Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Page 3 of 5 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Go down

Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by Prajnaparamita on Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:57 pm

The Wisp wrote:
But offline, people just are never assertive or forceful in general. Everybody of both genders tries very hard to be "nice" even to their self-detriment.

Dude there's an active thread right now in which women are talking about dealing with stalkers and their personal experiences of being stalked.

Man I wish I had your powers of willful ignorance...

_________________
Foster! It saves lives! And kittens! People will just give you kittens! For free!
avatar
Prajnaparamita

Posts : 404
Reputation : 234
Join date : 2015-02-05

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by litterature on Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:47 pm

Prajnaparamita wrote:
The Wisp wrote:
But offline, people just are never assertive or forceful in general. Everybody of both genders tries very hard to be "nice" even to their self-detriment.

Dude there's an active thread right now in which women are talking about dealing with stalkers and their personal experiences of being stalked.

Man I wish I had your powers of willful ignorance...

There is usually a close relationship between this kind of "deviance" and the norm in that one enables the other, but I'm not sure the relationship between sexist crimes and everyday interactions with the average male is what is being discussed here (unless your position is that the average male is a potential stalker, of course). Not that I don't empathise with what you're saying, and I do agree that people are brought up in an environment where males are more likely to become stalkers, but...

litterature

Posts : 234
Reputation : 90
Join date : 2015-04-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by BasedBuzzed on Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:23 pm

litterature wrote:
Prajnaparamita wrote:
The Wisp wrote:
But offline, people just are never assertive or forceful in general. Everybody of both genders tries very hard to be "nice" even to their self-detriment.

Dude there's an active thread right now in which women are talking about dealing with stalkers and their personal experiences of being stalked.

Man I wish I had your powers of willful ignorance...

There is usually a close relationship between this kind of "deviance" and the norm in that one enables the other, but I'm not sure the relationship between sexist crimes and everyday interactions with the average male is what is being discussed here (unless your position is that the average male is a potential stalker, of course). Not that I don't empathise with what you're saying, and I do agree that people are brought up in an environment where males are more likely to become stalkers, but...

This is why people should petition GSC Game World to include a female protag.

In all seriousness, I wonder if grill stalkers actually operate in moar socially acceptable manners, e.g. endless social media spam and badgering friends instead of more direct action one would expect from male stalkers.

_________________
Pompeii, VIII.2 (in the basilica); 1904: "O walls, you have held up so much tedious graffiti that I am amazed that you have not already collapsed in ruin."
avatar
BasedBuzzed

Posts : 811
Reputation : 267
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by Prajnaparamita on Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:30 pm

litterature wrote:
Prajnaparamita wrote:
The Wisp wrote:
But offline, people just are never assertive or forceful in general. Everybody of both genders tries very hard to be "nice" even to their self-detriment.

Dude there's an active thread right now in which women are talking about dealing with stalkers and their personal experiences of being stalked.

Man I wish I had your powers of willful ignorance...

There is usually a close relationship between this kind of "deviance" and the norm in that one enables the other, but I'm not sure the relationship between sexist crimes and everyday interactions with the average male is what is being discussed here (unless your position is that the average male is a potential stalker, of course). Not that I don't empathise with what you're saying, and I do agree that people are brought up in an environment where males are more likely to become stalkers, but...

Sorry that was written in a very offhand manner and done quickly as I was running out the door--more pointing out that it's quite the cognitive dissonance to say that "Everybody of both genders tries very hard to be 'nice' even to their self-detriment" while we have an example right there of the type of violence primarily by men directed at women. There's evidence everywhere you look of the way that men are given permission to act out and push the boundaries of women--you have to be pretty blind not to see it.

_________________
Foster! It saves lives! And kittens! People will just give you kittens! For free!
avatar
Prajnaparamita

Posts : 404
Reputation : 234
Join date : 2015-02-05

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by The Wisp on Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:43 pm

Yeah, but my claim is that those are a small minority of men, but the median man is trying to just be "nice" and not rock the boat and not have boundaries.
avatar
The Wisp

Posts : 896
Reputation : 198
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by Enail on Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:59 pm

I'm still a little unclear what your claim is based on, though (the boundaries part, not the stalkers part, I mean. I think we're all agreed that stalkers are a small minority of men). If it's your personal experience and you don't have any other thoughts on the topic, well, all I can say is that that does not match my personal experience nor the research I'm aware of, which leaves me a little unsure what discussion we can reasonably have on the topic. Is that the idea, to share personal experiences on the question? Or otherwise, where are you hoping this thread might go?
avatar
Enail
Admin

