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The fear of "Too Late"

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The fear of "Too Late" - Page 24 Empty Re: The fear of "Too Late"

Post by Werel Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:21 pm

Everything Enail said up there ^.

Enail wrote:I get wanting to preserve all options when you're not sure what you want or what's the right choice, but it doesn't really work. If you keep those doors open at the cost of actually going through any doors, the doors might be technically open, but the effect is the same as if they were all closed. It's sacrificing any actual improvements on the altar of possibility.
YEP

Dat ubiquitous Sylvia Plath quote
The Bell Jar wrote:I saw my life branching out before me like the green fig tree in the story. From the tip of every branch, like a fat purple fig, a wonderful future beckoned and winked... I saw myself sitting in the crotch of this fig tree, starving to death, just because I couldn't make up my mind which of the figs I would choose. I wanted each and every one of them, but choosing one meant losing all the rest, and, as I sat there, unable to decide, the figs began to wrinkle and go black, and, one by one, they plopped to the ground at my feet.”

bomaye wrote:Otherwise, the normal machine is uncaring, if you are not normal enough they will find someone else who is normal enough, so you'd best act as normal as possible and think as normal as possible or at least appear as both. It cannot be defeated, its mind cannot be changed, hopefully you are normal enough or better luck next time. "Fake it until you make it xDDDDD"
Contempt for some social systems ain't misplaced, but I'm still not sure what you mean by "normal" except "not an overt target for mockery"? Like Enail said, plenty of us weirdos make that fact known, but also find the kinds of success you're talking about.

bomaye wrote:Also destroys your credit rating :p
Actually, your current path also means a bad credit rating-- you don't get a good one right out of the box, it has to be built up. You currently lack a good credit history because you've never had a credit card, loan, etc. If you're actually worried about having a good score, you'll have to go do stuff like make credit card purchases or get loans and earn money to pay them down, and student loans is as good a way to do that as any. Razz
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Post by nearly_takuan Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:26 am

My experience has been that student loans have almost no (positive) impact on your credit rating if you do pay them, since taking one of those out is considered "too safe" with the deferment option that's supposedly available. (He said, glaring menacingly at an effigy apparently intended to represent Wall Street fat-cats as he set it ablaze.) But yeah, building a credit rating requires using credit, which requires paying off the credit, which requires steady income, which is easier to get (but still not easy!) if you have good credentials (and formal education counts).
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Post by bomaye Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:35 pm

I would much rather be in the "just beginning to build credit" category than the "defaulted on loans and destroyed credit for awhile" category :p
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Post by bomaye Tue Jan 19, 2016 11:52 pm




But does it have to be love? Isn't it possible that extreme zen or some other mental attitude or feeling could serve the same purpose?

And it is totally possible that there's something you haven't tried that you would love. It's not always "see someone doing an activity, suddenly realize that's your one true purpose in life and you have to do it," sometimes it's more of a slow thing that builds over time as you keep it up and becomes a meaningful part of your life. Which is only sort of semi-relevant because I don't think that kind of thing becomes a defense against judgement very quickly, but still.

I don't know what else it could be. "Trying things" doesn't work out for me, I worry too much about screwing up to enjoy stuff like that


It's the closing of some doors and options, but it's also one that opens some doors and options that would otherwise be closed.

I get wanting to preserve all options when you're not sure what you want or what's the right choice, but it doesn't really work. If you keep those doors open at the cost of actually going through any doors, the doors might be technically open, but the effect is the same as if they were all closed. It's sacrificing any actual improvements on the altar of possibility.

But you can make the wrong choice, and then it's fucking over.


Okay, but you've got the answer, you don't get those things, right? If that part's decided, leave it be, you've chosen and those things will remain missing. If that's the situation, that's it, no further thought required, right?

So move on to looking at the options that don't involve those kinds of risks, don't potentially close any doors - but still mostly don't have guarantees - and figure out if the things those options might give you are beneficial/likely enough to be worth trying, if they'll improve your life or open any doors that aren't open now or take away some of the risks for the big leap options.

...Or else, the idea that those things that have too much risk to pursue will remain missing is something you can't accept, and you won't leave it be. In which case, you've got to go back and decide to walk through one of those door even though it means risks or closes some other doors, to put that energy into seeing that the fabric is imperfect and torn in places and wearing it anyway, into not picking at the frayed edges and poking holes in it further. Or if you can't walk through those doors now, deciding that you want to become able to, and working at the small practical things that will make it more possible, on mending some of the tears in the fabric until you can wear it, and keep trying not to rip it apart.

