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High Libido, Low Drag [vent/disc]

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Post by The Mikey on Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:23 pm

EDIT: Sorry if I sound like an asshole, I’m feeling a touch raw/emotional right now. Feeling Bummed, shitty, lonely, and highly unattractive. Still getting no attention from any app and still too shy to try approaching anyone. I had joined a SoCal discord to try and increase social connections but that fizzled out quick. I fucking hate online dating and apps too.

None ever worked. I hate being shy with people I’m attracted to. Again, I’m just feeling emotional and shitty.

inbloomer wrote:I would suggest don't think of it as a list of things to tick off a checklist. I would define it as gradually making the interaction more intimate in tone than where it started, rather than getting stuck at superficial politeness and then trying to jump straight to "will you come on a date with me?"

It's as much about listening to cues as projecting them: I've had interactions where the woman was perfectly pleasant and happy to talk to me, but she subtly brushed off any attempts to up the intensity so I quickly abandoned them. It's if you don't get that and keep trying over and over that it becomes a problem.

Well no, I didn’t think it was a checklist. Frankly, I wouldn’t know how to make it more intimate in tone.  I am always polite and I always give people some modicum of basic respect and expect that in return. I’m just terrible at hinting at my attraction to women, terrible. I cannot fathom nor do I understand how to do that.

I listen for cues but I have zero clue what those cues are. I think I’m always projecting those cues and I’m positive it’s just wishful thinking. I was stupid as fuck thinking one of my coworkers was attracted to me since she came across as giggly and maybe ultra flirty. Then the other day she mentioned “the guy [she] was sorta seeing”, now I’m fairness, my attraction to her was waning but, I felt foolish even thinking she was remotely interested in me at all. (And slightly relieved.)

I don’t even try to up the intensity since I have no idea how or what to even say.

inbloomer wrote: In terms of exact things to say and do, as I say it depends an awful lot on the starting point. Flirting with someone you're already on a date with is going to be different from where you so far have a completely professional or platonic relationship with them and are trying to see if they are open to changing that. I would see it as a hierarchy: the same scene could play out with differences in emotional intensity.

Yeah, that would be different and if I’m being honest, sounds like a catch-22.

inbloomer wrote:

Example 1 - seeing someone at work on Monday morning and discussing what you did at the weekend.

Flirting: you are more emotionally open and more probing the ground for asking her on a weekend date in future. If not much happened and you felt a bit lonely, you might actually say so in a way that doesn't sound too depressive.  

Emotionally more open? I, uh, don’t know what that means.

inbloomer wrote:
Example 2 - practising a sport with someone

Flirting: you are being much more playful. If she's genuinely good at it you are really admiring, if she isn't you give her little chances to beat you. You could even get into teasing about minor prizes/forfeits for who wins and loses. Basically, the experience of you being together takes over from the core purpose of the activity.

Ahh I see. I dunno if I’d be in a situation like that, but it kinda makes sense?
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Post by The Mikey on Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:56 pm

I hate work crushes tbh.

I'm suffering from one right now really bad. Down to earth, chill, hates where we work, leans mostly left from what I can tell. Obviously not into the same things I am, but i think we could learn lol.

But I hate work crushes. Neutral
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Post by Hielario on Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:37 pm

Why? Is your workplace one of those with rules against dating coworkers? Or is there another reason?

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Post by Datelessman on Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:02 am

While I can't speak for The Mikey, but for me, as well as many trains of thought within American society, dating within the workplace is difficult. Mixing emotions with professionalism alone takes a lot of careful maneuvering and social smarts. The workplace isn't a socially accepted location for romantic efforts, and romances that do emerge usually bubble forth from a lot of mutual desire as well as, likely, exploration outside of work or at more socially acceptable locations (i.e. a work party, lunch/dinner/coffee outside of work or after work, etc.). If one party misunderstands another, it can lead to awkwardness, which can lower productivity and make a workplace have more tension. If things go really bad, or the workplace has strict anti-dating policies, then it can lead to a chat with HR and/or termination. Most jobs will easily be willing to overzealously fire one employee if they think it will prevent a sexual misconduct lawsuit from happening.