Posts : 3785
Reputation : 2025
Join date : 2014-09-22

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by Prajnaparamita on Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:09 pm

Okay, here's more of my point: I don't want to be like "Well if you were a woman then this would be obvious to you" because you know how counterfactuals work--obviously if Tokyo was the capital of France then I'd be queen of the entire universe. But I'd like to give some examples of interactions I've had with men over the course of the past month. These are not all my interactions with men, nor all of negative interactions with men--god knows the list would just go on and on and on if I tried to list all of this. But here's just a sample (from the month of July alone):

While out biking two men start following me and the older one makes comments about how I'd be asking for it in those clothes. I ask a man if I can pet his puppy and he takes it as permission to put his hand on my inner thigh. While out walking a group of three men change their direction to approach me, stand in a way as so to block my path and shout at me demanding to know my name and where I'm going--I lie and give the same generic fake name I've given out since I was 14 because this happens so much and make an excuse about how I'm really in a rush. I hear them raucously laughing from behind me as I skitter off in fear, clearly delighting in the fact that they managed to make a young woman fear for her life. A much older man approaches me while I'm waiting for my mom outside our hotel, likewise demands to know my name and where I'm staying, and tries to get me to drink with him--as soon as my mom shows up his tone changes completely and he charmingly tells her about how his wife and kids are back at the hotel. While I'm walking to the corner store a bunch of men drive up by me and scream "HEY MAMI" on the top of their lungs.

Yeah, I know that last one doesn't sound like much in comparison, but Wisp you know what it's like to live with an anxiety disorder, right? Do you have any idea how terrifying it is to be walking alone and it's perfectly quiet and then all of a sudden someone starts screaming? Or even worse, starts screaming at you? It's enough to kick me up into a panic attack, one that won't dissipate until I get safe home and cry it out and wish that I never had to go outside again. I don't let men see that though, on the outside it looks like I barely heard them at all, because I've trained myself to not externally react, just keep my eyes down and keep walking and unless they do something really extreme (like that group of three that wouldn't let me pass) you'd have no idea how much I'm torn up inside.

Like I said, that was only a sample of the harassment I've gotten in the past month for the crimes of being female and being outside--there was more but it's more like repeats of the last story over and over again. Generally I get this every single time I go outside, whether it's for a two minute walk to the corner store or a two hour bike ride--yeah, it's worse in the summer but this isn't abnormal by any means. And this has been happening to me for years, actually it first started when I was 12. See when I was 12 I was just walking to the corner store (funny how so many of these stories just involve everyday running of errands) and a group of men drove up in a van, pulled over, screamed at me and then held up to my face the centerfold of a pornographic magazine. I wasn't close enough to see details but yeah, I knew what it was. I was twelve years old. This has been my life ever since.

And I know I'm not alone. I know that pretty much ever single woman on this forum could tell you near identical stories, ranging from when they were only little girls to just yesterday.

I don't want to derail this into a discussion of street harassment--this is just the best example I could think of for what it means to be a woman and what the majority of my interactions with men I don't know in public are. (No seriously probably 70% of the interactions I have with men I don't know in public involve them screaming stuff at me. The other 30% are cashiers and people in the service industry.) And my reaction in this, as I said before is to train myself to control the panic and fear and anxiety and discomfort and anger, so they don't get the reaction they are likely looking for. I don't scream back or cry or run away or give them a flying roundhouse kick to the nuts (like I wish I could), I stare at the ground and keep walking and pretend nothing happened, or smile politely and attempt to get myself out of the situation as soon as possible. You want to talk deferential? Now that's deferential. You want to talk about lacking boundaries? How about all those men I was so sweet and polite to as they harassed me, internally pleading for it just to end.

You want to talk about the opposite of deferential? Let me present to you all the men who engage in the spectator sport of harassing women for their own amusement or the amusement of their buddies. You want to talk about who it is who can't give two shits about the boundaries of women? Once again, I present to you all those years of men.

Do women do any of that kind of shit?

...Pretty much no.

So why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Geez I wonder.

