Re: Real issues around virginity

[Enail]

Can we avoid assuming a divorced woman with kids is automatically so undesirable and desperate they can't possibly do any better than the bottom of the barrel (which is not to say I think you could only be a bottom of the barrel option, I don't, but that seems to be your framing)? Of course, there are real dating challenges for people in that group, but it's still a pretty nasty way to generalize them, and assumptions like that are a foundation for some of the problems they have with dating.

I definitely agree with DNL is very pat about virginity, applying conclusions over-broadly, and prone to talking about hopeful possibilities as certainties in general, though I think his advice in this case was correct.  And I agree with inbloomer that the attitude that you can walk away is more attractive than feeling like you have to take any chance, even if in practice you decide that the benefits are worth the costs in most situations.

Hielario, I've never seen quite that framing before, it's an interesting take! I'm glad it let you get more of a sense of autonomy to reject terrible people.

[Datelessman]

I might elaborate about this later, but this reminds me of one of the things that overrode my discomfort  with paying for sex with women. After a lifetime of feeling I had to swallow an enormous quantity of shit from women like the one in the letter for a vague possibility,  going and paying by the hour became a way to exercise at least a little bit of power/control about my own (sex) life and stop giving myself to terrible people.

Also, this is a commentary and is not aimed to convince anyone to do it.

That certainly is an interesting perspective. I never really felt that being open minded to the foibles of those I try to date was something I had to "swallow;" I saw it as a fair exchange considering what a woman had to deal with for me. It's not just virginity thing; it's a lack of a relationship experience thing. Many men are bad in bed, but a dude my age who acts like he's on his first relationship and has those growing pains gets old fast. But I do see your side of it, that it at least allows you a degree of control that did not exist before. I must say something I have never felt in any sort of potential romantic situation was "agency." I always felt like Oliver Twist with a bowl, and that can get anxious.

For me I always wondered if the "business transaction" part of it might counteract some anxiety. For some people, paying someone to sleep with them removes passion or feels exploitative or so on. But on the other hand, there is a predictable result. The "business transaction" part of it might eliminate worries like having to interpret things said in passing or so on. For instance, if I am paying for a sex worker's services and she says something flattering, I don't need to obsess about any double meaning; I know it's just a curtesy for a better tip and I an enjoy it on that level. I also know that unless I am an absolute monster, I will get laid and not have to worry about ruining it because of one bad joke, or being too boring, or so on. And as DNL states, the line between "sex with a sex worker" and "sex with a random hookup from a bar" is very thin and mostly a construct.

Can we avoid assuming a divorced woman with kids is automatically so undesirable and desperate they can't possibly do any better than the bottom of the barrel (which is not to say I think you could only be a bottom of the barrel option, I don't, but that seems to be your framing)? Of course, there are real dating challenges for people in that group, but it's still a pretty nasty way to generalize them, and assumptions like that are a foundation for some of the problems they have with dating.

I definitely agree with DNL is very pat about virginity, applying conclusions over-broadly, and prone to talking about hopeful possibilities as certainties in general, though I think his advice in this case was correct.  And I agree with inbloomer that the attitude that you can walk away is more attractive than feeling like you have to take any chance, even if in practice you decide that the benefits are worth the costs in most situations.

You are right. In retrospect I did not mean to imply that I personally felt that single women who are divorced with kids are somehow beneath me or "undesirable," but that's not how my post reads at all so you're totally on the ball for calling me out on this one.

As a kid raised by a single mom, I got to bare witness to many of her attempts to date in her 30's into her 50's and beyond and the sheer number of dudes who fled the moment they heard of or saw me was pretty staggering. One time I was about 6-7 and I came out of my room on a weekend morning and asked mom and her "dude du jour" if "I had a little brother or sister yet." Mom was amused; he was mortified.

To set the record straight, while I am sensitive to the idea of someone's child attaching to me too quickly due to my own baggage regarding my own deadbeat father, a woman having children or being divorced is absolutely not a red flag or a negative trait for me. I suppose I framed it the way I did out of a universal sense of "there being less options" as people get older, but women certainly have a harder time seeming "invisible" past a certain age than men do, and usually have to put in more effort against it.

As I said, objectively I agreed with DNL's advice, it just always strikes me when he doesn't cover the other side of things. That some people really don't find anyone. And while that in and of itself is not the worst fate to behold, it's something worth acknowledging instead of a bumper sticker slogan.