Look, I'm massively concerned about it because I'm almost 30, I'm a near maximum level loser, and there's a point where it's irreversible and no one will ever want me. It may already be past that point for all I know. I have to make the right choice, if you don't have your life together by the time you hit 30, it's basically fucking over, I'll just be some endless virgin starving to death in an alley somewhere. This stuff scares the living shit out of me, and you guys are all like "Nah it's okay" but all of you more or less did things at the right times, so you don't have to make up for anything. It's like being 4 feet tall and being told by a 6 footer "Don't worry, you'll grow" and it's like "NO, that's not guaranteed to happen at all, what are you talking about." I don't know what to do at all. I'm not a social person, I'm not a person that people automatically like or overlook things for, I panic in situations I'm not familiar with, I get nervous easily which makes other people nervous. Fucking 7-11 and Tim Hortons wouldn't take me, who is gonna take me?

[quote="Werel"]
Dat ubiquitous Sylvia Plath quote
The Bell Jar wrote:I saw my life branching out before me like the green fig tree in the story. From the tip of every branch, like a fat purple fig, a wonderful future beckoned and winked... I saw myself sitting in the crotch of this fig tree, starving to death, just because I couldn't make up my mind which of the figs I would choose. I wanted each and every one of them, but choosing one meant losing all the rest, and, as I sat there, unable to decide, the figs began to wrinkle and go black, and, one by one, they plopped to the ground at my feet.”

And choosing the wrong one still means starving to death


Contempt for some social systems ain't misplaced, but I'm still not sure what you mean by "normal" except "not an overt target for mockery"? Like Enail said, plenty of us weirdos make that fact known, but also find the kinds of success you're talking about.

You started at the right times. How weird can you be if you're doing everything more or less at the right times?
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Post by bomaye Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:04 am

Sorry for language and tone. I'm having a day that's kind of messed around with the emotional barriers I prop myself up with and some stuff is just kind of flooding out. "I'm stuck and I'm scared and I can't see a future where I'm anything but alone."
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Post by Werel Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:28 am

bomaye wrote:But you can make the wrong choice, and then it's fucking over.
I'm trying to think of a choice you're likely to make that could actually game-over you. Things like that include "develop meth addiction," "impregnate a very bad person," "commit and be caught for felony," etc. None of those seem like your speed. A single choice with a Fucking Over outcome is pretty rare.

If what you're talking about is making a series of really, really bad choices, then sure. But what kind of really bad ongoing choices do you think you'd make? Debt? A steady stream of new loans without any hope of payment? Entering and staying in a bad relationship? Picking the wrong career track? Or maybe constantly choosing to put off any action, which is itself a choice?

Most choices have an exit, even pretty far down the path. Don't let fear of getting trapped be the actual thing that traps you.

bomaye wrote:I have to make the right choice, if you don't have your life together by the time you hit 30, it's basically fucking over, I'll just be some endless virgin starving to death in an alley somewhere.
Brah back up off this "30 is the end" bit, you're making me even more scared Laughing

IDK how much of that is panic hyperbole and how much is serious, but you gotta give up this idea that there's one right choice if you could only figure it out, and that given enough time you totally could. There isn't. It's a fantasy that facilitates continuing to not choose. There are just a lot of choices that lead to various other choices and you keep making choices till you're dead and that's it. And most people blow some/many/most of those choices and survive.

bomaye wrote:This stuff scares the living shit out of me, and you guys are all like "Nah it's okay" but all of you more or less did things at the right times, so you don't have to make up for anything.
How's this: IT'S NOT OKAY, YOU'RE FUCKED Run in circles flail

It's scary, man. It's scary for people who did things at "normal" times, and probably more scary for you cause you don't have a layer of failure-callus built up yet.

I'm not saying you're guaranteed to ever get a job or a girlfriend or an apartment or a degree or whatever else. I'm not saying that it's okay or no big that you feel so behind. I don't think anyone else is, either. We're saying "the stuff you want is probably feasible. If you want to try for it, cool, let's talk about ways to maximize the odds."

But listen, I hear you: it's fucking scary. Life is terrifying. Nobody in their right mind denies that fact. It's why people need each other and courage.

bomaye wrote:You started at the right times. How weird can you be if you're doing everything more or less at the right times?
I didn't do everything at the normal time. Razz

Timing isn't the only axis of weird, anyway. Plenty of super-norms on most axes who had early or late milestones, and timeline-norms who are otherwise super weirdos.



Sorry you're having a rough day. Scared and lonely are a really awful combo.
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Post by Enail Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:39 am

bomaye wrote:

But does it have to be love? Isn't it possible that extreme zen or some other mental attitude or feeling could serve the same purpose?

And it is totally possible that there's something you haven't tried that you would love. It's not always "see someone doing an activity, suddenly realize that's your one true purpose in life and you have to do it," sometimes it's more of a slow thing that builds over time as you keep it up and becomes a meaningful part of your life. Which is only sort of semi-relevant because I don't think that kind of thing becomes a defense against judgement very quickly, but still.

