongly to and bad days and times when they're low on emotional gas. They're going to have strong emotional responses as well, sometimes to things you've said, and sometimes won't choose their words perfectly either. I don't think people can read you as charitably as possible and try to give you the benefit of the doubt without doing the same to people who respond to you.

People also use the forums for different reasons. I know you tend to sometimes view the site as being divided between young - specifically young - men looking for advice on how to find relationships and older women who are there to give advice to others (implied to be the right way to use the forums) or complain about men (implied to be the wrong way to use them). I tend to see that second group as including women of various ages who are themselves looking for relationship advice, older men who have relationship issues that differ from yours, and people of various ages and genders seeking out general discussion of gender issues, which seems like something that's always been encouraged and that you participate in and sometimes enjoy participating in as well. Realistically speaking, some of these people will be Team Wisp to various degrees, and others will be focused on their own concerns or may engage you more on a discussion level than an advice-giving one. Some people who are to various degrees on Team Wisp may even get along with or sometimes agree with people who have conflict with you.

You tend to speak softly rather than harshly, but you regularly say things that are hurtful. Sometimes after you've thought about those comments, you modify them to something less hurtful. I think it's a wonderful quality that you're willing to look at how you speak and reconsider your comments. That doesn't mean they don't initially sting, though. I think it is often asking a great deal of people who are feeling stung to not only put aside their hurt at your behavior and refrain from responding to your comments, but also to read every other post directed at you and come to your defense on grounds of tone. Some people will be able to, some people will feel your initial words are more in need of reply, and others won't feel up to the task of dealing with the conflict at all. I also think that there are people who care about you and want to see you do well who don't necessarily see comments telling you that your words are hurtful as bullying or silencing.

On a personal level, I will try to look more closely at the comments directed toward you by others and respond to anything unreasonably cruel there. I can't say I'll always have the emotional gas, but I'll try. I'm also not going to say that I won't respond if I think you've said something that hurts me or others, though. I'm ultimately on Team Eselle, and am here for some combination of finding dating advice for myself and discussing gender roles. I can be on Team Wisp sometimes. Sometimes I may feel that my obligations to Team Someone Else trump, though, and other times I won't feel up for organized sports of any kind. I'm probably not up for joining Team Anti-...well, anyone. But I will look more carefully in the future and will try to see the conversation as a whole rather than just my contributions to it.
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Re: [Disc] This community lately and my place in it

Post by The Wisp on Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:03 pm

Okay, so, first of all, I will say that for this paragraph:

TheWisp wrote:If the people here want this community to become about a bunch of mostly "older" and more experienced women and a few of their male sympathizers circle jerking about how awful and misogynistic and toxic young men are and shouting down the young men who actually try to engage, that's fine, but I won't be apart of it (and it seems at least one or two others have shared my feelings). Based on his twitter it looks like DNL might be shifting content in response to that anyway.

While I do think the phenomena that motivated me to write it is a real thing, the paragraph itself was hastily written, untactful, overgeneralized (and as such, inaccurate), and mean-spirited. So I retract it.

So, next, I just want to clarify why I framed this as towards the community as a whole, while simultaneously acknowledging the mod note and agreeing to try to comply with it. I framed this in general terms because I felt it would be presumptuous to single people out either here publicly or through PM, both the people who I felt treated me badly and the people who I felt abandoned by, especially because I don't really have any established private correspondences or relationships with anybody on this board or prime.

I apologize for unfairly conflating prime and the forums, and also bringing up what is more a prime issue onto this forum. Similarly to the previous paragraph, I want to clarify why I did this, though, while agreeing to do my best to follow the mod request going forward: one, DNL prime is much more public than this forum with probably hundreds or thousands of lurkers; two, there's no good place to bring such issues up on prime; three, from an emotional perspective I view the forums and prime as being the same, or at least tightly linked, so my feelings about prime were very much affecting how I interacted (or, more accurately, slowly stopping interacting with) with this forum. These are just to explain, not rationalize. I was wrong to entangle them to the degree I did, and possibly wrong to conflate them at all.




First, thank you enail and eselle for acknowledging how I'm feeling. And:

enail wrote:I am sorry your experience here lately has been so bad. I have been finding the overall tone of discussion has tended more harsh than I'm comfortable with. And I regret not speaking up as an individual when I felt things were getting mean to you. So, my apologies for that. I value your presence here and would like you to feel comfortable posting.

...

I am genuinely sorry you've been hurt by things here. And if you stay, I will continue to do my best to listen and try to understand your perspective and to explain mine and to be supportive, and to be on Team Wisp as much as I can without feeling like I'm compromising being on Team Forum.

eselle28 wrote:I'll start off by saying that I'm sorry you're in pain and that you feel hurt and betrayed. I value you as a member of this community, and while I respect people doing what's best for them on an individual level, would rather you remain a part of it.

...

