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Post by BasedBuzzed on Sun Aug 09, 2015 8:27 am

For your reading pleasure: https://archive.is/vCQTM

tl;dr: Article is probably heavily biased towards sexhavers(obligatory normies REEEEEE) and it doesn't really go anywhere, but I find it interesting how much of the nasty shit in it is dependent on failures of communication. Especially the passage about needing to get drunk to have a conversation because they're so utterly nervous about the fact that the encounter is for sex, and flipping out over ED/not instructing a person on how to make you orgasm.

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Post by V on Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:59 am

Well that was a long read.

Tinder seems to have replaced off-line meeting of potential romantic partners.  Campus full of young single (because apparently everyone is single)? - don't worry about that, get swiping.  A bar full of single attractive ( because all the people   in the article seemed to be attractive - or perhaps that's just me assuming things) people? - why approach anyone when you can just swipe.

Now Tinder has more options I guess than a bar but surely not a whole campus in terms of proximity.

This does seem about the beautiful people.  I'm sure not everyone is getting this much action.

The interviews seemed to be done in groups so the answers seem to be what's expected.  The guys are high fiving each other and the women lamenting the lack of connection ( yet seem to keep on doing it).

The women complain about guys not being able to get it up but funnily enough none of the guys mentioned this.

The next morning brush off is not particularly endearing.

There's no mention of safety.  The guy you are just meeting could be an axe murderer or an independent organ broker.  The woman too I guess.  Most people aren't like that but Schrodinger's organ broker and all that.

I must be an old fuddy duddy or just green with envy because I don't really get it (pun belatedly recognized).

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Post by Guest on Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:09 am

V wrote:I don't really get it (pun belatedly recognized).

Smooth. Real smooth Razz

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Post by V on Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:22 am

Thanks Hermit!

And speaking of belatedly, in the thread I started about usernames I had a very nice chuckle at your Kermit the Frog/Hermit the Toad etymology.

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Post by Nerdator on Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:58 pm

Suspicious at 'It’s a balmy night in Manhattan’s financial district, and at a sports bar called Stout, everyone is Tindering. The tables are filled with young women and men who’ve been chasing money and deals on Wall Street all day'

Closed the article at 'They are Dan, Alex, and Marty, budding investment bankers at the same financial firm, which recruited Alex and Marty straight from an Ivy League campus. '

Romance swiped down? Don't like what you see? Well, la-dee-fucking-da.
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Post by The Wisp on Sun Aug 09, 2015 2:01 pm

I really don't think Tinder has replaced traditional dating at all among young people. Most people just are half-heartedly on Tinder and never really use it for dates.
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Post by V on Sun Aug 09, 2015 2:27 pm

Wisp that's the impression I get recently talking to people who do use it.

I think this article focused on a certain group who do consummate regularly via Tinder.

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Post by reboot on Sun Aug 09, 2015 7:50 pm

Where are my pearls? I need to clutch them. This is from the NYT magazine or Vanity Fair (I read it when it was published but damned if I remember where and the link BasedBuzzed posted does not attribute source), I do believe, and is basically intended to make older people feel superior to younger people, because younger people are doing sex wrong. About every 10 years something similar comes out and probably has since people started writing, always bemoaning the "meaningless" sex the youngsters are having and how it is so much emptier than that had in the reader's generation.

In my day it was focused on people not being in official couples and hanging out in mixed gender groups, basically friends with benefits before the term became common.
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Post by Caffeinated on Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:40 pm

The article paints a grim picture indeed. Reading it, I definitely found myself getting riled up as it pushed some very obvious buttons (kids these days! it's the end of the world!). But then again, the particular social groups they interview (fraternity/sorority, Wall Street types at a sports bar) have never been the type of people I fit in with. I also got a strong feeling that if someone wasn't young, very good-looking, white, and upper middle class, they might as well not exist as far as this article is concerned.

I do think, though, that people aren't ready for what smart phones are doing to us. Not just in terms of dating, but in terms of everything.
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Post by kath on Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:11 am

Interestingly, I didn't go "kids these days" but I definitely went "I am staring into the abyss and it is staring back." Caffeinated, more like your "those are sort of people I can't imagine fitting in with".

Actually it sort of reads like the beginning of American Psycho or Wolf of Wall Street (er, that's hyperbole, but you know - those films evoke that, even if I'm sure all of [the people who work on] wall street is [are] not actually like that). Which are probably, as reboot mentioned, the buttons it's trying to push.
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Post by The Wisp on Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:01 am

So, I read the whole article, and I can pretty safely say that it is bullshit.

