On being interesting [rant/disc.]

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Post by kath on Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:04 pm

The Mikey wrote:Then my question turns to "How am I supposed to know?" Especially when I have no idea how to flirt or even what it means to hit on girls. I really don't know, how to do either or know what that means. I just talk and ask questions in a goofy/exaggerated way or tone of voice sometimes to let them know "Hey I'm not actually serious lol".

For example yesterday, I was hanging out with a coworker and I went to get noodles with her. She said she wanted a to-go bowl and I mentioned "You may need to go up and ask". Well this girl is a totally awkward nerd too and didn't wanna go up and ask. So I gave a hard time about it in a goofy voice and I said "Ohhh my, you're such a neeerd" while very lightly poking her arm and she was laughing about it so I could tell she took it warmly. And In case you're wondering, I got the bowl for her, also if you're wondering further, this coworker has a boyfriend already so this was a mutual chillin' between tech homies.

Would that be considered flirty? I dunno, I tend to ask myself some of these questions because this is just me being silly and having a good time with girls I know. I have a faint idea of this *possibly* being flirty behavior but I don't really know.

I think that''s one of those things that could be flirty, or could just be friendly. I think since she knows you know she has a boyfriend, she probably just assumed you were being friendly - which you were! I think this was more building general rapport than flirting with intent to ask-out. You might meet someone you wanted to ask out and do this kind of thing with them to build a generally good rapport, and then also do things that are a little more romantic in nature. Have you read the DNL blog articles about flirting? What were the sticking points there?

(I actually think you might really fit in with some groups that contain some people you would read as hipster, so that's why I'm pushing on that and not just saying "meh, then avoid that type of event". There are craft fairs in my city and I think if I wanted to like get my digital painting prints business off the ground - and my subject matter wasn't fandom - them I would probably want to do it via those craft fairs, which have a high proportion of hipster-reading people at them and involved in running them. If your stuff is fandom-based, then it's comic-con-type circles you'd want to be in. I don't know how easy it is to get involved with SDCC, but it would be pretty easy to sign up to help out here.)

The Mikey wrote:

The main hipster friends in question didn't start out as hipsters, actually. But these friends in question can be very clique-y and even if they do invite me to outings, I feel really out of place. One of my main hipster friends moved to Seattle to go to school and she had her going away party in a little hipster shop that was closed for the night, it was neato, but definitely not my scene. I'm too normal to be a hipster despite the inclinations, because I too read as a hipster for some. My boss asked me once if I was a hipster.

OK, I think this is one of those things where what's preventing you fitting in is that you're so worried about fitting in that you inhibit yourself. I feel really out of place in all of those sorts of situations (art openings, theatre performances, parties, meetups, etc). It's not because I really don't fit in - I think I actually "fit in" really well in those contexts. I'm just shy and uncomfortable, and I'm a bit reserved. So the way I stop being as uncomfortable and shy is I go out and practice it and sit with the discomfort and chat with people anyway. I don't necessarily have all the same hobbies as the other people I'm with, or do them all the same way, but that seems to be common to any kind of gathering with any kind of group, hipster or other.

Hipsters are pretty normal, especially since "hipster" is actually mostly a perjorative. It doesn't actually mean much of anything. So there's enough variety within "hipsters" that being a little bit different is probably not much of an issue. They are all a little different from each other anyway, it's just hard to notice how if you're reading them as a group.

If your particular group of hipster friends, though, are particularly cliquey and exclusionary, then ... that sucks. I don't know your friends, so I can't say for sure that they actually don't care and that all you need to do to fit in is act like you have a right to be there*, but as someone who also feels out of place often, I generally think what I'm attributing to not fitting in is actually attributable to "I'm just uncomfortable in this type of situation, so I can work on my comfort level". That doesn't mean you have to make yourself exactly like them, just that being exactly like them may not actually be even remotely required, and they may not be exactly like what you think they are (or at least, all of them may not be exactly like what you think they are).
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Post by Spiffo on Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:23 pm

The Mikey wrote:Would that be considered flirty? I dunno, I tend to ask myself some of these questions because this is just me being silly and having a good time with girls I know. I have a faint idea of this *possibly* being flirty behavior but I don't really know.

