Some last moment pre-second date thoughts

[Gman]

Hey all, decided to log in here again after a long while because I feel conflicted and I just want to vent it out a bit and not carry it with me tonight, maybe also get a bit of suggestions/tips.
So tonight I am about to go on a second date with someone I met online... it is the first second date ever since I broke with my ex 2 years ago.

I'll bring here a TL;DR version of the first date: It was a kind of coffee date, I find her attractive, she was very talkative (in a good way), seemed to laugh from stuff I said, we have a good connection in general. Also, later this week we talked on the phone for like 10 minutes, which I think is a lot. She also sent me a personal photo from her youth (as a continuation of a conversation we had in the first date) so I think that's a good sign that she feels really comfortable with me to send me private images like that.

So my thought about the second date is obvious - just have a good time like the last one was. However this time I also want to try and see if I can communicate some basic physical contact as well: high-fives, playful pushes and maybe even hold hands if it feels appropriate to the situation and context and if I am feeling a positive vibe from her. However, when I presented it to my therapist, she told me to "keep an open mind" and also think about "holding back on the physical stuff", because it might be seen by the other side in a not so positive manner as I see it and thus maybe ruin the potential of the relationship developing. At first I got angry at her and told her that if I don't show ANY physical signs, she might think I'm not interested in her romantically and cut things herself. But then it got me wondering and questioning my entire feelings about the date.... Also, I feel that physical contact is EXTREMELY important for me and if these things will make her uncomfortable and not want to continue things with me.... well, then that's her loss. I feel that it is an essential part of how I communicate and if this is a deal breaker then maybe it's for the best because that means we are simply incompatible on that level.

What do you guys think about this? Hopefully I can get some feedback BEFORE the date happening tonight.

P.S. UPDATE - well as I was typing in this post SHE called ME and asked about the meetup tonight, so there is another positive sign, which strengthens my opinion that she is most likely interested and that having just A BIT physical contact would probably be alright with her at the minimum.

[BasedBuzzed]

You can always ask about it (hug after the date, f. ex.). Or you can go for a situation in which the touch barrier is broken in a more artificial fashion (you know the basics of dancing, right? It's an ideal segue). Or you can make up an anecdote about you been ticklish and see if she breaks the touch barrier for you (it helps if you really are ticklish). You can also just go for your plan, see that she reacts uncomfortably, and then dial it down until she initiates. Trust me, she won't instantly implode if you gauge it wrong. Also, never do a German supplex during playwrestling.

In short, keep the frame that she's not a landmine waiting to go off, mistakes can be corrected and if it doesn't work out because of this, it is because of incompatibility, not because you did something wrong. Unless you did the German supplex.

[Gman]

You can always ask about it (hug after the date, f. ex.). Or you can go for a situation in which the touch barrier is broken in a more artificial fashion (you know the basics of dancing, right? It's an ideal segue). Or you can make up an anecdote about you been ticklish and see if she breaks the touch barrier for you (it helps if you really are ticklish). You can also just go for your plan, see that she reacts uncomfortably, and then dial it down until she initiates. Trust me, she won't instantly implode if you gauge it wrong. Also, never do a German supplex during playwrestling.

In short, keep the frame that she's not a landmine waiting to go off, mistakes can be corrected and if it doesn't work out because of this, it is because of incompatibility, not because you did something wrong. Unless you did the German supplex.

Thanks for the tips. I actually did think about dancing, but all the places I go to have a lot of women that already know me there and thus expect me to dance with them and I don't want to have that awkward situation where I "leave" my date for a dance or two, because I don't want to look like a snob to the others just because I'm on a date.... maybe if I can find a situation where I can go "hey, I can show you how to dance X" and then proceed from there, just the two of us.

Also, I don't know what a "German supplex" is and I'm afraid to google that term

[BasedBuzzed]

In such a case, "thanks, but I'm on a date, but I'll gladly dance with you next time" should be sufficient, since even if she would be familiar with the atmosphere of the dancing world, a date is about you two. But perhaps the social rules are different within bacchata. Also, German supplex is a wrestling move, perfectly SFW (though you might still get fired if you try it at work ): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVs7-uFLYuY

[KMR]

I agree with BasedBuzzed that the kind of light touching you're planning shouldn't be a big deal, so long as you are aware of her reaction and adjust accordingly. Given that physical touch is really important to you, it makes sense to test these waters early on, and I think a second date can be an appropriate time for that.