I don't know what else it could be. "Trying things" doesn't work out for me, I worry too much about screwing up to enjoy stuff like that

What about just trying some no-risk stuff on your own, just playing around to see if there's anything you enjoy?


It's the closing of some doors and options, but it's also one that opens some doors and options that would otherwise be closed.

I get wanting to preserve all options when you're not sure what you want or what's the right choice, but it doesn't really work. If you keep those doors open at the cost of actually going through any doors, the doors might be technically open, but the effect is the same as if they were all closed. It's sacrificing any actual improvements on the altar of possibility.

But you can make the wrong choice, and then it's fucking over.

That's...not really how life works, for the most part. It's not a bunch of doors with a pot of gold behind some of them and a tiger behind the others, it's ups and downs and paths that you can't see the end of. Which is not to say that everything always works out in the end, things can go totally wrong, but that's usually a collection of choices and things that are not choices (and lots of those things can happen no matter what you choose), and this one choice, as big as it is and as little as you can see where it may lead, is not going to give you game over just like that.


Look, I'm massively concerned about it because I'm almost 30, I'm a near maximum level loser, and there's a point where it's irreversible and no one will ever want me. It may already be past that point for all I know. I have to make the right choice, if you don't have your life together by the time you hit 30, it's basically fucking over, I'll just be some endless virgin starving to death in an alley somewhere. This stuff scares the living shit out of me, and you guys are all like "Nah it's okay" but all of you more or less did things at the right times, so you don't have to make up for anything. It's like being 4 feet tall and being told by a 6 footer "Don't worry, you'll grow" and it's like "NO, that's not guaranteed to happen at all, what are you talking about." I don't know what to do at all. I'm not a social person, I'm not a person that people automatically like or overlook things for, I panic in situations I'm not familiar with, I get nervous easily which makes other people nervous. Fucking 7-11 and Tim Hortons wouldn't take me, who is gonna take me?

Hey, hold up there, the fact that you didn't get those jobs does not mean that 7-11 or Tim Hortons won't take you, that no one will. It's normal not to get hired at the first few places that hire you (ETA: oops, I mean "that you apply to", it is definitely not normal not to get hired at the first few places that hire you Laughing), that is totally, 100% normal and absolutely doesn't mean you can't get hired. If it turns out that you can't get hired at anywhere that's doable for you, there are things you can do to become more hireable. That kind of stuff can be a pain, but it is a regular part of things that people have to do sometimes, not a sign that things are hopeless.

I understand why you're scared, but I think putting all that pressure on making the "right" choice is missing the mark. What you need to do, more than anything else, is to do things. There isn't a hard-and-fast deadline you have to get it together by or it's over, but you are right to be feeling like you need to do something now - the sooner you start on things, the better. Letting yourself get paralyzed with fear or the overwhelmingness of the decision is the worst thing you can do, almost anything you decide on will be better than putting off taking action until you somehow find a perfect option. Do something. If you can't get a job, do something that can add to your resume or practice your interviewing skills. If you can't jump into a new situation without panicking, find ways to get exposure to some of the new elements and practice in advance. If you can't make a big leap decision, do something that you can do without commitment or risk, that can earn you some money or give you some skills. Even if the things you start with don't chart a straight path to the perfect career or aren't enough to live on or are too small or uncertain or minor, that's better than holding off indefinitely.

And yeah, none of the people posting in this thread have the same experiences you have (though for me at least, it's only the fact that it's in retrospect at this point that it looks like I did anything at "the right time"). But some of us have experiences hiring people, or helping people find work, figuring out who will be good to work with, or having coworkers or meeting people we knew in high school, judging people and not judging them; we're not you, but the people you're having to deal with out in the world won't be you either.  

Werel wrote:

Contempt for some social systems ain't misplaced, but I'm still not sure what you mean by "normal" except "not an overt target for mockery"? Like Enail said, plenty of us weirdos make that fact known, but also find the kinds of success you're talking about.

You started at the right times. How weird can you be if you're doing everything more or less at the right times?

Didn't you consider yourself a weirdo before you were "behind" on things? Surely weirdo means something beyond when you do what?


Last edited by Enail on Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by bomaye Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:11 am

Werel wrote:
If what you're talking about is making a series of really, really bad choices, then sure. But what kind of really bad ongoing choices do you think you'd make? Debt? A steady stream of new loans without any hope of payment? Entering and staying in a bad relationship? Picking the wrong career track? Or maybe constantly choosing to put off any action, which is itself a choice?

I could definitely end up doing half of that accidentally if I tried anything


Most choices have an exit, even pretty far down the path. Don't let fear of getting trapped be the actual thing that traps you.