I'm not really sure what you're asking. You were talking about flirting with women and making a move, and liquor helping you with that, but being afraid of looking like a scumbag? I'm saying that you get a lot of leeway as long as you act in good faith and respect people's boundaries.

You're the best judge of what's appropriate with people you're friends with. I'm talking more about parties and bars (don't start hitting on people at the pharmacy of course)
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Post by Guest on Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:41 am

kath wrote:
I think that''s one of those things that could be flirty, or could just be friendly. I think since she knows you know she has a boyfriend, she probably just assumed you were being friendly - which you were! I think this was more building general rapport than flirting with intent to ask-out. You might meet someone you wanted to ask out and do this kind of thing with them to build a generally good rapport, and then also do things that are a little more romantic in nature. Have you read the DNL blog articles about flirting? What were the sticking points there?

And yes, it was a friendly teasing kind of thing. Because, I'll be honest, she'd get a lot of shit at work and we kinda bonded sorta over the summer at work putting in power strips in the lab a few times but never really hung out much outside of work except for when we went to lunch once. I could tell she needed a buddy/a hug/a high-five at times and on Sunday morning she messages me on Facebook asking if I was busy that day and if I wanted to hangout. I agreed and we chilled at Balboa Park and took her to get noodles, fun times. Grin

I have read those but I couldn't really make heads or tails of 'em, unfortunately. I'm beginning to think everyone has their own brand of flirting, I guess, I still haven't really found mine but it does I think involve some forms of touching in the form of soft and gentle poking which I can turn up and make an innuendo out of if I so choose. Prolly a bad idea/strategy, but it's how I do. D:

As for sticking points? I read the Doc's explanation of what it IS flirting and he makes it sound so abstract/nebulous. I re-read his How to Flirt entry and it seems like I do some of this stuff instinctively, but he talks about "pushing and pulling", wtf does that even mean?

kath wrote:
(I actually think you might really fit in with some groups that contain some people you would read as hipster, so that's why I'm pushing on that and not just saying "meh, then avoid that type of event". There are craft fairs in my city and I think if I wanted to like get my digital painting prints business off the ground - and my subject matter wasn't fandom - them I would probably want to do it via those craft fairs, which have a high proportion of hipster-reading people at them and involved in running them. If your stuff is fandom-based, then it's comic-con-type circles you'd want to be in. I don't know how easy it is to get involved with SDCC, but it would be pretty easy to sign up to help out here.)

:0

Do I really come off as a hipster... ? How can you tell? I ask because I've never actually legitimately thought of myself like that, nor do I dress like a hipster. The closest I get to being hipster is how I cut my hair and how badly I want a curly mustache. Razz Plus I've volunteered with SDCC a few times and I'm TRYING to get on SDCC Staff this year for their Film Festival. D:

kath wrote:
OK, I think this is one of those things where what's preventing you fitting in is that you're so worried about fitting in that you inhibit yourself. I feel really out of place in all of those sorts of situations (art openings, theatre performances, parties, meetups, etc). It's not because I really don't fit in - I think I actually "fit in" really well in those contexts. I'm just shy and uncomfortable, and I'm a bit reserved. So the way I stop being as uncomfortable and shy is I go out and practice it and sit with the discomfort and chat with people anyway. I don't necessarily have all the same hobbies as the other people I'm with, or do them all the same way, but that seems to be common to any kind of gathering with any kind of group, hipster or other.