First of all, it is based entirely anecdotes and vague feelings from people about how dating works, which should immediately make on suspicious. Furthermore, I suspect that, as others said, the writer was trying to trigger pearl-clutching and so I don't trust that the quotes weren't completely cherry-picked.

Two can play at that game. My anecdotal experience with online dating, and one that is shared by a lot of people in communities I'm in online and the few people I know well in real life, is that online dating is either something half-assed and casually used (with little real-world results) or else it is a blackhole of silent rejection. I find the claims that Tinder and OLD in general have made dating and sex "easy" and abundant to be laughable. In some ways, finding success through these methods is more difficult for many. The vast majority of sex and relationships in my generation still seem to happen at in-person parties or through real life friend connections, it seems to me. I've only met one person in real life or online who fit the "OLD fuckboy" described in the article. And it's interesting that they frame it as the men having all the power to decide if relationships are serious or not because we just have so many options, don't ya know? It seems to me that men who succeed in OLD bend over backwards to pretend they are looking for something serious, or at worst use a bunch of code words to signal that to have even a chance at success. Also, the idea that dating is dead is also laughable. People may not go on a dinner and a date and bring flowers, but lots and lots of people have BFs/GFs in my cohort.

So they don't use any data, and dismiss one study out of hand. But there are others that indicate young people aren't actually hooking up more:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24750070
http://sexlivesofcollegestudents.com/fact-sheet/quick-facts-on-findings/

Also, I side-eye the gender-essentialism in the article, which made me suspcious. Oh, and the bullshit claim that young men having ED is somehow "new". Bullshit. Baby boomer men probably had ED problems too, it just wasn't talked about (this ties into the gender essentialism of the article, which assumes men are always hard and horny at a moment's notice). Of course guys who have probably been drinking lots of alcohol and are possibly anxious will have ED sometimes. That is normal.

So, ultimately, this is anecdotes from a handful of outliers to induce pearl clutching.
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Post by reboot on Mon Aug 10, 2015 9:41 am

In my experience with people 25+, the ones that are successful dating IRL are also successful on Tinder/OLD. The younger end of the spectrum tend to be lackadaisical users of OLD, Tinder and IRL to meet people. But my subset is skewed, and is more ambivert-extrovert as my work, volunteer work, community activism, etc attract few introverts and no one with social anxiety. But, like the article and your antecdata, my information and impressions are still antecdata.

And Wisp, I am with you on the gender essentialism in the article. It was tooth grindingly annoying. And they most definitely cherry picked both quotes and interview subjects. Young wall Streeters, sorority sisters, people in a sports bar in New York do not all Millennials represent.

I really need to get some pearls, because I am at the age where articles like this expect me to clutch them.
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Post by rj3 on Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:07 pm

I read the article and I used to be sort of adjacent to this culture. Some points, in no particular order:

1) There are only a few places in the country where you can have a seemingly endless list of people from which to choose on Tinder. Drive an hour out of any city and you could have as few as a couple dozen choices, including escorts and scammers. This is super-narrow demographically.

2) As anyone who was once 13 years old and is no longer that age can tell you, people lie about sex. Men are vastly, vastly overestimating the number of women they sleep with.

3) In a similar vein, the women are putting on a facade to avoid slut-shaming. If this world of NSA Tinder sex were really so reliably unpleasurable and degrading, they would be at home with vibrators or on eHarmony. Tinder is not compulsory. Men exaggerate, women minimize.

4) Actual investment bankers and white-shoe lawyers work incredibly long hours. The only way to have sex with 100 different women in a year of working at one of those places is to bend space and time. They have big blow-out nights out with the bottle service and the coke and all that precisely because they can't do it every night.

5) This reads like a lot like previous moral panics - think pharm parties, rainbow parties, LSD in Halloween candy - but with a thin sheen of feminist concern trolling. Instead of freaking out parents, this article is supposed to scare/titillate readers within the age group it's covering.

6) In an article about people who use Tinder, how can you avoid being "biased towards sexhavers"?

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Post by eselle28 on Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:16 pm

rj3 wrote:4) Actual investment bankers and white-shoe lawyers work incredibly long hours. The only way to have sex with 100 different women in a year of working at one of those places is to bend space and time. They have big blow-out nights out with the bottle service and the coke and all that precisely because they can't do it every night.

