Dating cultures

[inbloomer]

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/sep/10/british-singles-on-the-awkward-truth-about-dating-abroad

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/sep/10/non-brits-on-the-boozy-truth-about-dating-in-the-uk


These articles are quite a bit to wade through, but they back up what I've been saying over and over, which is that different cultures do things very differently where it comes to dating. The verbal forthrightness DNL advocates (asking people on what you specifically call a date, later on having a big "defining the relationship" conversation) may work in his local environment, but in some places it falls on very stony ground.

[Datelessman]

In fairness, DNL has sometimes prefaced his advice as being relative to area, although he likely doesn't do it often enough especially when he answers letters from other countries. You're correct, what may work where he lives (which I assume is the Southern or Midwestern U.S.) may not work in the UK or somewhere else. He may not do that often enough, though. He's far more consistent with some of his clever catch phrases or quotations from his favorite comics, films, and TV shows.

I live in NY which is an area proud of its social rudeness, almost as much as the French are stereotyped as. Women outnumber men here so women in NY are notoriously selective with their dating criteria. It isn't the same as Hickville, Middle America where a transplant who is under 60 suddenly represents 10% of the available singles department (or less if they're into certain hobbies). I've actually been told by a number of people to move to or visit other states "where people are nicer." I am content in my ability to not fit in anywhere.

Still, even in other cities and countries, there has to be some social process for expressing a romantic (rather than platonic) intention properly. It is different here versus the UK versus Japan, etc., but it has to exist.

[inbloomer]

From everything I've read and seen over the years, as well as talking with friends about their experiences, the British method seems to be:

1) Look for a situation where inhibitions will be lower than normal. (Usually but not exclusively these involve alcohol.)
2) Get tactile, starting platonic but then escalate (e.g. letting a friendly hug linger too long) and see if she pulls away or goes with it.

I think that favours a certain type, who is naturally tactile and has the self-confidence to smooth it over if they've misjudged the level of interest. It's much harder for people like me who are very untactile.

I do think British culture is very uncomfortable with big "this is how I feel about you" declarations, while with verbal flirting there's a very thin line between "she likes it but sees it as friendly banter" and "now you've gone too far and creeped her out".

[Datelessman]

I find this kind of ironic because my mother has been a tourist to Britain a few times and has a longtime pal/ex who lives there and before her health got so dire she used to sporadically encourage me to try vacationing there to sow some wild oats because somehow, women were "different" there. I disbelieved her for various reasons, and from your daily experience it seemed to be justified.

I don't think DNL is a big fan of "big declarations of love," which he compares to a cat dropping a dead mouse at its owner's feet and letting them deal with it. What he usually advocates is a firm statement that an intended social encounter is romantic and not platonic (i.e. calling it a "date" and not "hanging out" or "chilling"). And while it can feel like the two are the same, especially to anxious inexperienced dudes like us, they aren't. Is simply calling something a "date" and not anything else that taboo in Britain? I'm asking seriously. I don't live there. The last time I visited, I was about two and don't remember it.

From what you describe it is at least a little similar to "the scene" in America: heading to bars/clubs/lounges/parties and initiating with some "platonic touching" and going from there. DNL does advocate that, using examples like touching a forearm or side of the arm during a high point in a conversation or touching the small of a woman's back if things seem to be going okay. And I agree, to a non-tactile and awkward person like you or I, this sounds intimidating and unnatural. I naturally DON'T touch people during the high point of any conversation, even other men who I don't suffer "romantic anxiety" around. So doing so would feel very unnatural even if for many other people, it isn't.

Some people have suggested just asking (i.e. "May I hold your hand?"), but that's advice I think works better in theory than practice. Yes, many women do like "adorkable" men, but I think their volume (relative to area) is overstated. And there is a big difference between a woman's favorite actor or fictional character (who may be a robot or an alien) asking something like that versus someone with less than professional makeup who can't react on cue in a bar. I bet it's romantic when Alan Tudyk does it. I bet hearts melt whenever Brent Spiner says he's "equipped" as Data. That doesn't mean I am anywhere near that professionally charming at being awkward. But maybe I am biased since I live in NY. Would asking work better in Britain?

Verbal flirting is always a relative, objective area. As someone who avidly uses humor in social situations, the best advice I can give is to start out being humorous but "innocent," as in being amusing but not delving immediately into being risque or so on until you gauge your audience. I usually work with what someone gives me, a response to a response. And if they seem receptive, maybe try a modest double entendre (of the sort which may be on a sharp kid's cartoon, like SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN). You're less likely to creep someone out than going too hard too fast, which is what I think many people do. Nor do you want to turn EVERY joke into a double entendre (like a character from DINOSAURS named Sexual Harris). The cliche of Brits is that they appreciate witty, dry humor (and cross dressing), but again, I'd defer to your experience.