I do that rather well at normal outings/gatherings/parties/where people roam. I'm no extrovert, no, but I can indeed talk to people. The thing about hanging out with hipsters tho, is I feel like they're judging everyone based on what they listen to, to what they drink, to what use to shoot pictures and maybe even to god knows what else.

kath wrote:
If your particular group of hipster friends, though, are particularly cliquey and exclusionary, then ... that sucks. I don't know your friends, so I can't say for sure that they actually don't care and that all you need to do to fit in is act like you have a right to be there*, but as someone who also feels out of place often, I generally think what I'm attributing to not fitting in is actually attributable to "I'm just uncomfortable in this type of situation, so I can work on my comfort level". That doesn't mean you have to make yourself exactly like them, just that being exactly like them may not actually be even remotely required, and they may not be exactly like what you think they are (or at least, all of them may not be exactly like what you think they are).

Warning: Mikey ranting about stupidity ahead, proceed with caution

Spoiler:

There's really only two friends in question that are BFFs that are exclusionary and cliquey. They've gone to Seattle (gag me now pls) to go be hipsters and drink their gluten-free coffee or whatever. What pisses me off about them the most is that they won't do shit without the other or are always "tired" but are actually hanging out with their other hipster friends and posting photos about that later on Facebook, it's kind of insulting. Plus they never answer their fucking texts unless it's their hipster friends either.

They're nice when they wanna be, but at the same time... Idk, one of them got butthurt over the fact that they weren't personally invited to see The Two Towers with some of us (even though she KNOWS she's always welcome to join any of us) and have a Middle-Earth-y. Yes, I made the commentary, which I had followed up with, "You're more than welcome to join, I'm sure $organizingFriendName wouldn't mind".

But naaaah, instead we got a long winded Facebook message about how we shouldn't mention shit to anyone that isn't invited to and we shouldn't invite people to things that they may not enjoy. My eyes rolled so far I thought they would make a full 360 pass, yeah well you and other $otherHipsteryFriend do shit without us all the gorram time and NEVER invite anybody that isn't your hipster friends.

Spiffo wrote:
I'm not really sure what you're asking. You were talking about flirting with women and making a move, and liquor helping you with that, but being afraid of looking like a scumbag? I'm saying that you get a lot of leeway as long as you act in good faith and respect people's boundaries.

You're the best judge of what's appropriate with people you're friends with. I'm talking more about parties and bars (don't start hitting on people at the pharmacy of course)

I was asking if the way I behaved with my co-worker friend was flirty at all, I wouldn't want to give her (or anyone who was hitched) that impression because I like her, sure, but I don't wanna cross any boundaries unintentionally or give her any wrong ideas about my intentions (there were none). Although I was confused as to why she was chillin' alone that day and/or chose to hangout with me instead of her boyfriend, but I guess she likes going out by herself (which I do on occasion too). -shrug-

The only time I was really confused was when I was chillin' with one of my D&D friends and as we were leaving the parking lot to get to a museum she clung/wrapped onto my arm. I didn't mind, I liked the attention/affection but girls don't cling to my arm like that, especially when I know for a fact that they have a boyfriend (also in Seattle).

And that shit is also frustrating as hell.

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Post by Spiffo on Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:09 pm

The Mikey wrote:I was asking if the way I behaved with my co-worker friend was flirty at all, I wouldn't want to give her (or anyone who was hitched) that impression because I like her, sure, but I don't wanna cross any boundaries unintentionally or give her any wrong ideas about my intentions (there were none). Although I was confused as to why she was chillin' alone that day and/or chose to hangout with me instead of her boyfriend, but I guess she likes going out by herself (which I do on occasion too). -shrug-
I'd say it's kind of flirty, but a friendly-flirty way that's usually cool between friends because it doesn't really mean anything. You're right, the way people use the word is pretty nebulous.
The only time I was really confused was when I was chillin' with one of my D&D friends and as we were leaving the parking lot to get to a museum she clung/wrapped onto my arm. I didn't mind, I liked the attention/affection but girls don't cling to my arm like that, especially when I know for a fact that they have a boyfriend (also in Seattle).