I've had crushes at work many times, including fairly recently (such as last year). But as someone who has a hard time navigating normal dating situations, I never saw fit to mingle work and pleasure. There's too much risk and too little reward. At best, if there is some mutual chemistry, it's best to take it outside of work.
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Post by inbloomer on Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:10 am

Datelessman wrote:While I can't speak for The Mikey, but for me, as well as many trains of thought within American society, dating within the workplace is difficult. Mixing emotions with professionalism alone takes a lot of careful maneuvering and social smarts. The workplace isn't a socially accepted location for romantic efforts, and romances that do emerge usually bubble forth from a lot of mutual desire as well as, likely, exploration outside of work or at more socially acceptable locations (i.e. a work party, lunch/dinner/coffee outside of work or after work, etc.). If one party misunderstands another, it can lead to awkwardness, which can lower productivity and make a workplace have more tension. If things go really bad, or the workplace has strict anti-dating policies, then it can lead to a chat with HR and/or termination. Most jobs will easily be willing to overzealously fire one employee if they think it will prevent a sexual misconduct lawsuit from happening.

I've had crushes at work many times, including fairly recently (such as last year). But as someone who has a hard time navigating normal dating situations, I never saw fit to mingle work and pleasure. There's too much risk and too little reward. At best, if there is some mutual chemistry, it's best to take it outside of work.

Although that isn't untrue, you can make similar arguments about clubs and societies - people can equally say they are there for the group's main activity, not to get asked out. Being asked to leave a club may be a bit less serious than getting sacked, but it's not fun. So actually, if you eliminate every situation that has those kind of risks, all you're left with is online dating, which has plenty of problems and limitations of its own.

Many of the supposed learnable skills around dating I don't believe actually have much impact on dating success, although they may be worthwhile in their own right. However, if you do consider daily activities a valid pipeline for meeting people, there is one tricky but important skill. That is, when there's someone who you "see around", but you aren't organically getting into conversations with, when is it OK to "go up and say hi" or equivalent?

From experience, there are times when you absolutely can, or it's a reasonable risk, and there are times when you just can't - however well-intentioned you are it will come across as weird and inappropriate. The lines between those can indeed be quite fine, and a small misjudgement can make things feel awkward for quite a while afterwards. But again, I think writing off anyone you meet through daily activities as too difficult and risky is cutting off your nose to spite your face.





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Post by Datelessman on Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:10 am

For the record, there is a gulf of difference between talking with a co-worker as a friend and/or making small talk, and trying to ask them out on a date.

As for how easy it is to break the ice at work, it depends on the job and the situation. At my last two gigs, I usually formed close bonds with people in my training class via that shared experience. Other times it can be someone who sits in the cubicle beside me, or in the same row. Or someone who I keep bumping into at the vending machine. Or even someone on the same "team" during a work meeting.

I don't know how others work, but for me, I can easily compartmentalize my various "social roles." I have "work mode," "weekend mode" and so on, same as everyone is usually different at work versus at home. Once I get over some shyness I am often pretty chatty at work. A sense of humor is very helpful, and I've noticed even the slightest bit of imagination impresses people. It's almost pathetic, in a way. I can tell a clever joke and some people act like I found the Rosetta Stone. But I still know I am at work and not to blend things too much. In fact I imagine most if not all of my co-workers would be surprised to learn I was a dateless virgin off the clock. My "work persona" is often very confident and competent, and I can sound like I know what I am talking about, even when I don't.

As for breaking the ice with a co-worker who you have nothing to do with, the shared work environment is usually fine for an icebreaker. But as for shifting it beyond casual well...that's Dating 401 and I am still in Remedial Learning (featuring the puppets "Best Self" and "Grimes"). For what it is worth, I've been at quite a few jobs where the dudes rarely had much fear about being slightly flirty with some women, at least during breaks or lunch, but I've never been so bold. Heck, at one call center the women (mostly quite older) were worse about that than the guys were. But I still consider such a thing risky. Most people at work are there to work.
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Post by inbloomer on Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:31 pm

That all sounds sensible thinking. An example of what I had in mind is with sports clubs, where you often have a core group you train with directly, and then a wider circle of people who use the same facilities at the same times but aren't in your group. Breaking the ice within your core group will usually happen organically. Breaking the ice with people in the wider circle ... that's where it's a lot more tricky and depends on fine judgement of the situation.