My default demeanor is usually an attempt at seeming more aloof and experienced about almost everything than I really am. I literally earn a living at it over the telephone with sales and customer service. So I maybe didn't always focus on projecting an aura that I could walk away at any time. My problem was projecting an aura that I was desirable.

[Hielario]

I might elaborate about this later, but this reminds me of one of the things that overrode my discomfort  with paying for sex with women. After a lifetime of feeling I had to swallow an enormous quantity of shit from women like the one in the letter for a vague possibility,  going and paying by the hour became a way to exercise at least a little bit of power/control about my own (sex) life and stop giving myself to terrible people.

Also, this is a commentary and is not aimed to convince anyone to do it.

That certainly is an interesting perspective. I never really felt that being open minded to the foibles of those I try to date was something I had to "swallow;" I saw it as a fair exchange considering what a woman had to deal with for me. It's not just virginity thing; it's a lack of a relationship experience thing. Many men are bad in bed, but a dude my age who acts like he's on his first relationship and has those growing pains gets old fast. But I do see your side of it, that it at least allows you a degree of control that did not exist before. I must say something I have never felt in any sort of potential romantic situation was "agency." I always felt like Oliver Twist with a bowl, and that can get anxious.

See, here's the thing...I have always been very tolerant of the foibles of others, because I have many of my own, because I know I can't affords to be picky with people, because I was raised to do so and I always took moral lessons harder than everybody else. But due to that, I've had to deal/turned a blind eye/danced around a LOT of crap like the stuff in the letter: tons of assorted prejudice , fucked-up assumptions, rudeness, overstepping of boundaries, not giving a shit about others disconfort, inconsideration, lazyness, taking people for granted...

Granted, not all at the same time from the same person, nor to that level, and not always overtly (and sometimes it's more of a general vibe I get from society) But it's kind of a mass of streams.

And I'm really done dealing with that torrent. Some time after getting out of online dating because it was destroying my self-esteem, on top of feeling I gave and gave for no result, I started feeling like, a lot of times, I had given and given to people who clearly didn't deserve it. Who didn't deserve ME. I'd think of someone, and a lot of times I would go "Good lord, what an idiot" or "jeez, maybe I shouldn't have bothered in the first place". (Sure, not every failed attempt has left that kind of mark, but those are a minority) ...and all of that for what? For the vague possibility of getting laid? Well, I just couldn't justify any more destroying my self esteem for people who will treat me like nothing and get on my nerves all day merely on the strength of hope. It's not worth it. Much less when I know they aren't extending the same kindness to me! The Hielario bank acknowledges that returns on the inversion are always risky, but is no longer giving credit without a collateral and/or proof of character. I know I have little to give, but even that little shouldn't be absolutely free.

And I KNOW for certain all women aren't like that, but most of the single ones I have encountered have behaved in those ways.

Frustration is terrible and warps the mind, but constantly dealing with nasty people to fix it is also terrible and also warps the mind . it was just as unhealthy and bad for me, since on top of the misery I was just layering more misery. And then there's the matter that it has kinda worsened my life, since I completely wasted a lot of time and energy that I could have used on something better - like keeping up with gaming, or improving my chinese-.

I had been told a lot of times that I would be better off if I focused on my career and in earning money. But I just abhorred that idea, imagining a future where I had a comfortable life but I was completely alone and untouched has always horrified me.

Even if that version of me could afford to have some modicum of pleasure once in a while.

The thing is, I ended thinking of a lot of possible futures for me, and all seemed just as terrible of worse independently of what I do.

So my original outlook ended mutating into one where If I'm going to have a miserable existence no matter what, at least I'm going to have one where I can enjoy some degree of satisfaction, and also some control about who, and what, I dedicate myself to.

As I said, objectively I agreed with DNL's advice, it just always strikes me when he doesn't cover the other side of things. That some people really don't find anyone. And while that in and of itself is not the worst fate to behold, it's something worth acknowledging instead of a bumper sticker slogan.