In case it helps to have an example, this is the progression of physical touch that I am personally comfortable with in the early stages of dating (with the standard disclaimer that all women are different and that my preferences may or may not be typical of the average woman*):
First date - No physical contact other than the standard hug goodbye at the end of the date. I'm personally just never comfortable enough with someone that early on, even if the date goes really well and I already know I'm interested in a second one.
Second date - If things are going well, I'm open to some light physical touch in the latter half of the date (hand on back or arm around shoulder, holding hands, possibly even a kiss goodbye at the end of the date), but I don't necessarily expect it. I don't interpret lack of physical touch at this stage to be a sign of disinterest; I've found it just as likely to be a sign of nervousness or wanting to play it safe or the guy not being comfortable enough around me yet, so I'm not concerned if it doesn't happen, so long as the guy is showing other signs of interest (like wanting a third date).
Third date - This is the point at which I typically expect a clear physical sign of interest and, ideally, a kiss at least by the end of the date. If that doesn't happen, I start to wonder whether the guy is truly interested, but since nervousness is still a possible factor (especially with the kinds of guys I've typically dated in the past, who were fairly inexperienced), I'll probably just straight up ask about it at that point. If a kiss already happened, either at the end of date 2 or during date 3, I'd be open to making out at this point, if we have the opportunity to be alone somewhere.

*If I had to guess, I'd say I might be a little on the slow side and maybe more likely to give the benefit of the doubt to guys who don't initiate physical contact early on, at least in the context of American culture. I don't know what the cultural norms for this stuff are like in Israel.


I have some more general thoughts/questions/reflections on physical touch, but since they go beyond your immediate situation and I don't want to accidentally overwhelm you right before your date, I'll hold off and let you decide if/when you might want me to discuss it.

[Gman]

Well, thanks for your opinion KMR, but I have seen your post after the date itself.

So to be honest, I'm just not sure what's going on. We sat a this really cool bar and just talked... about all sorts of things and that felt really good. Just like the last date, she mostly talked, but I also got to share a few things about me as well. I felt the conversation was really deep, that I got to know why she loves what she does, what are her ambitions and such. So on that par, I had a very good time. She also was looking quite attractive and seemed to dress well for the ocation. But on the other.... once again, almost zero physical contact. The only time there was anything at all was when we were sitting at the bus stop waiting for her bus to arrive, I sat close to her side and while I didn't think she was uncomfortable with that I just felt like she didn't really care either way to much.... I don't know.

Add to that that my body had a "mini freakout" when we were walking towards the bus stop and I started to shake quite a bit....... at first I thought I was cold and such and so I laughed it off like that, but later when I was walking on my own down the street I didn't flinch even one bit.... so I think my body had a "mini-freakout" for some reason and I'm really worried about that.

So when I said goodbye I told her "then we'll talk on Friday" (after asking her what she's doing later this week) and hugged goodbye and that's that. So I'm hoping that she's more like you KMR, but my gut feeling is telling me that while it was basically a "good" date (for me at least), I'm still a little worried that she thinks I'm not interested/insecure and such.

[Wondering]

I would definitely up the contact to something low stakes but definitely more romantic for the next date, then. Like holding hands. (Unless people who are just friends hold hands where you are. That's pretty much just a romantic thing in the US.)

I was starting to wonder toward the middle of the second date with my husband if he had more than friendly interest, but he gave me a peck on the cheek at the end of the date, so that settled that. Third date and no romantic contact would make me pretty certain a guy wasn't interested romantically.

[Gman]

Well............ there is nothing that feels worse than how I feel right now......
Tried calling today, rang only a real bit before going to voicemail (much shorter than usual, makes me think I was screened)..... then tried 2 hours later to text a simple hey and it's been over an hour and no response.............. so yeah

I feel humiliated. I just can't understand how time and time again I manage to screw myself over like this
It's especially disheartening that it was a second date and I thought that we were having some good chemistry, at least emotionally wise…..
To say that I feel like a sad sack of shit is an understatement right now. Hopefully going out to a regular dance place of mine will help cheer up my mood, I hope.

[Wondering]

So, first, don't keep contacting her until she responds. You've already called and texted without a response.

Second, she easily may just be busy, sleeping, a lot of other things. An hour isn't that long a time.

[Gman]

Well, false alarm everyone

I was in such a rush to determine it was over, when she finally responded. Decided that this time enough is enough and suggested to go dance salsa. She wrote that she is hesitant but she is willing to give it a shot.
So we just agreed to meetup this Saturday evening at this new salsa place (where I was only once so I don't really know anyone, except for a few veteran dancers that like to show up almost anywhere there is Salsa LOL). I think that this time, we will be focused with each other mostly. How will I handle other people wanting to dance with me though.......... or the other way around (if someone asks her to dance and such - because I will be ok with it because I'm familiar with the norms of the scene, but she might see it as another confusing sign or something) well, I'll guess I'll have to tell them I'm on a date and such. Still trying to figure this one out, but hopefully we'll be there just for the lesson, have a few dances and then continue onwards from there someplace else.