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Post by Hielario on Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:32 pm

Since I'm Very Inexperienced in this regard and I suspect workplace culture is different where I live, I haven't much to say, except for two things that I really need to get out:
A)
Most jobs will easily be willing to overzealously fire one employee if they think it will prevent a sexual misconduct lawsuit from happening.
This sounds fucking terrifying.

B) What happens if you try to summon Mr. "Respectable Work Persona" in other contexts?

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Post by Datelessman on Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:45 am

inbloomer wrote:That all sounds sensible thinking. An example of what I had in mind is with sports clubs, where you often have a core group you train with directly, and then a wider circle of people who use the same facilities at the same times but aren't in your group. Breaking the ice within your core group will usually happen organically. Breaking the ice with people in the wider circle ... that's where it's a lot more tricky and depends on fine judgement of the situation.

As well as a degree of circumstance (or, luck, basically). Or some social overlap, such as if some people in your core group happen to know some people in outer groups. The difference with work versus a sports club is that a lot of times these groups are mandatory. You may have an assigned seat, desk, or cubicle which happens to be beside some people. You have no clue who is in a training class (it could be a room full of dudes and old biddies or a squad where a third of the women are younger and on the rebound), and that takes a degree of luck, too. But the biggest difference is that attempting to mingle a potentially romantic role with a work role is not the easiest thing to do, carries considerable risk which can have economic consequences, and that, in general, work is not or should not be seen as a dating opportunity. If something arises it is usually a good idea to do most of the exploring outside of work.

And that doesn't even get into the idea of rank within a company. I.E. the stigma and consequences of dating someone "above" or "below" you. Although, it is worth a mention, that anyone who examines Hollywood or Politics at any length will see that most of it is essentially nepotism (i.e. people who knew people or dated people).

Hielario wrote:Since I'm Very Inexperienced in this regard and I suspect workplace culture is different where I live, I haven't much to say, except for two things that I really need to get out:
A)
Most jobs will easily be willing to overzealously fire one employee if they think it will prevent a sexual misconduct lawsuit from happening.
This sounds fucking terrifying.

B) What happens if you try to summon Mr. "Respectable Work Persona" in other contexts?

It is quite terrifying. Bare in mind that in America, where union representation is below 10% of the workforce, that most jobs work like mini-kingdoms. The lower level a worker is, the more expendable they are, but anyone is vulnerable to the whims of those at the top. If your CEO is on a coke binge and wants another yacht and firing 10 people at random will do that and the business will be okay, then at least 10 people have to always be nervous. And in case you think I am being overly silly or cynical describing a CEO like this, allow me to link a news article from 2018 which features a story about a Google executive who died of a drug overdose on his yacht with the prostitute he'd hired for her services being convicted of charges that she essentially killed him with too many drugs on purpose. It only made news because the guy died. Had he lived, a "tech exec on a boat with drugs and a sex worker" would be about average for a Friday night. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/alix-tichelman-call-girl-killer-describes-death-of-google-executive-forrest-hayes/

As for B), if I took "Mr. Work Persona" to other contexts, that would mean I call people "sir" or "ma'am" endlessly, I never get overly confrontational unless I lose my cool, and above all I put off an air of seeming like I know more than I actually do. The latter is actually a concern to me dating wise because I kind of do that without always meaning to. Between my natural affinity for humor and just the way I carry myself professionally (at least post-2014 or so), I could easily see myself in a situation where if things go well, that means in part a woman is severely overestimating my romantic skills and experience; which makes me fret about a letdown. It's like meeting the Fonz and then only once things get steamy does it seem clear he has no clue what to do. And while reacting to a surprise is a very subjective thing, few people when asked what they want in a new relationship will say "a surprise." Especially a surprise which leads to more instructions to heavy petting than may be needed for an average hookup. pale