DNL tries to be kind and gentle to people, and sometimes that means not outright telling a desperate dude that he's better off not fucking EVER or sticking their dick in a pile of manure than going out with a woman who's that much repulsive. There's having foibles , there's being nasty and then there is being absolutely terrible. I have been desperation incarnate and I'd still try to peel any of my friends off from that woman, by force if necessary. Sure, a lot of first times are regrettable, but that one would be beyond regrettable. Christ, she sounds like one of the absolutely toxic people who surrounded me at high school. As much as I would have loved to actually start screwing at a reasonable age, the idea of losing my virginity to one of my nasty classmates sounds horrifying.

[Datelessman]

See, here's the thing...I have always been very tolerant of the foibles of others, because I have many of my own, because I know I can't affords to be picky with people, because I was raised to do so and I always took moral lessons harder than everybody else. But due to that, I've had to deal/turned a blind eye/danced around a LOT of crap like the stuff in the letter: tons of assorted prejudice , fucked-up assumptions, rudeness, overstepping of boundaries, not giving a shit about others disconfort, inconsideration, lazyness, taking people for granted...

Granted, not all at the same time from the same person, nor to that level, and not always overtly (and sometimes it's more of a general vibe I get from society) But it's kind of a mass of streams.

And I'm really done dealing with that torrent. Some time after getting out of online dating because it was destroying my self-esteem, on top of feeling I gave and gave for no result, I started feeling like, a lot of times, I had given and given to people who clearly didn't deserve it. Who didn't deserve ME. I'd think of someone,  and a lot of times I would go "Good lord, what an idiot" or "jeez, maybe I shouldn't have bothered in the first place". (Sure, not every failed attempt has left that kind of mark, but those are a minority) ...and all of that for what? For the vague possibility of getting laid?  Well, I just couldn't justify any more destroying my self esteem for people who will treat  me like nothing and get on my nerves all day merely on the strength of hope. It's not worth it.  Much less when I know they aren't extending the same kindness to me! The Hielario bank acknowledges that returns on the inversion are always risky, but is no longer giving credit without a collateral and/or proof of character. I know I have little to give, but even that little shouldn't be absolutely free.

And I KNOW for certain all women aren't like that, but most of the single ones I have encountered have behaved in those ways.

Frustration is terrible and warps the mind, but constantly dealing with nasty people to fix it is also terrible and also warps the mind . it was just as unhealthy and bad for me, since on top of the misery I was just layering more misery. And then there's the matter that it has kinda worsened my life, since I completely wasted a lot of time and energy that I could have used on something better - like keeping up with gaming, or improving my chinese-.

I had been told a lot of times that I would be better off if I focused on my career and in earning money. But I just abhorred that idea, imagining a future where I had a comfortable life but I was completely alone and untouched has always horrified me.

Even if that version of me could afford to have some modicum of pleasure once in a while.

The thing is, I ended thinking of a lot of possible futures for me, and all seemed just as terrible of worse independently of what I do.

So my original outlook  ended mutating into one where If I'm going to have a miserable existence no matter what, at least I'm going to have one where I can enjoy some degree of satisfaction, and also some control about who, and what, I dedicate myself to.

I can understand that point of view. There are a lot of dysfunctional people out there as well as "users" and after encountering a "stream" of them for so long, burnout is real. You are right that it's not healthy to have your esteem be reliant on the approval of others.

I do see how employing the services of sex workers can restore a sense of control in regards to the situation. My own opinion on that for myself has shifted with time, and I'd like to think it's because of an evolving worldview. But it's likely me being self serving, since the older I get, the more likely me ultimately employing their services myself for my "first time" becomes. Heck, if it weren't for a pandemic and having to stockpile cash in lieu of a potential eviction, I probably have enough for a "weekend in Vegas" now. The cost would roughly be similar to that of a "sexual surrogate therapist," which is different (but also kind of works in a legally murky area).

I've read at least 4 online testimonials from men who were virgins (one in his 60's even) talking about their very first time with a sex worker and it being a positive, enjoyable experience they didn't regret. One or two only regretted not doing it sooner. And it probably would be better than "allowing" a retched person to have a first time with a virgin, at least from a moral, even if not social, standpoint.

DNL tries to be kind and gentle to people, and sometimes that means not outright telling a desperate dude that he's better off not fucking EVER or sticking their dick in a pile of manure than going out with a woman who's that much repulsive. There's having foibles , there's being nasty and then there is being absolutely terrible. I have been desperation incarnate and I'd still try to peel any of my friends off from that woman, by force if necessary. Sure, a lot of first times are regrettable, but that one would be beyond regrettable. Christ, she sounds like one of the absolutely toxic people who surrounded me at high school. As much as I would have loved to actually start screwing at a reasonable age, the idea of losing my virginity to one of my nasty classmates sounds horrifying.