_________________
Foster! It saves lives! And kittens! People will just give you kittens! For free!
avatar
Prajnaparamita

Posts : 404
Reputation : 234
Join date : 2015-02-05

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by jcorozza on Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:21 pm

I think we really need to define what terms you're talking about Wisp. "Deferential" isn't the same as nice, and assertive/aggressive isn't the opposite of nice. Respecting boundaries/keeping your own intact isn't the same as deferential, or nice, either. So I'm getting more and more confused about what you're actually trying to get at.
avatar
jcorozza

Posts : 459
Reputation : 189
Join date : 2015-03-08

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by Wondering on Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:31 pm

Deferential also isn't the same as push-over, which is the vibe I'm getting off what Wisp is describing as deferential.

_________________
-Nevertheless, she persisted

Wondering

Posts : 1117
Reputation : 436
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by litterature on Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:32 pm

Prajnaparamita wrote:
litterature wrote:
Prajnaparamita wrote:
The Wisp wrote:
But offline, people just are never assertive or forceful in general. Everybody of both genders tries very hard to be "nice" even to their self-detriment.

Dude there's an active thread right now in which women are talking about dealing with stalkers and their personal experiences of being stalked.

Man I wish I had your powers of willful ignorance...

There is usually a close relationship between this kind of "deviance" and the norm in that one enables the other, but I'm not sure the relationship between sexist crimes and everyday interactions with the average male is what is being discussed here (unless your position is that the average male is a potential stalker, of course). Not that I don't empathise with what you're saying, and I do agree that people are brought up in an environment where males are more likely to become stalkers, but...

Sorry that was written in a very offhand manner and done quickly as I was running out the door--more pointing out that it's quite the cognitive dissonance to say that "Everybody of both genders tries very hard to be 'nice' even to their self-detriment" while we have an example right there of the type of violence primarily by men directed at women. There's evidence everywhere you look of the way that men are given permission to act out and push the boundaries of women--you have to be pretty blind not to see it.

Yes, I mean, it would be ludicrous to pretend that gender oppression and gender violence in particular isn't a thing.
Probably this is where the distinction between structures and individuals is useful - if you walk down the street and are catcalled on the regular, that doesn't necessarily mean that a majority of males approve of that, but rather that you live in a society which provides the structures for that to happen. Now, structures aren't abstract things so they need agents which make them exist materially, and this is where the discussion of what the education of both genders should be like comes in, because it might (might - I don't really know) be true that most people are brought up to be disgusted at such things, but they certainly aren't brought up to be able to do something that makes a difference (and I guess this includes both genders).

Personally I have poor boundaries and I've been harassed by girls (I actually fled the town I used to live in when I was 17 because someone had told their boyfriend to find out who had posted something on the internet, ie me, figure my schedule out and beat me up as I was trying to catch the train), and I also used to have real trouble rejecting people (to the point where I once made out with someone I wasn't attracted to because I just didn't know how to reject her and she moved first), but it's all anecdotal evidence so basically meaningless, and the fact remains that, structurally, one gender is at disadvantage.

I'm under the impression, though, that Wisp's main intent might be to discuss whether boys are brought up to have a hard time saying no/enforcing their boundaries, since as far as I know the "women are socialised..." line comes from DNL and he always uses it when discussing soft nos. I don't have a personal opinion on the whole thing since I don't have enough experience, but I guess my personality makes me lean on the side of soft nos not being a gendered thing. That said, it also seems pretty obvious that a certain degree of machismo is generally expected of guys, and that this has a variety of really toxic effects.

litterature

Posts : 234
Reputation : 90
Join date : 2015-04-03

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by reboot on Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:57 pm

Wisp, I am asking this in a not snarky way. How much experience do you have with somewhat in-depth, personal interactions of people with either gender IRL? You mentioned that your male acquaintances are introverted, somewhat passive and retiring people. Have you ever interacted with different types of men beyond being in the same class or same school? And what about any women? Beyond your mother and therapist (both of whose roles involve some giving instructions, being assertive and occasionally (or more than occasionally in the case of mothers) boundary pushing), you have never mentioned any 1:1 acquaintance level interactions with women at all. On what are you basing your experience interacting with women and men who are not like you?
avatar
reboot
Moderator of "Other Relationships" and "Gender, Identity and Society"

Posts : 2514
Reputation : 1005
Join date : 2014-09-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by The Wisp on Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:02 pm

I will admit I don't have the largest of sample sizes, and my in-depth IRL interactions with women are extremely sparse.

As far as men, it's a little larger. My father and brother (who are/have been extremely deferential to the women they've been in relationships with, e.g. when my brother had a girlfriend he scheduled his life around her schedule), a couple of friends/acquaintances, and then various others in therapy groups I've been in. I would say there are at least 5 of those guys from those groups who seemed to have issues with boundaries, being assertive, being deferential, in general, and many specifically with women, too) (yes, skewed sample, I know).
avatar
The Wisp

Posts : 896
Reputation : 198
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by reboot on Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:22 pm

The Wisp wrote:I will admit I don't have the largest of sample sizes, and my in-depth IRL interactions with women are extremely sparse.