And that shit is also frustrating as hell.
This is weird and not cool though and definitely more than friendly flirty (on her part). I don't know what's going on in her head but it's sounding sketchy.
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Post by Guest on Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:39 pm

Spiffo wrote:
This is weird and not cool though and definitely more than friendly flirty (on her part). I don't know what's going on in her head but it's sounding sketchy.

It was definitely a mixed-signal, maybe I'm sure that's how she shows her affection towards me since I've known her for awhile. Honestly, that was the second time we hung out too even though I've known her for a couple of years, we never really chilled outside of D&D.

It's funny because when I first met her she always stuck to me, so I thought that was sweet.

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Post by reboot on Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:45 pm

The Mikey wrote:
Spiffo wrote:
This is weird and not cool though and definitely more than friendly flirty (on her part). I don't know what's going on in her head but it's sounding sketchy.

It was definitely a mixed-signal, maybe I'm sure that's how she shows her affection towards me since I've known her for awhile. Honestly, that was the second time we hung out too even though I've known her for a couple of years, we never really chilled outside of D&D.

It's funny because when I first met her she always stuck to me, so I thought that was sweet.

Some people are just exuberantly physically affectionate. If this is how she was pre boyfriend and how she has always been with you I would call it just friendly. I have a few friends that are like that, single, dating, married, does not matter. They roll huggy and kissy no matter what.

Now if it makes you uncomfortable you can ask her to check herself and that would be totally OK.
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Post by Guest on Tue Nov 25, 2014 2:19 pm

It was the first time she was that physical with me in particular. When I said she'd stick to me, I meant that she'd follow me around sometimes in the room and always awkwardly make small talk with me when we first met. I thought it was cute. Razz

And trust me, I have absolutely no problems with her being physical at all. :3

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Post by kath on Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:17 am

The Mikey wrote:
As for sticking points? I read the Doc's explanation of what it IS flirting and he makes it sound so abstract/nebulous. I re-read his How to Flirt entry and it seems like I do some of this stuff instinctively, but he talks about "pushing and pulling", wtf does that even mean?
Well, he says what it means in the post. Giving mixed signals. There's a paragraph of examples. I'm not 100% sure it's something I'd want to incorporate into my flirting routine, if I had it - but I hate teasing, so I wouldn't include that one either.

Given the definition (http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2011/08/how-to-flirt/):

DNL wrote:
Pushing and pulling in a flirting context is a matter of balance; giving something and taking it away at the same time. It’s a teasing insult followed by a compliment, or a compliment followed by a disqualifier. The effect is a little like a kitten with a string; you dangle the complement within reach, then pull it back. End result: the kitten becomes more determined to catch the string. So it goes with flirting.

And the examples:

DNL wrote:
“You’re the coolest person I’ve met… at this bar, anyway.” “Holy crap, you really are such a nerd, it’s adorable!” “It’s a shame you seem like a nice person, you’re giving me the most inappropriate ideas.” “You’re awesome, I never meet people like you; get away from me, I just can’t talk to you.” “We’re never going to get along, we’re too similar.”

What about that doesn't make sense? I'm asking because I think figuring that out - exactly what the sticking point is - would help.

(I think  “It’s a shame you seem like a nice person, you’re giving me the most inappropriate ideas.” is the one that would be the easiest to deploy, if you were in a situation where being that sexual wouldn't be offputting. I think “We’re never going to get along, we’re too similar.” would also not be super difficult to use well. To me, all of these are little bit too pat, but I am sure that's not a universal opinion.)


The Mikey wrote:I ask because I've never actually legitimately thought of myself like that, nor do I dress like a hipster. The closest I get to being hipster is how I cut my hair and how badly I want a curly mustache.

No one thinks of themselves as a hipster.  It's a label made up by people who aren't hipsters to link together something that I'm sure is a real thing (being extremely ironic about everything so that you don't have to be honest about what you like) - which I'm sure is a real phenomenon, but I don't think it's unique to millennials. Then it gets applied to anyone who shares an aesthetic with the people other people called hipsters. So sorry man, but if your hair is even remotely hipstery, someone is probably thinking you're a hipster and will be judgemental about them.