In fairness, DNL wasn't shy about saying the woman in that letter was a dumpster fire. I guess I just find some of his well intentioned optimism a little unnerving, and it borders on false hope. I agree that the woman in the letter may not have been an ideal choice for a sexual partner, but while the LW should keep trying, he also should realize that nothing is guaranteed. I genuinely do think everyone should seriously consider how far they are willing to go for romance and/or sex, and face that honestly. I know sometimes when I acknowledge my willingness to "compromise" about many things in that regard (not all things but many), it's a bad look for me, but it's better than acting like I'm a saint beyond all temptation.

Thankfully I didn't personally know any woman who were that conniving in my social circle. I'd met quite a few who bullied and teased me, but they were strangers; not people I "befriended" for any length of time. I can't speak for everyone, but even if I'd, say, lost my virginity at a party to one of them on a whim, I don't think it would have destroyed me. But that's water under the bridge now. It never happened.

Would I rather remain a virgin forever or "give it up" to a truly nasty woman who happened to have one thing in her favor -- her looks (at least in my eyes)? I don't know. All I know is my decision would not be as easy as DNL made it seem. I've spent too long at the other end of the tunnel, as it were. And I'd tell someone facing a similar dilemma just to make very sure they are content with their choice in the long term. Fate is fickle and we don't always get many chances. In my entire life, it boiled down to three (and exactly three) potential opportunities for, at least, more dates than I'd had or capitalizing on what I could have had from my late teens to mid 20's. I bungled all three for various reasons, and never got another chance. I assumed I would but it didn't happen. And at times that realization has been very painful. So I'd at least make it clear that life rarely offers fair choices and for someone to just take that into account, instead of just offering a "you got this, dude!" fist bump.

[Datelessman]

Friday's "ASK DNL" segment had a segment which I thought constituted a lost opportunity, which sometimes I would prefer to read rather than a few of DNL's catch phrases, as well as his continuation of a well intended belief which I feel does more harm than good.

https://www.doctornerdlove.com/should-i-give-my-ex-another-chance/

It's the second letter this time (LW2) and it is very short. "Shot Down In Flames" (SDIF) wrote in for advice in how to "get over" being dumped by his girlfriend for revealing his virginity because she claimed she "couldn't love someone if the sex wasn't good." It's very brief and free of a lot of details, and of course for all we know is some troll (or involves teenagers, who are full of hormones triggering rash decisions and needlessly blunt responses). But DNL takes it at face value since it is a potential situation, but I do feel he wasted the opportunity here. This bit hit me because, well, another topic which has come up here as well as been a favorite source of agita for older male virgins is the belief they'll be lame lovers and the fear any woman would dump them if they knew, or refuse to give them a chance.

DNL states that SDIF should get over it in part because he "dated an [a-hole]". This reaffirms his belief to consider a woman who dumps or rejects a man upon hearing he's a virgin as an "a-hole" or a "jerk" or so on. While this feels good and supportive in the short term, I don't think it's a particularly healthy or realistic prism to view it in. It is already incredibly common for men, especially men who are inexperienced or have severe issues with dating, to think of women who dump or reject them in needlessly negative terms. It's almost as bad a habit as referring to women one doesn't like romantically in demeaning terms like "fat" or "ugly" or "homely" (which is why, in case anyone has noticed, I am very careful to avoid using those terms myself). Now, this is not to deny that some women MAY BE "a-holes" or "jerks," but a simple rejection or ending of a relationship alone is not a fair reason to label someone that way. There needs to be justifiable reasons for that label (i.e. someone being needlessly manipulative or cruel). In fact, I see it as hypocritical; I feel if DNL got a letter from a dude who referred to a woman who dumped him for any reason as an "a-hole," either he would lecture him about not using insulting terms, or the forum commenters would. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, as the ancient saying goes.

