Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

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Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by Fraulein42 on Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:05 pm

lonelyoffices wrote:

Unless you consider the author of this thread, The Wisp, someone for whom, frankly, many people have done a lot of emotional work. And it's happening again here.  Emotional work, who does it, and why, are good things to talk about.  Bringing them into this topic at this point seems to have sort of personalized things, an assertion supported by some subsequent comments directed at The Wisp.

This. Right here.

And we are expected to do the emotional work, even when men have lashed out at us, been rude, dismissive, and ignored our experiences. We are still expected to do it, and do it with a smile on our face,and do it in a soothing manner.

And I get it.

Men don't want to be seen this way. (hell, some women don't want to admit that it's a thing that happens) So they try to discount the lived experiences of a group (women, in this case) by using individualistic examples which don't translate to a group level. even if an individual man or women hasn't experienced it, the experience of the group is pretty clear.

It's great when some individual experiences are different , but they're outliers.


It's not necessarily a conscious or malicious thing, but it is harmful.
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Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by eselle28 on Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:17 pm

Can we try to steer this back to gender differences in being deferential and asserting boundaries, either in a general sense or in people's personal observations, and a bit further away from individual posters' way of interacting with the forums? The topic doesn't appear to have been intended to be so meta, and it doesn't seem like the two strands of discussion mesh well.
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Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by Wondering on Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:26 pm

For me -- I don't know about others -- it would be helpful to know the answer to enail's question about the thread's purpose a couple pages ago: "Is that the idea, to share personal experiences on the question? Or otherwise, where are you hoping this thread might go?"

I don't recall seeing The Wisp answer that, so I'm kind of at a loss as to what we should be talking about to keep things on the intended topic other than "my experiences differ from yours" and examples of that. Which I can definitely do, but is that the goal?

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Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by Xexyz on Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:34 pm

Wondering wrote:For me -- I don't know about others -- it would be helpful to know the answer to enail's question about the thread's purpose a couple pages ago: "Is that the idea, to share personal experiences on the question? Or otherwise, where are you hoping this thread might go?"

I don't recall seeing The Wisp answer that, so I'm kind of at a loss as to what we should be talking about to keep things on the intended topic other than "my experiences differ from yours" and examples of that. Which I can definitely do, but is that the goal?

I think since Wisp started this thread in response to the commentary on Prime, the discussion may have become a bit rudderless since that avenue of discussion was shut down. I tried to re-frame it in a more broad picture, but since no one responded or added anything to my comment I may not have been clear or my re-framing may not have been adequate.

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Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by Fraulein42 on Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:02 pm

I just straight up do not understand how someone makes the argument that "women are not socialized to be nicer and more deferential"

Women are literally socialized from day one. "Girls must be seen and not heard" vs "Boys will be boys"

"Oh he makes fun of you/pushes you on the playground? That means he likes you!"
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Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by nearly_takuan on Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:27 pm

Fraulein42 wrote:Just to point out something that's been bugging me in this thread.  

There's a problem with doing a study of "agreeability".  Not just because it's ...not really a measurable thing, but we also can't escape that it's weighted.  Agreeability for women is going to be seen differently than for men.  

Trying to contextualize them as somehow equal ignores that we weight how the sexes act completely differently.  Men are assertive and it's viewed positively, women are assertive and it's viewed as a negative etc etc.  

Since women are viewed as "more agreeable" by default and "agreeableness" a feminine trait, I would think external evaluation biased in favor of women there, i.e. a man who gives a "masculine" impression might be assumed to be not agreeable. On the other hand, self-evaluation would be biased in the other direction: since women are (like Asians as a whole) assumed to be deferential as an implicit bias even by members of that group, a woman who is actually moderately agreeable may rate herself disageeable in comparison to her perception of what "average" looks like for her identity or in comparison to social expectation.

