Winter Anime Season 2021
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Re: Winter Anime Season 2021
Neverland S2E5.5: ugh, recap. I skimmed through and it didn't fill us in on anything new even though they implied it would at the start. I assume they must have been running behind and needed a clip episode, because they've barely done anything to recap. This show better up its game soon or it's gonna lose me.
Wonder Egg Priority 3
Wonder Egg Priority 3
- Spoiler:
-they do a good job with the energy of this new girl, the way Ai is totally unbalanced by her sudden back-and-forth between aggressive and friendly and cheerfully and unashamedly manipulative, it feels exactly like a new kid in middle school who's being friendly and probably needs the friends right now, but you can also feel they're dangerously much cooler than you and you're not sure what they're going to do with that power and you can't trust them
-that power play with grabbing the last kiwi
-a 14-yr-old kid flirting with adults means she's scary, that is fuuuucked up. But pretty realistic for peers to think that way; I remember in middle school when a girl a few years ahead of me was raped by a teacher, the other kids treated her that way because she'd had a crush on him. Hopefully things have changed a little since then, here if not in Japan.
-self-harm scars are "a youthful whatever"
-doesn't want her fan shoplifting for her so she tells her she doesn't want to be seen with someone so fat, and then the fan starves herself to death, this is impressively awful all round
-Ai would have done a double suicide with Koito if she'd asked
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Re: Winter Anime Season 2021
Neverland S2E6
So there's some rapid plot-exposition at the beginning of the episode and it's like "Oh shit, is this the missing arc?" and it feels like we maybe missed a lot by it not happening
So there's some rapid plot-exposition at the beginning of the episode and it's like "Oh shit, is this the missing arc?" and it feels like we maybe missed a lot by it not happening
- Spoiler:
- "Hey guys, I wen to a horrifying place but now I can kill all the demons" presented as a huge ass-pull, damn
- "Huh, I never knew Norman was a genocidal maniac"
- And now Norman's a boss of a bunch of psychopaths for some reason, and giving us the very cliche "and now we're so focused on revenge that WE are the same as the bad guys" thing
- "Experiment"
- And Norman goes full evil when he hears that the "Heretical Girl" is still alive
Attack on Titan went off the rails and now this one is too
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Re: Winter Anime Season 2021
Neverland S2E7
Now this is getting a little more interesting
Now this is getting a little more interesting
- Spoiler:
- Sooooo the "Heretic Girl" is a mutation that can cure the demons of the need to eat Humans and they tried it before but the rulership was like "Nah" and this makes Norman mad because he wants to kill'em all
- Super-convenient plot twist either way
- I still don't like this "Let's send all the leadership away on a mission and leave the kids behind" deal, but if it's close then it's probably fine
- Yeah, Norman's been fiddled with too even though he said he wasn't.
- Someone I'm watching with speculated that Norman's gonna expire soon and he wants to kill all the demons quick so his family can be safe, but I think his brain got messed with too, I don't really remember him being this psychopathic? Though I guess he did ask Emma "permission" at a number of the earlier stages whether they should escape themselves or bring everyone, whether they should ditch the traitor and on and on.
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Re: Winter Anime Season 2021
Sorry, been falling a bit behind.
Neverland S2E6
Neverland S2E6
- Spoiler:
-Ray goes with a slap for greeting
-"I'm glad I'm alive," and Emma's look of relief when he says it
-they created super-humans at the lab while trying to get better meat, whoops
-So it took an entire season of intense struggles, heartbreak and planning to escape from the farm with the cooperation of the three of them and all the other kids, but apparently Norman just found a bunch of Minerva supporters, escaped, and destroyed the lab as a footnote. Even if it was theoretically as difficult, not showing it happening makes it feel cheap and easy. They're really fucking this up and wasting the gut-punch potential of bringing Norman back.
-And he invented a fucking drug that causes demons to disintegrate. What. the fuck. There was always a hint of Mary Sue/deus ex machina about Norman, but wow, they really launched themselves full-force into it. "oh hi, that guy who died last season has actually just solved the plot while you were learning how to pick berries all season."
-it's kind of cool that demons take different forms and abilities from what they eat and if they don't eat humans they risk losing sentience, there's an interesting new moral angle here, how horrifying is it to forcibly rip away sentience from an entire species? And also, what's the deal with Sonju and Mujika, then?