Now, why would DNL go with such an idea? Because I believe that in his well intended but unrealistic worldview, he fails to realize nor convey to readers that negative opinions of older virgins are the mainstream social opinion. Considering a woman a "jerk" just because she conforms to the standard social opinion of virgins is as misguided to me as labeling her that because she enjoys all the popular songs, movies, or TV shows of the time. It's unfair, frankly; us older virgins ourselves can't shake the negative social views on our own virginity; why insult women who believe it, too? Now, as an explanation for this worldview, DNL notes he has met many women in his travels and the forum who have merrily slept with virgins and had a good time doing so. However, I think that he has so much contact with them that it skews his worldview. If I spent all my time with the five people on Earth who thought "BATMAN & ROBIN" was a masterwork of cinema, I would be astonished that elsewhere it had such a bad reputation. But those people represent a very vocal, perhaps statistically notable, yet still minority opinion on the subject.

Say I did a universal poll of straight single women and asked them if they'd sleep with a man who was a virgin despite being the same age or older than they were. And let's be extremely generous and say 40% said they would. That's great, right? 40%, or 4 out of 10, or 2 out of 5! And they would count and be worth pursuing. But they are still only 2 out of 5. There are still 60% of women who would not, or 3 out of 5. That means your odds of finding the "mainstream" women are notably greater. The point of all this is that instead of telling this dude that he was dating an "a-hole," make him aware that he merely happened to be dating someone who held the mainstream opinion of virgins, and while that still stinks, to try not to devote too much wasted emotions on that. I mean, DNL says people are allowed to have their own lines in the sand about what they're cool and not cool with, right?

In fact, even from the brief letter, while I do think the woman SDIF talks about was blunt and undiplomatic (at least from his brief summary), she at least didn't drag things out or lead him on. She told him she adhered to the general opinion of virgins, as well as her not being patient enough to wait for "sexual improvement" with more experience and dumped him over it. It does hurt, but giving her the same label we give to a Republican who fails to vote for impeachment just for holding a mainstream belief is a bit much.

And yes, the mainstream default opinion of older virgins is not good. It never has been and never will be. I think telling other virgins to accept this and work around it or thrive despite it is better advice.

Which brings me to the missed opportunity. I think this brief letter presented an excellent opportunity to suggest that older male virgins think deeply and figure out for themselves what they want more: to simply lose their virginity at the first opportunity (within reason), or to pick the absolute most supportive and patient lover ever who is willing to guide them through it with full disclosure. This does go into a "tell or don't tell" debate and DNL is pro-tell (at an appropriate time, like a third date). And this flows into the first segment, because if someone looks at society honestly and knows that negative virgin opinions are the mainstream, then revealing it is an incredibly divisive thing which is going to cause a lot of otherwise nice, otherwise cool, otherwise totally horny and down with it women to otherwise reject you and for you to remain a virgin longer. Objectively, no one really has an "expectation" to reveal their sexual history to anyone; that's a dynamic that usually punishes women. Heck, if anything, "revealing" one's own virginity might unintentionally put a woman on edge because of that; she might feel as if she is about to be judged or "slut shamed," which is a mood killer.

On the other hand, of course, if someone is absolutely willing to remain a virgin longer because they genuinely want to find someone who accepts them factually, fully, and spiritually and try to have as much of a transformative first experience as possible...that's wonderful. But they need to face that honestly and realize they have gone from dating on "hard" to "expert." They run the risk of far more "false positives" and heartache. They have chosen a far longer and more difficult path (unless they get very, very lucky, but c'mon, by definition, older male virgins are not very lucky).

DNL is always for full disclosure, but it also omits the idea that some of us actually are ashamed of the fact that we are virgins, especially in our late 30's, and talking with it with even our best friends and family members is difficult, and sometimes it is easier to just not reveal it. Or, for those people who decide they would rather lose it the first time they have the opportunity (within reason, i.e. without being a sleazebag or lying), they face that honestly, too. I, for one, am not going to potentially risk a good thing that seems to be going well by being stupid and revealing something that divisive intentionally. Besides, for an advisor who avidly insists that woman should not be men's unpaid counselors, DNL sure is a fan of revealing sources of anxiety. And the sorts of single women who are tolerant of virgins and are that loving and supportive of them in bed will still be there and still be wonderful lovers for a second or third relationship if one does find them after that "initial period." Sometimes you won't even find them without the confidence boost from getting that "first time" off your chest!