Having had some actual experience with this crowd, those crazy evenings out don't necessarily result in sex for many or even most of the single attendees, either. As with any other workplace, there are investment bankers and lawyers who are gorgeous and who have great social skills, ones who are unattractive and socially inept, and people at all ranges in between. Success with the opposite or the same sex varies accordingly. And while having that sort of young professional person income might attract a few more OkCupid dates or allow you to get bottle service at a club and have women crowd around to get free drinks, neither is a very strong guarantee you'll end up with anything more than a cup of coffee or some overpriced vodka.

rj3 wrote:5) This reads like a lot like previous moral panics - think pharm parties, rainbow parties, LSD in Halloween candy - but with a thin sheen of feminist concern trolling. Instead of freaking out parents, this article is supposed to scare/titillate readers within the age group it's covering.

Yeah, this does strike me as being targeted more toward creating feelbads in a same-age reading audience than it does stirring up panic among concerned elders. It's meant to make single women despair of finding partners, single men who can't find a sex partner on demand feel like failures, and people in couples feel either dissatisfied or threatened. It's closely related to the parent scarepiece, though, and I think they both tend to wildly exaggerate both average sexual behavior and the extent to which that behavior has changed from that of people 5 or 10 years ago. Beyond that, these are my takeaways:

- People like to brag.
- People like to complain.
- Neither is gender specific. I note that toward the end of the article, once it's established its thesis, some comments from men complaining and women bragging are featured. I suspect we'd see even more of that if men who tried and then gave up on Tinder had been interviewed.
- Some people in the dating pool aren't very self aware about which kinds of relationships make them happy and which ones don't.
- Very young people are sometimes very callow and thoughtless when talking about the people they date - and that goes as much for the women criticizing men whose bodies don't work the way they'd like them to as men speaking cruelly about their dates.

My main feeling after reading this is to be glad I'm not in college anymore. Note the "anymore" because I really don't think my peers behaved that differently.
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Post by rj3 on Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:54 pm

eselle28 wrote:
My main feeling after reading this is to be glad I'm not in college anymore. Note the "anymore" because I really don't think my peers behaved that differently.

The "everyone in college is f***ing like maniacs even though it makes everyone involved feel terrible" sex-panic article is a classic within the genre.

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Post by Xexyz on Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:15 am

Nerdator wrote:Suspicious at 'It’s a balmy night in Manhattan’s financial district, and at a sports bar called Stout, everyone is Tindering. The tables are filled with young women and men who’ve been chasing money and deals on Wall Street all day'

Closed the article at 'They are Dan, Alex, and Marty, budding investment bankers at the same financial firm, which recruited Alex and Marty straight from an Ivy League campus. '

Romance swiped down? Don't like what you see? Well, la-dee-fucking-da.

I didn't read the article (pretty sure that site's blocked from my work), but oh my fucking god if that's how it opens the article can DIAF and the author should do the world a favor and never write again.  I am so beyond fucking sick of articles like these which take the dating/sex/romantic scene of young middle-to-upper-class New Yorkers and act as if that reality is universal for everyone.  What a fucking joke.

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Post by eselle28 on Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:50 am

Xexyz wrote:
I didn't read the article (pretty sure that site's blocked from my work), but oh my fucking god if that's how it opens the article can DIAF and the author should do the world a favor and never write again.  I am so beyond fucking sick of articles like these which take the dating/sex/romantic scene of young middle-to-upper-class New Yorkers and act as if that reality is universal for everyone.  What a fucking joke.

Here's the first paragraph in full:

It’s a balmy night in Manhattan’s financial district, and at a sports bar called Stout, everyone is Tindering. The tables are filled with young women and men who’ve been chasing money and deals on Wall Street all day, and now they’re out looking for hookups. Everyone is drinking, peering into their screens and swiping on the faces of strangers they may have sex with later that evening. Or not. “Ew, this guy has Dad bod,” a young woman says of a potential match, swiping left. Her friends smirk, not looking up.

I fully endorse your evaluation of the worth of this sort of journalism. If it only takes a glance at the article to realize that the sources being interviewed are a handful of the writer's friends (if it's a piece about people who are 30+) or their children's friends (if it's a piece about teens or Millenials), it's probably only worth bothering with for hate reading purposes. Round out the dating articles with some articles on urban parenting and a trend piece about a trend that's followed by exactly three people, and you've got a day's worth of fluff reading covered. For whatever reason, New York tends to be particularly bad when it comes to this sort of thing.
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Post by Xexyz on Wed Aug 12, 2015 1:14 pm

eselle28 wrote:I fully endorse your evaluation of the worth of this sort of journalism. If it only takes a glance at the article to realize that the sources being interviewed are a handful of the writer's friends (if it's a piece about people who are 30+) or their children's friends (if it's a piece about teens or Millenials), it's probably only worth bothering with for hate reading purposes. Round out the dating articles with some articles on urban parenting and a trend piece about a trend that's followed by exactly three people, and you've got a day's worth of fluff reading covered. For whatever reason, New York tends to be particularly bad when it comes to this sort of thing.