The Mikey wrote:
I do that rather well at normal outings/gatherings/parties/where people roam. I'm no extrovert, no, but I can indeed talk to people.
I am an extrovert and as I said, I find those outings uncomfortable.

The Mikey wrote:
The thing about hanging out with hipsters tho, is I feel like they're judging everyone based on what they listen to, to what they drink, to what use to shoot pictures and maybe even to god knows what else.

Why do you feel this way?

Do you feel this way because you friends say things that are judgmental about others? Do you hear their friends doing it? Do they do so at a higher frequency than people you would not consider hipsters?

If they are judgmental and say judgmental things about others, then it's not a feeling you have - it's a fact of their behavior, and you should avoid them.

If you're connecting the part of the definition of hipster that is "likes things ironically so everyone else must also like everything ironically or they are lame" and extending that to people who meet the aesthetic definition ... then that's actually great, because your friends aren't jerks, and you can just keep hanging out with them and stop worrying that they are judging you.

But please base this on observation of their behavior, not on the fact that you lump them in with hipsters.

I won't quote your spoiler, but, er ...


  • So you hate Seattle? ... because hipsters?
  • You do realise that being a games / comics / digital art nerd has a lot of things in common with being a coffee nerd, right?
  • OK, it's kinda a pain that they are attached at the hip ... but I don't see how it's judgmental? Just don't hang out with them! Unless you like really want to hang out with one of them one-on-one or something?
  • I get that you feel excluded and that sucks ... but they aren't required to include you in all the things. Also if you've talked about your opinion of hipsters, maybe they don't think you'd like going out to events they want to go to.
  • aren't you doing exactly what you accuse your friend of doing? Being mad that you don't get invited to stuff with them?
  • I think this type of behavior is common among people who have different friend groups and who aren't the best communicators. I don't think it's unique to "hipsters".



If you find them that irritating, there is a simple solution. Do not be friends with them. That is two hipsters that are now not even in your immediate circle because they moved away. I don't see how they were relevant to social circles at which you could meet people. If they were the only hipster friends, why did you list that as a possibility that you weren't pursuing, since you don't actually have access to that possibility? If you have other "hipster" friends, why is their behavior, given that they have moved away, relevant to whether you want to go to events with the other "hipster" friends who don't act that way?
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Post by Guest on Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:32 pm

kath wrote:
DNL wrote:
Pushing and pulling in a flirting context is a matter of balance; giving something and taking it away at the same time. It’s a teasing insult followed by a compliment, or a compliment followed by a disqualifier. The effect is a little like a kitten with a string; you dangle the complement within reach, then pull it back. End result: the kitten becomes more determined to catch the string. So it goes with flirting.

I can't seem to grasp the idea of pushing and pulling back in an abstract way. I sorta get it, but I don't understand how to apply it without coming off as an asshole. The metaphor with the kitty sounds a little odd.


kath wrote:
DNL wrote:
“You’re the coolest person I’ve met… at this bar, anyway.” “Holy crap, you really are such a nerd, it’s adorable!” “It’s a shame you seem like a nice person, you’re giving me the most inappropriate ideas.” “You’re awesome, I never meet people like you; get away from me, I just can’t talk to you.” “We’re never going to get along, we’re too similar.”

What about that doesn't make sense? I'm asking because I think figuring that out - exactly what the sticking point is - would help.

(I think  “It’s a shame you seem like a nice person, you’re giving me the most inappropriate ideas.” is the one that would be the easiest to deploy, if you were in a situation where being that sexual wouldn't be offputting. I think “We’re never going to get along, we’re too similar.” would also not be super difficult to use well. To me, all of these are little bit too pat, but I am sure that's not a universal opinion.)