Come to think of it, I think I am starting to understand Hielario's point about the "power" of going the "employing a sex worker" route. The older virgin can choose when to lose it in that transaction; choice is a way of reclaiming "power". There is no sense of feeling "inferior" to other men; being there and willing to pay is an equalizer. So long as they are not rude or violent or disgusting, if they want to reveal it to get it off their chest, there's no pressure. A sex worker is not going to lose a good tip by reacting badly; in fact, from her POV, her odds of contracting a STD just went closer to zero. And if she says anything positive about it, or one's sexual performance, it can be interpreted in the prism of good customer service. Now that's not to say that sex workers can't be genuinely nice and supportive or genuinely mean a compliment, but its more likely just curtesy. And besides, you'll still be a virgin in terms of a relationship, which is its own challenge and a way to get that experience with some of the pressure off. I am not saying I am sold personally, but I am slowly really seeing your point.

[inbloomer]

Talking about sex is indeed difficult. I think there are strong, perennial reasons why that is, and anyone who comes in thinking they can solve it just like that quickly gets caught in the same contradictions everyone else does. So even in a long-term relationship, yes there is the question of whether you go for complete openness or whether you adopt more of a don’t ask, don’t tell policy.

However, you talk about vocal minorities. If I went solely by the people I’ve actually met, and bear in mind I’ve travelled a lot and moved in quite a lot of circles of society, I would say the number of people who are actually up for casual, random sex is really a small minority, though a vocal one. I would say later virginity is actually not that uncommon, though people will rarely talk about it directly. I would also say the biggest group is people who have had 1-3 substantial relationships and nothing else.

If I went solely by media articles or comments on online forums, then yes I would estimate those proportions differently.

I’m only guessing, but there may be a tendency for men who grew up putting women on pedestals then to go too far in the other direction, imagining them all to be sexually voracious and uninhibited.

It’s not that I think there’s nothing to worry about here, and I don’t think the trite lines around “just communicate and it’ll all be fine!” are useful. But I don’t think it is helping you to be constantly fixated on this same, specific scenario. At least consider that this particular aspect of a relationship might turn out alright, but the challenge or dilemma might come from an aspect you’re currently not putting thought into.

[Datelessman]

Talking about sex is indeed difficult. I think there are strong, perennial reasons why that is, and anyone who comes in thinking they can solve it just like that quickly gets caught in the same contradictions everyone else does. So even in a long-term relationship, yes there is the question of whether you go for complete openness or whether you adopt more of a don’t ask, don’t tell policy.

However, you talk about vocal minorities. If I went solely by the people I’ve actually met, and bear in mind I’ve travelled a lot and moved in quite a lot of circles of society, I would say the number of people who are actually up for casual, random sex is really a small minority, though a vocal one. I would say later virginity is actually not that uncommon, though people will rarely talk about it directly. I would also say the biggest group is people who have had 1-3 substantial relationships and nothing else.

If I went solely by media articles or comments on online forums, then yes I would estimate those proportions differently.

You do have a point that tabulating odds and percentages depends in part on one's personal social network and/or the reality of their area.

I live in New York and where I have been, from high school thru college into adulthood, I would say most people are in for semi-casual dating where sex is reasonably expected fairly soon. In fact, most of my pals would "hook up," have sex with a woman very soon after meeting her, and either do that more and suddenly a relationship grew or date later. And while I could say it was mostly the men who thought this way, I knew many women who shared these expectations and lifestyles. Most of my friends did not "settle down" into either marriage or a long term engagement until their 30's (both genders). While I do have two associates who married their first (or second) lover, they were not the norm. And I remain the only virgin. In fact, I was the only virgin by the time the group hit their late teens. But, none of them were "studs" or had "high numbers." Most of them, as you mentioned, had roughly 3-4 substantial relationships. Even the "player" of the group didn't have more than 5-6 different lovers.

It also is worth considering that women have not been encouraged to brag or mention being promiscuous until very recently. And even now, the double standard's specter is real.

But, I imagine this may be different in regions outside NY or California, such as in "the Bible belt" and so on.

While few people demand knowledge of someone's previous partners, it is not uncommon for some mention of them to happen in casual conversation. Especially since for people my/our ages, children are a common factor.

I’m only guessing, but there may be a tendency for men who grew up putting women on pedestals then to go too far in the other direction, imagining them all to be sexually voracious and uninhibited.