:/

bomaye wrote:
Brah back up off this "30 is the end" bit, you're making me even more scared Laughing

It is the societal mark for "now you are a fully functioning responsible adult" :p


IDK how much of that is panic hyperbole and how much is serious, but you gotta give up this idea that there's one right choice if you could only figure it out, and that given enough time you totally could. There isn't. It's a fantasy that facilitates continuing to not choose. There are just a lot of choices that lead to various other choices and you keep making choices till you're dead and that's it. And most people blow some/many/most of those choices and survive.

Most of them have other resources.


How's this: IT'S NOT OKAY, YOU'RE FUCKED Run in circles flail

BETTER


It's scary, man. It's scary for people who did things at "normal" times, and probably more scary for you cause you don't have a layer of failure-callus built up yet.

I'm not saying you're guaranteed to ever get a job or a girlfriend or an apartment or a degree or whatever else. I'm not saying that it's okay or no big that you feel so behind. I don't think anyone else is, either. We're saying "the stuff you want is probably feasible. If you want to try for it, cool, let's talk about ways to maximize the odds."

But listen, I hear you: it's fucking scary. Life is terrifying. Nobody in their right mind denies that fact. It's why people need each other and courage.

I'm pretty low on both :/


Enail wrote:
What about just trying some no-risk stuff on your own, just playing around to see if there's anything you enjoy?

I'm not sure what low-risk stuff there is that I haven't already tried


That's...not really how life works, for the most part. It's not a bunch of doors with a pot of gold behind some of them and a tiger behind the others, it's ups and downs and paths that you can't see the end of. Which is not to say that everything always works out in the end, things can go totally wrong, but that's usually a collection of choices and things that are not choices (and lots of those things can happen no matter what you choose), and this one choice, as big as it is and as little as you can see where it may lead, is not going to give you game over just like that.

I have a hard time believing that. There's people who make the one correct choice and then everything works out for them after that. It can easily happen the other way too.


Hey, hold up there, the fact that you didn't get those jobs does not mean that 7-11 or Tim Hortons won't take you, that no one will. It's normal not to get hired at the first few places that hire you, that is totally, 100% normal and absolutely doesn't mean you can't get hired. If it turns out that you can't get hired at anywhere that's doable for you, there are things you can do to become more hireable. That kind of stuff can be a pain, but it is a regular part of things that people have to do sometimes, not a sign that things are hopeless.

I understand why you're scared, but I think putting all that pressure on making the "right" choice is missing the mark. What you need to do, more than anything else, is to do things. There isn't a hard-and-fast deadline you have to get it together by or it's over, but you are right to be feeling like you need to do something now - the sooner you start on things, the better. Letting yourself get paralyzed with fear or the overwhelmingness of the decision is the worst thing you can do, almost anything you decide on will be better than putting off taking action until you somehow find a perfect option. Do something. If you can't get a job, do something that can add to your resume or practice your interviewing skills. If you can't jump into a new situation without panicking, find ways to get exposure to some of the new elements and practice in advance. If you can't make a big leap decision, do something that you can do without commitment or risk, that can earn you some money or give you some skills. Even if the things you start with don't chart a straight path to the perfect career or aren't enough to live on or are too small or uncertain or minor, that's better than holding off indefinitely.

The cycle of me trying something new:

>Try thing
>Start to figure it out
>Resent doing it because I don't like doing it
>"Who am I doing this for?"
>"It's not me because it's not getting me anywhere."
>Quit

Just doing things to do things doesn't often lead me anywhere. Otherwise I'd already be somewhere. :/


And yeah, none of the people posting in this thread have the same experiences you have (though for me at least, it's only the fact that it's in retrospect at this point that it looks like I did anything at "the right time"). But some of us have experiences hiring people, or helping people find work, figuring out who will be good to work with, or having coworkers or meeting people we knew in high school, judging people and not judging them; we're not you, but the people you're having to deal with out in the world won't be you either.

Yes, nothing will go wrong with being socially out of synch and then trying to match up with these things :p


Didn't you consider yourself a weirdo before you were "behind" on things? Surely weirdo means something beyond when you do what?

It's being socially out of sync with those around you. Grade 4 or 5 that started becoming noticeable, and has remained so ever since.
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Post by Enail Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:31 pm

bomaye wrote:
Enail wrote:
What about just trying some no-risk stuff on your own, just playing around to see if there's anything you enjoy?

I'm not sure what low-risk stuff there is that I haven't already tried

Have you ever thought about taking up some things you used to enjoy?


That's...not really how life works, for the most part. It's not a bunch of doors with a pot of gold behind some of them and a tiger behind the others, it's ups and downs and paths that you can't see the end of. Which is not to say that everything always works out in the end, things can go totally wrong, but that's usually a collection of choices and things that are not choices (and lots of those things can happen no matter what you choose), and this one choice, as big as it is and as little as you can see where it may lead, is not going to give you game over just like that.