I've read bits and snippets about the state of journalism today and it's painting a troubling picture. Based on what I've read, the rise of unpaid internships - especially at nationally published/broadcast media companies - has reduced the next generation of journalists to individuals from upper-class backgrounds who have enough class privilege to actually survive working an unpaid internship long enough to break into the profession. I believe another contributing factor seems to be the near stone-clad requirement of prospective journalists to have degrees from highly-rated (read: very expensive) private liberal-arts colleges and the pool gets only smaller. Unless the industry changes this development the big media companies are going to become culturally irrelevant.

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Post by The Wisp on Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:31 pm

Xexyz wrote:I've read bits and snippets about the state of journalism today and it's painting a troubling picture.  Based on what I've read, the rise of unpaid internships - especially at nationally published/broadcast media companies - has reduced the next generation of journalists to individuals from upper-class backgrounds who have enough class privilege to actually survive working an unpaid internship long enough to break into the profession.  I believe another contributing factor seems to be the near stone-clad requirement of prospective journalists to have degrees from highly-rated (read: very expensive) private liberal-arts colleges and the pool gets only smaller.  Unless the industry changes this development the big media companies are going to become culturally irrelevant.  

Or become famous as a independent blogger who is then hired by a big name company, which is also a lot easier if you're well-educated and privileged.

eselle28 wrote:I fully endorse your evaluation of the worth of this sort of journalism. If it only takes a glance at the article to realize that the sources being interviewed are a handful of the writer's friends (if it's a piece about people who are 30+) or their children's friends (if it's a piece about teens or Millenials), it's probably only worth bothering with for hate reading purposes.

A similar genre that is also worthless that I see a lot in Bos-Was journalism is this: a piece of fiction that has dating and sex among young people as one of its major themes is obsessively analyzed by these journalists for the Profound Truths it reveals about how sucky modern dating and sex is for young people. They never once seem to have awareness that these are works of fiction, not sociological surveys. Remember when HBO's Girls had both conservatives and liberals talking about how this shows how horrible dating and sex are for young (obscenely privileged) women, for different reasons, of course, that just so happen to reinforce the journalist's own perspective? This has also happened with a few novels though I don't remember their names at the moment.
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Post by eselle28 on Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:17 pm

The Wisp wrote:
A similar genre that is also worthless that I see a lot in Bos-Was journalism is this: a piece of fiction that has dating and sex among young people as one of its major themes is obsessively analyzed by these journalists for the Profound Truths it reveals about how sucky modern dating and sex is for young people. They never once seem to have awareness that these are works of fiction, not sociological surveys. Remember when HBO's Girls had both conservatives and liberals talking about how this shows how horrible dating and sex are for young (obscenely privileged) women, for different reasons, of course, that just so happen to reinforce the journalist's own perspective? This has also happened with a few novels though I don't remember their names at the moment.

Ugh. Yeah. I'm glad that's finally died down. 50 Shades of Grey and Twilight got the same treatment. When I was a teenager, Reality Bites and Singles got the same over-analysis, though I don't think journalism had gotten nearly as pop culture oriented then as it has now.

I do think there's room for really great writing about fiction, how it reflects the world around us, and why people are drawn to certain kinds of work during certain eras. There's also room for thoughtfulness about the way that dating and parenting have changed. Unfortunately, very few of the people writing about pop culture today have quite that level of insight and brilliance, especially since the incentive is toward writing about things when they're new and buzzy rather than waiting a few years to figure out what's worth talking about in the first place and what it meant.
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Post by fakely mctest on Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:45 pm

So, I think this is a case where the reporter is being facile and Tinder is embarrassing itself. "Tinder makes us less afraid of being alone," according to its founder. Tinder is helping people find love in North Korea? Yeah okay.

There's also the fact that one of the experts quoted in the VF piece is basically saying the reporter ignored what he said:

She said, ‘Well, I’ve gone around the country talking to college students and adults and all I’m hearing is about the hooking up and so on. I don’t believe what you’ve found,’” said Twenge. “I said, ‘Well, there’s a really big difference between going around and talking to people and a nationally representative survey,’ and I must have repeated that five or six times, and it was clear she was not really hearing me.’

Situations like this are what the phrase, "Tempest in a teapot," was invented for, I reckon.

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