As far as men, it's a little larger. My father and brother (who are/have been extremely deferential to the women they've been in relationships with, e.g. when my brother had a girlfriend he scheduled his life around her schedule), a couple of friends/acquaintances, and then various others in therapy groups I've been in. I would say there are at least 5 of those guys from those groups who seemed to have issues with boundaries, being assertive, being deferential, in general, and many specifically with women, too) (yes, skewed sample, I know).

See, I think the people you have associated with and the men you choose to associate with are heavily skewing your perceptions. You seem to know no women other than your mother and therapist. And the men you choose to associate with are like you in many ways with boundaries, assertiveness, etc.. Maybe you need to do more field research (or as much as your anxiety will allow)? You should try to interact more than casually with different types of men (even if they annoy you like the loud, domineering guy in that club you tried). Do not be friends with them, necessarily, just get a feel for the full spectrum of behavior. And try to interact with women at least casually, because you are currently basing all your judgement about how women behave on your mother and some therapists. Mothers interacting with children have zero to do with how nonparents interact. And therapists are paid to be assertive and push people in uncomfortable directions.

You are looking at such a narrow subset, it is no wonder you have no idea why people say the things they do about men's and women's behavior.
avatar
reboot
Moderator of "Other Relationships" and "Gender, Identity and Society"

Posts : 2514
Reputation : 1005
Join date : 2014-09-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by nearly_takuan on Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:47 pm

Y'know, if I were to respond to a question someone asked by telling them (okay, just heavily implying, but potato-potato) that they were probably too ignorant to understand what I was talking about, I'm pretty sure almost everybody here would agree that I was being confrontational and dismissive—and any hostility thereafter would be fair play.
avatar
nearly_takuan

Posts : 1067
Reputation : 450
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by jcorozza on Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:57 pm

Erm, there's a big difference in "too ignorant" and "not experienced enough with the thing you're discussing". For instance, I have zero experience living in a non-American culture. That doesn't make me a generally ignorant person. It does, however, mean that when the topic of other cultures comes up, I'm likely to, ahem, defer to those who do have those experiences for their thoughts/opinions/observations.
avatar
jcorozza

Posts : 459
Reputation : 189
Join date : 2015-03-08

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by eselle28 on Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:02 am

Maybe we can just agree that people have a wide range of experiences when it comes to gender and being deferential, and that whatever the real median might be, there's enough variance from it that all of us might have perspectives limited by age, location, and preference for different types of people. Because unless people want to start dredging up data, we (and that includes folks on all sides of this) are basically just arguing about whose experiences are more representative.
avatar
eselle28
General Oversight Moderator

Posts : 1994
Reputation : 999
Join date : 2014-09-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by Enail on Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:05 am

NT, in this case, Wisp is questioning a commonly stated generalization because it doesn't match his experiences, which is a reasonable thing to do, but one which is pretty much impossible to discuss without considering the possibility that his experiences are non-representative. I don't really see how acknowledging that they are non-representative is confrontational or dismissive here.

ETA: And hear hear to what Eselle said (though, I did give a bit of a shot at dredging up data, admittedly a pretty poor one Razz)
avatar
Enail
Admin

Posts : 3785
Reputation : 2025
Join date : 2014-09-22

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by nearly_takuan on Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:25 am

Enail wrote:NT, in this case, Wisp is questioning a commonly stated generalization because it doesn't match his experiences, which is a reasonable thing to do, but one which is pretty much impossible to discuss without considering the possibility that his experiences are non-representative. I don't really see how acknowledging that they are non-representative is confrontational or dismissive here.

Mostly because it came with a side order main course of "you have no grasp of statistics". Hold the actual statistics.

Which was directly quoted in the reply.

And directly repeated in the sentence that replied to that reply, and thereafter included in the massive chains of quotes pooh-poohing what a terribly rude reaction that was.

And yeah, maybe that is just my perception of things. I am having a hard time seeing what you are seeing that is different from what I am seeing, too.
avatar
nearly_takuan

Posts : 1067
Reputation : 450
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by reboot on Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:34 am

Funny you should mention the statistics. I am still pulling them together but ran into a bit of a shit storm recently and had to put it to the side. If this is all about not posting links to journal articles, then I can get to that as soon as I get this current crisis settled. Most of the links/articles I have are on my desktop and I have been tablet bound lately.