-Emma's the only one who's horrified. Probably Ray too, he's not saying anything.
-Even if they don't use the drug, if they escape, they'll still be sentencing the demons to degeneration
-Listen to Ray, he knows alllll about burying feelings
-Norman's the boss of this whole group of adults and he's their badass "winter" "emperor" and even saved kids from farms and did a better job of it than Emma and Ray managed with his help? FFS!
-they're eating demon meat, there goes humans' moral superiority in a puff of "if you seek revenge you're just as bad as the bad guys" cliche. Or maybe a hammer-smash of it, it wasn't exactly subtle. (also, there's a reason people tend not to eat carnivore meat even if they can get it. Though I guess maybe the demons eat enough non-animal food to taste less strong? Or they're like alligators.)
-Norman's too busy acting like a crime boss in a sweater-vest to have time for them
-Mujika's "evil-blooded girl" who mentioning her makes Norman go all evil-looking.
Bleah, really disappointed in this episode. Attack on Titan's kind of always been half-on, half-off the rails, so I'm kind of resigned to it, though it's been unexpectedly bad for so close to the end, this one I really hoped for better from.
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Re: Winter Anime Season 2021
Neverland S2E7
- Spoiler:
-Mujika's a centuries-old walking cure for degeneration/human-eating that could bring about revolution against the farm-controlling demon rulers but also could prevent Norman's plan to kill them all. It's a little much as a plot device. But, if eating human meat is so delicious and culturally desirable anyway (I assume, based on the fact that even though Sonju's presumably gotten Mujika's blood and doesn't have to eat humans, he still intends to when he can do it in a religiously-approved way), I'm not sure it'd change the power structure that much on its own.
-It's kind of off how starkly he's opposing the idea of a third option, when in first season his whole thing was that he was cynical/practical enough to make awful sacrifices, but ultimately supported Emma's belief over his own analysis. It's kind of necessary now that Ray's switched to being more supportive of Emma's idealism, but "well, lots of shit probably happened to him when you weren't watching" doesn't work that well to make the change. Like, he should point out why her goal is unrealistic and push her hard on it, even brutally, but the way they're making him seem not just coldly realistic but actively into genocide just doesn't ring true. It feels like he's just a plot device now, not a character.
-Minerva was killed by humans in the end
-"if we do that I won't be able to smile anymore" Emma goes for the jugular, if he still has one
-Norman going for the jugular right back by pointing out he wouldn't have been shipped out if they'd gone for what was certain (though, it's not like they had a comparable sure plan in that case, since they'd already had to rule out killing Mama, so it's a bit of a cheat. But I'd buy that Emma wouldn't notice that.) If they do a good job with the conflict between Emma/Ray and Norman and how he's changed, they could get back some of that emotional intensity and feeling like the people you want to trust may not be trustworthy of the first season, even if they've started it off poorly, I do feel some hope there.
-Emma makes a deal. I like about Emma that most of the time she comes off as just the idealistic, kindhearted one, but every so often they bring out some sharpness in her, you get the sense that she's still got a trick up her sleeve if he makes her use it.
-When he tells them to be careful, for a moment he looks like the old Norman, and then the way when he stops waving, he looks at his hand like "hm, was that waving a little too friendly for Ice Emperor? Better keep an eye in case an emotion happens."
-the adults are all weirdly emotionally dependent on Norman, I'm not sure if it's meant to be that the experiments destroyed their emotional regulation and they latched onto Norman as a figure of stability, or if it's just clumsy "they're generally fucked up" plus "Norman's so great"
-performing horrible experiments on the demons, jeez
-thinking about what would happen to the demons makes all the kids suddenly realize their own potential to turn on each other out of hunger, that was pretty good
-they have to fix their failure of having let Norman be sacrificed by not letting him sacrifice his humanity for them
-probably they should leave at least one of the older kids with the group, it drives me crazy how much they don't when the younger ones clearly aren't ready to handle big problems on their own
-Uh-oh, coughing up blood. Did he lie that he didn't get experimented on, then? In which case his personality change could be either what Emma interpreted it as, trying to sacrifice himself to save his family, or it could be that the experiments messed with his brain in a more subtle way than the others. Either way, it's probably not just that they decided it'd be cool to make him a psychopathic crime boss/revolutionary, so that's reassuring.