I have a hard time believing that. There's people who make the one correct choice and then everything works out for them after that. It can easily happen the other way too.

There really aren't many people like that. Most people fuck up or struggle at various times in their lives, however good a big choice they've made. And like Werel said, most of the big "game over" wrong choices don't really seem like things you're likely to do (and even those have possibilities of fixing it, there are recovering meth addicts and ex-convicts who get their lives back on track and so forth).


The cycle of me trying something new:

>Try thing
>Start to figure it out
>Resent doing it because I don't like doing it
>"Who am I doing this for?"
>"It's not me because it's not getting me anywhere."
>Quit

Just doing things to do things doesn't often lead me anywhere. Otherwise I'd already be somewhere. :/

Assuming we're talking about stuff related to the practical side of things here(above where I was suggesting just playing around with stuff, that was more about the personal fulfillment side), what those things would get you are things like reserve money, skills that people pay money for, being more hireable, the ability to handle some of those situations that might otherwise have you panicking. They're not going to teleport you straight to somewhere in one fell swoop, but they could move you along on the path.

And, really, most things don't teleport people straight somewhere. A good percentage of the people that you're looking at as having made one big right choice that worked out for them had to do a lot of indirect 'moving along the path' kinds of things to make that big choice possible in the first place, or to make it actually work out once they've made it. You've got some black-and-white thinking going on here that makes it hard for you, because most good things happen by putting in a fair amount of sticking it out even though you can't see the progress, until you can.

I wonder if it would be useful to go way back to that list of Adulting and add in the things that you might need to get somewhere you want to be, the things that would help you get a job or have some backup, and then try and systematically tackle some of those items. That might help you keep a view of what you're doing it for when it starts to feel pointless.


And yeah, none of the people posting in this thread have the same experiences you have (though for me at least, it's only the fact that it's in retrospect at this point that it looks like I did anything at "the right time"). But some of us have experiences hiring people, or helping people find work, figuring out who will be good to work with, or having coworkers or meeting people we knew in high school, judging people and not judging them; we're not you, but the people you're having to deal with out in the world won't be you either.

Yes, nothing will go wrong with being socially out of synch and then trying to match up with these things :p

Things can go wrong with that. But that doesn't mean they can never go right.


Didn't you consider yourself a weirdo before you were "behind" on things? Surely weirdo means something beyond when you do what?

It's being socially out of sync with those around you. Grade 4 or 5 that started becoming noticeable, and has remained so ever since.

That doesn't magically disappear just because a person happened to do something at "the right time." Razz
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Post by bomaye Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:51 pm

Enail wrote:
Have you ever thought about taking up some things you used to enjoy?

They're things you sit at a desk to do, an I have taken them up from time to time. Except for playing pick-up sports, which my body kind of sucks now and even when I was playing them, I did not like a lot of the people I was playing with or kind of their attitudes (as I recall, one guy said "I feel sorry for [Mad], no girl's gonna want to have sex with him. Even though his friend said "That's a mean thing to say" and he was like a short guy anyways <_<) :/


There really aren't many people like that. Most people fuck up or struggle at various times in their lives, however good a big choice they've made. And like Werel said, most of the big "game over" wrong choices don't really seem like things you're likely to do (and even those have possibilities of fixing it, there are recovering meth addicts and ex-convicts who get their lives back on track and so forth).

So what you're saying is I should do meth


Assuming we're talking about stuff related to the practical side of things here(above where I was suggesting just playing around with stuff, that was more about the personal fulfillment side), what those things would get you are things like reserve money, skills that people pay money for, being more hireable, the ability to handle some of those situations that might otherwise have you panicking. They're not going to teleport you straight to somewhere in one fell swoop, but they could move you along on the path.

And, really, most things don't teleport people straight somewhere. A good percentage of the people that you're looking at as having made one big right choice that worked out for them had to do a lot of indirect 'moving along the path' kinds of things to make that big choice possible in the first place, or to make it actually work out once they've made it. You've got some black-and-white thinking going on here that makes it hard for you, because most good things happen by putting in a fair amount of sticking it out even though you can't see the progress, until you can.

I wonder if it would be useful to go way back to that list of Adulting and add in the things that you might need to get somewhere you want to be, the things that would help you get a job or have some backup, and then try and systematically tackle some of those items. That might help you keep a view of what you're doing it for when it starts to feel pointless.

"1. Do meth."


Things can go wrong with that. But that doesn't mean they can never go right.