There's also the fact that I don't have jobs which involve things I am passionate about. I.E. my work persona is how I pay the rent, and off the clock I am more passionate about almost everything else. Beyond telling the occasional "work story" or two. For example, currently my day job involves talking about stocks and shares and technical financial crap I do not give a darn about at all. To the point that if I managed to meet a woman who was genuinely into that and wanted to talk about it all the time, that might border on being a dealbreaker for me. Or at least a situation I would not want to be in -- "Can I pretend to care more about the stock market just enough to finally get laid? Has my life become an episode of LOVE, AMERICAN STYLE?" In theory this is good because we're told that woman don't like men who seem to identify only with their jobs. In practice, well...I imagine the older male virgin community does not overlap with certain occupations much.
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Post by inbloomer on Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:00 pm

It sounds to me like we're talking about really quite different cultures. Where I am, the bar to being fired (or expelled from a club) is relatively high, but there is a lot of pressure to bring your whole self to work, be genuinely passionate about it, and form personal relationships that go well beyond basic courtesy, rather than just treating it as something that pays the bills.

At the same time, concerns about sexual harassment and appropriateness have definitely got stronger over the last few years here as well. I'm certainly not saying the workplace is an ideal environment for dating, but I do think opportunities (or temptations, whatever you want to call it) can come up as a direct result of doing what you're expected to do in the job.





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Post by Hielario on Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:11 pm

IThe only part that I find weird is firing people merely to have some extra money, but the whole thing feels familiar otherwise, don"t worry. I guess down here they prefer underpaying or withholding salaries because of pretend "difficulties". (Well, and cocaine with their prostitutes instead of heroine.)

You know, I understand your concerns about expectations and not knowing what to do carnally, but I find slightly peculiar how your imagination never accounts for the burning intensity of someone released after decades of frustration (The other me may or may not have trampled someone over a sofa because of it).

LOVE, AMERICAN STYLE
I don't understand the reference. Internet tells me it was some sort of romantic comedy?
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Post by Datelessman on Fri Nov 27, 2020 6:16 am

inbloomer wrote:It sounds to me like we're talking about really quite different cultures. Where I am, the bar to being fired (or expelled from a club) is relatively high, but there is a lot of pressure to bring your whole self to work, be genuinely passionate about it, and form personal relationships that go well beyond basic courtesy, rather than just treating it as something that pays the bills.

At the same time, concerns about sexual harassment and appropriateness have definitely got stronger over the last few years here as well. I'm certainly not saying the workplace is an ideal environment for dating, but I do think opportunities (or temptations, whatever you want to call it) can come up as a direct result of doing what you're expected to do in the job.

I'm not sure where you're from but in New York, I have yet to work any job where I didn't know in no uncertain terms that I was expendable and could be fired at any time for any reason. And that includes the one city job I had (which fired me 2.5 weeks before I would be become permanent and had more union protections; a routine practice for them). I've been at my current gig for 2 years and I'm merely one rung above "seasonal temp." And thanks to the Covid Economy, worker desperation will get even worse. But at least the minimum wage is $15 here.

You are correct that romantic opportunities can and do happen at the workplace. Statistically it's actually one of the most common ways couples meet. I just am wary of it or of
recommending people, especially fellow romantic novices, place too many eggs in that basket. If that makes sense.

Hielario wrote:IThe only part that I find weird is firing people merely to have some extra money, but the whole thing feels familiar otherwise, don"t worry. I guess down here they prefer underpaying or withholding salaries because of pretend "difficulties". (Well, and cocaine with their prostitutes instead of heroine.)

You know, I understand your concerns about expectations and not knowing what to do carnally, but I find slightly peculiar how your imagination never accounts for the burning intensity of someone released after decades of frustration  (The other me may or may not have trampled someone over a sofa because of it).

LOVE, AMERICAN STYLE
I don't understand the reference. Internet tells me it was some sort of romantic comedy?