I feel a lot better about things now that it seems like the show still has plans for Norman-as-a-character rather than just having turned him into an overly-awesome obstacle who they can use for extra emotional punch. IIRC, they did make Ray a little over-powered at the point where they were using him as a potential threat/self-destructively working against them, too, so that gives me a little more confidence they're going somewhere and just had a bad transition to this new arc.
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Re: Winter Anime Season 2021
- Spoiler:
I don't like how easily Minerva was discarded as a plot device. That shit was interesting as hell, and they just (seemingly) dumped it because it was a tool to get them from Point A to Point B and now that we're at Point B, we'll just switch to something else
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Re: Winter Anime Season 2021
- Spoiler:
- Agreed. Especially when they'd already teased us and let us down with it with the phone call bit, where it seemed potentially horrifying, and then it was just a fakeout, and all the mystery it had at first, I was really hoping we'd get some cool revelations or complications there. I guess they might still bring it in again, but it seems unlikely since Minerva followers have just been shuttled into "Norman's allies".
They really have not handled this season well in terms of what they've chosen to skim through and what to dwell on. To be fair, some of it seems like the source material had some mandatory but not actually that compelling elements to set up future stuff, like the whole time with Mujika and Sonju was clearly necessary to spend a fair bit of time on, given the new developments, but it wasn't very engaging in its own right, and that kind of thing's hard to work around.
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Re: Winter Anime Season 2021
Neverland S2E8
- Spoiler:
- -Mama and Norman's faces both when they hug
-Come on, the head guy here being all "hahaha, I enjoy depriving children of hope" when this show can pull off a complicated, tragic, awful villain like Isabela? Last season when I was wondering about there being men who get kept alive, I was figuring we'd get an interesting different-gendered angle on the fucked up collaborator dynamics to contrast with the mamas, but apparently the men just go cartoon villain.
-why did they take just one girl here instead of putting her through Mama training? Maybe she's infertile but smart enough to be worth using still?
-they didn't show him being experimented on but he's already coughing up blood? Was he just sick to begin with??
-So far I'm finding it a bit cheap, emotionally, showing Norman struggling in flashback when we already know what's come of it, like they're trying to wring out more sympathy and filling in gaps that didn't need to be filled. And it doesn't seem like the other prisoners there even really helped him, so it's even more excessively beating the "Norman's the most amazing of everyone ever" dead horse than it was already.
-I though showing the backstory stuff might at least give some depth to make him being so evil now ring more true than just the "demons did horrible things to them" they'd already given us, but it didn't even achieve that. Just "look, horrible things, in slightly more detail than we already told you, now he wants to kill them all".
-The whole "I'll be evil to save everyone" thing feels cliched, too; it's a trope I like, but I expected a more skilled take on it from this show.
-he went ahead and did it before they came back
-And it's horrrrrriiiible. It's weird that they're having them degenerating mean that they instantly start eating each other's flesh; when they talked about it before it seemed more like they'd turn on each other in desperation, and if the drug just turns them into non-sentient beasts, well, most animals don't just immediately and viciously eat others of their species while their environment is on fire. So it seems more like it actually actively made them not just non-sentient, but basically flesh-eating zombies
-the old demon from the temple comes back to a zombie movie apocalypse
-Norman only hesitates to kill a crying demon kid because she's named Emma too
-Grandpa has the special blood
-Emma just in time to stop Norman from straight-up stabbing a sweet old Grandpa & sobbing kid
-suddenly Norman looks about six years old
-Emma's reaction is just to not let him go alone this time??? wtf? are they seriously going to just move past something this bad and excuse it as "you did a bad thing, but you suffered alone to protect us so it's fine"?? That's what it sounds like. If they don't, and don't kill him doing something redemptive (which is probably more likely), it could actually make for a great dynamic, if they approach it as he's basically unforgiveable but they still have to work together. But I don't trust this show's skill with character and emotion anymore. We'll see, I guess.
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Re: Winter Anime Season 2021
(I'm 2 eps behind now, been hard to sync up with the simul-watcher but we'll get to it this week probably)
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Re: Winter Anime Season 2021
I'll enjoy this brief moment of not being the one who's behind!