It’s not that I think there’s nothing to worry about here, and I don’t think the trite lines around “just communicate and it’ll all be fine!” are useful. But I don’t think it is helping you to be constantly fixated on this same, specific scenario. At least consider that this particular aspect of a relationship might turn out alright, but the challenge or dilemma might come from an aspect you’re currently not putting thought into.

I'm only working from the letters, which tend to go there. I'd prefer DNL be more willing to issue some truths and realistic expectations than some of his slogans to that demographic, but I imagine his own experiences have tilted his views. He simply does not understand.

I also imagine many older male virgins assume people are having more sex than they are, much like advertisers and various think-tanks do. Our entire unequal economic situation has led to a variety of effects, including people starting families later, living with parents longer (if they ever move out at all), and so on. Various studies claim the younger generations are having less sex than previous ones (and I imagine the "sexual revolution" of the 60's and 70's are still tilting many of those older figures). But, it also comes from the tendency of people, especially virgins, to wonder about the grass being greener and so on.

For me personally, I'm not fixated. I don't intend to ever reveal my virgin status to any lover ever under any circumstance. She could mention it in passing as a fetish of hers and I still would not disclose it. The bigger challenges are attracting someone for a first date and then being enticing enough for a second or more. The fact that I can't kiss and have never had a LTR are far bigger immediate red flags, but there's not much I can do about that. If I ever have a sexual opportunity I'll just try my best to wing it and hopefully being receptive and attentive will at least bump the experience up to mediocre for the woman, which is good enough cover. I mean, if I so chose I could always reveal it afterward.

"Well...that wasn't that bad."
"I didn't think it was that bad for my first time either. Things can only improve from here!"

[Jayce]

Its been a couple of years since I have posted here, but I have been reading Dr. Nerdlove again, I have lost my virginity 2 years ago, and I want to post my thoughts on the topic in case my experiences help anyone out.  

My story of losing my virginity: I actually decided to skip the cultural concept of virginity. 2 years ago I finally turned 23, I began feeling increasingly sad about my virginity, I felt that it was all over for me and I was never going to experience romance anyway so I thought I might as well get it over with. I'm glad that escorting is legal in Australia and so I didn't have to think too much about potential complications. At first I thought about making a booking with an escort but I was too shy, I chickened out and realised that I wasn't ready. So instead I went to a strip club and for the first time ever I interacted with a woman in a sexual context. At the strip club, I was too scared to approach any of the workers but luckily one of them approached me, I asked if I could spend some time with her, she agreed and I paid for her time. She was really kind to me and made my day a lot better. A couple of months later I finally decided that I was brave enough to lose it so I did some research, and ended up making a booking with an escort. During the booking process I told her that I was a virgin and she told me that she was ok with that.
Eventually I met with her at her apartment and we had a good time. I'll be honest, my performance for my first time was not particularly good, because I was too used to masturbation, didn't know how to thrust properly and was really anxious, I struggled to remain hard and barely managed to achieve orgasm through penis in vagina sex only after lots of oral stimulation. However none of that really mattered, it was during my time with her that I truly realised that the most important thing during sex wasn't about any particular activity but rather about how you make the other person feel. I had a really good expereince with her because she wasn't negatively judgmental of me, she was very open minded, kind & inclusive, made me felt less shy and more comfortable. After that experience I continued to be sexually active by visting escorts once in a while.

Now that I have had sex I can finally weigh in on the question many virgins think about: Does experience matter? After being sexually actively for a while, my answer would be YES, BUT, not for the things people say that matters. From my sexual experiences, I have learnt that you can't get good at sex universally, everyone is different and you will always have to adapt if you are doing it with someone different for the first time. The only way to get good at sex with someone, is to continually spend time sexually with them and find out what each of you like (sexual compatability).  Having had more sex will never make someone universally good at sex, nor will it ever be an automatic guarantee that they will perform well with a new partner.

Where experience does matter in my opinon is: safety, hygiene, communication & learning how to thrust better.

The first couple of times there were safety things I should have prioritised more like picking the right condom size, not realising when I was putting too much of my bodyweight on my partner, and I had to learn about the importance of making each other feel emotionally safe. In my opinion, physical, sexual and emotional safety is the number one priority when being sexually active with someone and it should always be on the minds of both partners to look out for each other in these areas.