Some of that just sounds like me naturally being silly. I feel like maybe if I wanted to get flirtier/interested what I say needs to be upped. Unfortunately, I don't think I'm in a lot of places/situations where I can be sexual much, if anything that tends to be off putting to some. And idk how well received that would be.

kath wrote:
No one thinks of themselves as a hipster.  It's a label made up by people who aren't hipsters to link together something that I'm sure is a real thing (being extremely ironic about everything so that you don't have to be honest about what you like) - which I'm sure is a real phenomenon, but I don't think it's unique to millennials. Then it gets applied to anyone who shares an aesthetic with the people other people called hipsters. So sorry man, but if your hair is even remotely hipstery, someone is probably thinking you're a hipster and will be judgemental about them.

And that's fine, the ony reason I wear my hair that way is because it looks good on me lol.

kath wrote:
Why do you feel this way?

Do you feel this way because you friends say things that are judgmental about others? Do you hear their friends doing it? Do they do so at a higher frequency than people you would not consider hipsters?

If they are judgmental and say judgmental things about others, then it's not a feeling you have - it's a fact of their behavior, and you should avoid them.

They're pretentious, so unnecessarily pretentious from what I've gathered. There are a few who're definitely down to Earth and chill and I'd hangout with of my own accord.

kath wrote:
I won't quote your spoiler, but, er ...


  • So you hate Seattle? ... because hipsters?
  • You do realise that being a games / comics / digital art nerd has a lot of things in common with being a coffee nerd, right?
  • OK, it's kinda a pain that they are attached at the hip ... but I don't see how it's judgmental? Just don't hang out with them! Unless you like really want to hang out with one of them one-on-one or something?
  • I get that you feel excluded and that sucks ... but they aren't required to include you in all the things. Also if you've talked about your opinion of hipsters, maybe they don't think you'd like going out to events they want to go to.
  • aren't you doing exactly what you accuse your friend of doing? Being mad that you don't get invited to stuff with them?
  • I think this type of behavior is common among people who have different friend groups and who aren't the best communicators. I don't think it's unique to "hipsters".



I don't actually hate Seattle, I'm sure it's a great place. I just hate when people I know/care for shit on my hometown/state for no real reason other than it's not $town, $state in $city or $country. Have some pride for fucks sake, even just a little. So I say, if you don't like San Diego, leave and don't come back.

Same with being a beer nerd, so ya got me there.

What's annoying is, we actually enjoy their company, regardless of which of the two join us but no, they discard us like tissues. Like we don't exist.

If they don't wanna invite us, fine, that's cool; but don't fucking lie to our faces about it is the problem.

And no, not being invited isn't what I'm mad about. Like I said, if I'm not invited because I'm not cool enough or $thing, fine whatever, that's not what I'm mad about. I'm mad about being lied to, and I'm not referring to only myself, but my group of friends.

And poor communicators is right, they're terrible at communicating what's going on and never answer their phones or texts ever.

kath wrote:
If you find them that irritating, there is a simple solution. Do not be friends with them. That is two hipsters that are now not even in your immediate circle because they moved away. I don't see how they were relevant to social circles at which you could meet people. If they were the only hipster friends, why did you list that as a possibility that you weren't pursuing, since you don't actually have access to that possibility? If you have other "hipster" friends, why is their behavior, given that they have moved away, relevant to whether you want to go to events with the other "hipster" friends who don't act that way?

They were the gateway to the OTHER potential group of hipster friends. Their circle was another circle, I was invited to one of their going away parties. I attended because I'm gewd guy, but I felt more invisible than anything else. See, I'm not a fan of cutting off appendages that are still fully functional, but in this case, this particular appendage has a bad case of gangrene. And they're coming back BTW one is in Seattle and the other is in San Francisco.

I dunno.

Anyway, all I know is I'm back at square one with no idea what to do. Pink Floyd had it right, all in all, the more I think about it the more this, it just becomes another brick in the wall. I hate it.

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