I do not know whether Wisp intended "people" to mean "people generally" or "people I interact with IRL" or "people in the DNL community particularly". So I'll Nth the request for clarification, so I can adhere more closely to whatever that intended topic is / decide whether to continue to participate in that discussion.
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Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by The Wisp on Thu Aug 06, 2015 6:04 pm

My point was that the vast majority of men and women are socialized to be agreeable. Yes, it's not the same. But that's only relevant on the tails of the distribution, in the middle there is little difference. The bellcurves Nearly quoted illustrated the point, nicely. An average woman will still have like 40% of men be more agreeable than her. To me, this topic is gendered far more strongly than it should be based on that minor difference, and to use strong terms like "men are socialized to have boundaries and to push other's boundaries" literally erases the majority of men.
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Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by Fraulein42 on Thu Aug 06, 2015 6:25 pm

Wisp, if you're going to ignore what everyone has to say unless it agrees with you....why do you bother asking?

I'm honestly asking, because you do this pretty regularly.
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Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by Fraulein42 on Thu Aug 06, 2015 6:28 pm

and again: agreeable for a woman isn't the same as agreeable for a man


and being agreeable to the degree that a woman is agreeable is seen as being weak, among men, not agreeable


it literally changes the meaning when you switch genders

it's also just..not a measurable attribute.
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Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by nearly_takuan on Thu Aug 06, 2015 6:49 pm

Fraulein42 wrote:and again:  agreeable for a woman isn't the same as agreeable for a man

and being agreeable to the degree that a woman is agreeable is seen as being weak, among men, not agreeable

it literally changes the meaning when you switch genders

it's also just..not a measurable attribute.  

This seems self-contradictory to me, even though I think I was agreeing before. A trait like agreeableness is hard (though, I think, not impossible) to measure, yes. But then you also want to argue women are agreeable to a greater degree than men? Asserting a difference of degree is equivalent to asserting that the system is an ordinal one, i.e. measurable.

The first study reboot linked indicates that (by rough approximation of rough approximation) 40% or so of men are more agreeable, polite, etc. than the least agreeable 40% of women. Less than half on each side, so you can make claims about averages and, given no context other than sex, guess at agreeableness more reliably than a coin flip. But not like...a lot better. If you were to meet the person or hear a story about them then general-you would probably have far more reliable information than that...under the assumption that general-you didn't jump to conclusions and introduce confirmation bias. This is unfortunately not an assumption that can safely be made about general-any living human, though, so I don't think I actually have much of a point with this. Razz
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Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by Fraulein42 on Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:01 pm

The point is that EVEN if you assume this is correct, and that in general men and women start from a base compassion score; men are rewarded when they are "disagreeable" and women are penalized for it

I don't think either gender starts out as "bad", but you can't ignore that male aggression isn't viewed the same way thtat female aggression is

and it's not erasing men, it's recognizing that toxic masculinity is still rewarded in our culture
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Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by nearly_takuan on Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:54 pm

Where do you get "base compassion score" from? It wasn't an evo-psych study, it was researching adult men and women at a variety of ages and therefore included behaviors that would have been socialized into them. And the thing being measured was Big Five Agreeableness, which in this context has a precise definition and doesn't directly apply to any implicit connotations we may project on it in English vernacular.

But I think it corroborates your other point when I say I sometimes find (though mostly it's "found", past tense) that I am (was) penalized (or at least not rewarded or given the same advantages as my peers) if I refuse(d) to behave aggressively....
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Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by Wondering on Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:01 pm

The Wisp wrote:My point was that the vast majority of men and women are socialized to be agreeable. Yes, it's not the same. But that's only relevant on the tails of the distribution, in the middle there is little difference. The bellcurves Nearly quoted illustrated the point, nicely. An average woman will still have like 40% of men be more agreeable than her. To me, this topic is gendered far more strongly than it should be based on that minor difference, and to use strong terms like "men are socialized to have boundaries and to push other's boundaries" literally erases the majority of men.

I get your point.

What I'm wondering is what you want out of this thread. The question you asked as the thread title has a simple answer for me and most (all?) of the women posting here and almost every woman I know in real life and all the women I am friends with online. That answer is: Because it's true based on our multiple, varied experience.

I reject the premise of your question, and, I guess, the point you're making, even though I understand it. So, given that, what sorts of comments and discussion were you looking to get in the thread? Because we (all of us, not just you and I) can't really discuss the premise if we don't agree on it. And trying to discuss where we think the premise went wrong seems to get us off topic.

So, were you only trying to make a point and not really looking for responses?

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Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by Enail on Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:26 pm

<mod>Alright, folks, I don't think any productive discussion is going to come out of this thread at this point, so I'm locking it. </mod>
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Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

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