For hygiene, although I always had good hygiene practices, from experience I finally realised how important it was to always shower before sex. You see, as we go throughout the day, people tend to pee, and the more you pee, the more your genitals start smelling like urine which is a very unpleasant smell. Showering provides you an important opportunity to get rid of any potential body odour, wash up and clean my genitals properly so that they smell at minimum neutral. Showering and cleaning your genitals before sex was something that sex ed definitely didn't teach me and since it was never talked about a lot, I only learnt it through experience. In my opinion hygiene is the 2nd most important thing after safety when it comes to having sex.

Communication is really important in providing enthusiastic consent, ensuring everything is going ok, talking with each other about boundaries, and about the activities you want to do. It takes courage to be upfront about sexual activities that you want to do, and I became more confident with more communciation through experience. For example the first couple of times I really struggled to communicate with my partners that I wanted to give them oral because I felt too shy but eventually I got used to communicating about what I wanted to do, became more confident in my communication and I felt less anxious about it.

Lastly, thrusting is a real skill that I actually had to learn to improve and get better at. It took me a couple of times to get used to the motions of thrusting and the motions do feel different when you are thrusting in different positions. It was also only after several sexual experiences that I realised that I was masturbating too often and too intensely which made it difficult for me to remain hard enough for sex and I had to fix that issue.

Although I had to learn to improve through experience, I truly think that virgins can do well during their first time as long as they are mindful of safety, hygiene and communication. Experience just helps you get used to these ideas more.

My advice to anyone considering losing their virginity to an escort is to make sure you treat escorts with kindness and respect and make sure that you won't feel ashamed about it later on.

I am definitely happy that I made that decision, it was one of the best decisions that I have made in my entire life.

In regards to a person's dating life as a whole, virginity loss is honestly so extremely insignificant. The biggest change I have experienced by losing my virginity was finally not having to emotionally stress out and worry about it so much anymore and I finally know what sex feels like so it stopped being this mysterious activity. My dating life after virignity loss is still non-existent because I am focusing so much of my time on getting my life together so that I can get my career started and I have no time to date at all. But I do feel emotionally better about my desirability and virginity stopped feeling like a huge emotional burden.

[Datelessman]

Welcome back, Jayce! And thank you for posting your in depth and deeply personal experiences regarding losing your virginity and your own perspective on it, especially for a group of like minded strangers.

I especially appreciated your frank and honest ideas about the elements of sexual experience that matter and how you boiled them down into four simple to remember categories. As well as noting how a "boost of confidence" coming from having had sex may not be about the act itself but the fact that the angst about the lack of it, especially a first time, is no longer living "rent free in your mind."

DNL advocates that such a thing can be done without having actually had the sex, through sheer willpower or emotional work or so on, but let's be honest. The sex act itself helps, even if only a little. Having seen "what all the fuss was about" allows you to move on.

I live in the United States so the only area where prostitution is legal are one or two counties in Las Vegas, Nevada. Now, it is true that even in areas where it is illegal, most of the risk for a "john" is pretty low in terms of getting arrested, and it's even possible to find a sex worker who is more independent and not some sort of captive to a pimp than ever before. Honestly, I would say a man has a bigger risk of being set up for a robbery trying to hire a sex worker than he is of getting arrested by police (and if he has no record, it'd barely be a fine or community service). Still, I would much rather prefer somewhere legal if I were to do it at all, for the least amount of anxiety for me as well as the lowest risk of a STD, so Vegas it would be. Assuming I get to that point, and of course if Covid-19 lets up. I'm in my late 30's, so, I have lost a great deal of time. I am glad you sorted yourself out much earlier in your life. Carrying this burden and shame as long as I have is not fun.

"Safety, Hygiene, Communication, and Thrust." Straight and to the point, I like it.

I used to worry about "having to hide such a secret for the rest of my life" should I lose my virginity this way, but eh, I am becoming more flexible on that for self serving reasons. So long as I check myself for an STD and stay healthy, the details separating a session with a sex worker from a random hook-up sex with a "rando" from a club, bar, or frat are slim.

I mean, I'd prefer not to lose my virginity that way. It's been one of my dreams for the longest time to just do it like everyone else; I meet someone who I like who likes me back, we get close after a while and we just do it. But, as I have learned recently, dreams are for children. We all grow up and have to make this world what we want it to be with what we have and take advantage of what is before us. You did, and it sounds like you resolved that aspect of your life in a satisfying and even enjoyable way. I hope your work on improving the rest of your life has been going just as swimmingly!

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