I'm not a positive thinker, I don't think "how can this go right" and then expect it to happen :p


That doesn't magically disappear just because a person happened to do something at "the right time." Razz

It would probably magically dissipate the feeling at least :/
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Post by Werel Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:28 pm

bomaye wrote:
They're things you sit at a desk to do, an I have taken them up from time to time. Except for playing pick-up sports, which my body kind of sucks now and even when I was playing them, I did not like a lot of the people I was playing with or kind of their attitudes (as I recall, one guy said "I feel sorry for [Mad], no girl's gonna want to have sex with him. Even though his friend said "That's a mean thing to say" and he was like a short guy anyways <_<) :/
On the "my body kind of sucks now" front, I think you said you'd tried using a stationary bike or similar while watching TV and it paid off some dopamine dividends. Would getting your body closer to pickup sports condition be a thing that feels worthwhile, or feel like progress in itself (because physical milestones like running time or heart rate are pretty quantifiable, and being more fit is always a good thing)? Plus, it could get you back in condition to do a thing you used to like, and one which is a pretty low-stakes low-conversation way to get back in the swing of interacting with strangers. Assuming there's anybody in your town to play pickup sports with who's not a total douche, that is. Razz (Fuck that guy.)


So what you're saying is I should do meth
Yes

bomaye wrote:I have a hard time believing that. There's people who make the one correct choice and then everything works out for them after that. It can easily happen the other way too.
Suspect What. Where are these people. Show me one.

bomaye wrote:The cycle of me trying something new:

>Try thing
>Start to figure it out
>Resent doing it because I don't like doing it
>"Who am I doing this for?"
>"It's not me because it's not getting me anywhere."
>Quit

Just doing things to do things doesn't often lead me anywhere. Otherwise I'd already be somewhere. :/
Here's an actual difference between you and lots of other people, I think: for most people it's like

>Resent doing it because I don't like doing it
>Have no choice because boss/teacher/parent/drill sergeant said to
>Keep doing it because you have to
>Realize a while later that you've gotten good at it and have gotten somewhere with it

Your problem might be that you have the option to quit, so you do. Razz Accountability to other people is the primary thing that gets most folks over that initial "this sucks I hate it" hurdle; is there any way you could try out some system where you HAVE TO do some thing that improves your health/employability/finances/whatever?

Like, you tell someone you're going to show up to volunteer to do data entry for two hours on Tuesday mornings. They'll be expecting you. That expectation may be the only thing that gets your ass on the bus every Tuesday, and you may mentally be kicking and screaming the whole way, but a) you will be building work experience, and that never ever hurts, b) you will be proving to yourself that you CAN do a thing you set out to do, and c) you will be strengthening the prosocial parts of your brain that don't want to let other humans down, and those are important brain-parts if you want to go out into the world.


I'm not a positive thinker, I don't think "how can this go right" and then expect it to happen :p
No, the cynical pragmatist way is to think "how can this go right and also how can it go wrong" and game out a zillion little tweaks to the situation to maximize the odds of it going somewhat right because your icy black heart knows how shit the odds are if you don't do those tweaks. Razz


It would probably magically dissipate the feeling at least :/
It might magically dissipate the feeling of "oh shit I haven't done XYZ." It also magically generates lots of other feelings of many kinds regarding the things you have done. No magic bullet for No Bad Feelings. Wink
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Post by bomaye Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:44 pm

Werel wrote:
On the "my body kind of sucks now" front, I think you said you'd tried using a stationary bike or similar while watching TV and it paid off some dopamine dividends. Would getting your body closer to pickup sports condition be a thing that feels worthwhile, or feel like progress in itself (because physical milestones like running time or heart rate are pretty quantifiable, and being more fit is always a good thing)? Plus, it could get you back in condition to do a thing you used to like, and one which is a pretty low-stakes low-conversation way to get back in the swing of interacting with strangers. Assuming there's anybody in your town to play pickup sports with who's not a total douche, that is. Razz (Fuck that guy.)

Nah, I don't want to do sports anymore or do the maintenance to keep myself in enough shape to do them. I took up jogging a few years ago and it eventually just became boring as fuck and the gains hit that wall of "you have to go hard for tiny gains now" and it's like "This is an hour of my life and I could be doing something else."


Yes

brb, gonna Break Bad

bomaye wrote:
Suspect What. Where are these people. Show me one.

Actually you kind of have a "get out of failing anything free" card. Not that it wouldn't come with bad feels or anything like that, but that's all you're kind of risking when you do anything.

bomaye wrote:
Here's an actual difference between you and lots of other people, I think: for most people it's like

>Resent doing it because I don't like doing it
>Have no choice because boss/teacher/parent/drill sergeant said to
>Keep doing it because you have to
>Realize a while later that you've gotten good at it and have gotten somewhere with it

Your problem might be that you have the option to quit, so you do. Razz Accountability to other people is the primary thing that gets most folks over that initial "this sucks I hate it" hurdle; is there any way you could try out some system where you HAVE TO do some thing that improves your health/employability/finances/whatever?