Neverland S2E9
Neverland S2E9
- Spoiler:
-Emma just destroying him with her relentless kindness.
-It's kind of fucked up watching them be so purely forgiving to Norman with the old grandfather and little child huddled there watching while their home and people are being destroyed in the most horrifying way possible in the background.
-oh, he is dying. I'm not sure an easy redemptive death would be any better than if everything's totally fine between them afterwards. They did a good job of making the degeneration scene absolutely horrifying even though I'm not very interested in the demons, and if they'd actually deal with the emotional/moral aftermath of that it could make for some amazing conflicts and dynamics
-Sonju can just chop off an arm and regrow it instantly, is that all demons or something to do with the special blood or what?
-even crazy girl can't bring herself to directly kill a cowering demon child.
-"Oopsie," says Norman, and his previously bloodthirsty and fanatic-seeming subordinates are fine with the change of plan. This is way too easy, especially with Mujika easily undoing everything they did, too. This season seems almost afraid to let things be difficult or tense, even though a big part of what made first season work was how brutal it was emotionally and how genuinely difficult escaping was.
-And now we're back to having to save the Grace Field kids, like this was just a little detour.
-Wait, why has Isabela been promoted?? The last thing we saw about her was that she was in trouble and had to track down the kids or she'd be killed?! Was that woman not actually Isabela??
-Seems like white-haired guy is Minerva. (Also, could be Norman's father.)
-the news of the Grace Field kids being shipped out is a trap
-they're converting to the lab-type system. Kind of cheap and lazy villainry compared to the emotional punch of the happy childhood orphanages
-the old demon giving them the pen part, but also mentioning he ate the human he got it from (but it's fine since the human was dying anyway)
-not just a blueprint of the farm headquarters but conveniently also a cure for the lab rats. Again, this is too fucking easy. And it makes Emma's warm-and-fuzzy approach cheap, too - if things always turn out better in every way when you go with love and hope, there's no strength in choosing it, and no doubt, it just makes Norman look like an idiot for not just trusting in blind faith and Emma's Mary Sue power of love
-And they don't even have Norman actually apologize, they have the kid who just watched her family turn into monsters and eat each other apologize to him. What. The. Fuck.
-Bald guy's a traitor
What a fucking waste of the only challenging thing they've done this season and the one hope they were going to get back to some hard-hitting character stuff. I don't think this show's ever really going to get good again. I'm far enough in that I do want to keep watching, but I'm not hoping for anything more than mediocre at this point.
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Re: Winter Anime Season 2021
Neverland E2 Episode 8
- Spoiler:
So I'm more the type where you can show me as many crying demon children as you want to attempt to guilt me, if the cows suddenly rose up against humanity, they should absolutely kick us all to death no matter who we are because even if we don't need to eat beef, a lot of us like to. They've already established through Sonjuu that even if they don't need to eat humans, they still want to. It's a very us-or-them set-up and the right choice is always going to be "us" and "just in case." The Lambda goofiness wasn't really needed (that shit is much scarier if left to the imagination) to create the justification for it.
I also find it weird because Emma's wanting to save her family no matter what and not kill all the demons but Norman's started the process of killing all the demons and Emma's still choosing him from the sounds of it, so even she's taking a bit of an "us" standpoint unless this is going to lead in a different direction than I would've thought.
bomaye- Posts : 3069
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Re: Winter Anime Season 2021
- Spoiler:
- I think this all hangs on Emma's personality. I agree the Lambda shit wasn't needed, and it wouldn't be a clear moral wrong to kill all the demons, but I do think it'd be severely out of character for Emma to have made friends with some and still be okay with killing them. Though also, just because they made it such a horrifying scene - and the concept of desentience-genocide is horrific enough anyway - it'd be kind of skipping out on some of the stronger elements on what they've established to just act like because it's justified, it'd be easy for the characters emotionally/morally (I'd do it if I didn't see a realistic other option, but I think it would be somewhat psychopathic to not be at all bothered by doing it, and I'm not Emma). I think this show would probably have worked better if they didn't go down the path of semi-sympathetic demons at all, honestly, but since they have, I don't think they can just wipe over it as a straightforward good or easy choice for the characters, given the characters they've got.