[KMR]

So we just agreed to meetup this Saturday evening at this new salsa place (where I was only once so I don't really know anyone, except for a few veteran dancers that like to show up almost anywhere there is Salsa LOL). I think that this time, we will be focused with each other mostly. How will I handle other people wanting to dance with me though.......... or the other way around (if someone asks her to dance and such - because I will be ok with it because I'm familiar with the norms of the scene, but she might see it as another confusing sign or something) well, I'll guess I'll have to tell them I'm on a date and such. Still trying to figure this one out, but hopefully we'll be there just for the lesson, have a few dances and then continue onwards from there someplace else.

I think it could be helpful to talk to her in advance about the possibilities that you or she might be asked to dance. When my boyfriend took me ballroom dancing for the first time, a few of the instructors there asked me to dance and I was completely unprepared for it. I very awkwardly declined, because I was way too nervous about the idea of dancing with anyone other than my boyfriend at this point (mostly because I had no idea how I was expected to do anything when I knew almost none of the dance steps yet). Knowing in advance that this might come up could help your date decide whether she might be comfortable dancing with someone else and, if not, to prepare a script for declining the invitation.

Similarly, with regard to someone asking you to dance, it might be good to know whether she feels comfortable with it or not. When other women asked my boyfriend to dance, he would always turn to me and ask if it would be alright for him to do so. It was a nice gesture that showed he was thinking about my feelings, and it worked out fine because I had no issue with him dancing with others from time to time, so long as I wasn't being left alone for too long... but on the other hand, if I'd had a problem with it, I certainly wouldn't have felt comfortable voicing those concerns in front of someone else (since that seems kind of rude), so I technically had no other options but to say that I was okay with it in the moment. So if you talk it out ahead of time, just the two of you, you can find out her feelings on the matter and know in advance whether you can accept a few dance invitations or else prepare your, "No thanks, I'm on a date" script.

[Gman]

So we just agreed to meetup this Saturday evening at this new salsa place (where I was only once so I don't really know anyone, except for a few veteran dancers that like to show up almost anywhere there is Salsa LOL). I think that this time, we will be focused with each other mostly. How will I handle other people wanting to dance with me though.......... or the other way around (if someone asks her to dance and such - because I will be ok with it because I'm familiar with the norms of the scene, but she might see it as another confusing sign or something) well, I'll guess I'll have to tell them I'm on a date and such. Still trying to figure this one out, but hopefully we'll be there just for the lesson, have a few dances and then continue onwards from there someplace else.

I think it could be helpful to talk to her in advance about the possibilities that you or she might be asked to dance. When my boyfriend took me ballroom dancing for the first time, a few of the instructors there asked me to dance and I was completely unprepared for it. I very awkwardly declined, because I was way too nervous about the idea of dancing with anyone other than my boyfriend at this point (mostly because I had no idea how I was expected to do anything when I knew almost none of the dance steps yet). Knowing in advance that this might come up could help your date decide whether she might be comfortable dancing with someone else and, if not, to prepare a script for declining the invitation.

Similarly, with regard to someone asking you to dance, it might be good to know whether she feels comfortable with it or not. When other women asked my boyfriend to dance, he would always turn to me and ask if it would be alright for him to do so. It was a nice gesture that showed he was thinking about my feelings, and it worked out fine because I had no issue with him dancing with others from time to time, so long as I wasn't being left alone for too long... but on the other hand, if I'd had a problem with it, I certainly wouldn't have felt comfortable voicing those concerns in front of someone else (since that seems kind of rude), so I technically had no other options but to say that I was okay with it in the moment. So if you talk it out ahead of time, just the two of you, you can find out her feelings on the matter and know in advance whether you can accept a few dance invitations or else prepare your, "No thanks, I'm on a date" script.

Well, the way I see it is to keep things light and minimal and avoid going into my "salsa mode", which I do on an almost automatic level now - remind myself that this is a date and that my focus should be on being her when I'm there with her and to avoid dancing with others, especially when she says she's hestitant about it and she feels she'll be too awkward and such. The last thing I want to do is to make her feel extremley awkward and confused and such and thus potentially ruin any attraction I have built so far. Many times I see these couples who come in for a quick lesson (and they stay strictly with each other the whole time), dance a song or two and then leave the place, so it's not something that I haven't seen before and to be honest, most people don't really care either way, due to the fact that there are plenty of other people to dance with anyway.

[KMR]

That makes sense and sounds like a good strategy. I guess I was imagining a scenario where you're there for an extended period of time, but if that's not the case, then it shouldn't be an issue.

[Gman]

So guess my gut instinct from before was right.... because she just texted and told me that she thought about it alot and she doesn't think that we would get along and wishing me good luck in the future
I'd have to say that at least I don't feel like the 2 dates I did have with her so far were a waste of time - they weren't at all, which makes this failure that much more painfull

[Hirundo Bos]

Don't know if it helps a lot, but not matching with someone does not necessarily have to count as a failure... there are so many reasons for that that no one can control. Probably won't make it less painful, though

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