NerdLove Book Club

[reboundstudent]

So I heard talk that other people would be interested in a Nerdlove-themed Book Club! Originally we were talking about doing Arden's book, "The New Rules of Seduction", but I have a lot of other titles as well.

-Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus (classic)
-Why You're Not Married Yet
-It's Not Him, It's You
-It's Your Move by Nick Savoy
-Why Mr. Right Can't Find You
-The Art of Seduction
-Why Men Prefer Bitches
-Love Sense: the Revolutionary New Science of Romantic Relationships

I own all of these, so if anybody can't get their hands on a copy of one we're reading, I can mail my copy to them.

What do you guys think?

[eselle28]

I'd do one of those. I've read Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus (in a truly horrible college class) and own Arden's book but haven't gotten around to reading it. As for others, I'd note that the former is probably easy to find at (ahem) libraries because it's so well-known, and that the latter may be interesting to the audience because the author sometimes writes on the prime site.

Is The Art of Seduction a PUA guide for guys, or something else?

[nearly_takuan]

Sounds educational, for certain values of. I've certainly checked out / purchased weirder books for worse reasons. The librarian and I find each other inscrutable anyway.

[reboundstudent]

Is The Art of Seduction a PUA guide for guys, or something else?

It's more gender-neutral. It's also more... philosophical?, then practical. The overall idea as I interpreted it is that we each have a "seduction" persona, as well as a "seduction-target" persona. The key to seduction is to figure out what sort of type of seduction-target persona the other person has (aka, what are they missing/desperately want), and use your seduction persona to give it to them. I find it unbelievably squicky, but I have a few friends that swear by it.

[reboot]

I have not read any of them but do have "Love Sense: the Revolutionary New Science of Romantic Relationships". I can probably get the others from the library

[Guest]

I am definitely interested in participating, but I don't have a strong pull toward any of those titles in particular.

I think squicky books are not necessarily an issue, as long as we can talk about what squicks us openly....

[reboot]

Oh and I recently read "Why Men Prefer Bitches" because it was making the rounds in my office amongst the single people. Major squick, but some effective manipulation techniques that I tested on my roommate, which made them squickier.

[reboundstudent]

Oo I'll add both of those to the list Reboot!

My vote is for Arden's book, since her column is the one that set off this idea! The only downside is her book might be harder to find in libraries, but it's fairly inexpensive on Amazon. Thoughts?

[reboot]

If it is relatively cheap on Amazon I will get it. I have to admit I am entering this with a bias against her because I do not like her advice from DNL and am not thrilled with the idea of funding her endeavors. However I bet there are used copies by now

EDIT: I just signed up for the 30 day free trial for kindle unlimited and can read it for free

[Guest]

Reboot, you stole my suggestion! Kindle Unlimited has a free trial period, and the book is free there.

[reboundstudent]

So what does everyone think of making Arden's book the Dr. Nerdlove Book for November?

[reboot]

Works for me. I will admit I started it today and am already aggravated

[eselle28]

Works for me too. I may not have time to read much of it before the weekend, though!

[reboot]

So I have never been in a book club and was wondering how we start this discussion? I read the book and have buckets to say on it, but I assume we want something more structured?

[reboundstudent]

Never been in one myself either! Perhaps we should do it in chunks? So maybe?...

First week of November: discuss the 1st 1/3rd of the book
Second week: discuss the 2nd 1/3rd
Third week: discuss the last 3rd
Fourth week: closing comments, ideas about which book to read next

What do you guys think?

[nearly_takuan]

Sure. Focusing on chapters Intro-9 for this week, then?

[reboot]

Sounds like a plan. So discuss next Monday?

[eselle28]

Sounds good to me! I'll admit I didn't get very far in the book so far because I've been a bit preoccupied, but deadlines are good motivators for me.

[Guest]

Oh my gosh, this book is killing me. Marty, I am (in advance) cosigning everything you said. I don't actually know if I'm going to be able to finish it, because it's making me feel literally ill.