On a personal level, I will try to look more closely at the comments directed toward you by others and respond to anything unreasonably cruel there. I can't say I'll always have the emotional gas, but I'll try. I'm also not going to say that I won't respond if I think you've said something that hurts me or others, though. I'm ultimately on Team Eselle, and am here for some combination of finding dating advice for myself and discussing gender roles. I can be on Team Wisp sometimes. Sometimes I may feel that my obligations to Team Someone Else trump, though, and other times I won't feel up for organized sports of any kind. I'm probably not up for joining Team Anti-...well, anyone. But I will look more carefully in the future and will try to see the conversation as a whole rather than just my contributions to it.

I really do appreciate these comments. I also understand and respect that no individual is always going to be on Team Wisp, and that nobody is here for me, specifically.

I may or may not post more, I'm still PMing enail a bit to get some clarity on what I can and cannot discuss given the mods' parameters.
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Re: [Disc] This community lately and my place in it

Post by The Wisp on Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:23 pm

So, I don't think I'll be able to say much more that I want to say and stay within the mods' rules, so I'll just say a few brief things that are within those guidelines.

First, I want to acknowledge and apologize if my original post made people feel pressured to respond given its vagueness. That is not a fair thing to do.

Second, I want to acknowledge that I hear you, enail and eselle, when you say that ask for more than I can give. It sounds like I say things that are hurtful more often than I realize, and some of the things I've said, while I realized they were hurtful, maybe were moreso than I had realized. I'm sorry for any hurt I caused.

Finally, I want to say that I'm not sure I'll be posting around here and prime very much in the near future, at least, given what I talked about in my original post in this thread. I'll almost certainly be lurking around though.

P.S. I appreciate the kind and measured responses in this thread, I sincerely do.
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Re: [Disc] This community lately and my place in it

Post by Enail on Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:52 pm

Thanks for the thoughtful response, Wisp. I'll miss you, and hope to see you back here again soon.
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Re: [Disc] This community lately and my place in it

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 19, 2015 3:21 am

I'm going to bumble a bit, so apologies.

So, it seems that there is a distinct lack of reciprocity on the side of members who are more likely to seek advice/vent/be dickheads/whatever.

I've been aware of this to the extent that I don't feel comfortable in making threads about personal shit.

I'd like to ask: Did you guys reasonably expect better from us?

Speaking for myself, what could I possibly offer besides the rare "Thank you", which is, let's be honest, inadequate anyway? What exactly can I offer that is of equal or greater weight to match what you provide?

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Re: [Disc] This community lately and my place in it

Post by jcorozza on Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:43 am

I think there a lot of things that can be offered. I think one of the biggest things people can do when they come in with something they suspect will be contentious is to make a good faith effort to listen to people's responses and consider them seriously, rather than dismiss them. Thanks actually do help - even if someone offers advice you don't love, you can still say, "thanks for your thoughts - I'm not sure that will work for me, though", or something similar.

Another big thing is how someone contributes on the whole. If every time a particular user comes in, it's to complain/derail/make it about their particular problem, patience runs out very fast. If they do that once in a while, but other times they are offering support to others, offering advice, offering carefully considered opinions, or even just offering humor/anecdotes, I know that I have much, much more patience and empathy when that user comes in with a complaint, because I have connected positively in the past. The idea of making deposits in the bank has been brought up before, but just to drive it home: if every time I see you (general you), you ask me for money, if I see you coming around the corner, I'm going to either want to walk the other way or be cranky at you. If you mostly come to see me for a friendly conversation, and maybe lent me money once or twice in the past, and you come every now and then to ask for money, I'm going to be much more likely to give it to you, and to do so happily.
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Re: [Disc] This community lately and my place in it

Post by litterature on Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:03 am

IMO this isn't about Wisp or whiny people or whatever. <mod edit to remove comments that violate the mod instructions for this thread>

Anyway, the comments section of DNL Prime is just that, a comments section, and even though it's healthier than most and some decent stuff is posted regularly, it's still a comments section so I don't think it's worth anybody's time: it's too easy to make assumptions, or to give poorly thought out answers, or to be needlessly rude, or to be cliqueish, because that's the nature of places where you can post easily and where you don't really know where others are coming from (so you end up saying the same stuff everyone already knows about and then people know exactly where you're coming from and you get 35 million upvotes.) The most unpleasant aspect of this is that even when people are on the same side, discussions take on an antagonistic tone which I think makes things be about fitting in and belonging rather than actually discussing, so that's why I deleted my account even though my comments were usually well-received.

On the other hand, I'll say something that is more related to Wisp himself. I dislike some of the stuff he says with a passion, but on the Internet there seems to be a bit of a stigma against feeling down. It's perfectly fine to be sad and that doesn't make you a resentful fedora (unless you're in fact a resentful fedora that is), and I don't think it's ever acceptable to say "suck it up" to anyone unless they're complaining about something that's really petty and not personal at all <mod edit to remove comments that violate the mod instructions for this thread>

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Re: [Disc] This community lately and my place in it

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