And for Norman, they've established Emma to be enough of a "when it's us or them, pick both us and them" optimistic/determined person that I do feel it's in character for her to pick Norman without going against the demons and don't find it weird, especially since they've made it an easy choice by making Norman immediately regret what he's done and stop, and it seems like they're just kind of brushing over how horrible it was in order to make it even easier. It feels like at this point it's already decided blind faith is going to simplistically carry the day and they'll at the last minute figure out a way to allow both demons and humans to live in reasonable peace, rather than still having to go against the demons at the end when it becomes clear some of them just wanna eat people anyway, as would make sense.
Which is such a fucking waste, I'd so deeply have loved to see Norman's actions being treated as something unignorably horrifying (which they wouldn't have had to have treated it as if they hadn't shown the scenes of the children sobbing as their parents tear each other to pieces to the degree they did, they could have just kept it more like season 1 where the pragmatist position was darker and hard to accept but seemed like an equally story-acceptable choice to the optimist position. But they did go all-out on making that scene horrible, so they should stick with the consequences of that writing choice), without just going the other direction and writing him off as evil and him becoming a straightfoward enemy or killing him off, and force Emma's love-and-hope to really deal with the struggle of being an idealist who sees the best in everyone in a world as dark as they've made this one be at times.
To be fair to the show, it's hitting on and then chickening out of two tropes I love personally -traitors/people who cross a big moral line having to actually live with the emotional consequences in a nuanced way. And what idealism means in dark times that don't just easily reward idealism by making it always turn out to be the most pragmatically beneficial choice in the end. So I might be taking them skimming over both of those as a worse storytelling failure than it actually is from a more neutral standpoint, but even without that wasted potential, it just seems like the whole thing's a mess of cheesy overdone shit and lack of focus. But I'm on their side in terms of Emma's reactions mostly making sense given what the story's doing, even though I don't like what the story's doing.
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Re: Winter Anime Season 2021
Neverland S2E10
*Sigh*
- Spoiler:
-oh man, they've moved the Grace Field kids to another plant, so there won't be that 'prison break/coming back home' element I was hoping for
-Baldy being a mole is just a fakeout.
-Okay, now we can just make a whole flotilla of hot-air balloons, why not. The contrast between what they can do with Norman in a 2-second scene's worth of work vs. what they were able to do without him with half a season of work is ridiculous
-it was one thing when the experimentees could take down demons, but now Ray can do it with a lead pipe? They've gotten so overpowered.
-Phil just holding his mouth shut to stop from bawling
-Ratri clenching his fist and shouting "damn you William Minerva" is 80s cartoon-level bad guy
-Isabela, come on, you're our only hope to provide a genuine challenge and save this show
-the new Mamas can't even catch a single 5-yr-old with no plan but being told to play tag, can't even run after them without falling, compare this to how brutally Isabela and Krone shut down painstakingly developed plan after plan last season, how overwhelmingly powerful they were compared to the kids, it's pathetic. I assume there's gonna be something to thwart them from escaping still or that letting them get this far was intentional (given how bad things have been, maybe I shouldn't assume ), but just reaching Phil and co should have been a massive triumph pulled off against all odds, they should have had to try so hard to get an inch that the defeat is devastating; instead it barely feels like an achievement at all and the defeat will feel like they should just shrug and say "yeah, that's fair, we probably should have worked a little harder."
-Emma and Phill hugging each other and crying still got me a little, though
-Whew, a problem. Isabela's "Welcome back, my precious children," + machine gun almost has me rooting for her, we need this so much
-Isabela switches sides We went what, two seconds, with a problem they couldn't solve?
-Isabela coldly saying "don't get me wrong, we just happened to share the same interests," but when Emma says thank you and calls her Mama, she still smiles, that was pretty good
-they even managed to permanently nullify the heart-exploding chip
-And now even the demons are revolting?? come ooooononnnnn
-Emma offering Ratri her hand felt like the 80s cartoon-level of the trope, they made the character so cartoonish and her understanding his position so simple that I can't believe this was made by the same people who wrote the dynamics between Isabela and the kids last season.
*Sigh*
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Re: Winter Anime Season 2021
Neverland S2E9
- Spoiler:
This was bad in every which direction. Everything magically works out for the better but still sets up an obvious trap.