[Guest]

So... here we are, and it's Monday. Ready to start this thing rolling!

I'd like to start by noting that this book was (as I mentioned above) incredibly hard for me to read. It really felt like it was saying, through the entire book, "In order to get men, you just need to be me, tweaked to meet your desires."

And the idea of "be me" isn't just in the actions you take: she's really pushing the idea of totally reinventing yourself: your body, your personal style, your habits, your voice -- everything. Her assertion (if I understand correctly) is that you aren't pretending to be something you're not: you are consciously transforming yourself into what you want to be. I disagree with that pretty strongly, because I think with most of what she's saying, I could practice for a lifetime and never achieve.

I also feel like an awful lot of her advice presupposes a lot of money to spend on things: I really can't afford to own only underwear I'd be comfortable having sex in, my wardrobe comes primarily from Kmart, and is therefore not always perfectly flattering, themed to my "persona," and touchable. I am not in a place where I have time or money for regular spa treatments to keep my skin soft.

I also feel strongly that her premise is fundamentally flawed. She is talking about the lessons of being a pro domme and applying them to seduction overall. But the point of being a pro domme isn't to find someone who makes you happy and contented. It's to attract as many people as possible to an image of you so they will give you money. I 100% believe that her advice will work for that. I think she's fortunate that the image that works for her is one she feels comfortable in.

Basically, this advice all feels like the jerks who love running and insist that because they love it, everyone will. "You just haven't gotten past the initial hard time," they urge me. "If you keep running every day, eventually you'll get to your runner's high, and you'll LOVE it. And then running will be joy instead of misery." She's saying, "Put on a show every minute of every day, and eventually, the show will become real, and you can get a high-status man who likes you now that you're a sex kitten."

There's some good stuff in there, too: I do like her rejection of the "pretend you didn't try" idea, and the parts about engaging all of the senses. But her overall presentation is so off-putting that while preparing for a date last week after reading the book, part of me was resisting the idea of my normal bath-gel and deep shampoo because I didn't want to feel like I was following any of her advice. :-/

[reboot]

In addition to what Eliza said, especially on the $$ part, felt that she attempted to twist advice for getting one night stands/short flings into trying to get long term relationships since more women will buy that book than if it was exclusively pick up advice. I am going to hazard a guess she has not been in a LTR or cohabiting because there is no freaking way you can live a persona 24/7 through good times and bad. And if the person you are with thinks you are your persona, what happens when it finally slips when you have the flu, say?

For one night stands and short flings it is not bad advice, but rather expensive and high effort, IMHO.

[readertorider]

I pretty much agree with ElizaJane about everything here. It seems like the advice is applicable for a certain type of person in certain situations, and presupposes a certain amount of free time, disposable income, and willingness to reinvent yourself in an image similar to hers.

Overall, the first few chapters definitely gave me the impression of min-maxing which helps make RPG fun, but real life, while wonderful in many ways, doesn't give me a "replay" option and I'm not convinced I want to seduce anyone anyway. I think if I did work hard at following her advice I might be able to achieve something close to what she promises, but I don't want to do that work and don't want her end goal.

Some other thoughts:
--"create yourself to best attract those around you" seems like an unusual life goal. Have fun? Make the world better? Have no regrets? Do what you love? See everything you can see? Be a productive member of society? But life goals are whatever you want them to be
--there's a weird logic in the "you are transforming yourself for you" because "you want to be more attractive to others" on the one hand it kinda makes sense, but it still cycles back to needing external validation
--Yes, yes, you made yourself into a princess/courtesan, I understand
--assuming her strategy works and you attract everyone in the vicinity, what do you do with unwelcome attention? Are you working off an assumption that your admirers will police themselves? Do you have a magical ability to turn down friends so that they are still friends, and keep strangers out of smelling distance? Does my self-training include marshal arts?
--I really don't like how she uses "tart" and the case study of the other unsuccessful dominatrix. It was unnecessary.
--what do I do about  hobbies that don't fit my brand? Knitting kayaker seems like a slightly unsteady platform to build a brand around...
--"give more than you get" seems like a bad thing to tell people that are already reinventing themselves to attract other people
--I don't want to work to maintain mystery in a long term romantic relationship
--There's no way I want to have the "reputation of a goddess in human form"

This first section was really easy to read though!