[inbloomer]

In the 90s and early 2000s, the words ‘date’ and ‘dating’ weren’t really used at all here. The terminology was:

Fancying = having a crush on
Hitting on = flirting heavily with, probably unreciprocated
Making eyes at = flirting heavily, more likely reciprocated
Pulling / getting off with = a one-off physical encounter, potentially full sex but often just kissing
Asking out = ambiguous, could mean asking on what by context was a date or could mean a big declaration of feelings
Going out with = in a romantic relationship, particularly used in the early stages but definitely stronger than going on an individual date  
Two-timing = going out with more than one person at once; very pejorative
Boyfriend/girlfriend = only used once a relationship was solid and long-term

The American terminology around dates came in more with internet dating about 2010, but I still think Brits aren’t that naturally comfortable with it, especially in terms of escalating a friendship.

What I realise looking back but didn’t properly get at the time is that while you would certainly build friendships during school/uni classes and associated clubs and societies, trying to get romantic during the day rarely worked for anyone. Where this stuff all happened was on Friday nights, in pubs and nightclubs, at house parties etc. Maybe one time two people would be making eyes at each other, then the next they’d pull, then if they pulled two or three weeks in a row they’d be going out. In the past 20 years that culture has declined a lot, and while I don’t want to be too rose-tinted about it, nothing that good or clear has replaced it.

[Enail]

"Asking out" is very common here too (I'm Canada, not US, but I think dating terminology is pretty similar between the two), used for inviting someone on a date or to be in a relationship  but not of great seriousness yet (anything that'd fall under "going out with" as you use it, sounds like, and it's used here the same way). Maybe sometimes for just a general declaration of feelings, but usually has more of a call to action rather than just plunking the feelings down.

"Go on a date" is less common than "ask out" here as well and my sense is that DNL mostly recommends it because unclear situations where one party thinks its a date and the other has no idea are a very common problem for people who struggle with dating, and maybe especially so for nerdy types, so it's a quick way to head that off. But it can sound a touch formal or old-fashioned.  "Dating" is decently common, though, used for anything ongoing that's on more of a boyfriend/girlfriend track than a casual sex or fwb track but not necessarily at the seriousness of "boyfriend/girlfriend."

Interesting to me that "getting off with" can include just kissing there - here I'd say it would be weird to use for anything that didn't involve an orgasm!  If things don't go as far as that, it'd be "making out." And "pulling" isn't used at all (though I feel like I might have heard of it in a PUA context?). And I'm not sure how universal that is, but to me "hitting on" is neutral as far as whether it's reciprocated, it's purely about the one person showing interest, and asking someone out would fall under this too, not only flirting. Whereas "making eyes at" isn't much used here, or sounds old-fashioned if it is, but to me that has more of a vibe of being unreciprocated unless it's specifically said that two people are making eyes at each other - it gives the feel of one party looking longingly or mournfully at the other.  So that's almost opposite.

When I was in university, it was pretty common for people who shared classes or were in the same friend group to get flirty with each other over the course of regular hanging out and land up getting together from that, though of course it happened in parties and bars too. I'm not sure how much that's a typical Canadian or US format, though (and university/college culture can be quite different between the US and Canada, so I don't feel like I can make much comment on the US for this one)

[Datelessman]

This is actually fascinating. I think there is some overlap in social cues and expectations between Canada and the U.S. due to proximity and a lot of shared media, but there is a difference. And there is totally a difference between those two and Britain, and vice versa.

Heck, as a kid I watched so many cartoons voiced by Canadians that for years I thought they said "about" or "sorry" different because they were just better educated adults. The concept of an accent never occurred to me as a child, at least unless it was very noticeable.

But, yes, DNL's advice is very relative to area. And even in the U.S., social cues can vary by state even though we are supposed to be one country. But then again, every region has its own social norms and so on. New York, and especially the New York City area, are genuinely seen as ruder, faster paced, and more cynical than most other areas. So at times my "negative mindset" reflects that. Yes, in YOUR area it might be uncouth or less common for a woman to call a dude a "loser" at a bar to his face for an awkward approach and walk away in a huff, but in NYC that's 3:00 p.m. on a Tuesday. I sometimes joke that if you want to scare a New Yorker, you walk up to a complete stranger and say, "Good morning." 90% of the time people think they're about to be panhandled (myself included).

The best we can do is to take the core of DNL's advice and try to apply it as best we can to our areas and social situations.

[inbloomer]

‘Making out’ isn’t – or at least wasn’t – used here at all. There were equivalent words like canoodling, snogging or smooching, but these were more used by parents and teachers than young people themselves. ‘Making eyes at’ is the one I was least sure about: there is a particular situation where two people within a wider group are obviously flirting with each other, but there may not have been a single phrase for it.

I absolutely get DNL’s intent in recommending removing ambiguity. I just think that in practice, if you ask a British friend or day-to-day acquaintance ‘out on a date’, especially if they’re at the more anxious and inexperienced end to start with, they’re likely to think:

‘What am I signing up to? Is this Valentine’s night clichés of red roses and glasses of champagne? Or is it normal hanging out except there’s an expectation to kiss (or more?) at the end? Will everyone be talking about us now ‘dating’? What if I don’t enjoy it, what’s my off-ramp? Or indeed what if they don’t?’

And my general experience of organising social events is that if the invitation sounds intimidating, it’ll never happen – invitees will decline or flake at the last moment.

(An internet first date at least has a clearer objective, which I’ve seen described as ‘a coffee to see if you’d want another coffee’, and if it’s terrible you just never see them again.)

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