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Re: Winter Anime Season 2021
Neverland S2E10
Honestly the worst part of all this is not just that Neverland fell off a cliff, but Attack on Titan went with it in the same season
Honestly the worst part of all this is not just that Neverland fell off a cliff, but Attack on Titan went with it in the same season
- Spoiler:
I can see some wiggle room for Ratri getting development like this is he was like a buddy of Minerva's and then chickened out at the end the same way Mama Isabelle did way back with her buddy, but with the plot on fast forward and maybe taking creative turns to get to it, this definitely isn't it
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Re: Winter Anime Season 2021
- Spoiler:
- Yeah, Ratri absolutely could have been made interesting, the whole collaboration thing in first season was really fascinating and I'd been hoping for more of it, but it's probably too late at this point and he was so badly done up till then that even if they did it right from now on it'd be hard to salvage.
It wouldn't even be so bad if both shows had been bad in different ways, but we've got wall-to-wall sledgehammer out-of-character writing, awkward maneuvering of too much world/backstory info, and outstandingly horrible - impressively horrible, really! - choices in what to spend tons of time on and what to cram into three episodes, so it creates exponential annoyingness. And I can't even decide which of them I'm more frustrated by, on the one hand, we've gone through three seasons of AoT to reach this?! But otoh, it always had pretty strong tendencies towards bad writing so I feel more of a resigned "ugh, you couldn't at least somewhat hold it together one more season?" whereas I haven't invested as much in Neverland, but how good the first season was on exactly the stuff they're failing at now makes for an agonizing "why would you do that??!"
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Re: Winter Anime Season 2021
Neverland S2E11
Let's see if they can somehow redeem some of this for the ending, though I think it's probably too late.
Let's see if they can somehow redeem some of this for the ending, though I think it's probably too late.
- Spoiler:
-oh boy, we're spending some of our last time on backstory again.
-Minerva was horrified to learn it wasn't the descendants of the anti-peace faction being farmed, but mostly what we'd previously known about the situation was that it was a horrifying means to peace anyway, so it's kind of weak. They're sacrificing children either way. If they'd started hinting at this a little earlier and done it skillfully, they could have made it a meaningful character bit by resting on how people care more about those they have a connection to and maybe done something cool with Minerva being their hero but also a self-centered person who was fine with children being farmed for food as long as he could see them as the children of "bad people," which would have allowed them to make lil bro Ratri's cold/desperate adherence to the system more sympathetic and complex, but they didn't, so I'm kind of not sure why we're bothering with it now at all.
-Convenient of him to slit his throat
-why are Isabela and the Sisters so shocked at the idea of coming with to the human world? Also, it kind of ruins Isabela saying she's only doing it for her own purposes if she was intending to heroically stay here and fight for humans all along, they just wiped out the last bit of her complexity.
-I like Ray telling Isabela she should just fucking live with her regrets instead of dying as the easy way out, like he did. But omg, just being like "no one's holding grudges" and everyone immediately and happily considering her their Mama again regardless of what she did just because she did genuinely love them? This is too easy again, they're wasting it! If they at first couldn't forgive her and now they do, they needed to show us that process for this reunion to work. They keep skipping the hard and emotionally important stuff and showing us the easy parts that result. Redeeming/forgiving Isabela could have been everything I would have wanted to see in this show, but they didn't emotionally earn it so it feels cheap and meaningless.
-the melancholy music over the scenes of them having normal lives safe in the human world
-Isabella has a baby, mixed feelings about that one:.
-Emma meets a dragon, that's random. Possibly this 'traveling around changing the world' stuff was a whole arc in the manga and they realized it would feel pointless now that they wrapped up saving their family and Isabela' and Minerva's plotlines, in which case, good job them realizing that and skipping it.
-They finally made it.
Them finally coming home probably would have been a really satisfying happy ending if they hadn't fucked everything up before that, so I landed up trying to feel it but mostly being left flat. What a shame for a show that started out so good. And the majority of the problems are ones that as a viewer are easy to see how you could have fixed them, too, so it's gonna be one of those shows that bugs me forever.
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Re: Winter Anime Season 2021
Neverland Finale
- Spoiler:
I liked the giant evil door and liked some of the montage of the kids growing up in the real world and the gang having kooky fantasy adventures, but this one fell apart because the anime production company did a terrible job and it might've fallen apart anyways because the strength was in the setting and they left the setting.
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