In addition to what Eliza said, especially on the $$ part, felt that she attempted to twist advice for getting one night stands/short flings into trying to get long term relationships since more women will buy that book than if it was exclusively pick up advice. I am going to hazard a guess she has not been in a LTR or cohabiting because there is no freaking way you can live a persona 24/7 through good times and bad. And if the person you are with thinks you are your persona, what happens when it finally slips when you have the flu, say?

I definitely had these thoughts reading. She seemed to say that she has had long term relationships though, so I'm generally taking her at her word that it is possible to maintain a well-integrated persona if it's how you live your life anyway. I think her main point is that you can completely become a persona. Seems a little like getting a tattoo to me--you can change yourself into something beautiful, but it's expensive to do right, easy to do wrong, everyone has different opinions, and is difficult to undo later on?

[reboot]

Another thing that just occurred to me is that, unless you work in a field where seduction persona works professionally, how do you live your persona 24/7? It seems like a mask many people can not wear all the time.

I guess I should not doubt her LTR experience, but I am trying to imagine applying her advice every day for 20+ years and it seems exhausting. I suppose if your persona is a close fit to your natural personality/style it would be doable?

[Guest]

--what do I do about  hobbies that don't fit my brand? Knitting kayaker seems like a slightly unsteady platform to build a brand around...

There is not enough "this" in the world for this comment. Basically, she seems to suggest that you decide what you want to be, transform yourself into it, and then never let yourself venture outside of it to see if you might like something else more. I used to be a persona, in high school. I LIVED that persona. I was the fantasy-loving girl. I read fantasy novels. I bought long flowy skirts, and I had hair to my waist, and I (no joke), braided fresh flowers into it. I played RPGs, in which I was always a freaking bard. I dressed up in fantasy garb for weekend parties and school events. I did yoga. I listened to harp music and Celtic ballads. I was intense about that persona.

But at a certain point, I let myself drift outside of it. I found other things I liked, things that made me happy. Now my "persona" is less unified and clear, but I'm a better-balanced and happier human being.

[reboundstudent]

Another thing that just occurred to me is that, unless you work in a field where seduction persona works professionally, how do you live your persona 24/7? It seems like a mask many people can not wear all the time.

I guess I should not doubt her LTR experience, but I am trying to imagine applying her advice every day for 20+ years and it seems exhausting. I suppose if your persona is a close fit to your natural personality/style it would be doable?

"Exhausting" was the word that kept springing to mind when I read this book. (ElizaJane nailed pretty much everything that got under my skin during my first read-around.) Over the past few years, I actually have worked hard to make myself more attractive. I try to dress better, I try to pay closer attention to my appearance, I've spent much more time and money on my hair and my make-up, I've tried to cultivate interesting hobbies.... and yet, according to this book, it still wasn't enough because it was not a "seduction persona." I still wasn't working hard enough, despite (I'd estimate) doubling or even tripling my attention, time and money to being more attractive. Let me get this straight, book-not only do I have to radically and totally transform myself to the point where it seems everything I do should be based around seduction (can't really part-time waist train), AND do it pretty much nonstop for years?



I think if the book had been angled more towards a very specific type of relationship (short-lived, status-based, or somewhat superficial), it would have been a much less frustrating read. I would probably pick up a book on how to become a professional dom for fun, and I think her advice would have tailored to that much better than trying to convince me her "persona" advice would win me a guy who was actually worth having in the long run.

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