Until then, enjoy:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3149680/
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0749597812000416
http://jom.sagepub.com/content/39/5/1156.short

EDIT: And I must bow out of this thread for now because I am wound a little tight at this moment. I will get the stats when the situation here getsa bit less tense.
avatar
reboot
Moderator of "Other Relationships" and "Gender, Identity and Society"

Posts : 2514
Reputation : 1005
Join date : 2014-09-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by nearly_takuan on Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:35 am

Couldn't find a way to access the others without paying, but it's cool that that first one has a much more varied sample size than most of the psych research I've seen.
Participants ranged in age from 17 to 85 (M = 27.2, SD = 14.4).

Also pretty interesting that ethnic background plays such a big role. They found that White men had a mean Compassion score of around 3.85 vs White women who scored closer to 4.2, but Asians were 3.7 vs. 3.9. When they adjusted away the "Politeness" sub-factor of the Compassion score, they found that Asian men scored the same as White men, but Asian women scored much lower than White women. They conjecture that
Asian participants in general rated themselves as less agreeable than white participants, which may indicate a reference group effect. A reference group effect would occur if participants are comparing themselves to their own culture and there is a difference in Agreeableness between cultures. For example, someone who is more agreeable than the norm for Whites may be less agreeable than the norm for Asians. Asian participants could be comparing themselves to an allocentric cultural norm, in which consideration for others is central and therefore higher Agreeableness is normative (Triandis, 2001).

Also of interest:
Gender differences in Agreeableness may be related to gender differences in self-construal. Men tend to have an independent self-construal, or a sense of self that is separate from cognitive representations of others. Women have a more interdependent self-construal, in which their sense of self includes others (Markus and Kitayama, 1991). This gender difference is associated with motivational and behavioral differences, such as women having more interconnected and affiliative social groups (Cross and Madson, 1997). Women, therefore, may be more motivated than men to maintain social and emotional bonds by enacting more agreeable traits.
This comes from discussion/speculation, but notice that the middleman they put in by way of explanation for why women score this way and men score that way could also just be a standalone genderless description of how a certain worldview may inform certain "Big Five" traits. i.e. if you are the kind of person who relies on external validation/valuation or otherwise doesn't fully trust their own self-image, you may act more Agreeable to fill that need.

Lastly, not sure if this is going to be interpreted here as a misguided effort to soothe men's fee-fees or what, but
All of the mean differences we found (and all of the differences that have been found in the past – e.g., Feingold, 1994; Costa et al., 2001) are small to moderate. This means that the distributions of traits for men and women are largely overlapping. To illustrate this fact, in Figure ​10 we present the male and female distributions from our sample for the trait which showed the largest gender difference, Agreeableness. One can see that both men and women can be found across a similar range of Agreeableness scores, such that, despite the fact that women score higher than men on average, there are many men who are more agreeable than many women, and many women who are less agreeable than many men. Given that Agreeableness showed the largest gender difference in our study, all other traits for which we reported significant gender differences would show even greater overlap in men's and women's distributions. Although the mean differences in personality between genders may be important in shaping human experience and human culture, they are probably not so large as to preclude effective communication between men and women.
avatar
nearly_takuan

Posts : 1067
Reputation : 450
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by reboot on Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:33 am

reboot wrote:Because people are talking about population level characteristics. As a group, men are socialized to be less people pleasing than women, but that does not mean that individuals within the population match the group.

This is a hard concept for people who do not have a solid background in statistics to grasp. Best example to clarify I can think of is smoking and lug cancer. As a GROUP smokers are more likely to get lung cancer. However not all smokers get lung cancer. The group statement does not apply to every individual. It is a population level characteristic.

nearly_takuan wrote:
Lastly, not sure if this is going to be interpreted here as a misguided effort to soothe men's fee-fees or what, but
All of the mean differences we found (and all of the differences that have been found in the past – e.g., Feingold, 1994; Costa et al., 2001) are small to moderate. This means that the distributions of traits for men and women are largely overlapping. To illustrate this fact, in Figure ​10 we present the male and female distributions from our sample for the trait which showed the largest gender difference, Agreeableness. One can see that both men and women can be found across a similar range of Agreeableness scores, such that, despite the fact that women score higher than men on average, there are many men who are more agreeable than many women, and many women who are less agreeable than many men. Given that Agreeableness showed the largest gender difference in our study, all other traits for which we reported significant gender differences would show even greater overlap in men's and women's distributions. Although the mean differences in personality between genders may be important in shaping human experience and human culture, they are probably not so large as to preclude effective communication between men and women.