Like, you tell someone you're going to show up to volunteer to do data entry for two hours on Tuesday mornings. They'll be expecting you. That expectation may be the only thing that gets your ass on the bus every Tuesday, and you may mentally be kicking and screaming the whole way, but a) you will be building work experience, and that never ever hurts, b) you will be proving to yourself that you CAN do a thing you set out to do, and c) you will be strengthening the prosocial parts of your brain that don't want to let other humans down, and those are important brain-parts if you want to go out into the world.

I have been disappointed or disillusioned with other people so much over the last 10ish years that there is no way I'll ever feel accountable to another human being in that way. Job-wise, social-wise, you're always replaceable. Volunteer stuff, it would suck if you made the promise and didn't show up, but it's not like they're saints either.


No, the cynical pragmatist way is to think "how can this go right and also how can it go wrong" and game out a zillion little tweaks to the situation to maximize the odds of it going somewhat right because your icy black heart knows how shit the odds are if you don't do those tweaks. Razz

Time to fake it until I make it Grin


It might magically dissipate the feeling of "oh shit I haven't done XYZ." It also magically generates lots of other feelings of many kinds regarding the things you have done. No magic bullet for No Bad Feelings. Wink

But magic bullet to shoot away social stigmas or the-things-that-other-people-automatically-expect-of-you-to-get-anywhere
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Post by Werel Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:17 pm

bomaye wrote:brb, gonna Break Bad
Protip, you want the pink rocks

bomaye wrote:Actually you kind of have a "get out of failing anything free" card. Not that it wouldn't come with bad feels or anything like that, but that's all you're kind of risking when you do anything.
You mean me personally, or the generic you? confused

bomaye wrote:I have been disappointed or disillusioned with other people so much over the last 10ish years that there is no way I'll ever feel accountable to another human being in that way. Job-wise, social-wise, you're always replaceable. Volunteer stuff, it would suck if you made the promise and didn't show up, but it's not like they're saints either.
Hm... I think there's a difference between being irreplaceable and being accountable (few people are the former, lots of people manage to be the latter).

I also think that if you still feel shame as a result of other people's judgment, e.g. if it still stings when people say "bad job fuckface," you're capable of putting it to use--would avoiding shame from a specific failure (say, not showing up to volunteer for all those unsaintly jerks) be motivating, in a way that feeling ashamed about huge overarching Mega Life Failure stuff isn't? That's what accountability is for, turning shame into a thing that makes you act right instead of a thing that just eats you alive for no reason. Wink

bomaye wrote:But magic bullet to shoot away social stigmas or the-things-that-other-people-automatically-expect-of-you-to-get-anywhere
Please give me a large stockpile of these magic bullets. They sound great. They are also not real. Razz
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Post by bomaye Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:24 am

Werel wrote:
Protip, you want the pink rocks

Stay out of my territory B|


You mean me personally, or the generic you? confused

You specifically


Hm... I think there's a difference between being irreplaceable and being accountable (few people are the former, lots of people manage to be the latter).

I also think that if you still feel shame as a result of other people's judgment, e.g. if it still stings when people say "bad job fuckface," you're capable of putting it to use--would avoiding shame from a specific failure (say, not showing up to volunteer for all those unsaintly jerks) be motivating, in a way that feeling ashamed about huge overarching Mega Life Failure stuff isn't? That's what accountability is for, turning shame into a thing that makes you act right instead of a thing that just eats you alive for no reason. Wink

That's kind of not all-encompassing :/


Please give me a large stockpile of these magic bullets. They sound great. They are also not real. Razz

Will do :p
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Post by Werel Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:05 am

bomaye wrote:You specifically
scratch Well, I guess the more relevant question is not whether I agree with you, but what makes you say that and whether/how you can secure similar fallbacks for yourself.
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Post by bomaye Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:46 am

Werel wrote:
scratch Well, I guess the more relevant question is not whether I agree with you, but what makes you say that and whether/how you can secure similar fallbacks for yourself.

$$$
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Post by Werel Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:47 pm

Haha, I actually had typed out "unless you just meant 'the choice to be born upper middle class'" but figured I'd give you the benefit of the doubt. Laughing

Aside from the fact that lucky birth is not enough to make anybody failproof, as evidenced by the tons of total flaming implosions among my private-school peers (and my own bleak financial future resulting from a series of low-money life choices), it's also not a thing you get to choose--there's no One Right Choice to be born to parents with more money, or be born a privileged race, or tall with a good metabolism, or in a wealthy country (good choice on most of those! Razz). So if the question is whether a single choice can make or break your future, the answer is proooobably not, unless the choice is "never work towards future ever." Which goes back to Enail's very wise wisdom of "just do something, then build on that something."
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Post by bomaye Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:58 pm

Yeah, but aren't they bail-out?
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Post by Werel Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:12 pm

Who, the total flaming implosions? Nah, your rich parents can't bail you out of being dead from an OD and/or DUI. Wealth gets you a long way in America, but not that far. Wink

Or did you mean someone/something else? Either way, it's not really a thing that's useful to your situation, unless you're secretly sitting on the prospect of some enormous inheritance. Razz
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Post by bomaye Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:19 pm

Werel wrote:Who, the total flaming implosions? Nah, your rich parents can't bail you out of being dead from an OD and/or DUI. Wealth gets you a long way in America, but not that far. Wink

This is true, but also like, that's the extreme end of things.

(Edit: Actually, affluenza became a thing too, but I'm not sure you're actually in that class Laughing )


Or did you mean someone/something else? Either way, it's not really a thing that's useful to your situation, unless you're secretly sitting on the prospect of some enormous inheritance. Razz

I mean that like, say you go to uni, and flame out in whatever it is you're doing (please don't, it sounds like you're already really far along in it), what's the most likely thing to happen?

"Oh god, I can't make rent this month and I'm going to get evicted."

etc etc
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Post by Werel Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:57 pm

Guess it's not derailing since you're asking, so if I totally blew it in my grad program, I'd just find myself in a few thousand dollars' more debt with nothing to show for it. Whether I finish this degree or not, the future looks about the same: hope and pray I can find a white-collar job on the mainland which pays enough to cover rent and pay off my credit cards, and if I'm really lucky, save for retirement.

My security blanket, and the fallbacks of wealth I think you're thinking about, have more to do with a slow accumulation of benefits and privileges rather than a direct application of money to problems in realtime: I would be falling back on things which I accrued over a lifetime of economic privilege, like knowing how to interact with high-SES people (and having many in my social networks), being well-educated, having white-collar job experience (which I got in large part through knowing how to interact with high-SES people and being educated), etc. It's a bunch of layers built on layers of advantages.

The point of this isn't to say "you didn't start out with all these advantages so you're fucked," it's to say "there's no one choice that gets people to Wealth Advantage status." It's all about building on what you have, accruing layer after layer of whatever advantages you can cobble together. It certainly helps if you start with a shitload of privilege to build on, but it's still the same basic idea: make a bunch of choices as best you can from the ones available to you.
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Post by reboot Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:13 pm

Werel wrote:....

The point of this isn't to say "you didn't start out with all these advantages so you're fucked," it's to say "there's no one choice that gets people to Wealth Advantage status." It's all about building on what you have, accruing layer after layer of whatever advantages you can cobble together. It certainly helps if you start with a shitload of privilege to build on, but it's still the same basic idea: make a bunch of choices as best you can from the ones available to you.

I can attest that you can accumulate some wealth advantage without being born to it through the choices you make and the risks you take. I did almost everything Werel is doing without a safety net (I stopped at a masters degree). Coming from money helps a lot, but it is not required
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Post by bomaye Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:21 pm

@Werel

It's a soft landing. You're never going to be completely poor and homeless unless it's either by choice or your parents decide that you should be poor and homeless for awhile. You may well struggle at things, feel bad if you happen to fail at things (please don't), and etc etc, but ultimately there's not a lot of real-world type pressure to not-fail, because you're going to land safely no matter what. You can afford to fail because then you can just go try something else, no biggie.

reboot wrote:
I can attest that you can accumulate some wealth advantage without being born to it through the choices you make and the risks you take. I did almost everything Werel is doing without a safety net (I stopped at a masters degree). Coming from money helps a lot, but it is not required

Aight, what if you failed? You took your degrees and ultimately could not finish them for whatever reason. You're now in a lot of debt, have to pay it off somehow, have to live somewhere, probably stare at a wall for entertainment because you can't afford anything else. What do
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Post by bomaye Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:22 pm

Werel wrote:Guess it's not derailing since you're asking,

ALSO

I want to say

I give 100% permission to derail my threads if it starts an interesting conversation
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Post by Werel Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:15 pm

bomaye wrote:@Werel

It's a soft landing. You're never going to be completely poor and homeless unless it's either by choice or your parents decide that you should be poor and homeless for awhile. You may well struggle at things, feel bad if you happen to fail at things (please don't), and etc etc, but ultimately there's not a lot of real-world type pressure to not-fail, because you're going to land safely no matter what. You can afford to fail because then you can just go try something else, no biggie.
Welllll, don't overestimate just how soft a landing I have. Homeless is unlikely, yeah, until every member of my family is dead or also homeless. Razz But as far as pressure to not-fail, very few people are in a financial position where failure has no consequences, aka "safe landing no matter what." Going full-on derail because maybe the nitty-gritty of other people's financial situations are interesting/useful to you:

here's the deal:

Anyway, dunno if that's useful, but you should be aware that pretty much everybody else is walking the tightrope all the time; they've just had longer to get used to the vertigo. People manage this shit, somehow, and so can you.
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