"Love, American Style" was a CBS sitcom from 1969-1974 that had two relaunch attempts in 1985 (which ran 2 seasons) and 1999. Decades TV (a local digital channel in NY) does binges of the show often for some reason which is the only reason I am aware of it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love,_American_Style

Dropping bits of random, useless trivia is how I roll sometimes.

As for my "concerns" about "what to do carnally," I am simply aware that inexperience and "burning intensity" is not automatically a good mix. I would probably be far too anxious to just use pure lust to bowl over my self-doubts. I try to be realistic about things and imagining myself doing well my first time "carnally" always seems to far into the realm of fantasy or science fiction to me. I've never been very good at anything without a lot of practice; I doubt sex is any different. I don't think it's helpful for me to imagine an improbable situation in that regard (not impossible; merely improbable). At this point I am rolling with theory that due to the high percentage of men out there who are either lazy and/or selfish lovers, that so long as I display concern and interest about my partner's wishes, what she wants and how she wants it done, that I will seem about average despite my inexperience. That or I'm horrible, but I've hopefully made enough of an emotional connection that she likes me anyway and is willing to try again. If "terrible personality, awesome in the sack" can get a repeat performance sometimes, why not "funny dude, milquetoast lay"?

Although, and to bring this somewhat back to topic, I could also imagine "Mr. Work Persona" as you called it take over during such an experience. I am not afraid of asking lots of questions and sorting out what clients want, and taking direction. And who knows, maybe me slipping and replying with a "yes, ma'am" out of instinct might be amusing.
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Post by Hielario on Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:38 pm

Dropping bits of random, useless trivia is how I roll sometimes.

As for my "concerns" about "what to do carnally," I am simply aware that inexperience and "burning intensity" is not automatically a good mix. I would probably be far too anxious to just use pure lust to bowl over my self-doubts. I try to be realistic about things and imagining myself doing well my first time "carnally" always seems to far into the realm of fantasy or science fiction to me. I've never been very good at anything without a lot of practice; I doubt sex is any different. I don't think it's helpful for me to imagine an improbable situation in that regard (not impossible; merely improbable). At this point I am rolling with theory that due to the high percentage of men out there who are either lazy and/or selfish lovers, that so long as I display concern and interest about my partner's wishes, what she wants and how she wants it done, that I will seem about average despite my inexperience. That or I'm horrible, but I've hopefully made enough of an emotional connection that she likes me anyway and is willing to try again. If "terrible personality, awesome in the sack" can get a repeat performance sometimes, why not "funny dude, milquetoast lay"?


Hrrrrmmm i was going more for a "ugh, he has no idea... but DAMN he's enthusiastic!" kind of scenario instead of your horny overriding your anxiety, but I guess you answered that too. Focus on that idea that you would be average, though, it's a solid reasoning. I see you lack reasons to think being with you would be anything other than "meh", but that also excludes "catastrophic".

And who knows, maybe me slipping and replying with a "yes, ma'am" out of instinct might be amusing
Considering the popularity of regency romance novels, it might be arousing, even. XD.

Sigh...I'm kinda sad "adopt a dude dot com" worked so badly in practice. It was the ideal place to behave as if you were selling a product. (Yes, it's real. I tried it and it was an absolute nonfuctional mess.)

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Post by inbloomer on Sun Nov 29, 2020 12:56 pm

Datelessman wrote:
You are correct that romantic opportunities can and do happen at the workplace. Statistically it's actually one of the most common ways couples meet. I just am wary of it or of
recommending people, especially fellow romantic novices, place too many eggs in that basket. If that makes sense.


I agree with that. Even with clubs and societies, I would urge people to proceed with caution - if there's one thing I'd recommend there, it's to make the effort to be equally friendly with everyone. Things might in time develop organically with one particular person. But do not be someone who makes a beeline for the attractive women and is off-hand with everyone else. People will notice.

I just think it would be a mistake to think organised dating is much easier or more effective. The Guardian newspaper has a blind date feature that they've been running for many years, where both parties write up a questionnaire about the date afterwards. Basically, every single time one or both says there was no chemistry and if they met again at all, it would only be as friends. Even if you look at what happens in trashier versions, like Naked Attraction, most of the time the date never leads anywhere.

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