I appreciate the sample size and diversity of their study population, and, actually, your last bit is a perfect example of what I was talking about in my original post. The mean scores between men and women differ with women scoring higher on agreeableness ON AVERAGE. Just like non smokers are less likely to get lung cancer ON AVERAGE. But since these are population statistics there is always a curve, usually the normal distribution and usually some overlap. Some men score in the women's range of agreeableness (some non-smokers get lung cancer) and some women score in the men's range (some non-smokers never get lung cancer).

This is the key part of population statistics that is hard for people to wrap their minds around. Your group may be more likely to get lung cancer, be agreeable, get osteoporosis, etc. but those group level characteristics do not tell you anything about any given individual in a group. They tell you what is more likely based on group characteristics (e.g. if you meet a white American citizen they are likely to speak English) but not anything about an individual (e.g. you could meet a naturalized Russian who does not speak English).  

If your group holds certain population level characteristics, you should not be surprised when people discussing said groups do not always bring up that people differ from the mean trait. When discussing risk of smoking, no one should be surprised that people are not always adding in "but not all smokers get X". They just say " Smoking causes lung cancer/Smokers get more lung cancer".

EDIT: NT, if you are interested, start a thread on racial differences in agreeableness, etc.. and I can share more research. I have a lot more stuff on culture+gender and culture and social interactions than I do on gender alone. It might take me a while to get the links posted because my desktop is in my living room, which is currently occupied by an employee who is hiding from a stalker, and I do not want to fire up NerdLounge in front of her since she is already suffering boss TMI Smile
avatar
reboot
Moderator of "Other Relationships" and "Gender, Identity and Society"

Posts : 2514
Reputation : 1005
Join date : 2014-09-24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by nearly_takuan on Wed Aug 05, 2015 11:33 am

So, your remark about things being hard to grasp was aimed at people who start from "women are socialized to X" when discussing a particular case study? Because I agree, using population level statistics when it's a specific person describing a specific problem with a small set of people, or using woman-ness as an automatic credential or man-ness as a predictor of empathy when there's already plenty of other background information available, shows a poor understanding of what is happening. It really came across like you were saying that about Wisp, though.
avatar
nearly_takuan

Posts : 1067
Reputation : 450
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by Enail on Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:16 pm

So, NT, is it your position that the norms on this topic are not sufficiently different by gender that it's worth considering if gender norms might be playing a role in any specific scenario?

And Wisp, is that what you were trying to get at? I was interpreting you as saying that you don't believe and/or are curious why people assume that gender norms are different on this topic, since that doesn't match your personal experience. Was I misunderstanding?
avatar
Enail
Admin

Posts : 3785
Reputation : 2025
Join date : 2014-09-22

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by nearly_takuan on Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:26 pm

It's my position that any given specific case study will contain far more information than just "this participant was a man and that one was a woman", so unless the person explaining it has utterly failed to provide any information beyond that, population-level statistics should yield to the facts of the case. I'd assess gender norms to the extent that they're biases I could reasonably expect participants to have (though, again, only in the absence of any overriding detail).

Over Here, I often try to describe the people I interact with in gender-neutral pronouns, for the purpose of obscuring their identity somewhat. (Sometimes I forget, other times I consider the pronoun important.) It's funny how often everyone starts using a gendered pronoun on that person, and it's also kind of funny how often it's incorrect. People assume a person acting rude and disrespectful of boundaries is a man.
avatar
nearly_takuan

Posts : 1067
Reputation : 450
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by Wondering on Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:57 pm

nearly_takuan wrote:So, your remark about things being hard to grasp was aimed at people who start from "women are socialized to X" when discussing a particular case study? Because I agree, using population level statistics when it's a specific person describing a specific problem with a small set of people, or using woman-ness as an automatic credential or man-ness as a predictor of empathy when there's already plenty of other background information available, shows a poor understanding of what is happening. It really came across like you were saying that about Wisp, though.

As a counterpoint, it did not come across that way to me. Which is why Wisp's response seemed so over-the-top and hostile. To me.

Wondering

Posts : 1117
Reputation : 436
Join date : 2014-10-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Why do people act like men aren't socialized to be as deferential and lacking of boundaries as women?

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 3 of 5 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum