Dating after a bad relationship [pseudo-rant]

[Glides]

So this is going to sound kind of odd but it's something I've been thinking of lately almost as a way to pass the time, solving an equation you've never actually solved before: how do you date when you don't trust anyone? Literally no one.

My last relationship, still the only major serious relationship I've ever had, was with someone who turned out to be lying in a lot of fundamental ways to get me to like her, when I would've liked her all the same if she'd been honest. The theory among the few friends I've told is that said person suffered from severe BPD and was conforming her personality around my own in order to try and appear more appealing to me because of a massive fear of abandonment. Since I'm worried I have BPD myself (it's too expensive to get a diagnosis), and that I largely tried to do the same thing (and this is why I have this constant feeling of being like a chameleon but that's a whole other can of worms), that our relationship eventually splintered into pieces. Long story short, she cheated on me twice, once during and once right before we had officially broken up for good, because she was convinced that I was cheating on her.

MAJOR TRIGGER WARNING I really feel like I have to say this as well, but we had hooked up again after breaking up and it wasn't, shall we say, consensual on her end and what she pressured and forced me into doing because I "owed" her. That hasn't helped either, especially for a person who already alternates between craving touch and human contact but also being terrified of it.

Here's where this has caused problems: I had only had one partner before her, and said partner had initiated basically everything, and I met this person via Tinder and I met my ex via Reddit and both times they more or less initiated everything and seemed to gravitate to my general shyness and I don't want to keep on relying on that, because both times they were people who took advantage of me in some way.

Now I'm back to the familiar setting, which is being completely invisible to people in a romantic or sexual context. For a while, I assumed it was because I was ugly (in reality, I'm quite plain-looking, so no one is repulsed by me and no one is interested either). The best compliment I've ever gotten was "you're not bad looking." The underlying issue, is, of course, the copious amounts of self-loathing pouring from every vein that keeps people from wanting to get close unless they are similarly fucked in the head as well and don't notice it or don't care. That's the trap, that's the equation I keep trying to figure out. I'm doing it now mainly to distract myself from everything else weighing down, having another relationship just won't be feasible for who knows how long, and the previous one was really awful for my mental health because she demanded so much of my time, and barely left me alone, and I'd rather be lonely and have my peace and quiet than having a person even more self-hating and insecure than me demand all of my time so I could constantly validate her.

One problem that she made worse was that I have an incredibly difficult time doing anything sexual because of my background and past trauma I was never really acknowledging, and she definitely made it worse considering how disrespectful she was over it. That's really ironic if you already know me (so just Enail and Werel then), because back in the day I was obsessed over getting laid, and then once I did I discovered that it was impossible for me to truly enjoy it because I'd been so traumatized as a kid.

So that's obviously a problem. It's not one she knew how to solve. I have a sex drive, obviously, but the problem is that I can't do anything without triggering myself, so this means that any casual hookup or one night stand or FWB situation, assuming anyone wanted to, is completely out of the question. Wouldn't you get annoyed if (and we're pretending I'm better with people than I actually am for this) your potential partner suddenly seizes up and has a panic attack and now you can't have sex?

It also potentially ruins any future relationship because all the trust issues I already had are supercharged now thanks to the last disastrous relationship I was in. I've been addressing this in therapy but there's really only so much a therapist can do about this particular issue. I know I'm not asexual, that's not the problem. As absolutely lovely as it would be to have my sex drive and any romantic feelings for anyone completely taken out of me like the cancer they feel like, that's just not possible.

For reference, I was at a party a couple months ago and a friend of mine did a thing he does sometimes called "hyping Glides up in ways that aren't true." Essentially, he noticed I was interested in a particular girl who was there, found out she was single, and proceeded to tell her when I wasn't there that I was a bunch of things I wasn't, that I was a lot better in the bedroom than I actually am, and that certain parts of my body are far larger than average and that I know how to use them far better. None of which is true. I try my best to be attentive and communicative and all that jazz but I'm not freaking Casanova.

So what happened? She began to blatantly hit on me and I responded to this by drinking myself to the point of unconsciousness. Literally.

So that's the problem. My anxiety and self-hatred and trauma and aversion to touch (while also craving it) has made sure that I'm a complete and total mental mess at all times. I don't expect a solution, this is mainly a rant. There's a lot going on.

I kinda wish I was a virgin again, which sounds so unlike anything I would've said a few years ago, but here we are. I don't know why I hyped this up so much to myself.

[Enail]

So, so sorry your ex did that to you, that's awful.  That's a really harmful thing to have happen, it's okay to be having a hard time with it and to need time to recover, from that and from past traumas. Lots of people have a hard time with touch and/or with sex, and there are lots of people who can be patient and kind when their partner is dealing with that.

I wonder if, if or when you feel like getting into it again, it might work better for you to try and take it slow and keep things more casual - not in the sense of hookups rather than relationships, but in the sense of getting closer and more serious gradually instead of getting into something intense right from the start. It might be easier to avoid unsafe partners or ones that trigger your issues if you're just slowly getting to know each other rather than looking for total love and connection, and it would give you more of a chance to screen for people who will be understanding about your discomfort with touch and trauma around sex.

[Hielario]

Listen to me. I've been in the exact situation you worry about. An incredibly promising date and hookup went south because the other person had anxiety issues and they flared so hard she got physically ill when the date was still starting and had to go back to her place.

And yes, that part was a bit annoying. But do you know what made it REALLY ANNOYING? The fact that this person decided that her panic attack at a meet-and-fuck meant she had to renounce any sort of further interaction in the future. Even if it was with someone (me) who understood that she had issues, and that they were probably augmented by thee circunstances of our first meeting, and was willing to try again some other day in better circunstances or shelve the physical stuff until we knew each other better...

That was the thing that really annoyed me, treating her issues like an absolute impossibility and running away, instead of trying to figure out if something could be done about it.

Do you understand what I mean? Having someone back down once because they overshot their ability to do certain things is a bit annoying, but it's not an "Out of my sight and never talk to me again!" level of annoyance, at least for reasonable people. Sorry, I'm no good talking about this stuff in english.

Also, I do not know much about them, but that sounds like the sort of thing those "sexual therapists" i hear about in american sites could help with?

[Glides]

Listen to me. I've been in the exact situation you worry about. An incredibly promising date and hookup went south because the other person had anxiety issues and they flared so hard she got physically ill when the date was still starting and had to go back to her place.

And yes, that part was a bit annoying. But do you know what made it REALLY ANNOYING? The fact that this person decided that her panic attack at a meet-and-fuck meant she had to renounce any sort of further interaction in the future. Even if it was with someone (me) who understood that she had issues, and that they were probably augmented by thee circunstances of our first meeting, and was willing to try again some other day in better circunstances or shelve the physical stuff until we knew each other better...

That was the thing that really annoyed me, treating her issues like an absolute impossibility and running away, instead of trying to figure out if something could be done about it.

Do you understand what I mean? Having someone back down once because they overshot their ability to do certain things is a bit annoying, but it's not an "Out of my sight and never talk to me again!" level of annoyance, at least for reasonable people. Sorry, I'm no good talking about this stuff in english.

Also, I do not know much about them, but that sounds like the sort of thing those "sexual therapists" i hear about in american sites could help with?

I'm going to roll the dice on this one and assume the point of this wasn't to make fun of me, because too often I've snapped at people who I thought were insulting me and if I go with my gut this time, I'll start a really pointless argument that neither of us will like. So in the interest of saving both of us a lot of time, I'll assume this was meant to be helpful, which it probably was anyway, but I tend to see the worst in people so I'm just clarifying all that.

I actually did do the exact thing this girl did, on another occasion. Not at a meet-and-fuck though, I've never been to one of those. Most people have hookup stories, I have "sabotaged a potential relationship/hookup in a really spectacular way" stories. I can share some if you like.

Historically, in my world people aren't that particularly patient with other people's problems. People are, at their core, selfish. This person only had an interest in me because I was falsely advertised to them by a well-meaning friend. She was promised an experience that she wasn't going to get if I hadn't gotten anxious. This has happened a lot involving this well-meaning friend repeatedly lying to women about these details to get them interested in me. Every time he assumes that this'll be the time I won't have a panic attack and ruin everything. For the longest time, I directed the blame outwards, because I didn't want to take responsibility for my own failings as a person. I'm trying to do that now.

I think that's the big difference between me and this girl you met at the meet-and-fuck. I didn't actually physically show any signs of panic, either, I literally just drank from a bottle of Blue Azul until I passed the fuck out and got physically dragged back into the house because people were worried I'd gotten alcohol poisoning.

The entire interaction:

*walks up to me immediately after I spot my friend whispering in her ear, pointing in my direction repeatedly, and her blushing red*

Her: so do you like to dance?

Me: I don't dance well.

Her: I don't care, I want to dance with you *puts hand on my leg*

Me: One second.

And then I proceeded to leave and then down the bottle. And here we are.

[Hielario]

Yeah, for the record, I'm not making fun of you (Also, don't worry, I'm not angry about the assumption.).

Also, yeah, I know not everybody is gonna be as patient as me. They aren't as nice, nor as desperate as me. I was just trying to illustrate that you were worrying a little too much about how people would react to your issues getting in the way of things.

For the record too, i seem to have misunderstood what "meet and fuck" means. Is it some sort of event? I thought it was, like, meeting one-on-one in a public place and having a little chat or date before going directly to the shagging. It's rare among straight women, but this girl was mega-eager before her anxiety started flaring.

But I also think it would be good to have a serious conversation with that friend who insists in acting as your personal hype man. Maybe try to find something that you actually would like to have him say instead of weird lies. Like, you ain't hung, sure, but I'm pretty sure you said once you seemed to be good at eating muff.

[Enail]

Seconding that you can tell your friend to tone it down, I'm sure he means well but that's really annoying and stress-inducing!

[Hielario]

I just had a weird idea. Glides, does the idea of paying a sex worker trigger your self-hate?

[Glides]

I just had a weird idea. Glides, does the idea of paying a sex worker trigger your self-hate?

1. probably.

2. I'm really worried that it would be someone who's being forced into it. Support for sex workers and all that, for sure, but I dunno how to tell between those who do it for themselves and those who are forced to.

OK, so I'm diverting the conversation to address something else since it still applies to this topic, here's the context:

I made a friend when I started dual enrollment at the tender age of 15. I was a socially awkward nerdy kid, my folks were obsessive with my education, and I was already so isolated that I'd begun to slip down the path to nearly becoming a whole-ass incel (when I was on the original forum was me at my incel-iest, and it was so cringey).

She was a first-year college student and I was a sophomore in high school. I was 15, she was 18. Because the class was for teaching people how to use Microsoft Word, everyone else was in their forties and so she gravitated towards me despite us being polar opposites. We were both taking it as the easiest elective possible.

Naturally, I was immediately smitten.

Early on, she'd figured out I'd developed a crush and thought it was adorable and so a lot of our friendship was her teasing me about it and trying to get me to blush, and I just enjoyed someone paying attention to me. I don't think she was manipulative, per se, because she was incredibly supportive during a time where I didn't really have anyone else to talk to. With context, despite me believing that her being extroverted and very pretty meant that she must be incredibly social, she was actually very isolated herself. Her parents were really New Agey (even more awkward was discovering months later that our parents were actually acquaintances, and that our dads went to college together) and she was homeschooled her entire life. Very odd set of circumstances.

We stopped talking for a while after that class, since I'd been too chicken to ask for her number. What happened in the interim: she met and got pregnant by a guy, they got married, and then she had a child and had to juggle school and being a mother.

A few years later, we start talking again, now all of this has happened, and we continue being friends and I squelch the crush as far down as it can possibly go because she's a married mother now and that just isn't right. Her husband is nice enough, as far as I can tell, even if his friends are a little creepy and he seems perpetually out of it.

And that goes on for years, and I have depressive episodes every so often throughout my own college experience, and she more or less witnesses me self-destruct in real time. Paraphrasing her, she wishes that I would allow her to be closer to me because I'm suffering a lot and she wants to help, because that's who she is as a person.

At this point, any romantic interest in her is gone. I've known her long enough to know that even though I'm very attracted to her still, and even though she's overall a wonderful person who has been dealt a really bad hand, and to her credit is a very responsible mother, we would be very incompatible as partners. I don't want kids and have been very publicly vocal about this in my life, and that's really the main thing. I enjoy emotional distance, I enjoy keeping people at arm's length, she clearly does not want that. It's a hypothetical, and it comes out that way. At some point she moves out of state for a new job and we stop talking again for a while. She has another two children.

A month ago she suddenly contacts me out of the blue to tell me that she and her husband are getting a divorce. She doesn't explain all the details, but I can tell even from what little she's saying that things got really messy, that Hubby has been doing some very bad things, and now she has to move back in order to get away from him.

So we start talking again, and I decide the least I can do after all she's done for me is to be there and listen. So I do so, and this goes on for a few weeks, and she says lots of things she doesn't want me to tell anyone else, and cries a lot, and it's honestly a lot. I let my typical self-hating bullshit slide for a little while so she doesn't have to do anything for me.

Then, randomly, two days ago, she asks to see me because she doesn't want to be left alone. She suggests going to a bar, I say why the hell not, even though I'm not supposed to be drinking alcohol but my doctor is an idiot and doesn't know human bodies like me. We go, promise not to drink too much, and proceed to get piss-drunk and spend way too much on shots.

We rant and rave about everything. I admit my history of suicide attempts and how I think about it almost every day, she complains about all the really awful things that have happened to her. We commiserate, we feel awful, we laugh hysterically at the absurdity of it all.

Somewhere along the way, my attraction to her is finally openly addressed. I have drank enough to the point where memories aren't entirely coherent. My self-destructive tendencies don't want me to think or feel anything. She admits that she knows that I've always found her attractive, I insist that it doesn't get in the way of our friendship. I really do mean this, I am perfectly content with being her friend. We've gotten pretty close, it's nice to have someone to talk to.

We leave the bar. I think the conversation gets flirtatious. My normal anxiety over intimacy has been dampened thanks to the drink. We wander around for a while, lay on some fake grass nearby. We wander around some more, talking about god knows what. At some point she asks why I haven't kissed her yet and I admit that a) I'm a coward and b) I don't know if it's the best idea.

Two minutes later, I somehow get brave enough to go for it. This goes on a while.

Anyway, story's over there. We didn't sleep together, which is probably for the best.

Now, here's the problem that has emerged, which is to say, every goddamn problem that's already there. I get anxious, especially involving intimacy. Even with how drunk I was it was still very noticeable. It's even worse now that I'm sober and two days have gone by. 15 year old me would wonder why the hell I'm so scared, 23 year old me knows that trauma 15-year-old me hasn't experienced yet, not to mention various crippling feelings of self-doubt and self-loathing gets in the way of that. A part of me doesn't know how to reconcile any of the contradictions. I don't plan on dating her, and she's not even remotely interested in dating me, so that sounds optimal. 15 year old me would be so stoked that I somehow kissed a girl I've had a crush on for eight years, and that she apparently wanted to as well. 23 year old me doesn't know how to convey that less as bragging and more as "oh god I really can't even kiss another person without flipping the fuck out."

Just to show exactly what I mean, things devolved to the point where she was holding me in the car, me nearly in tears, both of us still plastered, and her whispering into my ear something along the lines of "please don't kill yourself, I know you're in a lot of pain but please don't." I didn't even mention that at any point during that night, I'm not that dumb.

It would probably be easier if this was someone I just met and not a longtime friend I've had a crush on, who already knows me very well despite all efforts to keep that from happening. I had enough sense to warn her about how emotionally distant I am and how I run away from intimacy, to which she replied "you think I don't know that?"

So the issue isn't really whether or not I think I'm in love with this person, of course I'm not. Neither of us are. I don't even really believe in romantic love. But the part that scares me is if I pretend there's someone out there who's literally perfect for me (not real, I know, I'm just making a point) and I feel even more attraction and emotional closeness to this person than I do for her, I mean I'm going to literally fall to pieces.

This is the guy who nearly had a freaking panic attack when this girl simply held me. I'm not a touchy feely guy, I'm as terrified by human contact as much as I want it, and it's the paradox of my goddamn life. I don't know how to reconcile this. If I end up sabotaging whatever arrangement this is, whatever, I'm basically expecting her to get pissed and cut me out for being as distant as I am, and for not knowing how to stop.

But this is gonna follow me around, and I'm not saying I'm freaking Casanova or anything, or that anyone will ever be legally blind and stupid enough to find me attractive again, but pretending that I am, I'm going to do this with everyone, even if it's not romantic or sexual. I already do this with everyone. I push everyone away, I hold them back, I hide and I cower and I run because I've been hurt too much and it then makes me so lonely but then I can't be alone but then I have to be alone.

I don't know if any of that made sense. I'm a paradox and I don't want to be a paradox anymore.

[Enail]

Honestly, this all sounds okay, it sounds good. I mean, obviously not good for you that you have to deal with that, it sounds incredibly hard and scary and painful trying to navigate intimacy when it causes you so much anxiety. But you're doing it, you let a friend get emotionally close, you acted on your attraction, you let her know where things are difficult for you, that's a lot. And it went okay, right? You were anxious, you were unsure and let her know it, you nearly had a panic attack, and it didn't ruin anything.

So maybe just take now for now? You don't have to solve the entirety of your fear of intimacy or your trauma or self-sabotage in every given moment. You don't need to pre-handle whatever panicking or falling apart you think you might do; if it happens, you can put yourself together again, and it's not the end of everything - you've seen that just now. So keep trying to be aware of what you're feeling and how you're reacting so you can look after yourself and make choices about how to act on what you're experiencing, work on tools to handle your feelings, and try to be kind, and just cross those tough bridges when you get to them. You're doing well!

[Glides]

Honestly, this all sounds okay, it sounds good. I mean, obviously not good for you that you have to deal with that, it sounds incredibly hard and scary and painful trying to navigate intimacy when it causes you so much anxiety. But you're doing it, you let a friend get emotionally close, you acted on your attraction, you let her know where things are difficult for you, that's a lot. And it went okay, right? You were anxious, you were unsure and let her know it, you nearly had a panic attack, and it didn't ruin anything.

So maybe just take now for now? You don't have to solve the entirety of your fear of intimacy or your trauma or self-sabotage in every given moment. You don't need to pre-handle whatever panicking or falling apart you think you might do; if it happens, you can put yourself together again, and it's not the end of everything - you've seen that just now. So keep trying to be aware of what you're feeling and how you're reacting so you can look after yourself and make choices about how to act on what you're experiencing, work on tools to handle your feelings, and try to be kind, and just cross those tough bridges when you get to them. You're doing well!

I mean, sort of?

I saw her again on Sunday, and we hooked up again, and since I was sober the anxiety hit me far worse than it did the last time, and she got extremely confused and just wanted to know everything about why intimacy scared me so much. I told her about being raped, I told her about how the previous relationships escalated it without demonizing my exes (because I know that's the ultimate red flag), I tried to explain as best she could. She seemed to interpret it as "OK, now he's told me why he's scared. Now he won't be scared anymore." And it killed the mood, big time, she was visibly frustrated, even though she was clearly trying her best to be understanding. I mean, I can't blame her, it's not especially sexy when the other person can't go more than a couple minutes without beginning to hyperventilate.

The intrusive thoughts kicked in the worst possible way. Did I get her pregnant, despite us not even having sex? And then I imagine all the really convoluted ways I could impregnate her despite not having sex with her. Didn't me and my ex make a deal to tell each other whenever we were with someone else? Sure, but we broke up in April and it's not safe for my mental health to talk to her.

I just felt so much overwhelming guilt and shame and self-hatred for "betraying" her, I felt a really distinct sense of loyalty to her despite us literally being broken up! I didn't even do anything wrong! I'm not even allowed to enjoy myself! And I know it's really frustrating for my friend because she wants to have some fun now that she's separated from her husband, and hey a longtime friend is a better choice then some random, I guess? And she can't even do that because said friend is a highly traumatized anxious wreck. Although I think it did eventually click in her head why I've had so little experience, she'd spent most of our friendship openly asking why I was so shy around people I was attracted to and why I didn't date nearly as often as I "could be dating."

I remember all those cringey posts where I would proudly and defiantly insist that once I had sex that everything would be magically fixed, that another person would be showing that I was worthy of existence, that people finding me attractive was the ultimate measure of my value. And all of the goddamn people here on the old forum would tell me off and insist that just wasn't true, and I don't know why I didn't take their advice. It's really painful to want intimacy and be physically terrified of it at the exact same time. It just means you're either anxious about being touched because in your mind alarm bells are ringing and something primal is screaming "YOU'RE BEING HURT TOUCH EQUALS HURT PAIN TORTURE ALL YOUR ORGANS GETTING RIPPED OUT" or you're alone and the same part of yourself is screaming "NEVER BEING TOUCHED AGAIN NO ONE LOVES YOU NO ONE WOULD NOTICE IF YOU DIED" and it's turned up to 11 and Spinal Tap is playing too loud in your ear.

This is what drove away both exes, because both of them took this as a personal affront, that this only meant that I didn't trust THEM and I didn't love THEM, and let's face it, all involved were deeply emotionally immature at the time (and still are, in my case). We were all deeply insecure and self-hating people, and couldn't conquer our demons.

The only difference is that my friend is a bit more understanding of all this, enough to the point where she's at least not shaming me for it. I still feel like this is going to ruin the friendship because at some point she's going to get really pissed off that I can't provide what she needs from me.

I don't know anyone else with this particular kind of fear. I know plenty of anxious people but not one of them have this kind. The second they like someone, they don't feel like this. And like I said before, I worry that I'll always feel like this. I feel like it'll drive me insane. The only major plus to all of this is that the last few days have ironically completely destroyed my crush on my friend. I had placed her on a pedestal like I'd placed so many other people, and she's not there anymore. She's a deeply flawed and deeply impulsive person, and a deeply miserable one at that. I don't think she's a bad person. But a part of me feels dumb for elevating her so much when I first met her. I mean, of course I did, I was raised religious and the Madonna Whore Complex is pervasive.

I don't even know myself anymore. I feel like I've had to do everything that most people have had to do as kids as far as discovering their own identities. Even my friend has a very concrete idea of who she is and what she's looking for, and I'm completely lost in the ether, feeling so far behind everyone else because I don't know anything about myself or what I like or what I'm like because I spent so long tailoring myself to fit in like a chameleon. So I think this is why me being so anxious about intimacy is such a shock to her, because I've spent our entire friendship obviously not telling her that, and tailoring my personality to every person I meet so everyone will like me. I'm seeing the effects of this the more overtly I stop mimicking people, the more people who cut me out of their lives, and in most cases it's not even because they're assholes or anything, they just like certain things and I'm not acting like those things anymore. I don't talk to a lot of people now and I don't feel accepted as myself in most places. I don't even feel accepted as myself by my friend, as much as I think she'd insist that she does. But I don't think that's true. She made a lot of awkward jokes about how she'd never hooked up with a Jew before or whether or not this was "kosher." At the time, I dismissed it because despite the anxiety I was just happy that someone wanted me, but now I'm not really sure what to think.

I'm just really tired of being afraid and running away. I haven't texted her since yesterday, and before we'd sometimes go weeks without talking but now I worry she's gonna act like my ex and throw a fit if I don't text her every five minutes because if I don't text for five minutes that must mean I hate her guts and that I want to break up with her.

I just feel very alone. I'm trying to say "feel" instead of saying I "am" something. I feel alone as opposed to I am alone.

*sigh*

[Enail]

Glides, as hard as this is, you're doing great!

I want to underline that you don't owe it to her to give her what she's looking for; even if that means things don't work out between you, that doesn't mean you've wronged her or done anything she should be mad about. Your wellbeing is more important than providing your partner with the sexual experience they want, and you're right to prioritize that; as long as you're respecting her boundaries as well, and trying to be kind and to communicate what's going on for you, you're doing it right. Of course sometimes people get mad about things anyway, but that still wouldn't mean you'd done something to deserve it, and if she's a kind and thoughtful person, which it sounds like she is, she'll be able to handle her frustration at the difficulty/potential incompatibility without blaming you or taking it out on you.

Not my field of expertise, but have you talked about birth control and accidental pregnancy plans with her? If you're anxious about it, it seems like it'd be good to know where things stand just in case.

I'm sorry you're carrying around so much guilt about your ex. If it helps any, I think any agreements like that are automatically and totally voided if they treat you in such a way that it would be harmful to you to fulfill it - you're not betraying her, she already tore up the contract.

I've known some people with trauma and anxiety about being touched, and it did lessen a lot with time and mental health care and partners who understand it's not about them. The ones I still know enough to say, it does continue to affect them, but it's not so overwhelming and huge an issue as it was. They do have to actively choose partners who are patient and understanding, who don't take it as a judgement or an affront to them, and who are okay with them setting the pace. People like that do exist.

[Hielario]

What Enail said! It's not your fault that there are things you can't do! Be honest with people, and if they give you shit for having legitimate issues (which you're actively trying to solve) , send them to hell!

Also, asking if someone is on the pill before/during/after doing something sexy is a very normal question.

About your ex...maybe you can send her an email or something? Transmitting the messafe in a way that allows you not have a direct conversation with her would still fulfill the content of your promise and probably would get that off your chest. Although you probably would have to unplug your phone for a couple of days.

I'd recommend you check on your friend if you still haven't done it, to calm your nerves. I know how it is to be constantly convinced that people hate you the moment they stop talking. Giving some space and then asking seems to help.

[Glides]

OK so I'm going to address this in the health section of this forum, but the chick called me a couple times over the past couple days and I gave her really weak excuses of why I couldn't see her because the thought of seeing her terrified me so goddamn much.

I think she's pissed. And I'm not even really asking why she'd be pissed, what do you mean depressed and insecure people take everything personally?

So I called her back, she wouldn't answer. I wrote a very long text desperately trying to explain the situation (I'll go over it in more detail in the health section but TRIGGER WARNING the time I got blackout drunk was an extended suicide attempt, I don't really want to explain what I did exactly because I don't want to set anyone off, but I didn't do anything that left any lasting injuries).

But ever since that, I've been displacing the real source of my anxiety, even if it took the entire new season of Bojack Horseman to get me there. This is why my therapist thinks I've got OCD, because I get a thought and obsess over it and resort to something completely impulsive to try and soothe the pain of that constant thought. I've complained for years about not being able to control what I think, and my parents' casual dismissal of this, but I literally can't stop a thought once it's there, even if the thought is implausible and ridiculous, and it feeds back into the ridiculous amount of anxiety I feel in my daily life, which escalated significantly after the attempt.

I haven't sent the text, but it's written. I don't know if I should, or if I should trust her with that info, or if it's even worth trying to repair what I've ruined. I mean, I like her as a friend, and I'm attracted to her, but I don't think it's smart to do anything and I feel stupid for initially agreeing to even though she didn't pressure me into anything. Because all I get since then are intrusive thoughts of her being pregnant, her ex-husband killing her, her ex-husband killing me, her killing herself, him killing himself and then she kills herself, every possible bad thing, all at once, all flowing at once, and seeing her brings up my guilt because I haven't gotten over my ex, as much as I know I should and that I need to, and I can't stop missing her and I still feel like a cheating asshole.

It's all too much, all of it is too much, and I can barely pay attention to anything anymore because I'm so utterly wired. She sounded really pissed when I talked to her about an hour ago, as much as I was trying to explain and stutter out that it's my anxiety and I'm avoiding most people, she would just keep saying shit like "I'm not gonna call anymore until you do" or "well I'm sorry that I'm bothering you when I just wanted to see you" and making it about herself and it's all too goddamn much, it might make it easier for her to just view me as an asshole who screwed her and then ghosted her as opposed to what i really am, which she claims to understand but clearly doesn't.

I didn't come off as callous, I was chattering my teeth and stuttering and was about to burst into tears when she called, so you'd think if you call someone and they sound like that, they are most likely NOT OK IN THE SLIGHTEST.

I've been avoiding most people, not just her! But there's so many people in my life who take shit so personally! I can't claim to be the hero of the story but I'm not trying to intentionally hurt anyone and my reputation will be as the callous bastard who waited eight years and then hit it and quit it. Fuck why did she have to call right after I finished watching a show that always devastates me for several hours afterwards? Why do I always have to lie to evade having to talk about how I really feel? I don't want anyone getting past my defenses! Why do they have to wriggle their way inside anyway? People just project anyway, that's all she was doing, she's only into me because she knows how much her ex hated my guts because of how insecure he was! That's all this is, a revenge lay, and I'm not playing the role you wanted so now you're mad! I know I'm exaggerating a bit but it's tough to keep a level head right now with all of this!

I don't want her to see me cry, exactly two friends have seen me cry and that's two too many, those are two people who know exactly how to hurt me. The only other person was my ex and she used all of that against me, she'd compile all of my weaknesses and all the things I was ashamed or scared of and then she'd use it all against me at once and I'd be left a sobbing wreck on the ground and she'd tell me to stop being a baby! Everything was my fault and nothing felt real anymore and you think I'm stupid enough to leave you the same opening I left her? I'm not stupid! I'm many things but I'm not stupid and I won't let you hurt me like everyone else wants to! You can say whatever you want, make me the callous asshole then, make me that guy, I can't stop you! My ex told all kinds of lies about me, the only difference is she did it on purpose so I can't even blame you!

And it's all because I watched a show where the exact thing happens to one of the characters that my ex did to me, the EXACT SAME THING, and it triggered me, and you called me while I was about to break the fuck down. What role do you want me to play? Do you just want someone to commiserate and screw to spite your husband? Is that it? Is that all eight years of friendship leaves to, and getting all pissy because I can't be sexy like you wanted? Well who the fuck said I was sexy? You? You've known me for eight years!

You've never seen the person you thought you love deliberately go out, find someone else, do everything with them they promised they'd only do with you (and I'm not even referring to anything sexual, I cared less about that and more about doing all of the intimate little things we used to do, all the pet names, all the caresses and hand squeezes and cuddles, THAT is what got me and she did it specifically to smile right in my sobbing face and tell me in explicit detail how I wasn't Handsome anymore, someone else was Handsome and that Handsome was everything I wasn't, and how even in one month he'd been more of a man than I ever could, and made more money than me, because she knew bragging about sexual prowess wouldn't break me, but bragging about how replaceable I was in every other way was, and how "pretending I'm not a man" won't excuse me from anything)

Why the fuck do people demand to know so much? For the entire relationship she got so pissy about how tight lipped I was? Wanna know why? Because everything I admitted to you, you TOLD EVERYONE ELSE YOU COULD FIND JUST TO SPITE ME.

I keep doing this to myself. I keep attracting people in my life who are just as damaged as me, if not more so, who all take everything personally, and I'm doing this to myself. I'm breaking down in real time. It doesn't feel like anything will be OK. My fucking grandfather just died but I shouldn't be SAD?! Are you out of your mind?! How am I supposed to be sexy for you if I"M GRIEVING GODDAMMIT?

It's just too much. I'm feeling too much. I hate that. It's the worst part of living. Whatever invented emotions should rot.

[Hielario]

Your friend sounds awfully self-centered.

If I ever figure out a better way of ensuring those close to us don't use it to hurt us than my usual smokescreens and being prepared to hurt them back in the most brutal way, I'll tell you.

Personally, I'd grab all of this stuff you just told us and send it to her. If she gets it, good. If she doesn't, she was already angry at you, so nothing changes.

[Glides]

Your friend sounds awfully self-centered.

If I ever figure out a better way of ensuring those close to us don't use it to hurt us than my usual smokescreens and being prepared to hurt them back in the most brutal way, I'll tell you.

Personally, I'd grab all of this stuff you just told us and send it to her. If she gets it, good. If she doesn't, she was already angry at you, so nothing changes.

She ended up calling me again and the weirdest thing is that we didn't even argue about what I expected to argue about, which was the whole awkwardness that had emerged after we hooked up. We argued about my attempts to alienate people and cut them out of my life and how much it was hurting her feelings because she wanted to get dinner with me.

I've heard double speak before, I've heard nice words with the subtext of "I want something from you because I think only you can give it to me, in reality I'm projecting but I don't want to admit it."

I felt pretty good. Normally the promise of companionship would be enough to get me in line and have me play ball and just be a passive observer because at least I could be more "normal." She kept saying shit like "happiness is a choice" and "I'd rather feel every emotion intensely than push it all down the way you do." I was told to walk around in grass barefoot, and how my body is like an electrical circuit and needs access to nature in order to fully refresh itself.

But the entire crux of the conversation was how badly she wanted to get dinner with me, how lonely she was, how no one else knew how to make her feel not lonely like I do, that she'd married the wrong man when the right one was in front of her face all along. It was like something out of a romantic comedy, except with the added context of all the unhealthy behaviors sad movies promote for both men and women.

She wants a man, but I'm not a man. I didn't tell her that, because it's not her right to know.

She wasn't even really being mean, I can tell the difference between people who honestly think they're helping and feel really good about themselves for it and people who just want to lord their superiority over someone else, and she was doing the former. She wasn't trying to be malicious, I could tell that much.

Honestly my perception of her was incredibly skewed, and I'm as fucked up as she is, and honestly we have nothing in common beyond sexual chemistry, I've had only that with every person I dated instead of actively looking for someone I got along with in more ways than that.

As friends, we got along because we'd both been really lonely, our whole friendship was based off of mutual loneliness. We don't like the same things, we don't hold the same views, and that's fine! But I wish I'd known that at 15, that i don't need to keep people around just because if they're not around I'll be alone more often. That's something I've done wrong and something I need to work on, I guess.

Funny thing is that the second she said "I don't know why you'd watch a show like Bojack Horseman (it came up as a way for me to relate to my own mental illness), why would you deliberately make yourself sad like that?", I realized me and her weren't compatible in the slightest.

That show is incredibly personal to me, and though it makes me sad by association, it highlights toxic behaviors I still exhibit (even if I haven't done nearly a fraction of the fucked up shit he has), and highlights how to possibly improve, and it's very cathartic to watch. It means something to me, and even if you don't like it, I know the people in my life who care about me more, even if they themselves don't like it, won't dismiss it like that because they know what it means to me.

I'm only mistreating myself because I've gotten used to it, and no one else will, so I actively seek them out for that sense of safety and comfort, because I was taught that my "normal" is when I'm being hurt, so I seek out self-destructive experiences to feel safe.

So finally she said "OK, I want you to do this, for me. I want you to go outside and walk barefoot for half an hour, and experience the wonder of nature. And then I want you to call me back and set up dinner plans with me, because I really want to see you. I love you."

She clearly believed those last three words but she's also projecting again. I said, "OK," hung up, and proceeded to get dinner with my oldest childhood friend, who doesn't pull shit like this.

It felt good, honestly. A huge dick move, and I'll have to accept that. But it felt good to nonverbally say no.

[Enail]

Damn, Glides, that sounds really frustrating, but you handled it so, so well! Recognizing that you're not okay with how she's treating you, that she's behaving badly, without demonizing her; standing up for what you want without going on the attack or blaming yourself; identifying where the conflict is based on her behaving selfishly and when it's just a matter of incompatibility; walking away from the situation without setting everything on fire, and then going off to spend time with someone who treats you better. This was like a lesson in how to handle this situation healthily and effectively!

[Hielario]

I agree absolutely with Enail.

[Glides]

One of the nicest parts of my relationship with my ex, when she was cognizant, was telling her every time the same chipmunk showed up at the front door to sit for a while.

She named it Cheddar. It showed up today for the first time since the breakup and I broke the fuck down, apologizing to a goddamn animal through a window and telling it she wouldn't be coming around anymore.

I mean, the irony is that she never actually physically saw the fucking thing, just the pics i would send that she'd then spend a while cooing over. She was always at her happiest when she was around animals.

I didn't know breakups and grief were identical.

[Hielario]

(Erased because I'm stupid)

[Enail]

<mod> Hey, Hielario, responding to a rant or advice thread by telling someone you wish you had their problem is really unhelpful and unempathetic, and is against forum guidelines. Please stay away from this in the future. Thanks! </mod>

[Hielario]

You are right. I don't know why did I think that would raise his ego, it was a stupid idea. Guess I really shouldn't post on that sort of emotional state. I will erase it now.

[Glides]

She randomly texts asking if I'm OK. I respond saying I'm not OK.

She leaves me on read.

This is what I don't like: people flipping the fuck out when you can't be happy for their own fucking comfort.

[Hielario]

Are you still in speaking terms with her? Why?

[Glides]

I'm not, I haven't spoken with her since then. She's out of my life.

I'm single and unemployed, the fuck does she want with me? I'm a fucking bum.

[Hielario]

Ah, OK, sorry. Thought you would have blocked her number (or wouldn't answer) otherwise.

What does she want? According to my experience, someone to listen/reassure her.

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